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Author Topic: Walker Cup.....  (Read 31469 times)

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #200 on: July 28, 2012, 11:16:10 PM »
You are correct, someone did need to think about how, and what we do, I did this, and talked it over with several others. The program we use now could be used as is if we had too, and if the bottom falls out and we get a pitiful attendance, it still can be used even if it was just used to generate forms,

I can't see how it could be used as-is, or even with simple changes.  The several people to whom you talked no doubt are more familiar with it than I, though. 
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #201 on: July 28, 2012, 11:28:45 PM »
I can't see how it could be used as-is, or even with simple changes.  The several people to whom you talked no doubt are more familiar with it than I, though. 


Howard

What you are seemingly failing to get, is that the proposal was about running Expert at the NATs, It was NOT a proposal to see if we could use your program or not, That was NOT what was presented, nor was it a prudent thing to include in the proposal,  The EXPERT proposal was not about mandating what format to use, how to seed the flyers, or who's or what program to use to score them, We had no reason to included that mandate in the proposal, AGAIN those can be worked out,First things first.
You seem to be hung up on trying to convince everyone that the format and what will be used to score the NATs is  some kind of huge deal that cannot be dealt with without major major troubles , or as it seems to me, just trying to cause as much grief and trouble as you can possibly can. You keep bring up the same thing over and over again. I do not see the point in doing so, It certainly is going no where, doing any good, or making anything better.

Randy

Offline Trostle

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #202 on: July 29, 2012, 12:05:58 AM »

I have missed this the last day or so.   I've been traveling to a stunt contest.  I went through the same argument with Randy and Keith.  Had I proposed something to my bosses like what was proposed to the EC, I'd have been cut off and sent back to do my homework.  The pig in the poke having been purchased, I am hopeful that some detail-minded peon comes up with a process.  Red type is not a process.  The Nats was fun while it lasted.

I can't see how it could be used as-is, or even with simple changes.  The several people to whom you talked no doubt are more familiar with it than I, though. 


Gee Howard, your computer programs are wonderful.  Have you not been given enough credit for your contributions?  I am just now realizing that the entire CLPA community has not really stood up and awarded whatever accolades are deserve.

You speak of some mystical proposal process that nails down every possible detail that is needed before even a simple change like has been proposed and approved could really be seriously made.  If such proposals were needed, then Netzeband would never have gotten his ideas off the ground when he told the AMA he could devise a multi-circle qualification program for our Nats in the early 60's.  We never would have been able to start the evolutionary process that was started when PAMPA took over the Nats (initially without coputer support) that has led to the really incredible Nats format that we now use.    Changes were made, adjustments were made, improvements were made without going through a board of directors as well as a technical review panel and an environmental impact study looking for every detail to be totally defined before the process was even started or any changes made.  And when Paul took over the Nats, did he propose to your mythical board of directors and review panels all of the details that he, with your help, worked out, many times, on the fly.  Gee, since we never had those formal proposals, should we just scrap this whole thing that has been developed over the past 40 to 60 years?  Are your programs so complex, that even you cannot get into them  to accommodate a separate class of fliers to the two classes we now have.  There will be no more circles involved.  There will be no more days involved  There will be no more judges involved.  There will be another scoreboard, but really, one more score board in addition to how many appear there now?  Please explain why that cannot be done other than you just do not want to.  (I guess I can understand that part, but equally disappointed that it might get to that.)  You made adjustments to your program throughout that first Nats that Paul ran with your help with the computers.  Why could not that service and innovation you provided to the stunt community be continued.

Keith

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #203 on: July 29, 2012, 07:33:08 AM »
To me this has been all wasted space in the main computor.   Yes, the EC has voted to hold Expert at the NATS.  But, have they cleared it with the AMA NATS planning committeee?    From what I have seen in the past and read,  the AMA could say a big NO to this.    H^^
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #204 on: July 29, 2012, 08:20:08 AM »
To me this has been all wasted space in the main computor.   Yes, the EC has voted to hold Expert at the NATS.  But, have they cleared it with the AMA NATS planning committeee?    From what I have seen in the past and read,  the AMA could say a big NO to this.    H^^

Doc,

Part of the arrangements between the AMA and the SIGs are that the AMA allows each SIG to run their event as they see fit.  The AMA has never intervened with the evolutionary changes that PAMPA has made to the Nationals format.  There would be no reason for the AMA to do so with this addition of an official rulebook event to the Nats schedule.  It will not take any additional space being provided by the AMA.  The entire CLPA event will still be on the same days. 

Keith

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #205 on: July 29, 2012, 09:59:19 AM »
To me this has been all wasted space in the main computor.   Yes, the EC has voted to hold Expert at the NATS.  But, have they cleared it with the AMA NATS planning committeee?    From what I have seen in the past and read,  the AMA could say a big NO to this.    H^^

NO that will not happen , and I have never seen anything in our past NATs that would remotely suggest that.

Randy

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #206 on: July 29, 2012, 11:04:09 AM »
To me this has been all wasted space in the main computor.   Yes, the EC has voted to hold Expert at the NATS.  But, have they cleared it with the AMA NATS planning committeee?    From what I have seen in the past and read,  the AMA could say a big NO to this.    H^^

As Far as AMA goes I don't think they care if we hold 1 event or a 100 as long as we are done in the alloted time.
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #207 on: July 29, 2012, 11:43:31 AM »
Can't believe I didn't think of this before!!!

The clear issue (after reading this and other threads regarding the generic subject matter) is that the reason we need yet another class is because it is "hard" to be competitive  under the current Nats format and, reductio ad absurdum, fliers don't want to spend the bucks to participate if they don't stand a chance to win a trophy.  Once whittled down to its essence the solution is obvious.

How about this to resolve the discontent.  What if somebody (AMA, PAMPA, what the heck, ME) offers to buy a "National Stunt Champion Trophy" for everyone who enters stunt at the Nats!  It probably wouldn't be fancy but, as we all know, it is what the symbol represents that counts.  In fact, we could probably include the price of the trophy in the entry fees.  Maybe even offer "extra cost options" like "big" or "not plastic" etc.  It could even be a money maker for PAMPA if a percentage of the cost of the extras was added to cover "administrative costs."

Based on the apparent logic presently assessing the problem, the Nats would be bigger than ever and travel costs, etc.,  perfectly surmountable once the "goal" was a guaranteed outcome.

Written more or less tongue in cheek but, you gotta admit, I didn't make up anything.  Given: competitiveness and cost are the reasons for poor attendance.  Ergo: The proposal mitigates both and could make the organization a profit.  No slings and arrows, please.  Just think about it.  Why is this proposal wrong?

Ted

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #208 on: July 29, 2012, 11:58:41 AM »
Ted, Charlie Bower already does that I have one from 2011 and 2012. Participation trophy's. You really don't want to hear my opinion of this.
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Online Dick Pacini

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #209 on: July 29, 2012, 12:53:22 PM »
The same principle has been applied in many children's activities.  There are no losers, so everyone gets a prize.  That way, nobody feels left out.  There are no failures.  A great way to prepare kids for adulthood, eh? HB~>
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #210 on: July 29, 2012, 12:54:28 PM »
You seem to be hung up on trying to convince everyone that the format and what will be used to score the NATs is  some kind of huge deal that cannot be dealt with without major major troubles , or as it seems to me, just trying to cause as much grief and trouble as you can possibly can. You keep bring up the same thing over and over again. I do not see the point in doing so, It certainly is going no where, doing any good, or making anything better.

   Of course none of it is insurmountable. Worst comes to worse, you can do it all manually.  But you do need to determine how you are going to deal with the variable entry levels, then come up with some approach to handling it, and then software that supports it. That's was the point of my previous comments (before people started calling me names and not caring about the event).

   I can easily imagine that Howard's current software is not easily modifiable for this purpose.

    The first step in doing that is figuring out how you are going to format the contest and deal with variable entries. Some of it can be done exactly as before, but some of it can't. Once you figure out how to deal with the varying entries and distribution between circles, then you can scope out what the software needs to do, and get working on that. It occurs to me that the problem is separable into individual tasks that are much more finite than trying to do the entire thing  in one program. But you need to determine the requirements before knowing how to write it.

    It may be a lot simpler, if more labor-intensive, to do some of the tasks manually. If, for example, you printed the scoresheets with only the pilot's name and class and let the judges sign the sheet and put in the circle and flight number, you relieve greatly some of the other demands for deciding everything before you start. It also means that you have to do the stacking manually, or at least entering the data manually into the (now separate) stacking program. I am not necessarily advocating that but stuff like that should be considered to relieve the burden on the programming.

   Additionally, previous attempts have tended to use relational databases. For our purposes, I would think that a flat file is adequate, and most importantly, is dead easy to manually edit if something goes wrong. Also much less prone to version and installation differences on different machines.

    Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #211 on: July 29, 2012, 12:55:58 PM »
Ted, Charlie Bower already does that I have one from 2011 and 2012. Participation trophy's. You really don't want to hear my opinion of this.

  Yes,  I have mine from 2011. I know that it was well-intended.

     Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #212 on: July 29, 2012, 01:08:12 PM »
Can't believe I didn't think of this before!!!

The clear issue (after reading this and other threads regarding the generic subject matter) is that the reason we need yet another class is because it is "hard" to be competitive  under the current Nats format and, reductio ad absurdum, fliers don't want to spend the bucks to participate if they don't stand a chance to win a trophy.  Once whittled down to its essence the solution is obvious.

How about this to resolve the discontent.  What if somebody (AMA, PAMPA, what the heck, ME) offers to buy a "National Stunt Champion Trophy" for everyone who enters stunt at the Nats!  It probably wouldn't be fancy but, as we all know, it is what the symbol represents that counts.  In fact, we could probably include the price of the trophy in the entry fees.  Maybe even offer "extra cost options" like "big" or "not plastic" etc.  It could even be a money maker for PAMPA if a percentage of the cost of the extras was added to cover "administrative costs."

Based on the apparent logic presently assessing the problem, the Nats would be bigger than ever and travel costs, etc.,  perfectly surmountable once the "goal" was a guaranteed outcome.

Written more or less tongue in cheek but, you gotta admit, I didn't make up anything.  Given: competitiveness and cost are the reasons for poor attendance.  Ergo: The proposal mitigates both and could make the organization a profit.  No slings and arrows, please.  Just think about it.  Why is this proposal wrong?

Ted

Making lite and fun of this helps a lot.....

We could always  just then get rid of:
Advanced class we fly at the NATs  now
also get rid of Intermediate
Get rid of Beginner
Get rid of Classic
and Old Time needs to go to..

After all  we don't need any of those lower class events for the lower class flyers  because...after all  they have Nothing  to do with the National Championship, and crowning the Walker Cup trophy Winner.......


Then we could just cater to the 15 or 20 total entries we would have and save a bunch of time and trouble.....
Randy

Online Larry Fernandez

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #213 on: July 29, 2012, 02:31:40 PM »
This is my take.
As a lowly bottom feeder, local expert flyer, I am still a very competitive individual. I left the advanced ranks and started flying expert before I ever flew a 500 flight. I took some heat for this, but the last year I flew advanced, the local competition was not like it is today, and I won almost every contest.
Trophys in the lower ranks did not mean much to me and I was almost guanenteed to win advanced every time.
So I decided to fly against the big boys. I dont see any victorys in the expert ranks comming my way but it sure is fun flying against the big boys.

If I get back to the NATs soon, I will want to fly in Open, just to test my skills against the big shots.
I would get much more satisfaction in qualifying in open, than I would get winning in Expert.

Its not the competition that keeps me away from Muncie, its the time and expense.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #214 on: July 29, 2012, 03:26:59 PM »
Can't believe I didn't think of this before!!!

The clear issue (after reading this and other threads regarding the generic subject matter) is that the reason we need yet another class is because it is "hard" to be competitive  under the current Nats format and, reductio ad absurdum, fliers don't want to spend the bucks to participate if they don't stand a chance to win a trophy.  Once whittled down to its essence the solution is obvious.

How about this to resolve the discontent.  What if somebody (AMA, PAMPA, what the heck, ME) offers to buy a "National Stunt Champion Trophy" for everyone who enters stunt at the Nats!  It probably wouldn't be fancy but, as we all know, it is what the symbol represents that counts.  In fact, we could probably include the price of the trophy in the entry fees.  Maybe even offer "extra cost options" like "big" or "not plastic" etc.  It could even be a money maker for PAMPA if a percentage of the cost of the extras was added to cover "administrative costs."

Based on the apparent logic presently assessing the problem, the Nats would be bigger than ever and travel costs, etc.,  perfectly surmountable once the "goal" was a guaranteed outcome.

Written more or less tongue in cheek but, you gotta admit, I didn't make up anything.  Given: competitiveness and cost are the reasons for poor attendance.  Ergo: The proposal mitigates both and could make the organization a profit.  No slings and arrows, please.  Just think about it.  Why is this proposal wrong?

Ted

Ted if this was just all about winning a trophy, which I have a room full of, I would have quit flying stunt a long time ago.
Your conclusion is completely wrong...at least it is for most of the folks I know who want to fly in an "Expert Class" at the Nationals.
I think it's totally ridiculous and pretentious for a guy like me that consistently flys 540'ish scores to go compete against the likes of the top Walker Cup competitors.  I've flown against most of those folks at VSC and it's simply embarassing.  Yes I want to improve but at 71 years of age while possible it's unlikely that I'm going to add 50 points to my stunt score.
I can't believe any of the guys at that level wish to fly against the likes of me.  Yes they are all nice folks and typically treat us low level guys like equals but everyone knows when it comes to stunt, we are not.
Talent is talent and some have lots of it and some have not enough of it.  If that wasn't true we could all be rich Pro basketball or Football players.
Plow horses don't run in the Kentucky Derby but they are useful.
I simply prefer to compete against folks more within my own spectrum of talent and skill.  Certainly winning there means nothing because it is not really winning anything.  It is less embarassing however to lose by 10 points than 50.
I know you're a nice guy and really didn't intend to denigrate anyone but I have to admit that your earlier remarks smacked of "elitism and ridicule".
No I don't believe you or any of the top fliers are elitists...just better at what you do and confident of it.
I do however hope you will re-think your remarks above.

A friend
Randy Cuberly
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #215 on: July 30, 2012, 08:03:52 PM »
Seeing that I have had a hard time winning open these days, maybe I should enter Expert next year. There is nothing to keep me from doing this. In Expert I will have a 17 point head start on Orestes!

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #216 on: July 30, 2012, 08:35:10 PM »
Seeing that I have had a hard time winning open these days, maybe I should enter Expert next year. There is nothing to keep me from doing this. In Expert I will have a 17 point head start on Orestes!

Well Paul...
If you're no longer interested in being the National Champion you probably should come have fun with us non-serious guys.
I'm quite sure Bob Hunt, Bill Rich, Kaz, and Doug will be very happy about that.  I for one would be very happy to have you fly with us'ns.  Besides you've won too many times and are obviously getting old...
Bob Whitely is thinking about getting serious again next year...He'l be thrilled to hear that.   #^ #^

Sure you'd be satisfied with that...in a pigs eye!   LL~ LL~ D>K

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #217 on: July 31, 2012, 04:37:02 AM »
Seeing that I have had a hard time winning open these days, maybe I should enter Expert next year. There is nothing to keep me from doing this. In Expert I will have a 17 point head start on Orestes!

I talked to Orestes shortly after the Nats and he said that he would be there next year. I doubt he will enter Expert...

Derek

Offline Joseph Patterson

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #218 on: July 31, 2012, 08:33:32 AM »
    I think Ted's suggestion was said with "tongue in cheek". I think if I was an Expert flyer which I am not, but aspire to be, I would only be interested in entering the open event because it is the most prestigious event and would be flying against the very best, which is to me kind of an honor in itself. It is an opportunity raise ones skill level (building/flying) by going against the best- "Iron sharpens iron". A top 20/25 placing in Open would mean much more to me than the same placing in the new Expert event.
     Doug 

Offline proparc

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #219 on: July 31, 2012, 09:41:32 AM »
I am still sticking to my plan to sneek into Beginner next year.  My conversation with the 2013 stunt Nats CD.

Wait a minute, you don’t look like no stinking Beginner to Me”. Reply-I have a premature aging disease.

Just what are you trying to pull-look at the size of that ship-that’s no Beginners plane. My uncle flies F3A and he built it for me.

Just what do you think your doing, Beginners don’t fly 4 strokes motors that big. My other uncle is an auto mechanic, and he set the valves for me.

O yeah, then where did you learn to balance a prop that big. My sister works for Cessna, and she took it to them. And, my auto mechanic uncle that I told you about, he installed it.

Where did you learn to plumb a tank for a motor that size. My next-door neighbor is a full time plumber, and he knows codes.

I suppose your going to tell me that you didn’t design that airfoil?  What’s an airfoil?   

Alright, I’ll let you in this time, but if I so much as see a hint of a reverse wingover, your butts’ outta here.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 10:03:48 AM by proparc »
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #220 on: July 31, 2012, 10:00:41 AM »
I have total belief in the integrity of the top level pilots in PAMPA who are engaged in actually running the NATS.  Howard and Brett:  I know you both are far and away above many of us when it comes to providing a program to utilize for expediting the event. Howard, I do not believe that you developed the program to bring honor to you.  I only know that you deserve all the accolades of everyone who has participated since he use of your program began.  There is no doubt that it works, and works better than any where else on the planet.

I see the main logistical problems lying with the number of entrants in each class (basically unknown until the event begins), and determining how many from each class that will move on from qualifying (again unknown until the number of entrants is determined).

I cannot see how these "problems" could possibly be insurmountable given the quality of people who are in charge.

Bill
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Offline Alex Becerril

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #221 on: July 31, 2012, 10:42:00 AM »
Seeing that I have had a hard time winning open these days, maybe I should enter Expert next year. There is nothing to keep me from doing this. In Expert I will have a 17 point head start on Orestes!

Orestes model is 100% Boom legal

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #222 on: July 31, 2012, 11:04:22 AM »
What you are seemingly failing to get, is that the proposal was about running Expert at the NATs, It was NOT a proposal to see if we could use your program or not...

You always return to the point that you won: there will be Expert at the Nats.  In the above statement, you said that the program can handle the change.  I just challenged your statement.  How about switching from sales mode to trying to make the extra class work or even seeing if it will work?  So far, Brett is the only person I see doing that.  I looked at it a little, but I'm still on the road and don't have access to everything I need.  As class size diminishes, seeding and distribution of contestants among groups gets a little more important.  I think you would want to have an automatic system, published in advance, that picks how many advance to the finals and how many circles each event uses for qualifications.  You don't want the good guys flying on a circle with fewer contestants than other circles, for example.  Yes, this can be done by hand on the fly, but you will hear squealing by people who got on a "hard" circle and claims that the process is rigged.  If the process is arbitrary, it will be hard to defend.  
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Offline Joseph Lijoi

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #223 on: July 31, 2012, 11:12:35 AM »
Can't believe I didn't think of this before!!!

The clear issue (after reading this and other threads regarding the generic subject matter) is that the reason we need yet another class is because it is "hard" to be competitive  under the current Nats format and, reductio ad absurdum, fliers don't want to spend the bucks to participate if they don't stand a chance to win a trophy.  Once whittled down to its essence the solution is obvious.

How about this to resolve the discontent.  What if somebody (AMA, PAMPA, what the heck, ME) offers to buy a "National Stunt Champion Trophy" for everyone who enters stunt at the Nats!  It probably wouldn't be fancy but, as we all know, it is what the symbol represents that counts.  In fact, we could probably include the price of the trophy in the entry fees.  Maybe even offer "extra cost options" like "big" or "not plastic" etc.  It could even be a money maker for PAMPA if a percentage of the cost of the extras was added to cover "administrative costs."

Based on the apparent logic presently assessing the problem, the Nats would be bigger than ever and travel costs, etc.,  perfectly surmountable once the "goal" was a guaranteed outcome.

Written more or less tongue in cheek but, you gotta admit, I didn't make up anything.  Given: competitiveness and cost are the reasons for poor attendance.  Ergo: The proposal mitigates both and could make the organization a profit.  No slings and arrows, please.  Just think about it.  Why is this proposal wrong?

Ted

Amazing.  Cabernet?

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #224 on: July 31, 2012, 11:21:11 AM »
Why could not that service and innovation you provided to the stunt community be continued.

I presume that's a question.  I have done the work to accommodate frivolous changes such as taking away and restoring appearance points, changing the scoring-error checks both times.  This one might be easy for a pro, but would take me several weeks.  Can you imagine why I'm not interested?  Heck, I'm not even interested in going to the next Nats after this abuse.  
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #225 on: July 31, 2012, 11:37:18 AM »
I presume that's a question.  I have done the work to accommodate frivolous changes such as taking away and restoring appearance points, changing the scoring-error checks both times.  This one might be easy for a pro, but would take me several weeks.  Can you imagine why I'm not interested?  Heck, I'm not even interested in going to the next Nats after this abuse.  

Come on Howard, I took just as much abuse as you did and I will be back. Remember what you told me? Our new plan...more flying, less silly poems.

Derek

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #226 on: July 31, 2012, 12:29:28 PM »
You always return to the point that you won: there will be Expert at the Nats.  In the above statement, you said that the program can handle the change.  I just challenged your statement.  How about switching from sales mode to trying to make the extra class work or even seeing if it will work?  So far, Brett is the only person I see doing that.  I looked at it a little, but I'm still on the road and don't have access to everything I need.  As class size diminishes, seeding and distribution of contestants among groups gets a little more important.  I think you would want to have an automatic system, published in advance, that picks how many advance to the finals and how many circles each event uses for qualifications.  You don't want the good guys flying on a circle with fewer contestants than other circles, for example.  Yes, this can be done by hand on the fly, but you will hear squealing by people who got on a "hard" circle and claims that the process is rigged.  If the process is arbitrary, it will be hard to defend.  

Howard

Everyone appreciates your hard work and the program you delveloped, You made this a better administered event with your work on the computer program and all the time and effort that you put in.
As far as the program goes , I am running things and I am in process of doing just that now, It will NOT however be up to me to decide this, what I was saying above is NOT that I won, I did not decide this, It was ran thru many people as I wanted as much input as possible before It was proposed to the PAMPA Competition committee, It passed the Comp committee.
It was not appropriate for me to mandate how the seeding, scoring, or running of the NATs went, That is up to DON and David
Then it was presented to the EC by Pres Don McClave, they discussed it amoung themselves and also took a poll of PAMPA members in their respective distritcs, Then there was a Q&A session at the meeting before the vote was taken, If anyone "won" I hope it is the pilots and PAMPA members.
It looks like we have to also decide **if**  we will go go back to a 1 day format instead of the 2 day 4 flight that PAMPA put in place years ago if our number keep falling.  I for one, do NOT want to do this, I still think It is important to have the 2 days of flying that we have used for decades now.  (note I think Ted was instrumental in this change to our format, and it was a very good one for pilots)
We suggested , in the proposal  the the PAMPA skill classes would have 10 finalist each in Expert and Advanced. Then OPEN will still have the Top 20, I think this is very important because of the tradition of "Rookie of the Year" in the top 20, and the placings that have gone along with that for decades. I do really hope ,we never fall below enough numbers to Not have the Top 20 in OPEN.

Another item, are you telling me that if we have less than 15 or so enter an event that the program will not work?
If it comes to it that it will fail, and there is a small number in Expert the first year , it would be easy to add another laptop and use it for Expert only, That way it would still have the score sheets printed for the ED and would be able to handle the duties  of the program, and it can generate scoreboard sheets too.
If, we get pityful number, That will be very bad for us all, but one good point is that the problem of judges sitting in the hot sun all day will be GONE.
I will be honest and tell you with only 21 Advanced flyers this year putting up flights, I am worried about numbers there.

Randy
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 01:04:20 PM by RandySmith »

Offline Trostle

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #227 on: July 31, 2012, 01:22:16 PM »

(Clip)

  I have done the work to accommodate frivolous changes such as taking away and restoring appearance points, changing the scoring-error checks both times.  

(Clip)

  Heck, I'm not even interested in going to the next Nats after this abuse.  

"Frivolous Changes".  What "frivolous changes"?  And when were appearance points taken away and then restored?  Were those changes that had to be made sometime with the Nats format in the last several years since you started generating programs to assist the ED?  I did not know that appearance points were never part of the Nats or our CLPA event. There was a change several years ago that removed Pattern Points from the rulebook.  That was a real change to the CLPA rules, as approved by the CL Aerobatics Contest Board.  That change lasted for the one change cycle and Pattern Points were then put back in the official rulebook.  Maybe that is not what you had in mind, but I do not consider any such change to the official rulebook as "frivolous".  (And I will not even get into how some people twisted that change, based on the F2B rules, into scenarios that could not be properly interpreted and ruled on when the rule was clear.)

You are correct on one matter.  This bickering apparently is about what appears to me, as a non-computer guru, the difficulty in establishing a program similar to that or those programs which already accommodate a similar event.  Also, there seems to be an issue about declining number of entries, which is a problem that PAMPA could be addressing totally absent of any Expert scheduling subject.  The less than positive approach by a few at the apex of our competition and leadership hierarchy who are against the idea of at least trying a different approach which might, just might, help increase participation at the Nats does tend to blunt enthusiasm for the Nats event.

Keith
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 01:40:33 PM by Trostle »

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #228 on: July 31, 2012, 01:34:37 PM »
....And when were appearance points taken away and then restored?  Were those changes that had to be made sometime with the Nats format in the last several years since you started generating programs to assist the ED?  I did not know that appearance points were never part of the Nats or our CLPA event....

I think he was talking about having to take the appearance points out of the program and then put it back into the program again.

The appearance points have never been removed from the nats.

Doug Moon
AMA 496454
Dougmoon12@yahoo.com

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #229 on: July 31, 2012, 02:53:18 PM »
Orestes model is 100% Boom legal

"Boom"!  How perfect!  As in blowing something up, right!

Offline proparc

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #230 on: July 31, 2012, 03:13:32 PM »
"Boom"!  How perfect!  As in blowing something up, right!

No, as in lowering the Boom on the competition. LL~
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 05:34:07 PM by proparc »
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #231 on: July 31, 2012, 07:19:03 PM »
No, as in lowering the Boom on the competition. LL~

SHARKS
AMA 12366

Offline proparc

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #232 on: July 31, 2012, 07:36:20 PM »
SHARKS

I thought Warren Tiahart passed his plane as 100% legal. If so, whats gives?
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #233 on: July 31, 2012, 08:26:15 PM »
NO Not Legal and the BOM rule that it flew under was dumped last year by the AMA and the pre 2004 rule was  the one they fell back to

Randy

Offline proparc

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #234 on: July 31, 2012, 08:39:15 PM »
NO Not Legal and the BOM rule that it flew under was dumped last year by the AMA and the pre 2004 rule was  the one they fell back to

Randy

delete
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 11:29:02 PM by proparc »
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Trostle

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #235 on: July 31, 2012, 10:23:25 PM »
I thought Warren Tiahart passed his plane as 100% legal. If so, whats gives?

That was several years ago.  The airplane was assembled from a special kit comprised of parts and pieces provided by the designers.  The process was documented for and then and verified by Tiahart prior to the contest to be compliant with the BOM rule.  Unfortunately, some have pushed the process such that anything that might look like that BOM compliant model could also be BOM compliant.

Keith

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #236 on: July 31, 2012, 10:25:13 PM »
That one plane has long sense meet its demise (crash) so just because one was deemed legal does not make any others legal. I also would bet with all the brewhaha that's involved with these planes another one does not get certified legal. Unless its Uri's
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Offline proparc

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #237 on: July 31, 2012, 11:28:31 PM »
That was several years ago.  The airplane was assembled from a special kit comprised of parts and pieces provided by the designers.  The process was documented for and then and verified by Tiahart prior to the contest to be compliant with the BOM rule.  Unfortunately, some have pushed the process such that anything that might look like that BOM compliant model could also be BOM compliant.

Keith

Kind of wish you posted this sooner. Now I have to remove my post about being the first Cuban etc.
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Walker Cup.....
« Reply #238 on: August 01, 2012, 10:59:45 AM »
And when were appearance points taken away and then restored?

Sorry.  Pattern points. 
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