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Offline Jim Kraft

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FAA registration
« on: July 23, 2018, 06:51:02 PM »
There is a good you tube every one should see who fly's models. I do not know how to put them here, so this is the title.

     The end of recreational drone and model flying in the USA.

        I do not advocate you watch it if you have high blood pressure, or a bad heart because it will not make you happy.
Jim Kraft

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2018, 09:34:07 PM »
Hobbyists, lobbyists, they kind of sound the same.  Like the man said, "Follow the money".
Mike

Offline JoeJust

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2018, 09:22:46 AM »
When was this video produced? If recently we are doomed. If it is old, then perhaps there is still a chance. Didn't the AMA tell us last month that he House voted in favor of keeping the 336 portion of the new bill?
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline John Rist

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2018, 10:05:20 AM »
I didn't like what I was wartching however it was all about radio control.  Our control line activity should be OK.  The only down side is that if they stop all hobby RC flying the AMA will no longer exist and we will lose of insurance.   HB~>
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2018, 05:34:55 PM »
I guess this is the video Jim is referring us to. I am wondering why the AMA didn't make this video. Well, except for the fact that AMA isn't getting the job done for their members.   D>K Steve

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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2018, 09:52:27 PM »
I don't know what to say, except I don't like where this is going! Nothing in Part 336 specifically exempts CL. And there is ambiguity built in...one paragraph mentions anything.over.55 lbs, and another mentions POINT-55 pounds. Remote controlled is not spelled out to be Radio Frequency only. The verbage specifically says the aircraft is controlled via the pilot OUTSIDE the aircraft with no mention of control mechanism definitions.

My largest CL airplane is small by most standards at roughly 3/4 lb. Yet it is supposed to be "registered" due to weight. And according to this video, it appears that I'll possibly be required to install a transponder?

I would like to ask the FAA if they plan on regulating kites too! I know there are some pretty heavy ones...and even the smaller ones can and do extend beyond the 50 foot radius hemisphere my little plane flies in. And a kite CAN carry a telemetric "First Person View" suitable for "observing places and events" like the DoD guys are worried about a lot easier and more effective than my CL job can.

While I say that Tongue-in-Cheek, I believe all of the CL stuff is more closely related to a kite than what most people think of when "drones" are mentioned. But even a kite can now be construed as a 336 offender due to size, weight and "remote piloting." And that includes even single line kites!

I have discussed CL flying with Air Force pilots. They don't seem to be concerned or afraid that my CL job will jump off the lines and interfere with their "equipment." Realistically, our stuff is built unstable without lines. How much yaw can a totally loose CL plane endure without corkscrewing into the ground anyway? Our "right-rudder" is what helps the plane stay on the lines. Realistically, how likely is it that both lines will break at the same time. Free flight jobs are more inclined to "run away." Are they to be regulated too?

So where was the AMA during that meeting. How do we get names and addresses for the FAA people in that meeting? Who was the committee chair steering Part 336 into oblivion? I want to write a few letters/emails.

Grrrr! Thanks for letting me.rant.


Offline RC Storick

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2018, 01:23:36 AM »
I sent a letter to the AMA asking about this and here is their reply.

Mr. Storick,

Thank you for reaching out with your concerns!

AMA was present in the room, but because the meeting was intended for counter drone measures, legislators did not call upon AMA to testify. While we did not speak at this particular meeting, we still influenced the conversation behind the scenes. Excerpts of this meeting may have seemed detrimental to model aviation, but it is important to remember that many legislators are supportive of our members and the hobby. During the meeting, the Chairman of the Aviation Subcommittee, Rep. Bill Shuster, acknowledged modelers have been operating safely and Congress needs “to protect the people who haven’t done anything wrong.”

The discussion shown at this committee meeting is not new, but a daily battle that the AMA has been waging behind closed doors for several years.

While counter UAS measures will affect airspace and aviation in general, it is important to recognize that an amendment to preserve the Special Rule for Model Aircraft (Section 336) has already been added to the House version of the FAA Reauthorization bill. Roundtable discussions are an important part of the democratic process; however in the end, legislation is what truly matters. Because of this, and because the House FAA Reauthorization Bill already includes protections for Section 336, AMA has shifted its focus and are actively working with the Senate to provide long term protection to Section 336. In fact, while the House Aviation Subcommittee was assembled, members of the AMA team were meeting with the Department of Defense and key members of the Senate to preserve our hobby.

You can find the latest information on our blog at modelaircraft.org/gov. Please let me know if you have any further questions.


one sentence of my reply Maybe you should remind them without us there would be no them as modelers are the driving force in the industry.

It is my feeling the AMA is responsible for any actions taken against the hobby for jumping to the Drone bandwagon. Lumping the buy and fly community of non-AMA members in with us.
AMA 12366

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2018, 01:30:00 PM »
 It's easy. We don't fly model airplanes. We fly kites. Apparently in this environment, we can invent our own nomenclature. so, they aren't planes, they're kites.
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Offline peabody

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2018, 01:56:22 PM »
The FAA proudly announced the 100,000th registration today....I would guess about 5% of those that, by Federal law, should be registered.

Special


Offline Steve Thompson

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2018, 02:37:12 PM »
"It's easy. We don't fly model airplanes. We fly kites. Apparently in this environment, we can invent our own nomenclature. so, they aren't planes, they're kites."

Randy, that is just so politically incorrect.  You need to be more inclusive.  I, for example, identify as a Yoyo stunter.  My Yo's bobble up and down and do tricks out there at the end of the 60 foot yoyo strings. 

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2018, 06:27:07 PM »
"It's easy. We don't fly model airplanes. We fly kites. Apparently in this environment, we can invent our own nomenclature. so, they aren't planes, they're kites."

Randy, that is just so politically incorrect.  You need to be more inclusive.  I, for example, identify as a Yoyo stunter.  My Yo's bobble up and down and do tricks out there at the end of the 60 foot yoyo strings.

Some of us are easily offended by such terms, sir! Haha, I haven't done this in so long, it took longer to find my yoyo than to shoot this video!


Offline 944_Jim

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2018, 07:13:24 PM »
I'm not sure...but I think some people missed my point. 336 makes no distinction between RC and CL. They are targeting "drones."
As far as I understand, drones are:
Autonomous, Pre-programmable, Fly-away and return, FPV.
The $35 jobs that hover in a gym aren't drones. My kids' Syma 107G helicopters are no more drones than we are.
The "social environment" sees ANY quad-copter as "drone." You show them a Raptor, and people see "airplane." Tell them that an unprogrammable quad-copter will crash without instantaneous user intervention, and they still see "drone." That is  "news" sensationalism at its best (or worst)!

We aren't "drone." Nor are we outside of line of site. Nor can our aircraft fly on their own. Nor are we able to break out above 400 feet. More to the point, our aircraft cannot fly (for any significant distance)  without "pilot" input. This is true even when compared to Free Flight, which is built specifically to fly without ground-station input. I accept that one of our control lines may fail...but two (or three in the case of mechanical throttle)? Come on, the plane will crash no more than "line length away."

My Norvel-powered Mosquito only flies 2 miles at best spinning in circles! Cut 50 percent of its' controls and tell me it will escape the 50 foot radius imposed by the remaining line.

My point was CL is no more "drone" than a kite is.

I dunno, but Captain Morgan and I are going to fly a 336-beater on a 3/4 acre plot before the "drone police" show up.

LM Cox must be rolling over in his grave right now...his whole batch of "toys" are about to be legislated into criminal activities, along with Chinese kites.

Maybe I'm.being over-sensative to details. But I just had this discussion with a guy at work (on the local Air Force Base where I work), and he couldn't see the difference between RC, Drone, and CL. but he laughed when I said big (9 out ce-plus) kites fall into the same restrictions. When I brought it back down to an 8 oz kite, he said "Surely not! It isn't Dangerous-To-Our-Aircraft. There are bigger birds (as in "fowl").

Yes, even a fully tethered (twice, three times if mechanically-throttled) 70 foot radius, 2 lb aircraft is considered "regulated." And this despite my showing FAA maps showing a 2/3rds acre lot on the local Air Base IS NOT in "restricted" air space...definitley controlled, but not restricted, due to within 5 miles, but not "restricted." The Base safety officer laughed when I mentioned his interpretation made a 9 ounce kite "illegal."

Shared for the sake of illumination-even we are the bad guys in "their" eyes.

Offline JoeJust

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2018, 07:15:14 PM »
WOW! I did find he outsides a bit better than the insides, but then I'm not really much of a PA judge. y1  y1
Joe
I only enter contests so somebody else is not always in last place

Offline Target

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2018, 07:51:45 PM »
I'll say the same thing that I said from the beginning:

Register the FPV equipment, NOT the airframes.
My RC sailplanes can and will break the 400' altitude, and I have been doing it safely for years.
I have ZERO INTEREST in FPV, I only fly Line Of Sight RC.
My sailplane is not a DRONE.


FPV is what makes any flying device a threat. Not the method of control.


And CL should not even be considered for FAA registration. Not even once.


R,
Target
Regards,
Chris
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Offline 944_Jim

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2018, 09:23:29 PM »
Yeah, the rum got me going...sorry for the side bar ad nauseum. And I agree wholeheartedly with Target.
And Dane's YOYO better weigh less than 250 grams, or else he'll have to paint AMA numbers and install IFF hardware on it!

Offline dale gleason

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2018, 09:35:00 PM »
Dane, That ain't no Duncan!
dg

Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2018, 09:44:30 PM »
It's easy. We don't fly model airplanes. We fly kites. Apparently in this environment, we can invent our own nomenclature. so, they aren't planes, they're kites.
Mine self identify as balloons......
Profanity is the crutch of the illiterate mind

Offline Curare

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2018, 12:28:03 AM »
I'll say the same thing that I said from the beginning:

Register the FPV equipment, NOT the airframes.
My RC sailplanes can and will break the 400' altitude, and I have been doing it safely for years.
I have ZERO INTEREST in FPV, I only fly Line Of Sight RC.
My sailplane is not a DRONE.


FPV is what makes any flying device a threat. Not the method of control.


And CL should not even be considered for FAA registration. Not even once.


R,
Target

I like the idea, but really question how it would, and could be put into practice. What differentiates a saiplane from a quadcopeter in the eyes of the FAA? They'll be looking for one-fits-all rationale. So what works? A flying camera? GPS tracking? that radio jamming equipment?!?

Truth is, they don't know and they don't care. They don't WANT you in the sky. Unless you're wiling to pay for the privilege.

Greg Kowalski
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2018, 01:00:59 PM »
It is not just the FPV. It is also the autonomous flight and autopilot functions. These are equally important discriminators between a hobby/model and a work platform/weapon.

Dave

Offline Target

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2018, 01:21:50 PM »
It is not just the FPV. It is also the autonomous flight and autopilot functions. These are equally important discriminators between a hobby/model and a work platform/weapon.

Dave

I agree that those added problems, but I think that the FPV was the starting issue, AKA the root cause that started problems, particularly for RC modelers. Sure an A/P system added to capabilities, but if we just handled the FPV part of things, we would be FAR ahead of where we are now.
U/C should have NEVER EVER been effected.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Target

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2018, 01:29:39 PM »
I like the idea, but really question how it would, and could be put into practice. What differentiates a saiplane from a quadcopeter in the eyes of the FAA? They'll be looking for one-fits-all rationale. So what works? A flying camera? GPS tracking? that radio jamming equipment?!?

Truth is, they don't know and they don't care. They don't WANT you in the sky. Unless you're wiling to pay for the privilege.

Yes, it is my contention that what makes a drone IS the FPV system on it. If all the sales of FPV cameras or transmitter/receiver equipment was forced to register with the FAA at the point of sale, then the rest of us "sport fliers" and "real modelers" could keep doing what we have been safely doing for decades.
It IS the camera equipment that allowed people to fly past line of sight (which in a multi rotor platform, is even less far than a conventional model aircraft). Before FPV, we had no issues to speak of. No one was flying RC planes or helicopters near sensitive security areas or brush fires in California. Before FPV, no one was flying their RC aircraft in ridiculously crowded areas, because there was risk and no real benefit.
FPV changed all that.
FPV should be the thing that gets registered. It's simple.

R,
Target
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2018, 11:16:56 PM »
Here is the difference in our thinking, and why I believe you will not understand the rationale of the DOD, SS, and hence the FAA if you fixate on the FPV aspect as being the discriminator for regulation:

1. The video aspect made flying cool again to youth who grew up with video, camera phones and utube. They are not inherently aviation minded--that is just the vehicle to an new and evolving aspect of digital video. But don't confuse this feature that attracts nearly all of the participants as being the enabler.

2. The ability to fly an inherently unstable vehicle without autopilot/stabilization automatically limits you to line of sight operations. Think R/C helicopter with just rate gyros. You are not going to fly it beyond line of sight.

3. What makes the platform a serious issue for abuse and therefore regulation is the ability to preprogram flight paths and to park it exactly on lat/long/alt numbers. And to do it with very little pilot knowledge or skill as compared to actually flying an airplane or certainly a helicopter. Once you have this autonomous capability, now you can missionize it. Put on a camera. Cameras. Put on anything within the weight lifting capability. Now imagine that you have no camera at all, and it is not FPV. You can still "park" one in a critical piece of airspace and it becomes a threat--with no camera onboard. So FPV alone is not a sufficient criteria for discriminating a threat vehicle. Unless you comprehend this, you will not understand the discussion within DOD, SS, and the FAA.

This is not something that "just showed up."  I worked for a company that was heavily involved in UAV development and avionics. I started on my first UAV project in 1995. We were actually a named co-winner of the Collier Trophy for the first fully autonomous UAV for the DOD. The same principles apply to the quads current being purchased as consumer items. These would be considered a tactical capability, rather than a strategic one, but potentially highly effective for a lot of missions. Range and duration is their biggest limitation.

The video attached, while I agree with much of the sentiment, has numerous logical flaws that are based on what he thinks the testimony in the hearing is about--but was not what I derived from the discussion. This isn't just about the types of problems we have already experienced. It is also about the threat of what is now possible. Today, and with other developments in the near future. (Part of the EMI discussion.) And in the name of fun and new challenges, the Quad Community keeps raising the bar on the level of concern. For example, I just read about how excited they were to perform a record attempt to see how many they could put up all at once. In the DOD, they call this a swarming threat....  The regulators may discover that the only prevention here would be to disallow, via the FCC, the 2.4GHz frequency hopping capability, as an example. Not a place the hobby wants to go, but we are clearly not helping ourselves with our own actions.

I believe that some in the government get the benign nature of control line flying. I had the serious/comical situation where a control line racing contest was going to be cancelled because the Parks department was shutting down the field due to a last minute TFR for VIP movement around LAX. I made some phone calls, including one to the FAA and one to the AMA. I explained that the planes were tethered, and could not go higher than 70 feet. That there was no radio control, it was all manual connections, hooked to your arm. Ultimately, the Secret Service called the Parks and Rec department and told them to go ahead and hold the contest. I got a frantic call from the lady from Parks and Rec who was obviously flustered by the call from the Secret Service:  she told me that we had to hold the races--the CIA had called her and told her we had to.

Offline Target

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2018, 07:43:13 AM »
Oh, i understand. I work for a DoD contractor.
But there's no way registering airframes will prevent what they are afraid of happening. In fact, they are wasting their energy and resources by doing that, imo. To add insult to injury, that punishes (somewhat, imo) the people that aren't causing the issue.
I'm not saying that registering the fpv gear would completely allieviate the threat, but it would do much more than the strategy that they have chosen to persue. And it would be more focused on the problem children.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: FAA registration
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2018, 01:24:19 PM »
Chris,

The conversation  was not about the merit of registering airframes; at least, not on my part. In my view, the best way to accomplish the sometimes stated goals of the FAA would be to make autopilot/autonomous flight illegal for non-commercial operators. It becomes self-enforcing: go beyond LOS and you crash. End of future violations. And for the commercial operators require training and make the penalties for violations clear. The operators making money from drone use have enough skin in the game to provide the needed leverage for compliance. The hobbiests don't. My example is the New York TFR incident:

The one significant (only?) midair collision of a quad and an aircraft that I know of was with a Blackhawk helicopter in New York. When the helicopter collided with the drone, it impacted the main rotor, the windscreen frame and drone parts were ingested by the engine intake. When the aircraft was inspected, they found the drone parts in the intake that were traceable by the manufacturer due to the serial numbers. The FBI and FAA visited the purchaser the next day at his place of work. He appears to have cooperated completely, even providing the flight telemetry which proved he broke multiple rules, including the 400 ft limitation. Not to mention his violation of two TFRs. The learning opportunity appears to have been lost however. Was he fined heavily enough so that all of the quad community learned that you cannot operate that way? I simply do not know, because the reporting trail seems to end after the FAA report. If you haven't read the investigation reports on this one already, it is interesting and worthwhile....

Again, you can believe it is about the FPV, but eliminating the FPV does not take away a collision threat of a malicious user or certain other things that could be done. And hanging an illegal camera on one again is easy. That is no prevention at all. Getting rid of the flood of microchips with autopilots/GPS would take time, but no Joe Hobby is going to be able to reproduce one of these on his own. The problem gets stabilized, and diminishes with time.

I concede that making FPV--and any type of camera on a remote controlled civilian, non-commercial drone--illegal would take away the huge attraction for nearly all of the current users. Obviously that would be a large step toward what some have imagined the FAA's goal to be. But this, by itself does not eliminate the overall threat. As long as there are perceived major gaps in prevention, the FAA/DOD/SS will be working behind the scenes to increase regulation.

Simply registering FPV equipment is no more effective at prevention in my mind than registering airframes. And, there is no good body of regulations for that approach to fit into unless it is with the FCC. With airframes, the precedents and procedures are all in place. In some ways, there are similarities to the CB radio craze of the 1970s. The difference here is that drones are tangled up with security issues, privacy issues, and real aircraft safety issues. (Did you see the presumably authentic video of the airliner flying under the drone on approach? Do you know the kind of damage a "spec" 4-lb birdstrike can do to an aircraft?) I don't recall nearly that downside to the CB crowd who flaunted the power levels, the frequencies, and so forth. And in the end, who wanted to talk endlessly about nothing much? Good buddy. Will FPV go the same way?

Respectfully,

Dave

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