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Author Topic: What's Wrong With Metal Props?  (Read 2715 times)

Offline Motorman

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What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« on: February 02, 2025, 05:48:43 PM »
I made a metal prop. The manufacturing process and the Trig was interesting. It came out very nice and made a good stiff pattern.

How long ago was the rule against metal props made. Weren't they made of sheet metal or something worse? Were they worried about failure or maybe the damage potential.

MM :)
Wasted words ain't never been heard. Alman Brothers

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2025, 06:26:41 PM »
I don't know the origin of the rule.  It was always there.

Maybe the theory was that there were only two materials, wood and metal and metal seemed more dangerous.

Now we have carbon fiber, fiberglass, and other non-metallic props that are as strong & dangerous as aluminum at least.  Maybe steel would be somewhat worse.

It's just a discussion item to me.  I don't plan on getting into metal props.

Paul Smith

Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2025, 07:24:33 PM »
I made a metal prop. The manufacturing process and the Trig was interesting. It came out very nice and made a good stiff pattern.

How long ago was the rule against metal props made. Weren't they made of sheet metal or something worse? Were they worried about failure or maybe the damage potential.

MM :)

Hi MM, the problem is the power stroke of an IC engine. The continual banging eventually weakens/fractures the prop and it throws a blade or two! It would be like a knife coming at you at who knows how fast.

Now on an electric, they'd probably work fine. But DON'T take my word for it!

I think your metal prop would make a fine plug for a prop mold to make CF props.

Good luck, Jerry

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2025, 02:20:09 AM »
Jerry's got it right: the issue with a metal prop--typically aluminum, but it would be the same with steel--is that they have a fatigue limit, and poor damping. The best way to understand this is to go look at what a company like Sensenich goes thru to get a fixed-pitch metal prop certified on a specific engine. You have to look at vibration modes probably up into the 15-20 range. If you hung the prop by the hub and hit it in various locations with a hammer, how would it ring? Those are vibration modes. And there are a bunch. If those modes are excited by the pulsing of the engine at any allowable rpm, then without sufficient damping the amplitudes are large and fatigue sets in quickly. Part of the testing is done on the engine with strain gauges installed and monitored during operation. (I've been thru something like this with a turbine blisk.) It is far worse for a model engine because the higher rpm means a lot more fatigue cycles are accumulated very quickly. It MAY be worse because most of the engines are single cylinder.

If you want to understand the sensitivity of prop geometry to this problem, go read the accounts out there in probably the '60's and '70's on homebuilt aircraft like the Thorp T-18. The plane had plenty of speed potential but needed a shorter prop and more pitch. So a few guys cut down existing metal props and increased the pitch. And then they started shedding blades in flight. You can imagine that it might tear the engine off the mounts? And it might not be recoverable...so the plane goes down?

There are (or were) commercially available metal props for homebuilt aircraft that had a placard warning that it could not be operated between specific rpm values due to excitation of a particular vibration mode. It happened to sit near a cruise-power setting because the prop manufacturer tried, but could not tweak the prop enough to get rid of the problem. Needless to say, I didn't buy and install that prop....

The model prohibition is sensible because: (a) it is a real phenomenon not some bureaucratic dictate; (b) the only way modelers could achieve a workable metal prop is by cut-and-try methods thereby exposing themselves to high risk; (c) the alternatives are easily available. My thought is this: if you want to try it in your garage and have lots of knowledge and safety precautions then it is your experiment. But be sure you have very good health insurance. (Don't think that the AMA insurance will apply.)  But don't bring it out to the field and subject bystanders to that risk who may not understand the situation.

But that prop looks like it will make a super-nice letter opener....

Offline Mark Gerber

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Re: What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2025, 05:41:41 AM »
Jim Walker used to furnish a stamped metal prop in each Firebaby kit.  About 1960 when Dad bought me a Firebaby, Zim, the hobby shop owner, opened the box, took out the metal one and replaced it with a nylon Top Flite.  "No charge" he said for the prop.  He knew the metal ones weren't safe.

Mark Gerber 

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2025, 06:04:39 AM »
Now that you mention it, the pictures I saw of sheet metal props were simple stampings that did not increase the thickness near the hub as is the common practice with wood and plastic props.  The other thing that occurred me was the absence of a plan to tighten-down on the thin material.  This was left to the imagination of the user.  Maybe a remint of broken wood prop.
Paul Smith

Offline spare_parts

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Re: What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2025, 08:51:15 AM »
Even APC has experienced harmonics issues with certain designs and applications. All their electric props are marked not for engines, but some still use them.

Does the no metal props rule even exist outside sanctioned events? It used to be in the safety code. I know it came into question when the first aluminum EDF rotors came about.
Greg

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2025, 09:46:27 AM »
Jim Walker used to furnish a stamped metal prop in each Firebaby kit.  About 1960 when Dad bought me a Firebaby, Zim, the hobby shop owner, opened the box, took out the metal one and replaced it with a nylon Top Flite.  "No charge" he said for the prop.  He knew the metal ones weren't safe.

Mark Gerber

  The K&B Baby.020 came with a stamped sheet metal props also, I believe. The GHQ ignition engine came with an aluminum and the stories I have read is that most owners threw it away immediately, not wanting to get finger caught or whacked by that monster!! That added to the lore of the GHQ that it was impossible to start, because the owners never looked at the prop tonotice that it was a left handed prop and the crankshaft was timed for that direction. I think that has been confirmed a few times here on the forum. I have never had an opportunity to own a complete to find out for myself.

 Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline jerry v

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Re: What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2025, 11:27:37 AM »
I made a metal prop. The manufacturing process and the Trig was interesting. It came out very nice and made a good stiff pattern.

How long ago was the rule against metal props made. Weren't they made of sheet metal or something worse? Were they worried about failure or maybe the damage potential.

MM :)
If the prop is made from high speed steel or carbide it will be stiffer. And there will be less flailing during the cosine effect.

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2025, 12:02:12 PM »

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2025, 12:05:56 PM »
Whenever I saw those props advertised at cut rate prices I figgered that the user would certainly bend the prop trying to start the engine.

Then the next step would be to straighten it, causing fatigue near the hub.  The same thing again in the slim chance that anybody would actually get the thing in the air.  Then again, bending & straightening, and more metal fatigue.
Paul Smith

Offline Motorman

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Re: What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2025, 08:04:16 PM »
I think the GHQ was a piston port so it would (not) run either direction depending on the ignition. I had one for a while and fixed many problems, even I couldn't get it running. A friend had one modded by Henery Nelson, it didn't run either lol.

I knew a guy who set the record in D speed who told me he only uses fiberglass props because the CF props would snap from the vibration as the enigne was winding down. I haven't had that problem in smaller engines (knock wood). I can see why a metal prop would snap off, plus they're pretty heavy.

MM :)
Wasted words ain't never been heard. Alman Brothers

Offline Ty Marcucci

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Re: What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2025, 07:35:54 AM »
I have two or three of them on my Fire Baby's. I don't run the engines with them on, just for show.  I remember  back in 53, bending the prop straight so we could get back in the air for one more figure 9..Love those Fire Baby's   H^^
Ty Marcucci

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: What's Wrong With Metal Props?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2025, 03:34:26 PM »
I think the GHQ was a piston port so it would (not) run either direction depending on the ignition. I had one for a while and fixed many problems, even I couldn't get it running. A friend had one modded by Henery Nelson, it didn't run either lol.  MM :)

Was once at Waegel Field near Rancho Cordova, CA, getting ready for an FAI FF contest there. Down the field a guy was flying an R/C OT Sal Taibi "Powerhouse". It made a LOT of noise and climbed VERY fast for such a big model (like 7'+ wingspan cabin design with grossly thick airfoil, etc), so I asked a local if he knew what the power was. I was told that it was a Bill Wisnewski reworked GHQ!!! $$$!!! Never got to take a look at it, but would have liked to confirm that.  y1 Steve
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