How do you score a maneuver when the plane hits it own wake?

[Paul Taylor]

So do you as a judge ding a maneuver if the plane hits the wind wake and bobbles?

Seem that is something the pilot can not see, but it does show that the pilot is hitting the intersections.

[Bill Little]

So do you as a judge ding a maneuver if the plane hits the wind wake and bobbles?

Seem that is something the pilot can not see, but it does show that the pilot is hitting the intersections.

I would say a "ding" is in order.  A bobble is a bobble.  The pilot can always take a step back to miss his wake.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Randy Cuberly]

So do you as a judge ding a maneuver if the plane hits the wind wake and bobbles?

Seem that is something the pilot can not see, but it does show that the pilot is hitting the intersections.

It's the shape, size, and position of the maneuver that you should be looking for as a judge.  If the airplane hits a wake and movement is caused that is likely to alter all of the above, providing it doesn't re-kit the plane!
Most certainly it's a downgrade in score.  How much of a downgrade depends on the severity of alteration of the maneuver shape etc..  The point being that no dispensation is given for the cause of the changes from the maneuver discription.  Any deviation from a pertect maneuver is a drop in score!

Randy Cuberly

[Hoss Cain]

I would say a "ding" is in order.  A bobble is a bobble.  The pilot can always take a step back to miss his wake.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

Admiral, Sir, I respectfully disagree with your thesis of airflow and the results thereof. When an aircraft has a rather high load maneuver it produces a wake turbulence, off the wing tips. Given no wind,to displace that air mass from its specific spot, it will create a mass very close to a tornado effect and then move in a direction away from the point of birth. The left wake moves left, and the right wake moves out to the right.
 Stepping back or forward could well only place your aircraft within the center of the turbulence.
I have witnessed small tornados move off the wing tips when a aircraft is landing ahead of my aircraft. Rather neat, especially if on a runway with water on each side (NAW not an aircraft carrier! They're not "Runways"   ) and see the water spouts move away from the RW on either side. One very interesting was landing a Long DC-8 behind a DC-10 at Kennedy one very clear and no wind afternoon.
Formation Rejoining at higher altitudes can allow a newbie to misjudge where the wake is. Makes one pay attention! In addition a breeze can move the wake downwind in front of the machine. Another item to think about.
When a rather new pilot, I took off in a T-33 at night VFR, behind a gooney bird. Had a back seater not qualified to drive. I edged off to the left to get away from the DC-3 and hit the left wake at about 300 ft. off the ground and slightly behind the DC-3. Quite a ride! I learned a new respect for prop drivers, and prop wake.  
Nope, Admiral, I don't think your thesis is all it should be. On those warm calm days a CL Stunter can find some turbulence almost anywhere when doing consecutive maneuvers, especially in the squares and triangles and frequently in the round maneuvers, simply because the wake may or may not move it away. While there are many pilots here with much more experience than me and may argue such, well so be it. I have seen it, felt it, and I believe it. Yes, I have flown #4 in the slot. Loved it but there was sweat!  

[Bill Little]

Hi Hoss,

I am sure you are aware of the decades long habit of taking a step backward with each consecutive maneuver...............

Bill

[Bob Whitely]

Mr.Cain,
I envy you your flite time in service and do understand about wake turbulance
both from a commercial and air traffic point of view. You are also correct in all
you say as to the effect of wake turbulance as it pertains to full size aircraft.
However there are some differences as to how the turbulance affects our
miniature planes and the way they are flown. Since turbulance almost always
descends that means that we should strive to fly above it but because we try to
place consecutive maneuvers in the same place we encounter the turbulance that is
left over from the first maneuver. In a calm wind condition this turbulance tends to
stay around some 3-10 seconds but it does move sideways whenever there is wind.
A steady wind above 3-4 knots will blow away the turbulance enough so that our
models are not affected. Another reason why the dreaded second triangle will put
your plane in the ground in calm wind is due to the fact that it happens so fast
that the turbulance has no chance of dissipating and therefore will slam the model
into the ground if the maneuver is done at the correct altitude.  Wake turbulance
is usually about equal to the wingspan.

[Mike Keville]

He's right.  Outside squares, same story.  (Learned that the hard way.)

Take....a....step....back.

[Bob Whitely]

Here's the rest  of the story. Turbulance is created by lift generation therefore stronger
turbulance will be made in a hard corner than a round loop. Turbulance almost always
descends in a calm wind condition and will always move with the prevailing wind whatever
that may be. You will encounter this turbulance whenever the wind is 3 knots or less
during consecutive maneuvers. With our models this turbulance is usually the width
of the wingspan. By taking long, smooth steps away from the point of the first
maneuver you will move out or away of the previous turbulance and get that 40 points
that you deserve.
All the above is cold, hard fact and not open to interpretation. I'm just sayin'...RJ

[PJ Rowland]

or Install 1 pair of Vortex Generators.

2 Things

 1: I feel Wake turbulance is reduced, or more to the point.. the air flowing off the wing is more controlled than simply turbulent.

 2: The model simply doesnt drop if it does his uneven air. This is due in part to controlling the airflow more over the wing, for the split second you are flying through turbulent air the ship still has enough airflow flowing over the wing from the Vortex generators to keep it airborn in that moment.  


As a flier Id expect to be marked down if my plane bobbles severly enough ,which is rare but has occured. Incidently, I've never lost a model due to having it hit the wake, or bobble, or fall out of the sky.. I've flown in some dead calm conditions with thermals rising, over tarmac, even when others have lost their planes at the same contest.


Even so.. I still like walking back, however I only take 1 step at the bottom segment of each, not an entire walk.

Bob Whitely is spot on & sound advice.

[Paul Taylor]

Some great information here!

PJ your Vortex generators sound very interesting. I know you posted them before and I am going in search for the thread again. Do you use them on all your planes?

This is so much like a dance with the plane.

Or should I say Dancing with Stars.

[David M Johnson]

I saw a Canadian Goose destroyed by wake turbulence once.   SeaTac Airport inbound DC-10 landing South to North. Bird crossed the path and literally exploded.
David Johnson

[PJ Rowland]

Paul : Yes I do run them on everyplane ( for competition anyway )

There is a long thread in here and I Stunt news will have an article shortly. A simple search will yeld the thread. I will not post it here beacsue I dont want to hijack the thread. Needless to say several guys have installed them now with great results to back up my findings/results from the last 15 years of testing.

Its each to their own, there are many correct ways to do many different things, this is simply another option not the only one.


Hot July Munice blacktop turbulance is about as difficult as it comes.

[Brett Buck]

So do you as a judge ding a maneuver if the plane hits the wind wake and bobbles?

Seem that is something the pilot can not see, but it does show that the pilot is hitting the intersections.

     You have to judge the accuracy of the track of the airplane WRT the maneuver descriptions. If it doesn't follow the track it's a deduction, regardless of the cause. What you shouldn't do is deduct if the airplane just rocks in roll/pitch/yaw but doesn't change track.

     You can't give anyone any breaks because of perceptions of difficulty, weather, wake turbulence, etc. If someone get 3 mph and a clean flight, and the next guy gets dead air and a bunch of wake turbulence bumps, well, that's just one of the vagaries of luck.

    Brett

[Paul Taylor]

Thanks PJ.... found it. It is something to think about for sure.

Got it BB.

I will also put a lucky rabbit's foot in my field box.

[Larry Cunningham]

There's no crying in Stunt!!

Even if the wind is howling at 35 MPH you don't get a break.

Bad Stunt, Bad Stunt, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when they downscore you?

L.

"I came from a real tough neighborhood. I put my hand in some cement and felt another hand." -Rodney Dangerfield