What synthetic oil?

[Dave_Trible]

I have long used Klotz synthetic oils with good success however the red color wreaks havoc with white or yellow dope on the airplanes leaving a rosy pink stain.  I know there are clear synthetic oils which can be used instead...what are they and where can I get them? 

Dave

[Robert Zambelli]

Dave - I use Lucas two stroke oil. I’ve never seen staining on my OTS plane.

[Jared Hays]

Randy Ritch in Texas is where I get my clear synthetic oil and Nitro from. Randy’s hobbies is his hobby shop, Ritch’s Brew is his customs mixed fuels side.

http://www.ritchsbrew.com/rb.html

[Dave_Trible]

Randy Ritch in Texas is where I get my clear synthetic oil and Nitro from. Randy’s hobbies is his hobby shop, Ritch’s Brew is his customs mixed fuels side.

http://www.ritchsbrew.com/rb.html

Thanks Jared.  I sent an inquiry to them.

Dave

[Dave_Trible]

Dave - I use Lucas two stroke oil. I’ve never seen staining on my OTS plane.

Bob they apparently have several different types-which do you use?  You mentioned OTS-ignition?

Dave

[Alexey Gorbunov]

Castor 927. 15-16%. Without castor oil.

[Dave_Trible]

Thank you for the info.  They say this is a castor based (ultra refined ) castor with additives.  Not sure exactly if that means synthetic or just what.  VP sells a synthetic- red color just like Technoplate....their fuel is clear...

[Dave_Trible]

I'm beginning to wonder if there has been too much ado about synthetic oils.  My flying partner found an article that while long,  is very informative and pretty convincing about limiting or eliminating it.  I might just try a mix with no more than 2-3 % synthetic just to help keep the engines clean.  I'm not savvy about pasting stuff but others can find it at  :  adriansmodelaeroengines.com  entitled " All about oil".

Dave

[Robert Zambelli]

Hi, Dave.
This is the Lucas two-stroke oil I’ve been using for the last ten years.
Note that it’s a semi-synthetic (whatever that means).
It has a blue tint to it but I have never witnessed any staining.
I mix my fuel 12.5% Lucas/12.5% castor/75% gasoline. The proportions are not exact but I always try to keep the total lube at around 25%.
As I mentioned, I use that fuel mixture for my spark ignition engines. I really can’t say if the blue tint would react differently with a glow fuel mixture.
Most of my spark ignition flying has been done with my Viking, powered by an OK Super 60. The engine runs better and starts more easily with the Lucas mixture than it did with straight castor. Never a sign of wear with either oils. The compression is still like new.
Bob Z.

[Air Ministry .]

The 50 or so years of development mean theyrenot as useless as some of the early efforts were .

[Reptoid]

Thank you for the info.  They say this is a castor based (ultra refined ) castor with additives.  Not sure exactly if that means synthetic or just what.  VP sells a synthetic- red color just like Technoplate....their fuel is clear...

Maxima 927 is 60% castor and 40% synthetic. That VP synthetic is for gasoline fuels. It will not mix with Methanol. It is used in their "Small Engine (gasoline) two stroke fuel".  VP has repeatedly refused to sell any model engine fuel ingredients for methanol/nitro based fuels. When Don Nix started Powermaster in CA years ago I used to buy ingredients from him regularly. Since he was bought out by VP they won't sell even the oil (Which is clear). Klotz sells their oil without the red dye, but only in 55 gallon drums to commercial fuel blenders.
    You can buy the clear oil from Randy at Ritch's Brew as mentioned above or you can order 62R oil from FHS. You will have to call and special order it without the red dye (The "R" in 62R stands for red)

[Brian Hampton]

I've had very good success using Mobil Jet Oil II although it has a fairly heavy brown dye. An alternative is Eastman (used to be BP) 2380 which doesn't have the dye and is used by one of our club members.

[Curare]

Is there any reason why no one has mentioned Coolpower Oils?

[Dan McEntee]

    Dave;
      If you venture away from the "normal" oils used for model fuel, make sure it will blend with methanol, as it has already been mentioned. In my motorcycle and kart racing experiences, sometimes you never know what you are getting when you buy pump gas. Even going back into the late 70's when the first brought out "gasahol" I paid attention to this. I saw several guys seize engines and a few that got DQed from a trophy when their fuel couldn't pass tech inspection because it had alcohol in it. I always ran oil that was labeled and marked "blends with ethanol". I know that wasn't model airplanes, but it still needs to be remembered. I really don't have any recommendations, other than if you can get a version of Klotz that does NOT have dye in it, I would go that route. It will solve your problem and you will still be using what you are familiar with and it's performance.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Howard Rush]

Ucon LB-625

[Brett Buck]

I'm beginning to wonder if there has been too much ado about synthetic oils.  My flying partner found an article that while long,  is very informative and pretty convincing about limiting or eliminating it.  I might just try a mix with no more than 2-3 % synthetic just to help keep the engines clean.  I'm not savvy about pasting stuff but others can find it at  :  adriansmodelaeroengines.com  entitled " All about oil".

Dave

   Unfortunately, 2-3% (with 16%-20% castor??) will not keep the engine clean, it will very slightly slow down the buildup of varnish.

  In reading around that site, I can see nothing resembling any information about any modern stunt engine, and *a lot* about diesels. Reading the article, I can see the usual "castor is safer" stuff from the 70's, but nothing about the things that might matter to us. We are running engines capable of 5 HP at 3/4 horse, dead rich, and very low RPM - but nothing about varnish reducing AAC clearances or how viscosity affects sporadic fuel draw on fixed-venturi engines, which is what matters to us.

    Obviously, you can experiment as you wish, but I could not disagree more with your plan, having done that experiment and many, many more with various fuel combinations and all the competitive ABC/AAC stunt engines of the last 30 years. If you want to keep your airplane the same color, put on some 2-part polyurethane clear down the bottom of the fuse. I have had absolutely no problem with staining using Klotz KL-198 (low-viscosity) and the current pink VP fuel, aside from the deep purple dye VP used to use.   

   By the way, one thing I do know about the dye is that whatever VP uses for synthetic contains *no* dye at all - they are adding it when mixing. Right after the 'deep purple' stage, I called their fuel guy and got a rush shipment of RO-Jett 10% that was perfectly clear. I asked him why they added the dye, he said that the helicopter guys demanded they put it in. And, they tested it for staining, no problem - on Monokote!  They can definitely make it without the dye.

      Brett

   

[Reptoid]

Is there any reason why no one has mentioned Coolpower Oils?

Coolpower synthetic oil is fine but unfortunately not that readily available in the US. You can only get quarts from a few on-line retailers and Morgan's ("manufacturer") for some reason won't sell to the public. Years ago they did. I know it's readily available in Australia so I'm sure that's why you mentioned it. I'd like it even better if they left out the green dye but I've never seen staining from the small amount they use.

[Lauri Malila]

A little off-topic, but I'd like to warn about the low-viscosity Klotz 189 Heliglo (Not the 198 Lite Techniplate that Brett mentioned).
I was very excited about it first, but after burning about 2 gallons of it this summer, I found out that it leaves a massive amount of enamel like, glass-hard residue in the plug and combustion chamber, and to top of piston & baffle. My guess is that it's coming from some anti-foam additive that helicopter people seem to love.
Some sources say that the 198 is the same oil but without or with less of that additive. But it's difficult to find reliable info.
I'd also like it without the red dye, but with a proper clear coat it's not a problem.

[Dave_Trible]

Lots of good suggestions here-  thanks to all. 
I just ordered a clear oil from FHS (thanks for that suggestion).  I couldn’t find any source for the Ucon 625 (thanks Howard) in less than 55 gallon drums plus shipping.  Still waiting for a return call or email from Ritch’s.   
Brett my current living arrangement will not allow me to use anything more dangerous than dope and an airbrush- about to change tho- moving into a new house with a very large shop and a garage very near the flying field.  I’m OK with my 50/50 oil mix as long as it doesn’t paint the airplane new colors.  Still like the castor though for good lubrication and it seems to make the engines run smoothly.  Of interest,  I just had Dub rebuild a couple of my .76s.  He found RUST inside at least one and had to polish it out.  He then honed the sleeves and put new oversized pistons in them ( So .76.5?).   Maybe the synthetic cleaned or vaporized the castor a little too well.  I may still change the oil mix ratio some and see what happens...

Dave

[Dave Harmon]

A little off-topic, but I'd like to warn about the low-viscosity Klotz 189 Heliglo (Not the 198 Lite Techniplate that Brett mentioned).
I was very excited about it first, but after burning about 2 gallons of it this summer, I found out that it leaves a massive amount of enamel like, glass-hard residue in the plug and combustion chamber, and to top of piston & baffle. My guess is that it's coming from some anti-foam additive that helicopter people seem to love.
Some sources say that the 198 is the same oil but without or with less of that additive. But it's difficult to find reliable info.
I'd also like it without the red dye, but with a proper clear coat it's not a problem.

I have some experience with Klotz KL-189.
Some years back I noticed it was leaving a sort of chalky red deposit in the engine.

Then the guys down under started screaming about 189 causing engine damaging deposits.
At that point I stopped using it....I had a couple of gallons of it but only used one of them.

A little later I bumped into John Klotz at the Pasadena California model show and I asked him about the 189 oil.
Without hesitation.....he said that there had been a technical problem with that oil and asked me how much if it I still had.
He asked for my address and asked me what oil I would prefer as free replacement. He said to toss the 189...which I did!
I went back to the original Technoplate I had been using since the mid 60's when Clarence Lee made some comments in RCM.
The replacement gallon arrived in a week or so and I never used KL-189 again.

Some of the guys in the Los Angeles area....including me....had been buying K&B X2C out the back door when K&B was still in Downey, Calif at their original location.....bring your container or buy a K&B metal can for $1 and they would fill it up for $8 per gallon.
I was living nearby at the time so I would take several gallons to contests for friends that had called.
In the end.....I still have about 4 gallons of X2C....no dye....and it works well.

A couple of years ago I had a phone conversation with Clarence and I asked him what X2C REALLY was.
He said it was UCON 1145 and to be careful with it because it burned at 430 degrees F which is lower than modern oils.
It has been discontinued for many years now and I expect I am the only dummy that still has any of it.
It works well in the GMA configuration but I have never tried it in the ROJETT.
I have some CoolPower 30% Heli fuel that I cut to 10% and add Technoplate to get it to the ROJETT blend.

Brett....I have no doubt that RO had a green deposit in the engine.....what ever is in that Mean Green stuff and 189 ain't no joke!
Bottom line.....don't use KL-189 and as soon as I use up the last of the Technoplate....KL-200 I think......then I'll change to 198.

Guys around here are using 198 with success and no red deposits.
In fact....I am 3rd owner of a ROJETT SE 61 that originally belonged to RO then sold to another guy who flew the crap out of it using 198. When I got it from him I looked inside and it was squeaky clean....no deposits.
Well....I lied...it only squeaks at TDC!

[Lauri Malila]

Thank you, Dave.
 Nice that I'm alone. I'm sure that an AAC or ABC would have been totally destroyed by the deposit, but my Dykes ring stopped it from going between piston and chrome..
Now, would anyone like to buy 3 gallons of 189?
Enclosed is some pictures of the residue. L

[Tom Luciano]

Lots of good suggestions here-  thanks to all. 
I just ordered a clear oil from FHS (thanks for that suggestion).  I couldn’t find any source for the Ucon 625 (thanks Howard) in less than 55 gallon drums plus shipping.  Still waiting for a return call or email from Ritch’s.   
Brett my current living arrangement will not allow me to use anything more dangerous than dope and an airbrush- about to change tho- moving into a new house with a very large shop and a garage very near the flying field.  I’m OK with my 50/50 oil mix as long as it doesn’t paint the airplane new colors.  Still like the castor though for good lubrication and it seems to make the engines run smoothly.  Of interest,  I just had Dub rebuild a couple of my .76s.  He found RUST inside at least one and had to polish it out.  He then honed the sleeves and put new oversized pistons in them ( So .76.5?).   Maybe the synthetic cleaned or vaporized the castor a little too well.  I may still change the oil mix ratio some and see what happens...

Dave

I heard that Ritch's has Uconn. Another source could be Henry Nelson, I bought a gallon from him a couple of years ago.

Tom

[Dave_Trible]

Tom if I hear back from them I’ll inquire.  The stuff I ordered from FHS they call 62R.  As mentioned R for red.  They are leaving the dye out for me.  Is the “62” slang for 625?  Maybe.

Dave

[Brett Buck]

A little off-topic, but I'd like to warn about the low-viscosity Klotz 189 Heliglo (Not the 198 Lite Techniplate that Brett mentioned).
I was very excited about it first, but after burning about 2 gallons of it this summer, I found out that it leaves a massive amount of enamel like, glass-hard residue in the plug and combustion chamber, and to top of piston & baffle. My guess is that it's coming from some anti-foam additive that helicopter people seem to love.
Some sources say that the 198 is the same oil but without or with less of that additive. But it's difficult to find reliable info.
I'd also like it without the red dye, but with a proper clear coat it's not a problem.

   That's extremely interesting, because Richard Oliver told me of his experiences with a particular Powermaster fuel (Powermaster Mean n'Green) using "low viscosity helicopter oil" that did something very similar, that is, deposit something hard inside the engine. It was to the point that after 4-5 flights the engine seized up and he had to, and I quote, "sand the piston" to loosen it back up again! This all sounds very similar.

   I am also very highly suspicious of anything that contains "anti-foaming agents", we have traced numerous problems to the various concoctions people put in fuel (like Armor-All or other silicone additive), and I am still questioning why I get "taters" with SIG and not with Powermaster. The only difference I know about for sure is that SIG contains anti-foaming agents and Powermaster at least doesn't claim any. Randy says its the oil, so I might just be wrong. But I also can't think of any way to do an experiment to figure it out, since we don't know what the agent is.

   Brett

[Lauri Malila]

r 4-5 flights the engine seized up and he had to, and I quote, "sand the piston" to loosen it back up

   Brett

That's easy to believe if you look at a typical AAC/ABC piston shape. All kinds of small particles like to wedge between cylinder wall and the upper conical part of piston.
It would be nice to find someone at Klotz who could actually answer questions, instead of the usual marketing blah blah you get from their chat.
Anyway, I have collected some of that residue, and I'll try to have it analysed, either by spectrum analysis or neutron microscope.
I won't use the oil anymore but I'm still curious to know what it actually is.
So the 198 doesn't cause problems, that's good news. L

[Brett Buck]

That's easy to believe if you look at a typical AAC/ABC piston shape. All kinds of small particles like to wedge between cylinder wall and the upper conical part of piston.
It would be nice to find someone at Klotz who could actually answer questions, instead of the usual marketing blah blah you get from their chat.
Anyway, I have collected some of that residue, and I'll try to have it analysed, either by spectrum analysis or neutron microscope.
I won't use the oil anymore but I'm still curious to know what it actually is.

   Yes, all these oil guys are marketers, and they always have some sort of super-secret trick that they won't tell you, but makes their oil way better than the competitors. Which means it's awfully easy to just make stuff up. Who can check it?

  Those coatings are absolutely amazing, it looks like you sprayed a heavy coat of clear paint on it. One rather large difference, in addition to the clearance differences between AAC and ringed piston, is that you must be burning the fuel at a *much higher* temperature, to get the kind of mileage you get. I am running twice the fuel through it, David is running 3x, compared to yours. We are probably running less efficient props, but not half, or 1/3, so you are getting far more energy out of a given volume of fuel, i.e. hotter.

So the 198 doesn't cause problems, that's good news. L

  Not so far, at least not in the quantities I am running it. I am also not sure how much it is, I at least suspect that the synthetic oil used in the "factory" fuel may well be KL-198, so I have 5% castor and 12% synthetic of some type, and then add small quantities of KL-198 to adjust the run. Even 1% additional oil makes a distinct difference in the run - more steady -  and 4% is like it is a different engine entirely. As you run it with a particular change, the difference becomes less distinct the longer you run it, for maybe 10-15 runs, like it is getting used to it (presumably, different deposits of whatever it leaves behind).

     Brett

[Lauri Malila]

Brett,

At the moment I use 105ml/flight, and the engine doesn't feel particularly hot after flight.
But what may be related to this issue, is that my approach to intake timing has been wrong (too early opening/closing), and I've been mixing burning mixture to fresh mixture too much. It leads to uncontrollable detonation issues that may be a trigger to the residue buildup.
Only after Poland did I have time to play with intake timing, I can only say that I should've done it earlier. A massive drop in noise and much better compression resistance.
Now it looks like that unlike the previous Schnuerles, the baffle-piston version has a perfect running symmetry also when mounted horizontally, so it's not so critical about oil viscosity anymore. So for now I'm back to Super Techniplate. L

[Reptoid]

Tom if I hear back from them I’ll inquire.  The stuff I ordered from FHS they call 62R.  As mentioned R for red.  They are leaving the dye out for me.  Is the “62” slang for 625?  Maybe.

Dave

Yes 62R is Ucon 625 with red dye but don't tell them I told you. It's a "Trade secret"

[Reptoid]

[quote author=Dave Harmon link


Some of the guys in the Los Angeles area....including me....had been buying K&B X2C out the back door when K&B was still in Downey, Calif at their original location.....bring your container or buy a K&B metal can for $1 and they would fill it up for $8 per gallon.
I was living nearby at the time so I would take several gallons to contests for friends that had called.
In the end.....I still have about 4 gallons of X2C....no dye....and it works well.

A couple of years ago I had a phone conversation with Clarence and I asked him what X2C REALLY was.
He said it was UCON 1145 and to be careful with it because it burned at 430 degrees F which is lower than modern oils.
It has been discontinued for many years now and I expect I am the only dummy that still has any of it.

Don't know if Clarence just mixed the numbers up, forgot, or just misspoke, but: K & B X2C was developed by K&B (Bill Wisniewski) working in conjunction with Dow Corning using UCON base products. The final product was called X2C (Proprietary name) and was made by Dow Corning and later DuPont under the official Part number of MA731 (MA stands for model airplane). It was UCON based with an anti rust/corrosion additive not contained in "Neat" UCON oils. UCON 1145 is a higher viscosity than either MA731 or UCON 625.I don't know if you can still buy MA 731 direct but if you can, I would assume it would only be in 55 gallon drums like other DuPont products.

[Brett Buck]

Brett,

At the moment I use 105ml/flight, and the engine doesn't feel particularly hot after flight.

    That's about 3.6 ounces, which is less than a Fox 35 on 5% nitro. I am running around 6.7 ounces (197 ML), last I knew, David was running around 8.5 ounces (250 ML).

  But, of course combustion temperate and engine head temp are two different things and you have taken extreme measures (integrated cooling fins) to make the heat gets out. Power = heat, you are probably running less shaft HP due to your more efficient props, so the overall heat is not that different. But there is only one way to get the about the same energy out of half the fuel, that is to burn it at a higher temperature.

But what may be related to this issue, is that my approach to intake timing has been wrong (too early opening/closing), and I've been mixing burning mixture to fresh mixture too much. It leads to uncontrollable detonation issues that may be a trigger to the residue buildup.
Only after Poland did I have time to play with intake timing, I can only say that I should've done it earlier. A massive drop in noise and much better compression resistance.
Now it looks like that unlike the previous Schnuerles, the baffle-piston version has a perfect running symmetry also when mounted horizontally, so it's not so critical about oil viscosity anymore. So for now I'm back to Super Techniplate. L

  That one, I am going to have to think about for a while. Although if it was detonating/firing too far before TDC, I can easily imagine that the internal ballistics would affect when it happened - which is the same effect that causes it when it is not detonating, just a more extreme case.

          Brett

[Lauri Malila]

Ok, I'll try to be more clear. This is what I think happened (Intake timing interactions are extremely complex to calculate and simulate, and change completely depending on what exhaust system is used):
My mistake was focusing on intake timing as a function of crankcase volume and target RPM, just to harmonise the intake pulse.
A simple simulation gave an opening/closing value 35/35 degr. ABDC/ATDC, it also felt logical to my common sense, so I stuck with it.
But, in a 2-stroke engine you must never focus on a single variable, but always look at the whole process.
So, when the intake valve opens (too) early, the transfer port is still too much open and too much of the used gases get compressed/sucked back into transfer port(s).
With 35 degr. timing the transfer port was about half-open at the moment of intake opening, and when retarded to 45/45, the overlap was reduced to only about 0,5..0,6mm.
If a 10 degree change has such a dramatic effect, I must absolutely go a few degrees further and see what happens when the transfer closes at the same time than intake opens, or even a little later. I'm sure it'll be a break point of something very interesting.
L