News:


  • April 18, 2024, 06:54:49 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?  (Read 12268 times)

Offline Claudio Chacon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« on: January 29, 2021, 08:55:58 AM »
Hi guys!
I have a NIB ST.46 since 1983...it's time to enjoy it, I guess! ;D
What would be your best choice to put this classic in? (for competition purposes)

Thanks in advance for your input!


Offline Phil Spillman

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 804
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2021, 09:55:55 AM »
I have had many hours of flying fun with one of my ST .46's on a Brodak Hellcat profile! I've also flown one on a Brodak P-40 ARF profile and an over weight Prowler! All of these plane flew quite well with this engine!

Phil Spillman
Phil Spillman

Offline Terrence Durrill

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 605
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2021, 11:09:18 AM »

I would go with a SIG CHIPMUNK. In fact I have two SIG CHIPMUNK kits on shelf in the shop, but only have OS MAX .35S engines to power them.  I guess those engines will have to do...........after all a lot of C/L guys have flown that combo and liked it just fine.  ..........  D>K       H^^

Offline Dwayne Donnelly

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 570
  • Balsa Beavers Toronto Canada
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2021, 11:34:54 AM »
A classic in a classic. Genesis 46
My purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13732
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2021, 01:28:13 PM »
Hi guys!
I have a NIB ST.46 since 1983...it's time to enjoy it, I guess! ;D
What would be your best choice to put this classic in? (for competition purposes)

  Presumably for classic, right? I would suggest one of the larger 35-sized airplanes, so you have a hope against the superior Aero-Tiger 36.

 For unrestricted competition, I would suggest Ted Fancher's "Temptation", the last and arguably the best of the serious ST46 airplanes, and properly sized at a mere 610 square inches. But as good as it is, you will be fighting uphill against piped airplanes and electric.

     Brett

p.s. if it is really a 1983 production engine, in the blue/white box, start looking for replacement rings right away. The rings in packages that just have the last 4 digits ("0316") instead of the entire part number are the older ones that would be expected to be better. If it is in an original "red box" and you just happened to buy it in 1983 after it had been sitting around for 15 years, then, you have a chance with the stock unit.

Offline Alexey Gorbunov

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2021, 02:06:35 PM »
A classic in a classic. Genesis 46
What about Stiletto?

Offline Alan Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2021, 06:49:37 PM »
i would agree with  motorman a 46 in humongous
ALAN E BUCK

Offline Mike Griffin

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2760
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2021, 07:18:34 PM »
Imitation.

Mike

Offline John Leidle

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 409
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2021, 10:06:33 PM »
   I'd like to see it in a Thunderbird 2.
       John L.

Online Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6856
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2021, 10:21:05 PM »
  There are far, far too many Humungi in the world, and not enough Stilettos!!

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Mike Greb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2021, 05:52:08 AM »
Ringmaster

Offline Chuck_Smith

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2021, 06:19:35 AM »
Busso Super Kestrel, use the Big Jim" nose construction with a slide-in tank and you'll have great flyer.
AMA 76478

Offline Claudio Chacon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2021, 08:30:01 AM »
Well! Thanks a lot for all your ideas, guys!
I love all the planes you've mentioned...

Two of them specially caught my attention (both Ted Fancher's designs...) The IMITATION and TEMPTATION...

Are the plans available in .pdf format?

 H^^

Offline Claudio Chacon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2021, 03:26:57 PM »
  Presumably for classic, right? I would suggest one of the larger 35-sized airplanes, so you have a hope against the superior Aero-Tiger 36.

 For unrestricted competition, I would suggest Ted Fancher's "Temptation", the last and arguably the best of the serious ST46 airplanes, and properly sized at a mere 610 square inches. But as good as it is, you will be fighting uphill against piped airplanes and electric.

     Brett

p.s. if it is really a 1983 production engine, in the blue/white box, start looking for replacement rings right away. The rings in packages that just have the last 4 digits ("0316") instead of the entire part number are the older ones that would be expected to be better. If it is in an original "red box" and you just happened to buy it in 1983 after it had been sitting around for 15 years, then, you have a chance with the stock unit.

Hello Brett,
Yes, it's the blue/white box one...I even bought some spare parts back then, as you can see...
And YES! The ring part number is the 8 digit one! Are these rings THAT bad???  :'( What is the life span of these using good lubrication? (say, 25% castor content)
I have no idea where to get the "good" ones!

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13732
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2021, 04:09:24 PM »
Hello Brett,
Yes, it's the blue/white box one...I even bought some spare parts back then, as you can see...
And YES! The ring part number is the 8 digit one! Are these rings THAT bad???  :'( What is the life span of these using good lubrication? (say, 25% castor content)
I have no idea where to get the "good" ones!

   Ask Randy. Don't panic, you may luck out and get a good one in the engine, see many previous posts to determine how good it is after you run it a while. Do not use straight castor or that much oil - its not an oil issue, and all that oil will tend to glue the ring in the groove after a while.

    But, that's why I recommended a small airplane like the Temptation, it is much less demanding of the engine than the 700+square inch monsters no matter how light you build them. Ted and I never talked about it too much, but part if the idea with ST46 airplanes at the end was to make them smaller and smaller so you didn't demand extraordinary power out of them.

    The weak compression engines would run smooth enough, just without much power, so you could either keep fighting for a better ring seal (which varied wildly from day to day) to get the required power, or just live with it and make the airplane fly well with less engine.

   We only had a lot of problems when we were trying to wring the last bit of power out of them.

     This was clearly a stopgap situation, trying to stave off ST60 models, until we all got 40VFs, at which point power was no longer an issue. Of course, people *still* have 40VFs and better - which is the problem with trying to run the ST46, 60, or anything like it straight-up. An Aero-Tiger 36 is more effective on these smaller airplane than an ST46, and I flew my last ST46 airplane with a box-stock iron-liner 35FP, which was at least a wash. About a month later, same airplane with a 40VF, and, problem solved forever.

      Brett

Offline Leonard Bourel

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2021, 06:21:36 PM »
I also would not recommend the ST 46 on a 650 -700 square inch plane The Stiletto 660 or the Genesis 46 are just too big for a box stock ST46 I run a Tom Dixon ST51 square head in my Stiletto and I would run the same in a Genesis 46 That Engine (the ST46) in box stock form would be best suit to a Brodak profile cardinal or P40 at most if kept light !!! or would be good power for a 35 size  Genesis or Stiletto or Gieseke Nobler I believe that the Genesis 46 in flying models was powered by a modified ST 46 by Rich Tower who re timed it to have the power of a 51.

Online Dennis Toth

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4224
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2021, 07:44:25 AM »
One thing you might consider is touch base with Brain Gardner and see when he will have a run of ABC setups for the ST46 (I think he might be getting ready for them this spring). Changing out the ring setup for an ABC will change the motor from a OK to a solid power plant. The ring seal is the weak point in the motor and Brian's ABC setup cures that.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Claudio Chacon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2021, 09:32:30 AM »
I get the point, guys: Choose any good 35 size plane and install the ST.46 in it.
You've been very kind. Thank you!

PS: Found the "IMITATION" plans in pdf!  #^

Offline Doug Moisuk

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 287
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2021, 10:45:55 AM »
Stiletto
Dove
Brodak arf or arc Vector
Doug Moisuk
MAAC 3360L

Offline Paul Gittel

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2021, 10:59:35 AM »
The Late Great Tom Niebuhr suggested the LA.46 to me, to power the lovely J.D. Falcon kit he produced, so a ST.46 would also suit y1 that beautiful classic design.

Online Tony Drago

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2021, 03:17:22 PM »
How about Ed Southwick's Skylark.( NOT the Sterling kits version.) It was butchered by Sterling to fit in the box.
Eds (original version) pre Sterling kit.

Offline Mike Griffin

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2760
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2021, 09:52:41 PM »
I get the point, guys: Choose any good 35 size plane and install the ST.46 in it.
You've been very kind. Thank you!

PS: Found the "IMITATION" plans in pdf!  #^

Claudio, if you do choose the IMITATION, I built one from plans and using Ted's article for guidance before i kitted it.  It is not difficult at all to build from plans but if you have a set of the plans that shows the circular bellcrank, I would just use a good 4" bellcrank instead. 

I built 3 of them and used the OS LA.46 on all of them and they flew like a dream.  Ted designed it to do that.  And oh yes, they look really cool in the air.

Good luck with whatever you decide but I am a little prejudiced about the IMITATION.

Mike

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13732
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2021, 09:55:28 PM »
Claudio, if you do choose the IMITATION, I built one from plans and using Ted's article for guidance before i kitted it.  It is not difficult at all to build from plans but it you have a set of the plans that shows the circular bellcrank, I would disregard and just use a good 4" bellcrank instead. 

I built 3 of them and used the OS LA.46 on all of them and they flew like a dream. 

    The original flew very well with the ST46, so good we have been trying to replicate it for 40 years. I note that the 46LA  is a much better stunt engine.

     Brett

Offline Trostle

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3340
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2021, 11:18:49 PM »
There have been some worthwhile options suggested for the ST .46.  Two of those suggestions have a pedigree that the others do not match.

Les McDonald and his Stiletto won three World Championships and then won the US Nationals.  However, I am pretty sure that his power plant was not the ST .46

Bob Hunt and his Genesis won a World Championship and then the US Nationals.  I know for sure his engine for the 72 World Championship was the ST .46.  (Rework unknown, same about his Nats winning engine.)

Fancher's design is no slauch either.

Keith

Offline RandySmith

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 13747
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
    • Aero Products
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2021, 02:03:32 AM »
There have been some worthwhile options suggested for the ST .46.  Two of those suggestions have a pedigree that the others do not match.

Les McDonald and his Stiletto won three World Championships and then won the US Nationals.  However, I am pretty sure that his power plant was not the ST .46

Bob Hunt and his Genesis won a World Championship and then the US Nationals.  I know for sure his engine for the 72 World Championship was the ST .46.  (Rework unknown, same about his Nats winning engine.)

Fancher's design is no slauch either.

Keith

Les went from the  OS 35  to the  ST46 ,but in a larger  Stiletto , Then because os the advantage in line size, and  better power, he  went to the K&B 40  in his  later models, he won World Championships  with the  K&B

Randy

Offline Chuck_Smith

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2021, 06:11:01 AM »
I loved flying the ST.46. They were reliable and smooth - if you knew how to set them up.

But then again back in those days stunt was more about being to build a great plane, being able to trim it properly, and finally, knowing how to set the power system up for reliable operation. For those of you that were around and remember, there were a lot of people that never figured out the engine run part of flying. A lot of them. I may even dare to say most of them.

The ST .46 was a leap forward from the .35S. Besides power, it was a BB engine and had longevity on it's side. Yes, it was a little finicky about fuel and yes, it needed proper cooling in the cowl, but once you had them dialed in they ran great. I still have some with 100's of flight on them and they're still airworthy. The beauty of the ST.46 to me was the break. It was that Goldilocks "This engine is just right" feel. I have always flown just a tad slower than most and the  ST was the bang-on engine for me too. I also believe that getting proficient with the .46 made my transition to the ST.60 easier too.


But, I again repeat that power setup is becoming a lost art. Todays (and they're wonderful) modern engines like PA's on a pipe and electric pretty much guarantee anyone north of the village idiot can have smooth, reliable power. High rev/low pitch on a pipe setups pretty much take the guesswork out of it. If it unloads in the air or on downlines lengthen the pipe. Yes, a lot of us have now had to move to movable rudders to cope with precession on the blades we swing now, so I'll give you that the new, better power has added a degree of difficulty in trimming. Oh yeah, I don't spend much time re-pitching my Rev-Ups anymore either.

The power today is so much better that we fly (and score!) the pattern differently. No more "winding up" on windy days, etc.  I haven't flown a competitive ship in couple years now. Too boring. The old stuff was a lot more satisfying to me because so much had to come together to have good pattern. Today the flying seems a bit soulless and clinical for my tastes. It's like catching a 10 pound fish on 80 pound test. Great if you want to eat, but not much sport.

All in my humble opinion and you may certainly feel free to disagree.

Chuck


Update 2/1/ 10:55

I should add that while I think we can agree that the flying has evolved, I don't mean to imply that the old way was better, it just put more emphasis on different skillsets. Today's top pilots are very good at what they do.

Chuck
« Last Edit: February 01, 2021, 08:59:31 AM by Chuck_Smith »
AMA 76478

Offline Ted Fancher

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2326
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2021, 01:16:03 PM »
I would go with a SIG CHIPMUNK. In fact I have two SIG CHIPMUNK kits on shelf in the shop, but only have OS MAX .35S engines to power them.  I guess those engines will have to do...........after all a lot of C/L guys have flown that combo and liked it just fine.  ..........  D>K       H^^

An excellent choice, Terence.  There's a US Nats history of that combination worth retelling...although, unfortunately my personal records don't go back as far as those events so I'm more or less winging what follows.

A young David Fitzgerald set some sort of Nats record by winning the Junior and Senior Nats events every year he was eligible starting probably in the early 1970s (sort of a harbinger, you might say).  Pretty much every year as a Senior he flew Sig Chipmunks, initially with OS .35Ss modified by Big Art but, ultimately, for the last couple of years he made the decision to throw in the  then "Big Boys' Pro Stunt favorite" Super Tigre .46.  The  performance enhancement was readily apparent from the get go and, again, the combination won every time out.  Upon entering the big boy ranks in 1990 he had switched to the more conventional ships of the era...my records show an Imitation for his rookie of the year maiden 9th place in Open...although my memory doesn't include a stock Imitation ever in his fleet.  Pretty good basis on which to give such a combination a try today.

FWIW beyond that I've a suggestion that I've promised myself to explore for several years now that never came to fruition...a Super Tigre .46 in a similar sized/configured ship, a Dick Mathis Chizler...my favorite ever airplane choice for VSC.

What I wanted to do...even have a new "modified" Chizler in base color (Atacama Yellow to match my little BMW Z4roadster) hanging in the shop "aging" that base color for several years...was to power the ship in "today's" I.C. manner; utilizing low pitch and high RPM.  When we talk about "high RPM" for stunt nowadays what we're really talking about is merely 10K +or- a couple of hundred RPMs.  Unloaded, (vicinity of 10-10.5 x 4-4.5  propeller) such revs are perfectly achievable by the ST...albeit the DB level might be a bit...um, er...bold with a Big Art or so type of muffler.  But, what the heck, noise used to be part of the big boy stunt package!

IMHO such a combination might actually be pretty competitive nowadays with the big boys! (Boy, I'm gonna catch it for that one!!)

Just food for thought.

Claudio might want to consider doing the same!

Ted Fancher

Online Bob Hunt

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2702
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2021, 01:26:24 PM »
There have been some worthwhile options suggested for the ST .46.  Two of those suggestions have a pedigree that the others do not match.

Les McDonald and his Stiletto won three World Championships and then won the US Nationals.  However, I am pretty sure that his power plant was not the ST .46

Bob Hunt and his Genesis won a World Championship and then the US Nationals.  I know for sure his engine for the 72 World Championship was the ST .46.  (Rework unknown, same about his Nats winning engine.)

Fancher's design is no slauch either.

Keith

Hi Keith:

Actually it was sort of reversed to what you wrote: The 1976 Nats winning Genesis was indeed powered by the ST .46. The 1978 World Champ Genesis was powered by an OS Max FSR .40. Of course today I'd opt in a New Jersey minute for a BadAss 3515 710 kv electric motor and a 6S 2800 mAh battery! What a combination that would be!  #^

Later -Bob


Offline Frank Imbriaco

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 912
  • At the 69 Willow Grove NATS with J.D. FALCON II
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2021, 02:02:29 PM »
1)Scarinzi's   "Blue Angel"
2) Silhavey's  "Gypsy"

Both offered by Brodak

Offline Alexey Gorbunov

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2021, 02:12:10 PM »
Jim`s Casale Spectrum?
Or Ed`s Capitanelli Starduster?

Offline Air Ministry .

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 4983
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2021, 10:34:16 PM »
Back in the day , 60 span, 60 oz. was considered the max for the ST 46 .

Compostellas Tango was thus . on 3% Nitro with extra head gaskets but a 10x6 three blade & in a two stroke. It was said . Garnered from magaines of that era .



This things 64 span 65 Oz, .210 Intake on a carefully bedded in engine, No Overheating theory . Pulls it well , on a 12 x 5 in say 8 knot or less air .
Not configured for wind anyway .

Best to do initial runs on a cool day, 30 % oil . A few bursts on prime. a few 5 then ten then 30 sec. runs . theory being remove any high spots before they get hot enough to ' pick up '
Some of us though have faith in the engineering . If the unions , metal wrkers strikes , & so on , wernt in effect when made .

Backing of to say a Mk II T-Bird , should see it last indefinately . If flushed & oiled post use .
After a few hours running maybe 23 % Oil . 20C 3 S would be fine . Tom Lay was a Orl Castor advocate .  Flush , crc, then oil .

Dry Castor sticks the ring , no good. Tom advocated the RING would last twice as long on Castror than 50/50 C&S .

Dunno if the rings wernt varied for chromed ( hard ) bore & later soft - Youd think they would. The Hardened Bowman rings are still available .

Offline Robert Whitley

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 288
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2021, 10:55:08 PM »
Mark Freeman’s clipped wing Spitfire?

Offline Trostle

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3340
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2021, 11:16:09 PM »
Hi Keith:

Actually it was sort of reversed to what you wrote: The 1976 Nats winning Genesis was indeed powered by the ST .46. The 1978 World Champ Genesis was powered by an OS Max FSR .40. Of course today I'd opt in a New Jersey minute for a BadAss 3515 710 kv electric motor and a 6S 2800 mAh battery! What a combination that would be!  #^

Later -Bob

Bob,

I apologize for not getting the year correct, particularly your win in England in 1978.  I should have known better and checked my records rather than my memory.  I was there and I was a judge.  No excuse for not getting that right.  I will not ever forget that day and that flight you had.  Also, I will never forget that you let me fly your Genesis later that day.

Keith

Offline Claudio Chacon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2021, 06:32:21 AM »
Hi Keith:

Actually it was sort of reversed to what you wrote: The 1976 Nats winning Genesis was indeed powered by the ST .46. The 1978 World Champ Genesis was powered by an OS Max FSR .40. Of course today I'd opt in a New Jersey minute for a BadAss 3515 710 kv electric motor and a 6S 2800 mAh battery! What a combination that would be!  #^

Later -Bob

Hello Bob,
Was that 1976 ST.46 you won the Nats with, a box stock engine?

Online Bob Hunt

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2702
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2021, 08:29:55 AM »
Hi Claudio:

Well, no; in those days all my ST 46 engines (and later the FSR 40s) were custom fit and tuned by Richie Tower.

I'm going to paste in here a portion of one of the chapters of my Genesis Saga book that covers to a degree the days in which the East Coast guys (and others) discovered and flew the ST 46. Even though I'm now a staunch believer in electric power, I look back very fondly on my days flying ST 46 powered models, and especially the days in which I used the OS Max 40 FSR engines.

Here goes...

For the next part of the Genesis story we need to retrace our steps a bit back to 1970. After Bill Werwage’s appearance at the 1969 Nats and his subsequent successes with the ST 46 powered USA-1 at the 1969 Team Trials and his Gold Medal winning performance at the 1970 World Championships, a number of stunt fliers began thinking about designing larger ships and utilizing the seemingly abundant, smooth and tamable power of the Super Tigre 46 engine.

   Bob Lampione decided to go “big” for 1970 and designed and built a larger version of his 1969 Nats winning F-86 Sabre Jet. He opted to start his big model experiments around a foam Shark 45 wing, and he used a Fox .59 for power. His decision to use the Fox 59 instead of the ST 46 came about because of Larry Scarinzi’s success with the Fox 59 in his famous Blue Angel design. With that ship Larry placed third at the 1964 Nats in Dallas. Unfortunately the Fox just didn’t make the kind of power required to haul the somewhat heavy F-86 around properly. Add to that the fact that Bob was never able to achieve a proper “stunt run” with that engine and the result was less than desirable. It was good enough, however, to garner a fine 4th place finish at the 1970 Nats in Glenview, Illinois.
        
Bill Simons had decided to go big at about that same time, but he opted to use the ST 46 for power as Bill Werwage had. He really didn’t want to use any existing design technology and so he set off on his own to come up with a totally new ship using the “blank sheet of paper” approach.

The first decision that Bill had to make was what wing to use. Again he shunned any existing airfoils and came up with one of his own. I remember being in his shop and asking him how one designs an original airfoil. He literally put a piece of plywood on the floor and then put his foot down on the plywood and drew around the curve of the sole of his shoe! “There,” he said, “It’s a Florsheim Special!” Obviously he tweaked that curve more than just a bit before he was done designing, but that really was how he initially started the development of that airfoil set.
 
Bill designed a ship with twin rudders and appropriately named it Gemini. I cut the foam wing for that ship and it had more than 720 square inches of wing area. It was the biggest thing he’d ever built, and as it began to take shape in his diminutive bedroom workshop, I wasn’t too sure that he’d be able to get it out the door when it was finished. Okay, that’s an exaggeration… but not much of one!
 
In typical Bill Simons’ fashion, the finish on the Gemini was outstanding. Unfortunately, however, the projected finished weight was exceeded by quite a few ounces and the ship tilted the scales at 67 ounces! We were used to the 35 ships coming in at 39 to 45 ounces, so this was a shock. So much so that Bill decided to not even attempt flying the new ship. He just hung it on his workshop wall. And there it stayed for almost three years just gathering balsa dust and serving as an example of a good idea gone wrong.

I tried to get Bill to fly the Gemini, if only to see what it looked like in the air, but he was having none of it. It was a “Hangar Queen” to him and that was that. Bill could be stubborn.

Okay, now let’s fast forward to 1973. Just a couple of days before Bill was scheduled to leave for the Oshkosh Nats he was out practicing with his Gambit model. This ship was a slightly larger than normal 35-size design, but it was very light and it flew very well. It was powered by an OS Max 35S engine. Bill had been practicing hard with this ship and he was looking more than ready to make a serious assault on the Walker Trophy that year. That’s what we all thought right up to the point where, on one of the last practice flights before packing to leave, he neglected to walk backwards while performing a triangle loop in dead calm conditions. You guessed it; the model hit its own wake turbulence and knife-edged in towards Bill. He couldn’t gain line tension quickly enough to save the model and it smashed to bits against the asphalt.

Bill did not have another model to use as a backup… except the un-flown, heavy, balsa dust-covered Gemini. I reminded him about that model shortly after he picked up all the pieces of the Gambit.

Bill took the Gemini off the wall and cleaned off the three-year accumulation of dust and paint overspray. Under that mess was still a beautiful, brand-new stunt model. It was still heavy, however, and Bill didn’t hold out too much hope that it would fly well, if at all. He’s a trouper, however and proceeded to purchase and prepare a brand new set of .018 cables on which to fly the ship (neither he nor I had flown a model on such “thick” lines before).

Bill, Bill Eybers, and I went out to the field the next day to test fly the Gemini. Bill test ran the engine on the ground and then rolled out the .018 “chains.” He fired up the ST .46 and set the needle. We were all amazed at the “throat” of the sound made by this engine. He looked at me and smiled a bit, raised his eyebrows in a sort of “Here goes nothing” look, walked to the center of the circle and picked up the handle. He signaled for launch and I remember thinking as the big Gemini accelerated away that this was a bit like christening a new Navy ship and seeing it slide down the dry dock ways!

The Gemini settled into very stable-looking level flight at about a 5.5 second lap time. It looked slow on the long lines (at least they were longer than we were used to!). As I remember they were 65-foot long lines. So the actual length from the center of the plane to the center of the handle was in the 67-foot range.

The moment of truth had arrived and I was surprised to see Bill pull right up into a Reverse Wingover! I thought he might at least do a few loops or lazy eights before starting a pattern. What followed was an epiphany for all of us. The big ship flew awesomely well and Bill looked good with it immediately.

When he landed we all both broke out in unbridled laughter. He was obviously more than a little happy with the performance of the new/old ship and just could not believe that something so big and heavy could perform so well. (inside he just had to be kicking himself…)

Bill did a very few trim adjustments and flew the ship four or five more times and then declared it the best flying thing he’d ever owned. He offered me a flight on the ship, and even though it was the only plane he had that he could compete with the following week at the Nats, I took him up on it. I was told, however, to take it easy and not do the entire pattern with it. That seemed fair.

The Gemini felt great to me right away and had a sort of “slow motion” characteristic to it. The long lines and the powerful engine combined to yield an airplane that was amazingly easy to fly at 45 degrees. It was also extremely easy to scribe round and square shapes with that model. The vertical line tension was the best I’d ever felt up to that point from a stunt model. I knew that Bill had a serious weapon here, and I wanted one too! 

For the record, Bill flew the Gemini to a fifth place finish at the 1973 Nats. That’s not bad for a brand new model with but a small handful of practice flights on it. The weather at Oshkosh that year was very windy and Bill’s big model went through it with obvious ease.
It was clear to everyone who competed in the event that the age of the larger CL Stunt model had indeed arrived. Yes, Lew McFarland had done well with his Shark 45 design throughout the 1960s, winning it all in 1961 and 1962. Bill Werwage also experimented early on with the larger ships and produced the Super Ares, which, like Lew’s Shark, was powered by a K&B 45. It flew well and he placed second at the Nats in 1963. And, Bob Gialdini won in 1965 at Willow Grove flying his magnificent and very large Lee/Veco .45 powered Eclipse (it was also the first CL Stunt model equipped with a muffler to win a Nats.) For whatever reason, however, Lew’s, Bill’s and Bob’s successes with the bigger models didn’t register with too many fliers as the way to go then. But, when Bill Werwage won the World Championships flying a big model, and then backed it up with another Gold Medal performance two years later, quite a few began to take notice.
Bill Simons was not to only one to switch to larger models by 1973, but his model seemed to have the right look and seemed like a reasonable formula to follow to get started in this direction. 

It must be noted here that in 1973 there were four .46-size models in the Top Ten and six 35-size models. That was soon to change.


The above story tells of our first experiences with the ST 46. There's lots more to the ST 46 story on the East Coast, and virtually everyone who flew competitively in that region during the mid 1970s used them exclusively. Bill Simons' Scorpio, Jim Casale's Spectrum series, Gene Schaffer's Genesis 46, Statesman, and Hallmark models, and many others found good, solid, dependable power in the ST 46. And then came the OS 40 FSR...

Here's another excerpt from the Genesis Saga that explains how that engine came to be our favorite:

Construction on the new Genesis 46 Mk III was well underway in the early spring of 1978. The 1977 ship was performing great and everything seemed to be going well. I was content. That was not to last very long.

   I had met Richie Tower several years before (December of 1973, I think…), and he used to spend his off days hanging around my shop building. He was looking in a drawer for something one day and found a box that contained an OS Max .40FSR RC engine. He asked me what it was for and I told him that it had been given to me as a gift by Frank McMillan. I had not known what to do with it and the thought to try it in a CL Stunt model never even crossed my mind. Richie asked me if he could borrow it. I said, “Sure,” not even wanting it back.

   I forgot about that engine and the fact that Richie had it until he arrived at my shop one afternoon in the in the early summer of 1978 and said, Get a handle and get in my truck.” I thought to ask, “What for,” but thought better of it considering the look on Richie’s face and the tone of his voice. He meant business.

We drove the two miles to the Middlesex Modelers field and there he extracted a very familiar model from the back of the truck. It was Lou Dudka’s Genesis 46 Mk II that we had nicknamed, “Bowser.” Why Bowser? It was a dog! That plane weighed a ton - or at least 72 ounces! Most local stunt fliers had flown Bowser a time or two in the past and it was always amusing to see how much it mushed in the corners and how dead it looked at the end of the lines. No one could make that model look good in the pattern. It was normally fitted with a very tortured ST .46.

   Richie set Bowser on the line and told me to run out the lines and put my handle on and get a setting. By this time I had noticed that Bowser was fitted with a rather large 2-blade prop. How big? Try 13 inches. (That was huge in those days!) There was another strange thing about the nose area on Bowser. The ST .46 had been replaced by that RC engine that Richie had “borrowed” almost four years earlier. Well, I just laughed.

   There was no way that a miniscule RC .40 was going to swing that club of a prop, and even if it did, the best it could hope to do with Bowser attached was to taxi around the circle. Richie didn’t seem too amused that I was so amused and told me to, “Just shut up and fly it.”

   Epiphany time in Middlesex is what followed. Richie fired up the engine up and set it at what seemed too high a RPM setting. I shook my head and waved my hand for a launch. Bowser shot out from Richie’s launch and settled into a very steady level flight at about a 5.6 second lap. The line tension was staggering. I at first attributed this to the weight of this canine aerobat, but soon sensed that the real reason for the tension was power.

   I pulled up into a wingover expecting the plane to lag as it always had before. Imagine my surprise when the ship pulled very steadily over the top. It felt as if it had shed 20-plus ounces! I went on to fly a pattern that was nearly the equal of what I was flying with my 56-ounce front-line ship! I was totally amazed and all Richie could do was smile as I landed and walked out to the model.

   Richie Tower was known on the East Coast Hot Rod circuit as one of the most savvy engine builders in the area. He built not only drag car engines but also winning circle-track engines for a number of successful racers. The tuning of the engines for the different types of racing is very specific and Richie knew the intricacies of each type and how to extract maximum performance. When he got into modeling and started to use 2-cycle engines he cracked the books and learned what made them work and how to get more performance and reliability from them.

   The OS Max .40FSR had Schneurle porting and most of us CL types thought that engines with that construction would not be able to run with a traditional 2-4 break. We just assumed that they were all highly timed for fast run applications. Richie actually did the math…

   He really didn’t modify the timing or anything else at that point on the FSR, but he did figure out that the engine worked at a higher RPM range than we were used to and also had to be significantly loaded with prop to work well in our application. He tried that and it worked. To be fair, the FSR did have a tendency to run faster at the tops of outside maneuvers than our traditional stunt engines, but the big prop masked this tendency enough to make the engine more than usable. It was a very small price to pay for the amount of power that it produced.

   I was sold, but wanted to try the same thing with an HP 40 that I’d acquired. To be fair, Bill Werwage was the first flier that I knew of who had successfully tried a Schneurle ported .40 engine in CL Stunt. He had fitted his Peroquet design with an HP .40 in 1976 and used it to capture a Silver Medal at the 1976 World Championships. Billy is well known for his prowess with engines, and we all just thought that he had modified the timing to allow that engine to work for stunt. After seeing and feeling the OS .40FSR work so well I was inclined to put a venturi into the HP .40 that I owned and stick it in the nose of my 1977 Genesis 46Mk III.

   I installed the HP, put on a wooden 3-blade 11 x 5 prop and went to the field. The HP pulled my Genesis just as well as the FSR had pulled Bowser, only the effect was better since my ship was lighter. I did have to run it at a higher RPM range, just like the FSR, and it had a great 2-4 break at that RPM, just like the FSR. I decided to use this engine at the World Championships after but a handful of runs on it.

I had finished the new Genesis and had installed the HP .40. It was by far the best ship I had owned to date. It was extremely easy to fly and it turned equally and locked after a corner like nothing I’d ever owned or flown. I was a happy guy!

I had by then acquired the use of the Rutgers University Sports Arena parking lot as a practice facility, When the security guards at Rutgers discovered what I was doing there and what I was preparing for, they bent over backwards to make things easy for me. Heck, they even went out and got lunch for me sometimes! I think they really enjoyed watching me fly.
I realized that if I was going to use the HP in competition, I would need a few back up engines, so I contacted Jerry Nelson, owner of Midwest Model Supply. Jerry’s company was the importer and distributor of the HP line of engines in those days. I told him what I wanted and what I was planning to use the engines for, and he offered up a sponsorship! He sent me several engines and a bunch of spare parts, including an inordinate number of piston rings. I thought that was a bit strange, but very soon found out why.

   When I started practicing seriously I began having problems with the HP. It would run well for a few flights and then it would start to lose power. It sounded fine, but it just stopped pulling the airplane with any authority. I changed the ring in the engine and the power instantly came back. I thought I had the problem solved. Not to be… The new ring lasted only a handful more flights and the problem repeated itself. It was a cycle that continued for several days.

Each day I would fly several flights and then take the engine out and change the ring. That would restore the power for a few more flights and then I had to repeat the ring change process. It was getting old and time was getting short, but I was stubborn. Make that, I was stupid! I just refused to give up on the HP.

Later on – after my return from the World Championships – we took a long, hard look at the HP .40 engine to try and figure out why they were eating rings. I had been sure that the rings were simply losing their temper. (There had been a rash of ST .46 rings that had experienced the same problem years earlier.) What we found out was – and the people at Midwest Model Supply confirmed after some pressing - was that the liners had been manufactured with a process that left a microscopic burr at the ports on the inside of the liner. The lip was shearing the rings with each revolution and it didn’t take too long for that process to wear away enough of the ring to affect the seal. Go figure.

   To the rescue came Richie Tower once again. He showed up at my shop just two days before I was scheduled to leave for England. He had the FSR from Bowser in his hand and he told me to get my plane off the wall and put it upside down on the bench. He wasn’t even asking me if he could swap out the HP for the FSR, he just did it!

   Not only did the FSR run perfectly in the new Genesis, it flew it even better and with more authority than did the HP at its best. I thanked Richie profusely, but then realized that I didn’t have a back up engine. A quick call to Les McDonald at Orange Blossom Hobbies had a brand new one on its way to me via express mail. It arrived just in time.

   With only two or three flights on the FSR in the nose of my new Genesis, I packed to leave for the World Championships. I was mentally and physically exhausted from the recent week’s ordeals, but I figured I could rest up during the flight to England.

   You might be asking yourself at this point, “Why didn’t he just put the ST .46 back in the ship?” Well, that’s a good question and the answer is that the Schneurle 40 motors just had way more usable power than the ST .46, and I had become addicted to it. I just didn’t feel that I would have been competitive with the ST .46 if the conditions turned ugly. As it turned out, I was right! In my opinion the ST .46 was the perfect engine for a somewhat smaller ship, like Gene’s Hallmark or Bill Werwage’s Juno. I just think that we started our ST .46 experiments with an airframe that was too big. Yeah, they worked okay in perfect conditions, but when the wind came up big they were lacking in performance. Again, that’s my opinion.   

Inspiration and innovation, had turned to perspiration and exasperation for me at the eleventh hour of this quest, and only a miracle could have saved the day. Richie Tower was that miracle.



I know the above was a bit lengthy, but it does serve to illustrate our thinking in the 1970s on the East Coast about stunt ship size and power.

Later - Bob Hunt
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 12:12:14 PM by Bob Hunt »

Online Crist Rigotti

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3859
  • Electric - The future of Old Time Stunt
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2021, 08:54:23 AM »
Thanks for sharing this with us Bob.  Very addictive reading for sure.
Crist
AMA 482497
Waxahachie, TX
Electric - The Future of Old Time Stunt

Offline Claudio Chacon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2021, 09:31:59 AM »
Hi Claudio:

Well, no; in those days all my ST 46 engines (and later the FSR 40s) were custom fit and tuned by Richie Tower.

I'm going to paste in here a portion of one of the chapters of my Genesis Saga book that covers to a degree the days in which the East Coast guys (and others) discovered and flew the ST 46. Even though I'm now a staunch believer in electric power, I look back very fondly on my days flying ST 46 powered models, and especially the days in which I used the OS Max 40 FSR engines.

Here goes...
Quote

Thank you SO MUCH Bob.
This is a very enlightening piece of information!

Best regards,
Claudio.

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13732
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2021, 11:09:55 AM »
     I was hoping you would retell this story some day, because it inspired me much later to try something that "couldn't possibly work".

Quote
   I pulled up into a wingover expecting the plane to lag as it always had before. Imagine my surprise when the ship pulled very steadily over the top. It felt as if it had shed 20-plus ounces! 

    *Exactly* the same thing happened when I switched from the Fox 35 to a 20FP on the Skyray, it was like gravity was cancelled.

Quote
. Richie didn’t seem too amused that I was so amused and told me to, “Just shut up and fly it.”

    Which also summarizes every 20FP and 25LA post I ever made.

      Brett

Online Bob Hunt

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2702
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2021, 02:32:25 PM »
Thanks for sharing this with us Bob.  Very addictive reading for sure.

Hi Crist:

My pleasure old buddy! The excerpts were as noted from my Genesis Saga book. I have been trying to get some time cut loose to finish the layout of that book. It is long past due, I know, but I wanted it to have all the requisite photos in it and have it be in some sort of a pleasing graphic layout. There will be more than 270 photos in it when done, and what you read here is but a tiny portion of the story (saga?). It will not be presented in print form, rather as a number of PDF files in chronological order on a CD. At this point perhaps just getting it done in any form is better than never getting it done at all...

Later - Bob


Online Bob Hunt

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2702
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2021, 05:32:23 PM »
     I was hoping you would retell this story some day, because it inspired me much later to try something that "couldn't possibly work".

    *Exactly* the same thing happened when I switched from the Fox 35 to a 20FP on the Skyray, it was like gravity was cancelled.

    Which also summarizes every 20FP and 25LA post I ever made.

      Brett

Yeah, how about it, Brett; if I had listened to those who told me stuff I thought up wouldn't work all my career, I wouldn't have achieved too much. Thinking outside the box is easy for those of us who never had the key to get into the box in the first place. Richie Tower didn't even know there was a box to think outside of...

Later - Bob


Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13732
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2021, 08:56:41 PM »
Yeah, how about it, Brett; if I had listened to those who told me stuff I thought up wouldn't work all my career, I wouldn't have achieved too much.

   It never ceases to amaze me the extents people will go to *ignore* almost anything that deviates from their preconceived notions. Tuned pipe engines are an even *better* example, it immediately obsoleted everything else before it - not only did people argue about it, some of them treated it like you had burned down the old folks home.

       Brett

Online Bob Hunt

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2702
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2021, 06:16:31 AM »
LOL! Yeah, that was a tough time in my life indeed. I even received physical threats over it. Like Bob Baron once said (and he was King of the innovators), "Pioneers always end up with arrows in their heads." To be fair to those who didn't embrace the pipe thing right away, I was a bit arrogant about how good it was, and then proceeded to make a total mess of the "introduction" of the pipe concept to Nats competition. As much as it pains me, I will add another excerpt from the Genesis Saga here. It explains that whole era and the failed introduction for those who were not around the event in those days.

Here goes:

It had been a while since I designed and/or built a CL stunt model. Now, armed with the promise of a new type of engine run technology, our “team” (Richie Tower, Dean Pappas, and me) began working on adapting this new technology to the CL stunt event.

   The initial CL Stunt tuned pipe experiments began with a very quickly built test bed model. It had a box fuselage and it was fitted with a Genesis 46 MkIII wing and tail that I had lying around the shop. A couple of coats of clear urethane were applied as a finish and it was ready to go in about a week’s worth of assembly and finish time.

Richie Tower had decided that we’d start our experiments with a Rossi .40 rear exhaust engine. He calculated the pipe length that was required to achieve the desired boosting and governing properties, and we headed for the field. Wish I could tell you that we suffered greatly to bring this whole thing to fruition, but the truth is it worked just about perfectly right from the start!

We did experiment a lot with pipe length and even with various design pipes. They all worked pretty well, but some did exhibit better boosting and governing power profiles. Richie had obtained an OPS .40 SPA engine and we tried that on the test bed model. It worked even better than the Rossi had, and we decided to stick with it from that point on.

Okay, this was showing real promise as a viable and better-than-the-norm CL Stunt power package. It worked extremely well in heavy winds, supplying more power than any of our non-piped setups had for the vertical and overhead maneuvers, and also lots of braking where a normal glow setup would tend to accelerate coming “downhill.” It was at a point where we needed to fly a lot and experiment even further with pipe design, prop design and pipe length to see where even more gains could be made. As good as it was it was unrealistic to assume that we’d optimized this system so quickly. We needed someone in the program who had the time and inclination to spend a lot of time at the field testing and recording data on the variables. It was at that point - and with the “team’s” blessing - that I called Bill Werwage.

I explained what we were doing to Bill, and literally eight hours later he was knocking at my door (It’s a six hour ride from Berea, Ohio, where Bill was living at that time, to my house. I wonder what kept him…). Bill brought with him the model that he had used at the 1986 World Championships in Hungary. It was a 720 square inch model that was fitted with a USA-1 wing and tail. He had initially powered it with an ST .60, and he nicknamed it the “Hungarian Bull.” This model would later be rebuilt and refinished and become known as the USA-1 P (P for “pipe”), and then it was eventually rebuilt and refinished yet again and became known as the Junar.

We spent the evening of the day he arrived installing the OPS .40, and fitting a pipe to the underside of the “Bull.” We were using aluminum pipes in those first experiments and, although they were quite heavy, we had no real flight trim problems with them in the test bed model as they were positioned fairly close to the centerline of the fuselage. On Bill’s ship, however, we had to secure the pipe well below the wing and on the outboard side of the model.

The group (we had an almost overwhelming urge to call Bill D'Artagnan at this point…) was now four members strong and we met at the field to fly Bill’s model. Again the system worked to perfection in terms of run characteristics, and I will never forget the words that Bill called out to us when the engine stopped and the ship was gliding past us in preparation for a landing. He had this huge smile on his face and said, “Well there goes 30 years of engine development down the tube!” He understood immediately the significance of what he’d just experienced and that a new, better, CL Stunt power system was about to emerge.

All was not sublime, however, as the vertical CG of the model was way off. With the extra weight positioned so low on the model, the outboard wing rode quite high upright and low inverted. A “flap tweak” was not the answer for this problem; only raising the vertical CG would fix it. Bill decided that the obvious performance gain from the system was worth investing this model as a serious test bed ship and so he took a few pipes and the OPS .40 with him, and left for home.

Bill wasted no time in performing surgery on the bottom of the model in an attempt to install the pipe higher in the model and raise the vertical center of gravity. A test flight proved that it was better and there was less of a roll component, but there was still too much weight and it was positioned too low in the model to be effective in competition use. We needed a lighter pipe!

I was convinced enough in the concept to begin designing and building what would become the very first dedicated, tuned pipe-equipped competition CL Stunt model. Some years earlier I had designed and built an RC aerobatic model in which I used a lot of CL model design thinking. I named it the Crossfire to signify the crossfire of ideas from one modeling discipline to the other. I liked the general lines of that design and so stretched the fuselage aesthetics on to the new CL ship. There was no doubt what the aerodynamics of this model would be. Right from the start I knew that I would incorporate the same swept-forward TE wing design that I’d used in the 1980 Genesis, the same moment arms, and the same stabilizer and elevator as well.

At that time the RC guys were experiencing the same gains and the same problems as we were with long tuned pipes. They were all going to long pipe settings, and they were in search of lighter pipes as well. There was a lot of experimentation in carbon pipe construction going on, but no one seemed to be able to make an accurate, light, and durable pipe.

Stan Rauktis (of S&W Fuel fame), a local RC flier and model industry entrepreneur, was trying to make carbon pipe halves and then glue them together lengthwise. Predictably, this didn’t work. I knew that Stan was working on this problem and contacted him and asked him if he could make a carbon pipe that would be light enough for our use. He said he could, but then, after a while, admitted that he really didn’t have the answers to the construction and manufacturing problems for a carbon pipe.

I put Stan in touch with my father, James A. Hunt, who, as mentioned before, was a brilliant machine designer and manufacturing engineer. He studied the problem and suggested that we make an aluminum mandrel and use a carbon “sock” material which had properties much like a “Chinese Handcuff.” The carbon sock could be slid over the mandrel and then pulled at either end, forcing the carbon sock to neck down and follow the contours of the aluminum mandrel. The ends could then be tied off with twist ties and the carbon could be saturated with high temp epoxy and put in an oven to cure.

As well as the aluminum RC pipes had worked, Rich Tower was convinced that a custom designed pipe to fit our specific needs was required, and so my father turned the first dedicated mandrel for a CL stunt pipe to Rich’s specs. We obtained some carbon sock material from Aerospace Composite Products and also some high-temp epoxy and quickly made the first tuned pipe blank. Since the pipe was made in one piece, we had to cut it at a point where the required baffles would be installed and then find a way to reattach the severed end. My father came up with the idea of making a thin carbon sleeve that could be cut into sections. These sections slid into the pipe and positioned to accurately locate and secure the baffles. The two pipe pieces were grafted together over a piece of this sleeve and epoxied in place. A second overall coat of high temp epoxy was applied to the pipe and it was again baked in the oven. The finished product weighed less than two ounces, where the aluminum pipes weighed nearly six ounces! We were pretty sure our vertical CG problems were fixed at that point… It was a nice looking pipe; but would it work?

I was in a time crunch with the new ship. I had decided to reengage in Nats competition after a six year sabbatical. The new CL version of the Crossfire was just about complete, but we knew it would need the light carbon pipe in order to be competitive. Richie and my father had solved that problem. The Nats was only three weeks away and the Crossfire was sitting in my shop in primer. It needed to get painted, trimmed and cleared, and test flown very quickly if I was going to make it to the Nats.

Rich had a really nice spray booth at his house and I took the ship there to shoot the white base coat of color. We decided to paint the model with automobile lacquer. Rich told me that he’d do the spraying because he was familiar with the equipment. I was in no mood to argue with him and decided to go and get some hamburgers for our lunch while he was spraying the model. I was gone a while and was very surprised to find that Rich was still spraying color when I returned. In fact, he’d used almost an entire quart of white on the ship! I freaked out. He told me that the paint was not covering well and that he could still see some of the silver dope blocking coat showing through the white. Upon closer inspection it was determined that he was seeing shadows and mistaking them for silver showing through. He’d been painting shadows for almost an hour!

Predictably the finish coats were way too heavy. Couple this with the fact that some of my lightweight building skills had eroded during my time in RC and the result was a model that weighed about 66 ounces (without fuel on board) on a 630 square inch wing. Not good.

I decided to try and make this anvil fly anyway. It certainly had more than enough power, and the engine/pipe combination worked to perfection, but the wing loading proved to be a problem. The model would stall in tight outside corners. It was okay through inside corners, however. There must have been some blanketing effect that caused the outside turn problem.

Time had run out and my traveling partner to the Nats, Lou Wolgast pulled into my driveway ready to leave for Lincoln, Nebraska. I loaded the Crossfire next to Lou’s brand new Mirage in the foam rack that we had made to fit his Dodge Caravan, checked to see if the springs were too compressed (Okay, it wasn’t that heavy…), and we were on our way.

I asked Lou if we could stop by Bill Werwage’s home on the way, as he might have some trim tips that would make the Crossfire fly better. Lou was glad to do that as he also wanted Bill’s advice on a trim issue with his original design, Mirage. We pulled into Berea, Ohio early in the morning and Bill was more than happy to take on the challenge. We went to the flying site near the Cleveland Airport and began flying. Well, actually Bill began flying. He was like a man possessed. He’d fly the ship and then start making trim changes. I would fuel it up while he was adjusting on the ship and he’d fly again. This process went on for almost two full days! Bill flew more than 50 flights over those two days and made the Crossfire a much better machine in the process. He did convince me to add some area to the flaps to increase lift. The fix looked awful, but it did increase the performance. Bill also sorted out Lou’s problems with the Mirage, and we were back on the road to Lincoln again.

Throughout the entire two days at Bill’s home field, the one thing that worked to perfection was the power system. We had zero problems with engine runs, and I thought I was on my way to at least an endurable Nats experience. Wrong…

Right from the first flight at Lincoln I knew that something was terribly wrong. The engine/pipe system that had worked so well at Bill’s field was now not working at all. The engine would go lean shortly after takeoff and not return to the proper setting. The runs were sometimes so lean that the engine would sag badly and come down crackling hot. I knew this was not doing the engine any good, but just could not find the problem. To add to the problems, I was experiencing short runs.

Dean and Richie dug into the model’s nose and tried to find an obvious answer, but the problem persisted. I changed out the tank, the fuel line, the engine, and the pipe, but nothing seemed to work. To fix the under-run problem Dean concocted an idea to use a length of large diameter fuel tubing coiled up in the tank compartment as an auxiliary tank. It held just enough fuel to enable me to finish the pattern. It looked very odd all snaked around in the tank compartment and we nicknamed it the “Slaussen Cutoff” (with apologies to Johnny Carson and Carol Wayne…).

Even with all these problems I was able to coax the ship through a couple of competition patterns that were good enough to get me into the finals (Top-20 day). We burnt the midnight oil the night before the finals in search of the problem. I had designed this clever little fueling manifold that would allow me to move the tank around in the compartment and have the actual fill and overflow lines run from the tank to the manifold. These were the only two fuel lines I hadn’t checked or replaced. It turns out that I did not properly de-burr the ends of the brass tubing in the manifold to which the lines from the tank connected. Over time the flexible fuel tubing vibrated against the burred ends of the brass tubing and cracks formed in the fuel tubing that allowed air to get into the system and in turn cause all the engine run problems. The one thing I didn’t check proved to be the problem. There’s a lesson there…

Finals day dawned cooler and with incredibly high winds. The Crossfire’s engine/pipe system was back to working perfectly, and the ship and I responded with at least a respectable performance to capture eighth place. I had hoped for more, and I had certainly hoped to present our new power system in a much better manner than I did. It would take a couple of years for the other fliers to forget that horrible performance and take a serious look at the piped system. My bad.


Yeah, that was indeed a horrible experience for me, but a couple of years later Billy did a reset at the 1989 FAI Team Trials. He convincingly won that contest with his pipe-equipped Junar. At that point everyone took notice of the pipe system and the rest is history.

Later - Bob

 

Offline John Park

  • Agricola
  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 461
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2021, 07:46:03 AM »
Yeah, how about it, Brett; if I had listened to those who told me stuff I thought up wouldn't work all my career, I wouldn't have achieved too much. Thinking outside the box is easy for those of us who never had the key to get into the box in the first place. Richie Tower didn't even know there was a box to think outside of...

Later - Bob
Whenever I see something like this, I'm reminded of the perfect example of how true it is (apologies if I've used this quote before).  Discussing his design of the first practical gas turbine aero-engine, Frank Whittle remarked: "It's a good job I was such a bad engineer that I didn't know it wouldn't work!"
You want to make 'em nice, else you get mad lookin' at 'em!

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13732
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2021, 10:59:05 AM »
LOL! Yeah, that was a tough time in my life indeed. I even received physical threats over it.

   Unfortunately, you were only the first of many. Over the next 15 years!  And I still occasionally get emails about how to modify a 40VF to run "like a real stunt motor". 

    What strikes me the most is how many people are *completely out of touch* with everything that has happened in stunt *during the most remarkable era of development since the early 50s*. My minor contribution to it was the "small engine experiment" which more-or-less attempted to replicate the performance improvement from the "schneurle wars" (started by you and Rich Tower as noted above) for smaller and simpler conditions sized for typical trainers - an effect that had been "discovered" and not followed up with several times earlier.

    Of course no one is compelled to follow along, there's nothing wrong with that, but when you see people struggle with things and yet still disregard 30-year-old and well-tested solutions to exactly the problem they are having, it does get a little frustrating.

      Brett

Online Bob Hunt

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2702
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2021, 11:07:12 AM »
10-4 to all of that, Brett! y1 But I must add to the list of those who started the "Schneurle Wars" The original three were Richie, Dean Pappas ,and me; and Billy Werwage was added to that list of conspirators... Like the Led Zeppelin song said, "Good times, bad times."   

Bob
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 08:30:06 AM by Bob Hunt »

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22769
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2021, 12:57:38 PM »
Bobby, that is quite a story.  It is amazing the little things we miss that cause us grief.  My son and I went to the middle school to get some flights in.  He was flying.  I would start the engine and launch.  Every thing fine for a few laps and then engine would go lean and quit.  Finally when I was ready to stomp the engine into the ground, JJ said you fly let me start it.  He fired the engine and then shut it down.  Asked for fuel line and replaced the section between tank and filter.   Seems he saw bubbles I didn't see.   We flew until our local officer showed up in the parking lot.  We had about six flights and I told JJ lets go.  Waved to the officer and started rolling up the lines.  He blipped his siren and left. D>K

I am amazed how dwdicated you guys are to this event called stunt.  Thanks for the story. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Alexey Gorbunov

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 73
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2021, 01:17:36 PM »
      Of course no one is compelled to follow along, there's nothing wrong with that, but when you see people struggle with things and yet still disregard 30-year-old and well-tested solutions to exactly the problem they are having, it does get a little frustrating.

      Brett

Brett, very, very good words. But where is it now possible to at least read about your experiments 30 years ago? Since the end of the 80s, I have not dealt with control lines and now I have to collect your old and long-proven experience bit by bit and my own experiments.

Online Robert Zambelli

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2922
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2021, 01:41:36 PM »
The Tango, by Luciano Compostella of Monza Italy was a beautiful and superb flying design.
He designed it around the Super Tiger 46 and won many events with it - he was an incredible pilot.
I met him when I was doing engineering work for Agusta Helicopter in Cascina de Costa, outside of Milan.
We communicated quite a bit until his death a few years back.
The Tango is a stunning design and a bit different than its contemporaries, having an upright engine placement.
Span: 57 in
Area: 589 in sq
OAL: 40.25
Weight: 60 oz
10/6 three blade prop

In anyone is interested, I can have the plans copied and sent to you.

Bob Z.




Back in the day , 60 span, 60 oz. was considered the max for the ST 46 .

Compostellas Tango was thus . on 3% Nitro with extra head gaskets but a 10x6 three blade & in a two stroke. It was said . Garnered from magaines of that era .



This things 64 span 65 Oz, .210 Intake on a carefully bedded in engine, No Overheating theory . Pulls it well , on a 12 x 5 in say 8 knot or less air .
Not configured for wind anyway .

Best to do initial runs on a cool day, 30 % oil . A few bursts on prime. a few 5 then ten then 30 sec. runs . theory being remove any high spots before they get hot enough to ' pick up '
Some of us though have faith in the engineering . If the unions , metal wrkers strikes , & so on , wernt in effect when made .

Backing of to say a Mk II T-Bird , should see it last indefinately . If flushed & oiled post use .
After a few hours running maybe 23 % Oil . 20C 3 S would be fine . Tom Lay was a Orl Castor advocate .  Flush , crc, then oil .

Dry Castor sticks the ring , no good. Tom advocated the RING would last twice as long on Castror than 50/50 C&S .

Dunno if the rings wernt varied for chromed ( hard ) bore & later soft - Youd think they would. The Hardened Bowman rings are still available .

Offline Chuck_Smith

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2021, 10:00:09 AM »
Wow Bob, cool plane but I love the funky landing gear arrangement.
AMA 76478

Online Robert Zambelli

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2922
Re: WHAT MODEL WOULD YOU CHOOSE FOR A ST.46?
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2021, 10:09:27 AM »
And his landing gear system works.
I've flown with him many times when I was working in Italy.
The most impressive thing - NO BOUNCE.

Bob Z.


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here