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Author Topic: Webb Space Telescope  (Read 9851 times)

Offline Elwyn Aud

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Webb Space Telescope
« on: December 25, 2021, 09:25:06 AM »
I see they successfully got it launched and on its way. Seems like it was one of the most glitch free launches I've seen recently. No last minute delays or hiccups. Hope it lives up to all the hype. It will take it a month to reach its destination orbit of 1 million miles. Should be free from orbiting space debris at that distance. (Yes, I know that's not the reason for the chosen  orbiting spot.)

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2021, 12:42:37 PM »
Now we will all see the truth.

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2021, 03:27:03 PM »
Now we will all see the truth.

Motorman 8)

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Online Mike Griffin

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2021, 04:33:40 PM »
Now we will all see the truth.

Motorman 8)


Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2021, 08:48:55 PM »
I still can't believe there are people believing the Earth is flat after all the pictures taken from space of the Big Blue Marble called Earth. D>K
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2021, 10:43:57 PM »
I still can't believe there are people believing the Earth is flat after all the pictures taken from space of the Big Blue Marble called Earth. D>K
Yes indeed. It does trouble the mind trying to grasp how grown, educated, people can believe such nonsense.  That, and their companion idea that gravity isn’t real, things just have weight……. LL~ LL~ LL~

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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2021, 11:55:35 PM »
I still can't believe there are people believing the Earth is flat after all the pictures taken from space of the Big Blue Marble called Earth. D>K
I have it on good authority that those pictures were in fact of a big blue marble. D>K

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Offline kevin king

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2021, 01:08:05 AM »
If the earth really was flat the millennials would be falling off the edge taking selfies by now.

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2021, 02:13:24 AM »
A truly awesome piece of equipment. The final assembly was done just down the street from me in the NG High Bay, formerly TRW. Having worked on deployment mechanisms, pin-pullers and insulation blankets in the past, what these guys are attempting is amazing in terms of the sequential complexity. A long string of successes must occur just for all the mechanisms to deploy. They showed a pin release module during the NASA live feed. Something like 107(?) of the things all have to work exactly right when activated. And, each one is separately cross-strapped (redundant).  I was most excited to see the initial deployment of the solar panel from the trans-stage camera as the two continued separation. That is a very rare sight...

Way too cool....

Dave

PS--If you guys haven't heard of the "Birds Aren't Real" phenomenon, you might want to check it out so you can see behind some of the stuff you hear.  Some of the young folks have run around the last few years (especially on the internet) telling anyone and everyone that birds aren't real. They are drones. Drones the government is using for surveillance. And other things.

The reality is this is their way of protesting a lot of nonsense crap that people repeat over and over as if it is true. So if someone started telling them about the flat earth, they would happily agree and then start telling the person that birds aren't real.

The logic can be extended to other topics if you wish....

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2021, 02:17:56 PM »
I had a young man in my A&P class who was convinced the we have never landed a man on the moon. I didn't probe just exactly how far his denial of reality is but asked him why he felt such was true and I pointed out that I had watched the landing live. His reply was we had massive conspiracies back then. True but the ability to pull off something like fake the landing would be much more difficult than actually doing it. Especially fooling tens of thousands of people working in the program. He didn't believe in the space shuttle either, to which I asked him if he'd ever been to Florida and seen the boosters or a launch. Or been to Edwards to see a landing. Of course he hadn't. He didn't have much to say when I explained to him that my father had been one of the people who worked out the 6 DOF calculations necessary for docking in space and that I personally had seen the Saturn V booster, a shuttle launch and a shuttle land.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2021, 02:26:34 PM »
I had a young man in my A&P class who was convinced the we have never landed a man on the moon. I didn't probe just exactly how far his denial of reality is but asked him why he felt such was true and I pointed out that I had watched the landing live. His reply was we had massive conspiracies back then. True but the ability to pull off something like fake the landing would be much more difficult than actually doing it. Especially fooling tens of thousands of people working in the program. He didn't believe in the space shuttle either, to which I asked him if he'd ever been to Florida and seen the boosters or a launch. Or been to Edwards to see a landing. Of course he hadn't. He didn't have much to say when I explained to him that my father had been one of the people who worked out the 6 DOF calculations necessary for docking in space and that I personally had seen the Saturn V booster, a shuttle launch and a shuttle land.

  It's really kind of pointless to argue with these guys, they are the prototypes for the Dunning-Kruger effect, reality means something entirely different for them than the rest of us.

    Brett

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2021, 02:45:47 PM »
  It's really kind of pointless to argue with these guys, they are the prototypes for the Dunning-Kruger effect, reality means something entirely different for them than the rest of us.

    Brett

I had  to look that up. I think it is clear this individual was definitely in that zone. Although, I have to say with so much VR capability today it is easy to see how such skepticism could be formed. Kids less than 30 have grown up with technology that could be harnessed to purpurate such a feet. But not in the time when we did it. They don't understand that. To them, using a slide rule is unimaginable let alone flying to the moon without super computers on board.

Resulting random thought, I used to have a small slide rule in my flying box for calculating speed. 

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2021, 03:24:58 PM »
... and that I personally had seen the Saturn V booster, a shuttle launch and a shuttle land.

Well, clearly you're part of the conspiracy!
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2021, 03:26:40 PM »
Looks like the first test images are in!
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2021, 03:45:05 PM »
They're going to place this thing 100 million miles out and it will orbit the sun. It will not be in earth orbit.

Gee, doesn't the earth orbit the sun? So, if need be, how will they make repairs?

9 billion dollars and they cannot service it. By design? Gee, they thought of everything.

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2021, 05:14:59 PM »
Mention Dunning-Kruger and up he pops...


They're going to place this thing 100 million miles out and it will orbit the sun. It will not be in earth orbit.

Gee, doesn't the earth orbit the sun? So, if need be, how will they make repairs?

9 billion dollars and they cannot service it. By design? Gee, they thought of everything.

    So, given your extraordinary experience in aerospace engineering, and generalized genius-level intellect, what are your thoughts on the albedo thermal input?   Those irredeemable dummies at Northrop-Grumman and NASA await your inputs with bated breath!

  Brett
« Last Edit: December 26, 2021, 10:14:48 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2021, 05:31:52 PM »
I had  to look that up. I think it is clear this individual was definitely in that zone. Although, I have to say with so much VR capability today it is easy to see how such skepticism could be formed. Kids less than 30 have grown up with technology that could be harnessed to purpurate such a feet. But not in the time when we did it. They don't understand that. To them, using a slide rule is unimaginable let alone flying to the moon without super computers on board.

    Having a very powerful computer would undoubtedly make it harder and more expensive - because if you have that capacity, someone will feel compelled to use it. Meaning, you run afoul of the most dreaded words in the aerospace industry - software development (with the associated programming guilds/cults).

Quote
Resulting random thought, I used to have a small slide rule in my flying box for calculating speed.

    I use a slide rule about 3 times a day at work. That, or a calculator -  even though I have professional versions of MATLAB with every conceivable toolbox on 4 separate computers, and FORTRAN and C/C++ compilers.

     Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2021, 07:25:15 PM »
    I use a slide rule about 3 times a day at work. That, or a calculator -  even though I have professional versions of MATLAB with every conceivable toolbox on 4 separate computers, and FORTRAN and C/C++ compilers.

     Brett

My son and wife (both software engineers) were recently expressing disbelief at me that FORTRAN is still a current language (we were talking about scientific computing packages, and how they all sit on top of the same LINPACK, EIGENPACK and BLAS code).  If it weren't for the mention of a slide rule, I'd show them this quote.
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2021, 07:34:23 PM »
Well, clearly you're part of the conspiracy!

Don't tell anyone please.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2021, 08:16:09 PM »
My son and wife (both software engineers) were recently expressing disbelief at me that FORTRAN is still a current language (we were talking about scientific computing packages, and how they all sit on top of the same LINPACK, EIGENPACK and BLAS code).  If it weren't for the mention of a slide rule, I'd show them this quote.

  FORTRAN is still the primary language of engineering, at least as far as most of our systems are concerned. Garbage languages like Java, Perl, Python MATLAB, and even the accursed Excel and other script-kiddie languages are sometimes used for analysis tools (that don't directly contribute to the mission). There has been some use of C++, which brings with it the stench of object-oriented programming, which is OK for some applications but not a great choice for life-critical systems.

    Brett

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2021, 10:10:25 PM »
Yes indeed. It does trouble the mind trying to grasp how grown, educated, people can believe such nonsense.  That, and their companion idea that gravity isn’t real, things just have weight……. LL~ LL~ LL~

Gary

 Yeah, and the same people are allowed to participate in our elections.
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2021, 04:14:53 AM »
"Yeah, and the same people are allowed to participate in our elections"

yes , early, often, mail in, and in person, sans any ID check in many places
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Offline John Hammonds

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2021, 06:35:33 AM »
They're going to place this thing 100 million miles out and it will orbit the sun. It will not be in earth orbit.

Just to correct you Charles it's 1 million miles not 100 million miles. (So only just over 4 times the distance to the moon).

TTFN
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2021, 11:16:23 AM »
Just to correct you Charles it's 1 million miles not 100 million miles. (So only just over 4 times the distance to the moon).

   And I am sure Charles will explain to us all the physics behind the LaGrange points, and the relevance of them to this mission, so as to point out how NASA got it all wrong.

        Brett

Online Mike Griffin

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2021, 12:02:20 PM »
Just to correct you Charles it's 1 million miles not 100 million miles. (So only just over 4 times the distance to the moon).

TTFN
John.

Thank you John, you beat me to it.  100 million miles would put it just a little less than halfway to Mars.


Mike

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2021, 12:17:19 PM »
Looks like the first test images are in!
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Online Mike Scholtes

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2021, 12:40:00 PM »
So, conspiracy-theory jokes aside, can one of our qualified engineer types explain to us who are in awe of the technology but don't have degrees in astrophysics what this new telescope will do for science? I get that it is a big deal but lack the ability to understand just how big.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2021, 12:58:12 PM »
So, conspiracy-theory jokes aside, can one of our qualified engineer types explain to us who are in awe of the technology but don't have degrees in astrophysics what this new telescope will do for science? I get that it is a big deal but lack the ability to understand just how big.

   It's not *that* big a deal for science, but does advance the cause. This telescope works in infrared, unlike Hubble that operates in (largely) visible light. Hubble is necessarily limited in scope because of the "red shift" phenomenon - the further away something is, the older it is and the the faster it is going away from us, meaning that the light is subject to Doppler shifts to lower frequencies - towards the "red". At some point, things are so far away that Hubble can't see it because the light is shifted too far. Looking at IR expands this scope, it can see further back in time.

    The other phenomenon that matters is that the Earth's atmosphere absorbs and reflects a large fraction of IR light, so you can't put this type of telescope on the ground without it becoming disproportionately large, and in any case it absorbs different frequencies of IR to different degrees.

    So, effectively, this telescope will allow us to view much older objects with uncorrupted spectra, with a reasonably-sized telescope.

     BTW there are very good (and fairly obvious) reasons that you want to move this telescope out of low Earth orbit, and additional reasons to put it at a legrange point, but I want to send Charles into a panic trying to figure it out before he changes the subject. The best engineering reason is, apparently, not directly stated on the internet, but obvious nonetheless. Needless to say, the people at NASA who specified the spacecraft, and the people at Northrup-Grumman (formerly TRW) who designed and built it (along with the 3-400 spacecraft they have built to date) know *exactly what they are doing*, succeed or fail.

     Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2021, 01:13:39 PM »
So, effectively, this telescope will allow us to view much older objects with uncorrupted spectra, with a reasonably-sized telescope.

It turns out it's also ideal for looking at new stars being formed, along with their new planets.  It's expected to be able to sense the atmospheric composition of earth-sized planets, and to tell if the twice-earth sized planets out there are giant earth-like planets, or miniature Neptune-like planets.

Needless to say, the people at NASA who specified the spacecraft, and the people at Northrup-Grumman (formerly TRW) who designed and built it (along with the 3-400 spacecraft they have built to date) know *exactly what they are doing*, succeed or fail.

Oh, you would say that.
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Online Mike Scholtes

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2021, 01:47:55 PM »
Thanks all, that gives me at least a basic understanding of how it differs from Hubble and Earth-based telescopes.

To bring me back down to Earth again, today I got a Christmas card from an old modelling buddy featuring two Super Ringmasters! That kind of technology, I can understand!

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2021, 01:51:09 PM »
Oh, you would say that.

   I note that I work for neither one, I just have professional respect for their capabilities.

      Brett


Offline Mark wood

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2021, 02:05:24 PM »
   I note that I work for neither one, I just have professional respect for their capabilities.

      Brett

The lab where I worked at ASU was in the same Physics department basement as the guys who helped design and build the Humble Telescope. They had some awesome stuff to play with.
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Offline Dave Harmon

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2021, 02:25:40 PM »
   .............the physics behind the LaGrange points, and the relevance of them to this mission, so as to point out how NASA got it all wrong.

        Brett

Awww crap!!!!
At first I thought you were talking about music not this other junk!!!

Offline Dave Harmon

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2021, 02:26:29 PM »
They gott'a lott'a nice girls ha.

You rat!!
You beat me tuit by a few secs....

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2021, 02:44:43 PM »
   It's not *that* big a deal for science, but does advance the cause. This telescope works in infrared, unlike Hubble that operates in (largely) visible light. Hubble is necessarily limited in scope because of the "red shift" phenomenon - the further away something is, the older it is and the the faster it is going away from us, meaning that the light is subject to Doppler shifts to lower frequencies - towards the "red". At some point, things are so far away that Hubble can't see it because the light is shifted too far. Looking at IR expands this scope, it can see further back in time.

     Brett

   This part about looking back in time is what interests me, and wondering what we will see. I'm having trouble comprehending this concept. Everything else will be gravy! Time to most of us is relative to a clock or calendar. Once it's operational, how will what it sees relate to us , here and now? I'm not really sure how to ask the question!!??
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2021, 03:12:46 PM »
   This part about looking back in time is what interests me, and wondering what we will see. I'm having trouble comprehending this concept. Everything else will be gravy! Time to most of us is relative to a clock or calendar. Once it's operational, how will what it sees relate to us , here and now? I'm not really sure how to ask the question!!??
   HAPPY NEW YEAR!
   Dan McEntee

At least on cosmological scales, older = further away, because the universe expands.  Seeing the first stars will confirm some tentative theories, and contradict others.  Then we'll learn more.

Philosophically, it's worth it just to know more.

Practically, no one can foresee a use -- but that's what Hertz said about radio waves when he proved their existence.  I think that trying to predict the power output of stars was also considered to be a pointless endeavor back in the 1920's, except that the problems we had with it led to a far better and more complete understanding of quantum mechanics -- and without quantum mechanics we wouldn't have a lot of the cool technologies we have now, from electronics to medicines to metallurgy to goodness-knows-what.
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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2021, 03:33:25 PM »
Quote
  FORTRAN is still the primary language of engineering 

Holy cow!  We were using that back when I got my first job out of college!  Those were the days when they'd bring your tray of cards back with ones sticking up side-ways: those were the ones that got chewed by the card reader or got spit out with some error code.  Or sometimes they'd drop the tray and you then had the joy of putting them all back in order.

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2021, 03:40:16 PM »
Quote
  This part about looking back in time is what interests me, and wondering what we will see. I'm having trouble comprehending this concept. 

Dan: think of it this way: everything you see arrives to your eye-ball at the speed of light.  That means that everything you see is "history" - it has already happened and took the time of distance divided by the speed of light to arrive at your eye-ball.  In the typical conditions of our life-experience the speed of light is essentially instantaneous so we don't notice the difference.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2021, 03:45:26 PM »
Holy cow!  We were using that back when I got my first job out of college!  Those were the days when they'd bring your tray of cards back with ones sticking up side-ways: those were the ones that got chewed by the card reader or got spit out with some error code.  Or sometimes they'd drop the tray and you then had the joy of putting them all back in order.
That dates us a bit.  COBOL used the cards too.  Did some Fortran for Grayhound back in the 80's but I learned pretty quickly that those languages were not suited for business software.  Got into BASIC, not the kiddy versions Microsoft uses but the real ones.  Still using them today and the systems I wrote in the 80's still run on the latest Windows and Unix platforms.

Ken
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2021, 09:53:06 PM »
   This part about looking back in time is what interests me, and wondering what we will see. I'm having trouble comprehending this concept. Everything else will be gravy! Time to most of us is relative to a clock or calendar. Once it's operational, how will what it sees relate to us , here and now? I'm not really sure how to ask the question!!??

   I will preface this by saying, to really understand this mathematically, you have to understand General Relativity pretty well, because the "expansion" we are talking about is space-time.

    I presume that everyone understands the general concept of the speed of light, and that the further away something is, the longer the light took to get to you, so, further away  = older. So, for example, when we get data from a Mars lander, that data was taken anything from 3 minutes to 22 minutes in the past when we receive it, depending on the distance. If it's very near us, not far, so not long, on the far side of the sun from us, it is a lot further away, so it takes much longer.

    Same thing with this, the further away it is, the longer it takes the light to get here, so in effect we are looking at something from a long time ago.

     The red-shift effect is where the analogy comes in. It's really a 4-dimensional problem, but the analogy is 3-dimensional. Suppose you have a spherical balloon, and are blowing it up slowly. Take a sharpie, and mark a dot on the surface - that's where we are. An inch away, mark another dot - a nearby object. Then mark a dot exactly the other side of the sphere from us - a distant object. As the balloon expands, the nearby object moves away from you, but pretty slow. The dot on the far side moves much faster away from you.

   Blowing up the balloon, making it bigger and bigger, is analogous to the universe expanding. Of course, the universe does not fall on the surface of a big 3-dimensional sphere or bubble, it's a 4-dimensional sphere or bubble (but not uniform...).

     A 4-d version of that is what the universe is doing - nearby objects move slowly away from you, and far-away objects move faster. The faster they go, the more the doppler shift they get, so, distant/fast moving objects have a lot of doppler shift, visible light toward the red, and then further, to the infrared, and ultimately towards radio wave. So something that looks like, say, a normal star from nearby, might only be seen as a radio source from a long distance.

    This red-shift means that some of the visible light from the star (or galaxy, or supernova, or whatever) is shifted lower, beyond visible light, into the infrared. So to see it, you need a telescope that sees infrared. That's what this telescope does, it sees lower frequencies than visible light, therefore things with a lot of doppler shift, which means it is a long way away, which means the light travel time from that star is from *long ago*, effectively, looking at stars from the early universe.

    The math of some of this is messy, but the idea is relatively simple.

    Brett

   

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2021, 10:12:27 PM »
Holy cow!  We were using that back when I got my first job out of college!  Those were the days when they'd bring your tray of cards back with ones sticking up side-ways: those were the ones that got chewed by the card reader or got spit out with some error code.  Or sometimes they'd drop the tray and you then had the joy of putting them all back in order.

  Been there, done that. Card stacks on a CDC 3800 computer were still being used in the Air Force Satellite Control Network as recently as 1995 for orbit determination, because they couldn't get it to work with sufficient accuracy on the more modern systems (although still ancient) they had at the time.

   FORTRAN is still actively being developed, in fact, some of the stuff I do couldn't have been done in FORTRAN 77 (standard or with the DEC extensions), which some real steps forward ("ACCESS" = "STREAM", which only showed up in FORTRAN 95 for reading in raw binary data from C/C++ with no record headers or variable-length records), and embedded vector math like:

Code: [Select]
       REAL PHI_E(3), PHI_E_DOT(3), PHI_CTL(3), TAU(3) ! declare control parameters
....


       PHI_CTL = PHI_E + TAU*PHI_E_DOT

instead of writing it out like:

       
Code: [Select]
       DO I=1,3   ! loop through for each axis
            PHI_CTL(I) = PHI_E(I) + TAU(I)*PHI_E_DOT(I)
       ENDDO

   Because it can take advantage of embedded vector math processors. Tim and Howard probably recognize the purpose of such a code snippet, it is the first building block of a satellite or other control system, and completely generic.

   It also has garbage object-oriented features, and indefinite line length which I have banned from our simulations due to lack of readability, and to prevent anyone from using code libraries without understanding what is in them.

     Brett



       
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 11:02:20 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2021, 10:51:19 PM »
   I will preface this by saying, to really understand this mathematically, you have to understand General Relativity pretty well, because the "expansion" we are talking about is space-time.

    I presume that everyone understands the general concept of the speed of light, and that the further away something is, the longer the light took to get to you, so, further away  = older. So, for example, when we get data from a Mars lander, that data was taken anything from 3 minutes to 22 minutes in the past when we receive it, depending on the distance. If it's very near us, not far, so not long, on the far side of the sun from us, it is a lot further away, so it takes much longer.

    Same thing with this, the further away it is, the longer it takes the light to get here, so in effect we are looking at something from a long time ago.

     The red-shift effect is where the analogy comes in. It's really a 4-dimensional problem, but the analogy is 3-dimensional. Suppose you have a spherical balloon, and are blowing it up slowly. Take a sharpie, and mark a dot on the surface - that's where we are. An inch away, mark another dot - a nearby object. Then mark a dot exactly the other side of the sphere from us - a distant object. As the balloon expands, the nearby object moves away from you, but pretty slow. The dot on the far side moves much faster away from you.

   Blowing up the balloon, making it bigger and bigger, is analogous to the universe expanding. Of course, the universe does not fall on the surface of a big 3-dimensional sphere or bubble, it's a 4-dimensional sphere or bubble (but not uniform...).

     A 4-d version of that is what the universe is doing - nearby objects move slowly away from you, and far-away objects move faster. The faster they go, the more the doppler shift they get, so, distant/fast moving objects have a lot of doppler shift, visible light toward the red, and then further, to the infrared, and ultimately towards radio wave. So something that looks like, say, a normal star from nearby, might only be seen as a radio source from a long distance.

    This red-shift means that some of the visible light from the star (or galaxy, or supernova, or whatever) is shifted lower, beyond visible light, into the infrared. So to see it, you need a telescope that sees infrared. That's what this telescope does, it sees lower frequencies than visible light, therefore things with a lot of doppler shift, which means it is a long way away, which means the light travel time from that star is from *long ago*, effectively, looking at stars from the early universe.

    The math of some of this is messy, but the idea is relatively simple.

    Brett

 

Good job Brett. Cept it's Special Relativity which is the function of space time ie the Lorentz contraction. The one that goes E=Gamma x Mass x (speed of light)^2 , where gamma = 1/(1-V^2/C^2), which reduces to E=MC^2 when V << C and V^2/C^2 approaches 0.  This is also the principle of speed of light is a constant and it is the length as measured by the observe which changes as function of their respective inertial reference  frame L' = Gamma L. When applied to the wavelength of a photon the the redshift becomes  l' = Gamma l. General Relativity is the fabric of space where gravity is function of the local curvature of space.  The one that bends light as it passes high gravitational fields.  What you are describing is the relativistic doppler shifting of light. Anyway, you did good.

The interesting part of this is that there is a finite observable universe and this mission will explore the physics which is occurring along this threshold. There is a dependence upon exactly how cosmic inflation works. The theory is that the space time itself is growing. Within this there are some dependencies on how homogenous the universe truly is, whether it is finite or infinite.

From our point of view, we would be in region of expansion where everything around us growing. With this, as we look farther and farther away objects are moving faster away from us. There is a limit to this, the speed of light. When the expansion is such that the objects are moving relatively at the speed of light away, they can no longer be observed. Anything past that threshold can never be observed from our perspective.

;)
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2021, 10:55:04 PM »
Good job Brett. Cept it's Special Relativity which is the function of space time ie the Lorentz contraction. The one that goes E=Gamma x Mass x (speed of light)^2 , where gamma = 1/(1-V^2/C^2), which reduces to E=MC^2 when V << C and V^2/C^2 approaches 0. 

   That is indeed the primary premise of Special Relativity, however, that is not sufficient to explain the relativistic concept of space-time, which requires General Relativity to describe.

     Brett

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2021, 12:28:47 AM »
   That is indeed the primary premise of Special Relativity, however, that is not sufficient to explain the relativistic concept of space-time, which requires General Relativity to describe.

     Brett

Oh this would be an interesting in person discussion. However, contare monfrare. The relativistic nature of space time is in fact special relativity. Special Relativity can be thought of as the portions surrounding the Lorentz contraction. It is the relationship of the inertial observer with respect to how length and time change as a function of the their relative speed with each other. Doppler shifting of light is due to the speed of light being a constant in all rest frames is a fundamental tenant of special relativity. That one rest frame is moving away from another as you describe causes that doppler shift to be measured locally. Another way of thinkin about is my ruler appears to be a different than yours by a function of the rate at which we are moving relative to each other. The stars moving on a expanding sphere as you describe would similarly be doppler shifted. Therefore QED your example is in fact Special relativity.

In general relativity, gravity is derived as a function of the curvature of space-time. Within this the property of a gravitational field is such that an inertial observer in a closed box could not determine if the force from the floor is from being stationary on a massive object or is in fact in an accelerating reference frame. Within special relativity is the feature of gravitational lenses, the bending of light around massive objects which can be verified when observing solar eclipses. The relationship between gravity and space-time is two way interchangeable.

I'll concede that the expansion of the universe, cosmic inflation, does have roots within general relativity. This has more to do with the rate of expansion and whether it fluctuates or not dependent upon the total energy content. However your discussion is the result of this and consequently how the property of light behaves. It's subtle but significant. In one, General Relativity the equations are field equations. In the other, Special Relativity the equations are motion equations. Ultimately General Relativity encompasses special Relativity so in that regard, I would concede, however that's the long way around and much more difficult derivation.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 10:32:03 AM by Mark wood »
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2021, 09:44:25 AM »
"Space Time."  LL~

Someone should design a model airplane called "Scientific Theory."

Built correctly, it would carry absolutely no weight.

A few years ago a bunch of scientists, there's always a bunch, they hang out in bunches, anyway, they were so excited finding a planet so similar to earth which "they" concluded could support life.

Maybe this new "Webb Space Telescope" can take a close up photo of it.

It's only light years away in another galaxy.

Charles
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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2021, 10:23:04 AM »
"Space Time."  LL~
Someone should design a model airplane called "Scientific Theory."
Built correctly, it would carry absolutely no weight.
A few years ago a bunch of scientists, there's always a bunch, they hang out in bunches, anyway, they were so excited finding a planet so similar to earth which "they" concluded could support life.
Maybe this new "Webb Space Telescope" can take a close up photo of it.
It's only light years away in another galaxy.

Charles

Such profundity.  I am in awe.

Keith

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2021, 11:26:27 AM »
"Space Time."  LL~

Someone should design a model airplane called "Scientific Theory."

Built correctly, it would carry absolutely no weight.

A few years ago a bunch of scientists, there's always a bunch, they hang out in bunches, anyway, they were so excited finding a planet so similar to earth which "they" concluded could support life.

Maybe this new "Webb Space Telescope" can take a close up photo of it.

It's only light years away in another galaxy.

Charles


    Thanks for demonstrating the exactly the grasp of the situation that we all expected.

     Brett

   
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 07:27:05 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2021, 11:37:27 AM »

I'll concede that the expansion of the universe, cosmic inflation, does have roots within general relativity. This has more to do with the rate of expansion and whether it fluctuates or not dependent upon the total energy content. However your discussion is the result of this and consequently how the property of light behaves. It's subtle but significant. In one, General Relativity the equations are field equations. In the other, Special Relativity the equations are motion equations. Ultimately General Relativity encompasses special Relativity so in that regard, I would concede, however that's the long way around and much more difficult derivation.

     My point was that to really explain how space-time expands in 4D, you have to use general relativity. I was conceding that people understood the Doppler effect, whether or not they understood Special Relativity and relativistic Doppler effect.

       Brett

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2021, 01:47:07 PM »
My mind just cannot grasp infinity.  I defer to God.

Mike

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2021, 01:55:12 PM »
My mind just cannot grasp infinity.


   No one else does, either. All of our knowledge is just getting us to the point of knowing what questions to ask, we are far from any answers.

     Brett

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2021, 02:30:15 PM »
     My point was that to really explain how space-time expands in 4D, you have to use general relativity. I was conceding that people understood the Doppler effect, whether or not they understood Special Relativity and relativistic Doppler effect.

       Brett

I was initially giving you crap for not being precise. A little pay back in kind actually. ;) But then it turned into an interesting discussion on the semantics of relativity. You know, how does the engineer state Newtons second law? Newtons second law states Force is equal to the mass times acceleration. While correct it isn't accurate as the physicist points out Newton actually stated that Force is equal to the time rate of change of momentum. One cannot directly derive rocket thrust from the first version nor the force of accretion of mass on a conveyer belt while both are part of the second version. With your knowledge of orbital mechanics, I sorted that out previously some how, I pretty much figured you knew. It is fun for me to walk down memory lane. I haven't really done much more than watch since I had Modern physics and both relativity classes in college. It wasn't easy for me.
 
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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2021, 02:30:46 PM »
My mind just cannot grasp infinity.  I defer to God.

Mike

Me too.
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Offline phil c

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2021, 02:53:09 PM »
Yes indeed. It does trouble the mind trying to grasp how grown, educated, people can believe such nonsense.  That, and their companion idea that gravity isn’t real, things just have weight……. LL~ LL~ LL~

Gary

Alot of those people have it right.  When you get to the edge  it warps around, so tight you're can't sense it, and you're on the other side!!
Holy cow!  We were using that back when I got my first job out of college!  Those were the days when they'd bring your tray of cards back with ones sticking up side-ways: those were the ones that got chewed by the card reader or got spit out with some error code.  Or sometimes they'd drop the tray and you then had the joy of putting them all back in order.

People still use FORTRAN because it works, plain and simple.  There are also literally millions of FORTRAN programs that one might be a program or a piece of one that does exactly what you want.  I bet that NASA still uses it because it is proven and ready for use- something like mapping the course of a satellite and confirming that it is on the right path- both from the satellite and from the ground but using different equipment.

Also, FORTRAN users probably have a good understanding where there might be pitfalls.

I always was interested in programming, but have run into my own personal wall.  I took the first class in programming at the college I went to.  The prof waved a big, thick paperback book and said " you probably will need to pick this up.  We forgot to put it in the syllabus.  You WILL need it to do the homework".
The next year the first course was a semester course in FORTRAN.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2021, 03:00:07 PM »
Me too.
God sold the rights to Nissan.

Infinity is one of those things that is best not contemplated.  I once asked my grandmother what "World without end" meant since they were making me memorize it in Bible school.  She told me it meant infinity.  That bothered me until I was in high school and found out that it was simply division by -0-. 

Ken
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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2021, 03:29:23 PM »
Maybe this new Webb Telescope will finally answer the question,

"Do black holes really exist?"  LL~
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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2021, 04:05:14 PM »
My mind just cannot grasp infinity.  I defer to God.

Mike

A religious type, technically educated, might say "God holds the universe in himself."  Grasping infinity takes more than our minds can do.
phil Cartier

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2021, 05:16:19 PM »
Maybe this new Webb Telescope will finally answer the question,

"Do black holes really exist?"  LL~

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_A*

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2021, 08:20:17 PM »

   By the way, on the topic of why it is so far out there...

   For the rest of us, you might at first blush think that they would put it in low earth orbit like Hubble, where they can get to it. Several problems with that idea  - even in low earth orbit, with the shuttle retired, we have, right now, no way of getting to it with any significant repair capability. Soyuz could get to it in really low orbit like the space station, but has no real capability for capturing something like NGST/Webb or carrying repair parts, grappling arms, etc.

   But the big reasons are that in low earth orbit, you have A LOT of thermal input from the earth. This is called albedo heating, heating from reflected and radiated heat from the earth albedo.

   The earth is ~70 degrees, and the background of space is -450 degrees. In low earth orbit, having half the sphere of the sky filled up with a nice warm 70 degree earth imparts tremendous heat to the telescope. Since the telescope sees in infrared frequencies (heat), this is a huge noise input in the band they are looking that has to be dealt with. Of course, it also blocks half the potential targets , and may leave only 45 minutes of uninterrupted observation time if the target is in not perpendicular to the orbit plane. Additionally, if the telescope is pointing in one inertial direction, the heat input comes from different directions at pretty high frequency, causing thermal distortion of the telescope mirror that has to be dealt with.

    Putting it out at the L2 Lagrange point, a million miles away, the earth is just a tiny speck, so no real heat input and no varying directional heat  inputs. This makes it much more stable. The earth is not consequentially interfereing with the telescope field of view, so it can stare in one direction without having to consider where in the orbit it is. But mostly, it is just cold - which means, with the extraordinary effort put into the heat shields to block the sun, they can "run the telescope without any active cooling system". It stays cold enough even for an infrared mission without having to carry cryogenic coolants, that inevitably run out. This telescope's predecessor , SIRTF (built by my Denver colleagues), ran for 6 years, when it ran out of liquid helium coolant, did a reduced mission for a while, and then was deactivated. NGST/Webb does not require that, so it can last indefinitely (presumably until the stationkeeping propellant runs out).

    Putting at a Lagrange point means that there is no net secular acceleration. This happens because the various gravitational forces and centrifugal force happen to balance each other at these points. There are 5 of them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_point

   NGST/Webb is going to point 2, that it, it will stay out beyond earth's orbit around the sun, and you will be able to draw a straight line from the sun to the earth to the point. It won't stay there without some small effort to push it around and so will require some on-board propulsion to stop it once it gets there and then to nudge it around to stay, but it does not have to push against some force, because the net force is zero.

    As noted above, these guys have really thought all this out and definitely know what they are doing. I forget what our proposal for this mission was, I am sure it was credible. But Northrop-Grumman are highly competent and have a lot of experience with the sort of deployable structures dating back the deployable, moderately-large mesh antennas on the FLTSAT program dating to the early 70's. I have worked with various TRW/NG engineers as our subcontractors and over the years and on the engineering level, they are wonderful to work with, peers of equal capability.

   Having said all that, a mission like this is generally designed to have a probability of success around 70% - because trying to get 80% is disproportionately expensive. The 70% then flows down to thousands of elements, all of which must have much greater than 70% chance of making it for the whole mission. Strings of these 99.7% or so probabilities are multiplied together to get the 70%. 

    There is usually a lot of hidden conservatism, but be prepared for and aware of the chance that something *could* go wrong. That wouldn't make the people involved incompetent or lackadaisical, it means that doing these missions is very difficult and complex, and very unforgiving of even a single mistake.

       Brett




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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2021, 08:30:40 PM »
Great explanation, Brett.  Thanks.
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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2021, 08:34:51 PM »
Great explanation, Brett.  Thanks.

Second that motion.
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2021, 10:17:02 PM »
Five nines.... or you're just making Mattel....

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2021, 10:39:06 PM »
Five nines.... or you're just making Mattel....

   The highest component spec I have seen in 40-ish years is 3-sigma, that is 99.7, and the highest overall mission reliability including all sources is 75%.  99.7% on a component usually means you need a redundant unit.

   Reality, of course, is that most of these systems have nowhere near enough flights to get reasonable statistics. Agena (all types), STS, and Soyuz are the only systems I think have sufficient N to evaluate the correctness of the analysis, and all are far greater than the required reliability. Everybody has their conservatism and the reliability people sometimes underestimate/misunderstand how the probabilities should be combined, so usually it beats the mission, and sometimes by an order of magnitude.

    This includes some of the most critical systems currently used.

     Brett

Offline Mike Callas

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2021, 02:43:01 AM »
I see they successfully got it launched and on its way. Seems like it was one of the most glitch free launches I've seen recently. No last minute delays or hiccups. Hope it lives up to all the hype. It will take it a month to reach its destination orbit of 1 million miles. Should be free from orbiting space debris at that distance. (Yes, I know that's not the reason for the chosen  orbiting spot.)

The launch was relatively glitch free. However, the program had several delays due to its complexity. My company built a couple of Ka Filters for it back in 2006 or so. Back then it was supposed to launch around 2011. Glad it finally made it off the ground.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2021, 07:05:25 AM »
9 Billion dollars can get a bunch of our Vets off the street.

Is any of this investment tax dollars?

If it was, we probably wouldn't know it anyway.

For what? The more "they see," the less they know. I never understood this type of spending?

Charles

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Offline Bill Morell

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2021, 08:18:56 AM »
9 Billion dollars can get a bunch of our Vets off the street.

Is any of this investment tax dollars?

If it was, we probably wouldn't know it anyway.

For what? The more "they see," the less they know. I never understood this type of spending?

Charles

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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2021, 08:25:17 AM »
9 Billion dollars can get a bunch of our Vets off the street.

Is any of this investment tax dollars?

If it was, we probably wouldn't know it anyway.

For what? The more "they see," the less they know. I never understood this type of spending?

Charles

The interesting thing is that the technology you used to type these words are direct offshoot of the technology that was developed for the space program. Without having invested in the space program, you wouldn't be able to bitch about investing in the space program on these pages.  Without making such investments no progress is made. Yes, there are a lot of Vets on the street. Yes, we should funnel more money towards helping them but we shouldn't stop doing research.

Being able to build and launch a spacecraft a million miles in to space may seem wasteful but consider what the challenges of doing so. It requires many new technologies, new techniques, new processes and new materials. When those are developed everyone benefits, including those Vets on the street.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2021, 09:24:18 AM »
I never understood this type of spending?

Charles
I have never understood why there is so little of it.  9 billion is not going to get the Vets off of the street.  The only thing that will get vets off of the street is to stop having wars. 

Ken
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Online Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2021, 09:35:32 AM »
The interesting thing is that the technology you used to type these words are direct offshoot of the technology that was developed for the space program. Without having invested in the space program, you wouldn't be able to bitch about investing in the space program on these pages.  Without making such investments no progress is made. Yes, there are a lot of Vets on the street. Yes, we should funnel more money towards helping them but we shouldn't stop doing research.

Being able to build and launch a spacecraft a million miles in to space may seem wasteful but consider what the challenges of doing so. It requires many new technologies, new techniques, new processes and new materials. When those are developed everyone benefits, including those Vets on the street.

Not to hijack this post but I've had this conversation before. I once hitch hiked across Canada and then down the west coast, along the way I slept in all kinds of places most of us wouldn't including Sally Ann hostels and met all kinds of people, one thing I learned is, not all, but a lot of homeless are homeless by choice, they are choosing to live on the streets to give a big middle finger to society, I will not conform, it's so easy to look at the space program and say what about the homeless, well sorry a lot of those people are there by choice, hard to believe but it's true. The hard part is helping those who want the help but won't ask.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 10:48:07 AM by Dwayne Donnelly »
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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2021, 09:56:20 AM »
Not to hijack this post but I've had this conversation before. I once hitch hiked across Canada and then down the west coat, along the way I slept in all kinds of places most of us wouldn't including Sally Ann hostels and met all kinds of people, one thing I learned is, not all, but a lot of homeless are homeless by choice, they are choosing to live on the streets to give a big middle finger to society, I will not conform, it's so easy to look at the space program and say what about the homeless, well sorry a lot of those people are there by choice, hard to believe but it's true. The hard part is helping those who want the help but won't ask.

    This is so, so so true! I live in a suburb if St. Louis County. Not the best, toniest part of town but not a stereotypical are where you see a lot of homeless people. There are three home less guys that I see all over town. Lots of good hearted people buy them food, sometimes pay for a few nights in local hotel for them, give them gift cards and all sorts of stuff. They even have cell phones! And that is exactly why the hand around here. If offered a job or a permanent place to stay , they refuse it because they do not want it. One guy even has family living here, and they are thankful to people trying to help this guy out, but he is what he is and he won't change. It's a free country, (for now!!) and they aren't breaking any laws, so live and let live.
    Type at you later,
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2021, 10:04:00 AM »
Not to hijack this post but I've had this conversation before. I once hitch hiked across Canada and then down the west coat, along the way I slept in all kinds of places most of us wouldn't including Sally Ann hostels and met all kinds of people, one thing I learned is, not all, but a lot of homeless are homeless by choice, they are choosing to live on the streets to give a big middle finger to society, I will not conform, it's so easy to look at the space program and say what about the homeless, well sorry a lot of those people are there by choice, hard to believe but it's true. The hard part is helping those who want the help but won't ask.

I was about to say this as well but chose not to. My experience leans in the same direction. Many of the panhandlers actually produce a fairly decent wage. There are those whom just don't fit in society and wander aimlessly.
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2021, 10:52:09 AM »
People do have the right to view or look at things differently, don't we?

I'm sure you do agree, I cannot see how you wouldn't.

I view the "Space Industry" broad brush please, the same way I view the "Turbine Windmill Industry."

Unfortunately, you do have to have an understand the Turbine Windmill Industry, to have an inkling as to what I'm offering in this comparison.

Really similar industries but not all that obvious. "They" fix it so it's never obvious.

Charles

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2021, 11:51:28 AM »
Just ignore tha *sshole. As predicted, he got caught gassing on about something he had absolutely no clue about, panicked for a few days when he realized he had gotten caught, and then changed the subject. He knows the "wind turbine industry" about as well as he knows quantum mechanics, he had to pick something that he might get backing on.

     He also, obviously, knowns nothing about the space industry, either, and seems to think it is run/dominated by NASA - which it certainly is not. NASA has a few important civilian programs (like this 1/2 billion a year or so effort over 20 years), does have a monopoly on manned space flight, but is a *tiny* player in the space business - which is dominated by military and other defense-related agencies.

   That's why breaking out the US Space Force made perfect sense, but why everyone just tried to mock it - the DoD, mostly directed the USAF/USSF, has numerous huge programs upon which the defense of the United States (and by extension, the free world) depends, and have for more than half-a-century. They are the big players, not NASA and certainly not commercial space. No one seems to really grasp that. Acquiring and operating space assets is a fundamentally different proposition from acquiring and operating aircraft, it makes absolutely perfect sense to have broken it out as it's own command - and that move had been in the works for 25+ years.

     Brett

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2021, 12:46:37 PM »
Just ignore tha *sshole. As predicted, he got caught gassing on about something he had absolutely no clue about, panicked for a few days when he realized he had gotten caught, and then changed the subject. He knows the "wind turbine industry" about as well as he knows quantum mechanics, he had to pick something that he might get backing on.

     He also, obviously, knowns nothing about the space industry, either, and seems to think it is run/dominated by NASA - which it certainly is not. NASA has a few important civilian programs (like this 1/2 billion a year or so effort over 20 years), does have a monopoly on manned space flight, but is a *tiny* player in the space business - which is dominated by military and other defense-related agencies.

   That's why breaking out the US Space Force made perfect sense, but why everyone just tried to mock it - the DoD, mostly directed the USAF/USSF, has numerous huge programs upon which the defense of the United States (and by extension, the free world) depends, and have for more than half-a-century. They are the big players, not NASA and certainly not commercial space. No one seems to really grasp that. Acquiring and operating space assets is a fundamentally different proposition from acquiring and operating aircraft, it makes absolutely perfect sense to have broken it out as it's own command - and that move had been in the works for 25+ years.

     Brett

You have absolutely no idea what I know and don't know.

We do have different backgrounds. Can't loose sight of this.

I also stand by my comments and I am not attacking yours.

So, exactly what am I saying that disturbs you?

Charles
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2021, 08:42:05 PM »
You can track progress easily here:

https://webb.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunch/whereIsWebb.html

Dave

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2021, 12:57:24 PM »
You can track progress easily here:

https://webb.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunch/whereIsWebb.html

Dave
   

     Good nuggets on that page, including live telemetry of some temperatures (one of which is -229F  - as mentioned, it wants to be cold) and videos of the deployment sequence.

      Brett
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 10:33:59 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Mark Gerber

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2021, 01:02:08 PM »
Thanks for posting the JWST website.  I worked on it in 2007 at Ball Aerospace and I did my master's thesis at MIT on L2.

Mark Gerber

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2021, 01:12:39 PM »
Thanks for posting the JWST website.  I worked on it in 2007 at Ball Aerospace and I did my master's thesis at MIT on L2.

Mark Gerber

  So, Mark - L2 is not naturally stable, but how fast does the force build up as you move away? Is a typical stationkeeping cycle more driven by the divergent force, or does the acceleration from other bodies (like the moon) matter more?  I presume that other earth orbit effects like oblateness, triaxiality, etc, are negligible at that altitude.

     Brett

Offline Mark Gerber

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2021, 04:06:57 PM »
Brett,

I don't know which forces dominate, but the perturbing forces must be very small -- especially a million miles from Earth.  The propellant expended to keep JWST in the halo orbit around L2 is minimal.  The 14,300-pound spacecraft has only 400 lbs. of fuel which is expected to last 5-10 years.

The spacecraft will not actually be at L2 but in a large, slow orbit around it.  The diameter of the JWST halo orbit around L2 is roughly the same diameter as the moon's orbit.  The halo orbit is slanted in relation to the Earth's orbit, so the spacecraft is never in the Earth's shadow.  The period is about 6 months.  Someone referred to this as "controlled drifting."  So, the perturbing forces must not change much as you move off L2.

Mark Gerber

Online Doug Moon

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #78 on: December 30, 2021, 06:53:47 PM »
Brett,

I don't know which forces dominate, but the perturbing forces must be very small -- especially a million miles from Earth.  The propellant expended to keep JWST in the halo orbit around L2 is minimal.  The 14,300-pound spacecraft has only 400 lbs. of fuel which is expected to last 5-10 years.

The spacecraft will not actually be at L2 but in a large, slow orbit around it.  The diameter of the JWST halo orbit around L2 is roughly the same diameter as the moon's orbit.  The halo orbit is slanted in relation to the Earth's orbit, so the spacecraft is never in the Earth's shadow.  The period is about 6 months.  Someone referred to this as "controlled drifting."  So, the perturbing forces must not change much as you move off L2.

Mark Gerber

The orbit of this thing kind of blows my mind a little.

https://youtu.be/6cUe4oMk69E?list=TLGG8tIphgpDAHkzMTEyMjAyMQ

It orbits around L2. Does Earth's gravity keep it in the slanted orbit around L2? If not how does it stay in the L2 orbit? If so that is amazing that the earths gravity is so strong it can hold an object 1.5M/KM away in a specific orbit like that but at the same time it is not so strong that we can go about our normal day without being crushed to the surface of our planet. This stuff is truly amazing.

I find this whole thing incredibly fascinating. I constantly watch the stars at night with or without my telescope.
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2021, 09:53:35 PM »
As noted, temperature monitoring is crucial to the performance of the entire optics set, especially the Cassegrain, including the secondary support structure and the primary mirror reaction structure. Even a quarter of a degree would likely significantly defocus the optics since the primary secondary combo are both beryllium. Unless you have a focus drive control loop closed around the temperature map, you would always be doing calibration shots on a pinpoint source (distant star) to refocus. That wastes a huge amount of imaging time on a limited asset. My understanding is that they are counting on long-period temperature stabilization.

Dave

Offline Steve_Pollock

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2022, 06:54:50 PM »
URL of the ESA video of the JWST deployment.  The sun shade s successfully deployed.




Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #81 on: January 06, 2022, 08:05:16 PM »
Even better, the secondary mirror deployment was a success. The majority of the single-point deployment failures are behind us now....

Offline Elwyn Aud

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #82 on: January 07, 2022, 08:12:04 AM »
Glad to hear its deployment is going so smoothly. From what I understand the telescope will have to wait a couple of months for the temperatures to stabilize once it's in position before they start doing observations.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #83 on: January 07, 2022, 08:33:02 AM »
I was amazed at how complex this telescope is.  Even able to take pictures of itself deploying.  Mark, did you put one of your little boom cameras on it when they weren't looking? LL~

Ken
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #84 on: January 07, 2022, 11:39:58 AM »
I was amazed at how complex this telescope is.  Even able to take pictures of itself deploying.  Mark, did you put one of your little boom cameras on it when they weren't looking? LL~

Ken

Actually that video was taken from the booster of the observatory as it was released. The observatory itself doesn't have any cameras on it as there wouldn't be much to see without illumination which could cause problems with the instrumentation packs and is not mission necessary. I'd love to see the videos though but I was satisfied to watch the animations real time.

Thanks for the thoughts though...  <=
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Offline BillLee

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #85 on: January 07, 2022, 01:58:52 PM »
Question: what happens to the Ariane rocket that did the final burn? The one that was where the Webb was attached and which showed the separation in the video. Isn't it at the same velocity and trajectory as the Webb? Will it end up at L2 as well?
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #86 on: January 07, 2022, 04:48:56 PM »
Question: what happens to the Ariane rocket that did the final burn? The one that was where the Webb was attached and which showed the separation in the video. Isn't it at the same velocity and trajectory as the Webb? Will it end up at L2 as well?

    I am not that familiar with Ariane upper stage behavior, but in many other cases, shortly after separation, they do a collision-avoidance maneuver  at some radical angle relatively to the line of flight, to avoid exactly that. Of course, the separation rate is about 1 foot/second or so, just from the push-off springs, so after  30 days, there would be a huge separation distance in the hundred or thousands of miles.

    At any rate, the telescope has to do a delta-v maneuver to go into the halo orbit at L2. Even if was trailing along behind it, the booster would just keep on going and probably fall back towards the sun (since it has insufficient velocity to stay there).

    Brett

p.s. From the ESA website about the Webb launch:

Quote
After separation, the upper stage underwent a delicate series of contamination and collision avoidance maneuvers, making sure that its thruster plumes did not impinge on Webb and its precious optics.

Finally, an end-of-life maneuver was performed to avoid potential long term collision risks with Webb.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 06:08:58 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Mark wood

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #87 on: January 07, 2022, 06:32:18 PM »
    I am not that familiar with Ariane upper stage behavior, but in many other cases, shortly after separation, they do a collision-avoidance maneuver  at some radical angle relatively to the line of flight, to avoid exactly that. Of course, the separation rate is about 1 foot/second or so, just from the push-off springs, so after  30 days, there would be a huge separation distance in the hundred or thousands of miles.

    At any rate, the telescope has to do a delta-v maneuver to go into the halo orbit at L2. Even if was trailing along behind it, the booster would just keep on going and probably fall back towards the sun (since it has insufficient velocity to stay there).

    Brett

p.s. From the ESA website about the Webb launch:

Way cool. I was wondering the same thing myself.
Life is good AMA 1488
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Offline John Hammonds

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2022, 12:16:22 PM »
Well. It's reached L2. Now I guess we wait a little longer and then hopefully start to see what this thing is really capable of.  #^


Nasa are doing a Science Live podcast shortly.



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Offline Elwyn Aud

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #90 on: January 28, 2022, 04:29:17 AM »
If I read correctly all of the tedious tweaking to get the mirrors in alignment involves movements  less than the width of a human hair.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #91 on: January 28, 2022, 07:58:34 AM »
If I read correctly all of the tedious tweaking to get the mirrors in alignment involves movements  less than the width of a human hair.

     Yes. Part of it is aligning the mirrors segments in total, there is also a part that involves very slightly bending each one so it is curved just tight.

     Brett

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Webb Space Telescope
« Reply #92 on: January 28, 2022, 03:17:18 PM »
The easy way to begin to understand the Cassegrain alignment is to think of it as 18 separate telescopes. Each one has to be correctly aligned, and they concurrently must be co-aligned. There is a very specific sequence to this optimization else you are just chasing your tail. (Kind of like trimming a stunt ship? I know less about that....)

The first order term to fix is also the simplest to imagine--focus. You have to translate the entire primary mirror segment along the optical axis without tilting it. Each mirror segment I understand is hexapod mounted with "'whiffle tree" supports to the back of the mirror. That lets you do both axial translations but also tip and tilt. I don't think they can do or want to do axis rotations--that likely was taken care of in the tolerancing of the mirror design, and it is probably the least sensitive of all the aberrations.

If they look at a good point source (lots of them in space!) you can look at the blur circle of each sub-aperture (individual primary mirror segment) and diagnose focus, astigmatism, etc. The last alignment you likely will see is the co-boresight adjustments. In other words, image a good star, and get 18 separate, equally spaced images of the star. Then tighten up the focus so that all 18 are as clear as possible, then nudge them until they all overlap. The gain will go up as they overlap, but the combined image will be as fuzzy as the worst of the individual images.

The good news for the designers is that the wavelengths they are looking at (based on detector sensitivity) are longer, which means that the alignment tolerances are ever so slightly larger to get the same quality image.

This is a very, very cool instrument!

Dave


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