stunt crash at whitter on 10/17/09

[Joey Mathison 9806]

at whitter during our speed contest a stunt plane flew into our pit and crashed into a chair that some one was sitting in. the question i have is from center of chair to center of stunt circle was 91' the stunt flier seemed upset and thought we were to close the plane was not a flyaway it was still hooked up to the handel and the lead outs. what do you guys think are we to close.

[Elwyn Aud]

I would prefer to see at least 20 feet between circle edges and these would be at least 160 foot diameter circles. I'm assuming the stunt flier must have strayed from the center of the circle. Was the stunt circle center marked clearly?

[Richard Grogan]

If he was flying on 60' lines, he walked 31' away from center circle. Or someone moved the pit 31' closer to his circle.

[Tom Niebuhr]

Whittier has been there for years. Sounds like the guy wandered way off his circle. This is UNFORGIVABLE.

Many of the older flying sites were originally set up for 60ft lines, but this is no excuse. You cannot use this as an excuse for your own mistakes.

[Russell Shaffer]

Unforgivable is a big word.  None of us are getting any younger and there are many things that could have caused a pilot to wander, although that is a long ways.  Shucks, maybe the guy was having a stroke. 

[Dennis Adamisin]

Ya know even if the guy was on full 70' lines, he would have had to wander a LONG way to hit a chair at 91'  - and it would have been obvious to everyone that he was way off the center.  Is there any chance that the 91' chair was really a lot closer than that?

[Joey Mathison 9806]

the 91' is correct the guy did not speak english  and it was hard to tell him that he should so some concern that the guy sitting in his chair in the pit area of a sanctioned by ama speed contest was ok and not hurt but he and his wife seemed intent on trying to blame us for his mistake.

[Dick Pacini]

Unless the pilot was running toward the chair and assuming the plane was doing 5 1/2 second laps, it's strange that the folks in the pit area didn't see the plane getting closer and closer.

Interesting that he couldn't speak English but was able to be aware of and enter a contest,  understand enough to take his place on the roster and follow the cues from the judges.

I have had experiences with people who seemed not to understand English but they really did and well.  They used their foreign tongue as a defense mechanism to avoid conversation or confrontation with others.  That may have been the case in this instance.

[Joey Mathison 9806]

not sure if you understood me but i never said anything about a stunt contest the fellow in the chair was working on his jet speed airplane and had his back toward where the guy that was flying his stunt plane. if this plane had been a foot higher i am sure there would been someone hurt.   

[Dick Pacini]

not sure if you understood me but i never said anything about a stunt contest the fellow in the chair was working on his jet speed airplane and had his back toward where the guy that was flying his stunt plane. if this plane had been a foot higher i am sure there would been someone hurt.   

Sorry, my mistake. 

[Hoss Cain]

the 91' is correct the guy did not speak english  and it was hard to tell him that he should so some concern that the guy sitting in his chair in the pit area of a sanctioned by ama speed contest was ok and not hurt but he and his wife seemed intent on trying to blame us for his mistake.

Hey, maybe he was using an old Jim Walker U-Reely and was letting the lines out. 

I have a very old kit in the barn -- forget the name right now -- and the designer made a big thing about using the u-reely to let the lines out to over a 100 ft, then reel them in. 40" wingspan and powered by a Super Cyke.
Maybe I can edit this tomorrow with the name of the machine and designer. Just a brain thing if there is a brain. 

[Chris McMillin]

at whitter during our speed contest a stunt plane flew into our pit and crashed into a chair that some one was sitting in. the question i have is from center of chair to center of stunt circle was 91' the stunt flier seemed upset and thought we were to close the plane was not a flyaway it was still hooked up to the handel and the lead outs. what do you guys think are we to close.

Sounds like he wandered a long way out of the center, Joey. The pits aren't too close, but they are not protected from the Stunt circle either. Heads up, it's a public park and anyone with an AMA card can use it!
Chris...

[PerttiMe]

... even if the guy was on full 70' lines, ...  LONG way to hit a chair at 91' 

Is that long? 20' + distance. Close enough to the length of a pickup truck. If someone were flying anything that close to me, I'd be paying attention to it, or move away.

I wasn't there. Don't know the place. But from what I read here, the setup wasn't quite ideal from the safety point of view either.

[Greg Howie]

well obviously you were too close to this guy ! however the man in charge in this case was the pilot flying the stunt job into the spectator/participant . This story is not told in a way that's easy to fallow and the more it unfolds the stranger it is getting. I would not be surprised that there will be some kind of insurance scam/fraud being played out at the benefit of all victims / witness .  Too weired to be true . I am guessing that's a set up to defraud the ama for some insurance money . being that the wife wanted to make a deal out of it ,even thought no injures were reported . Then the no speak e da english but i have a jet job and know how to sue you . It stinks  

[Dick Fowler]

Well it seems pretty obvious that the spectators were not too close.. The guy had wandered at a min. 21 feet (assuming 70ft. lines) from the center of the circle which defines the flying area and dictates the spectator saftety zone. As far as the flyer getting any claim started.... he was where he shouldn't have been and holding the handle...good luck with that.

[frank williams]

Sometimes I've seen a package of Sullivan ready made lines that said 70 ft, actually be more like 80+ feet. 
Also, his sounds like this is not a stunt flyer issue, but a novice flying on the "stunt circle" issue.

[Bob Heywood]

at whitter during our speed contest a stunt plane flew into our pit and crashed into a chair that some one was sitting in. the question i have is from center of chair to center of stunt circle was 91' the stunt flier seemed upset and thought we were to close the plane was not a flyaway it was still hooked up to the handel and the lead outs. what do you guys think are we to close.

Joey,

This isn't much to work with but some things stand out.

Were the speed pits too close to the other circle? I would not be comfortable having a working pit area 20 to 30 ft from an active flight path, especially one to my back or even my side. 60 mph is 88 ft/sec so things can happen pretty quickly. You know at Dayton we sometimes have overflights from the R/C guys and even that is a bit disconcerting.

The wierd part of this is how the stunt plane got where it did and why it hit something pretty close to the ground. On a couple of occasions I have tried to walk my flight center some distance. It isn't all that easy. So...assuming the guy managed to move, say 30 ft, that's a bit of a trick.

Are there other details you haven't posted?

[Balsa Butcher]

Having flown on the Whittier Narrows stunt circles when the speed circle was in use, my guess is that the speed pits were where they have always been for say, the past 20 or so years. They are also no closer to the stunt circle than the stunt pits and further away from where the carrier pits would have been if they were flying that event. If I am wrong with this assertion, please correct me.

I guess and obvious answer here is to move the speed pits to another side of the circle but it is too bad that the responsible fliers have to constantly make adjustments to protect themselves from the few careless fliers who show up from time to time.

Still, for future reference, it is not a good idea to turn your back on any working circle that you are in close proximity of just as it is not a good idea to turn your back on traffic. This is a lesson I learned the hard way while living another life as a Highway Patrolman. 

[George]

Since we are guessing and speculating here, my GUESS is that the Stunt guy was a novice with perhaps a new plane (or not well trimmed one) and was running backwards to maintain line tension and strayed too far from the center...his bad.

George

[Balsa Butcher]

Accidents happen, at least no one was hurt. The bigger issue is the errant flier's refusal to accept responsibility and attempt to shift the blame to the lay out of the field and the other party. 

[Andrew Borgogna]

I am a regular flier at Whittier please give me some details.  I am assuming you were not flying on the speed circle with the fence around it.  That leaves the two side by side stunt circles and the one carrier circle in the grass.  Where was the person sitting in the chair that was hit?  What was the persons location relative to the two stunt circles (assuming these are the circles we are talking about)?  If the chair was between the circles, where judges like to sit because of prevailing winds, that would greatly cut the distance.  I am really interested in all the details, our club the Knights of the Round Circle are working with the powers that be to keep this site and improve it.  We do not want to loose this site because of something like this. Finally was there any injuries associate with the incident?

If the person who saw this does not want to give this information on the forum please email me or Larry Renger with the details including if you have it the name of the flier.  Larry is the current president of the Knights and it looks like I will be on the board next year and help will be greatly appreciated.
Andy Borgogna

[Jim Rhoades]

l was right there when it happened.  We were having a speed and racing contest so the speed and racing cirdcles were in use by the contest.  The Stunt circle between had been unused all morning as most of the flyers had gone to Clovis for the Golden State Stunt Champs.  As the Stunt circle was unused the speed pit expanded closer than usual to the stunt circle.  I recall that the stunt flyer flew a previous flight evidently with no problem.  In this instance he was in the process of taking off and was about 1 ft off the ground when the outboard wing hit the stool midway between the fuselage and tip.  The stool was 4 to 5 ft beyond the outer circle at its closest point.  I placed the model on the ground exactly as it was where the collision occurred and the handle was at least 5 to 6 ft outside the inner circle.  I don't know the radius of the circles but the model was on full 70 ft lines.  It was an SV11 or such with a piped engine.  The pilot does speak english but as a 2nd language.  He was quite upset and felt he had been wronged.  He had talked to me earlier about the contest in Clovis and it sounded to me like he probably wanted to go up to Clovis later so he could fly expert PA on sunday as I did.

Personally I would have not set up so close to the circle but when the person did the circle had not been used at all that morning while it would normally have been if there was not a stunt contest elsewhere.  If I were going to fly on that circle I certainly would have noticed the close proximity of the speed pit and moved to the south side of the inner circle to allow ample room.  One could move ones center 20 to 30 ft south and not interfere with the activities in the next circle.
It was an unfortunate happening but luckily no one was hurt.  A nice model lost its outboard wing.  If the model had been a foot higher and 18 inches further out a very serious injury could have happened.  Luckily it didn't happen.

A little common sense is necessary on everyones part so another occurrence like this doesn't happen with more serious results

Jim Rhoades

[Balsa Butcher]

I removed one of my posts because it was based on speculation. Thanks for clearing things up Jim. I still maintain that a flier, especially and expert, should make sure that the circle is clear before launching. A simple request to move the pits back a bit (even in broken english) probably would have alleviated this incident. Also, keep your plane within the boundaries of the circle, even on take-off. 

[don Burke]

As noted the airplane was 91 feet from the center of the marked circle.  The flyer was completely wrong in what he did.  He was obviously completely oblivious to anyone or anything else around him.  His launch point was on the outer circle, so when he went out to the lines he strayed far from the marked pilot's circles.

There is a simple solution to the problem in the future.  The permit from the park is for the Control line area.  We have always allowed practice flying in the North circle during our events.  Because of this incident when I am CD I will not allow ANY flying in the north circle while we are either flying racing or speed at WN.  I hope that others will do the same.  It's a shame we have to shut it down, but it's just not worth taking the chance.

[John Stiles]

Wouldn't happen with a pea gravel warning track around the circle's center. I use a pole in my field, and noone has ever strayed. if they do............they muight hit a tree instead of a person. JMHO

[don Burke]

Flying without cranial-rectal insertion is the real answer to the problem!

[Randy Bush]

I've attached an aerial view of the Whittier site.  Speed circle on left, stunt circle on right, and racing circle on bottom.  I hope this will aid the discussion. 

I've added a line 75 feet long that starts on the 15 foot radius circle in the stunt circle and heads toward the speed pits.  It appears to me that a pilot standing on the 15-foot radius circle could hit a chair at the 91-foot mark with his outboard wing. ---  Could the stunt pilot have mistakenly taken off from the 15 ft(racing/pitting circle) rather than the 5-ft radius stunt pilot's circle??

Please note how visible the markings are.  Kudos to those responsible for maintaining the field.

The unregulated, public grass area to the right is only 86 feet from the center of the stunt circle, i.e. closer than the damaged chair.

Note:  The dimensions above are based on scaling from the Google Earth aerial view and their "ruler" function.  Accuracy = ?  My guess 1 to 2 feet.

Randy

[Andrew Borgogna]

Jim
Thanks for the update.  Thank God nobody was hurt, but as you pointed out it could have been much worst.  Could you please make up a drawing  of the field showing where the pilot was standing and where the person who's chair was hit was sitting.  As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.  Something wrong happened and we must take the time to analyze the situation and make sure it does not happen again.  Again my email address is available for one on one conversation. 

In the general area of control line flying stunt, speed and combat have coexisted for well over 40 years I for one will work very hard to keep it that way.  Jim your help will be greatly appreciated.
Andy Borgogna

[don Burke]

Randy,

The dark spot on the far right of the the top right circle is where he was starting his airplane, I saw his airplane sitting there in between flights.  Almost everyone who flies on that circle uses the same location, it's closest to the "pits", ergo the dark spot.  With his 70' lines he had to be OUTSIDE the 15' radius circle (4-6' depending on arm stretch) in order to hit a chair 91' feet from the center of the circle.   Still a case of cranial-rectal insertion IMO.

[Joey Mathison 9806]

it looked to me like the fellow was standing about where the red dot is.