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Author Topic: Walker's Stab Leading Edge  (Read 13112 times)

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2019, 02:21:54 AM »
Emperical data trumps analytical data.

It certainly trumps misapplied analytical data.  In the case of the stab LE, Igor and Frank have given us some plausible analyses.  See post #17 here: http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=133980&mesg_id=133980&listing_type=search#133990 .
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2019, 06:30:07 AM »
Hello Paul,

Thank you for the reply. HT's?

Also is it pointed and then flat or is arifoiled the whole back?
Elevators airfoiled too?

Thank you
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2019, 08:52:05 AM »
Hello Paul,

Thank you for the reply. HT's?

Also is it pointed and then flat or is arifoiled the whole back?
Elevators airfoiled too?

Thank you

HT = Horizontal tail

My tail is tapered from the LE to about 0.80" aft of there. It is then flat. The elevators are straight tapered from the hinge line to the TE.


I am not suggesting that Howard's or Frank's or Igor's analytical data is wrong. That data gas some emperical data that helps validate it. Data without any emperical data to validate it is simply analytical data.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2019, 09:30:11 AM »
I became interested in the sharp HT LE's in the mid '90's. I built a new stab with a sharp LE on a take apart Impact in '97. This test replaced a removable stab with one the same size and weight. I tested it and found no significant improvement. It was dropped at that point.

Years later after I had switched to electric power, I became unhappy with the variation I found in HT effectivness in colder to warmer conditions. Either could be adjusted to quality, but the change was unacceptable. Once again I pulled out that same stab from '97, and installed it on 2 Impacts, and the second Predator. The change in each plane was remarkable. Tracking improved, turn and stop improved, the control feel was more linear. The second Predator was interesting as it had non linear flap mechanisms in it, and still felt more linear.

Do you think the reason there wasn't an apparent difference the first time you tested is one of those slime vs. 'lectric things?  Or do you think there may be some other reason that you didn't notice much difference on your '97 Impact?

Someone needs to run a deliberately unbalanced electric to see -- and they can solve their control stickiness problems at the same time!
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Offline frank williams

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2019, 09:48:30 AM »
Once again let me point out that this data was for a Re = 20,000 and our typical stab is at ~ Re = 200,000.   But none the less, I found it interesting anyway, in that the reversed airfoil had a linear lift response through zero alpha.  The conventional direction for the airfoil at this Re was interesting in its “deadness” around zero alpha +/- 1.5 degrees, but once again, not at our Reynolds number.  Hoerner (Fluid Dynamic Lift) has data for a reversed 0012 at a Re=2,500,000, once again not at our Re.   It shows the same very linear effect through zero as does the Re = 20,000.  I make a leap to assume that for our speeds the effect is the same.  So the force from the stab around zero alpha is responsive and predictable.

The “dead effect” around zero is very pronounced for the Re 20,000 case.  Data for a 0012 at high Re generally doesn’t show it.  At our Re, it’s probably there, dependent on the leading edge shape.
 
At any rate, my gut feel, like David’s, was that the sharp leading edge would be disaster with any incidence at all.  But, as we see, it isn’t too shabby at all, very one-to-one for angles of +/- 8-9 degrees.

Which brings up another question.  What incidence does the stab see during a square corner?  As Howard’s diagram above depicts, as the pitch rate starts, the driving angle-of-attack on stab is decreased, due to the tail length and the rotation rate.  So, what is the range of alpha of the stab?  It may be that it never gets above +/- 5 degrees or maybe 10 degrees.  Is there any way to capture that in flight?

A guy walks into the wind tunnel area and asks, “which one of those guys is Richard Whitcomb?”  The response was, “the one holding the metal file”.  Whitcomb apparently was always willing to do a little filing to the model to seek a better result.

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2019, 01:02:54 PM »
 This theory-vs.-practice thing with Paul goes way back.  When Paul and I were out flying he'd suggest a counterintuitive trim change.  I'd do it, and it would work.  I'd ask, "Why did that work?" He'd just roll his eyes.  That went on for years.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2019, 02:03:01 PM »
This theory-vs.-practice thing with Paul goes way back.  When Paul and I were out flying he'd suggest a counterintuitive trim change.  I'd do it, and it would work.  I'd ask, "Why did that work?" He'd just roll his eyes.  That went on for years.

When I was a newbie engineer fresh out of college it was theory all the way (in spite of a sensible practical blue-collar upbringing).  Then it was "OK, we'll go with counter-intuitive practice after we've expanded the theory to account for it".  Now it's "OK, fine, whatever works; I'll reconcile theory and practice in my spare time".
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2019, 02:09:44 PM »
Do you think the reason there wasn't an apparent difference the first time you tested is one of those slime vs. 'lectric things?  Or do you think there may be some other reason that you didn't notice much difference on your '97 Impact?

Someone needs to run a deliberately unbalanced electric to see -- and they can solve their control stickiness problems at the same time!


1)  I do not know why the IC version didn't work. The difference between IC and electric is the CG and leadout position. The IC CG was much further aft (even considering the fuel), and the leadouts much farther forward.

2) what stickiness issue?


Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2019, 02:13:05 PM »
This theory-vs.-practice thing with Paul goes way back.  When Paul and I were out flying he'd suggest a counterintuitive trim change.  I'd do it, and it would work.  I'd ask, "Why did that work?" He'd just roll his eyes.  That went on for years.


What's missing here is the fact that the change is counterintuitive in my eyes as well, but years of testing showed me certain things work....thus the rolling eyes.. as there was no explaining why it worked.

As in our current LO positions on NW electric planes......
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 03:57:26 PM by Paul Walker »

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2019, 02:45:25 PM »
As in out current LO positions on NW electric planes......

Or having to move the vertical CG up on electric planes.

As in out current LO positions on NW electric planes......

Got mine way back.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2019, 02:57:01 PM »
2) what stickiness issue?

People who don't build control systems as well as you have complained about their 'lectric stunters hunting, and the cure has been to git rid of friction in their control systems.  (Well, from my perspective the cure has been to tell them to get rid of friction in their control systems).  Doing so is reported to work.  It has been hypothesized that flying an airplane that doesn't have a giant powerful vibrator in the front of it makes the control more sensitive to stiction.  It has been further hypothesized, by those of questionable senses of humor, that intentionally unbalancing the motor would clear those stiction problems right up.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2019, 04:09:26 PM »
People who don't build control systems as well as you have complained about their 'lectric stunters hunting, and the cure has been to git rid of friction in their control systems.  (Well, from my perspective the cure has been to tell them to get rid of friction in their control systems).  Doing so is reported to work.  It has been hypothesized that flying an airplane that doesn't have a giant powerful vibrator in the front of it makes the control more sensitive to stiction.  It has been further hypothesized, by those of questionable senses of humor, that intentionally unbalancing the motor would clear those stiction problems right up.
As long as we are "topic bending" I think the vibration coming from an IC vs an electric is more acoustic than harmonic.  Both will vibrate if they are out of balance and it is almost impossible to get either in perfect balance.  I have seen how a ball joint can stick when it is just sitting there but I don't know how it could do it in the air once the plane has line tension and with no slop,  those flaps are not going to move on their own, (especially if it is the plane that is pulling Ted out of the circle on another thread).  I could be all wet on this one and I am not advocating for stickey controls, it just seems that eliminating hunting is more of a trim problem and will depend a lot on the pilot's style.

Just to be clear, I don't consider "Binding" to be the same as sticking.  Controls should never bind. And, I don't consider hunting to be bouncing around in crappy air.

Ken
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Online Howard Rush

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2019, 04:53:24 PM »
NASA proposed piezoelectric devices that would hum on a wing to keep the flow attached.  I think they tried it in a wind tunnel.  We investigated and decided it wouldn't scale up well.  As I recall, it would have used a lot of power and would have been loud.  Maybe it would work on a stunter.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2019, 06:13:50 PM »
NASA proposed piezoelectric devices that would hum on a wing to keep the flow attached.  I think they tried it in a wind tunnel.  We investigated and decided it wouldn't scale up well.  As I recall, it would have used a lot of power and would have been loud.  Maybe it would work on a stunter.

So, what would you play?  Inna Gadda da Vida?  Stairway to Heaven (just the loud parts)?  Smoke on the Water?
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2019, 08:25:00 PM »
So, what would you play?  Inna Gadda da Vida?  Stairway to Heaven (just the loud parts)?  Smoke on the Water?
I was thinking about a small speaker near the flap horn.  Led Zeppelin or some Buddy Rich.  We could trigger it with the LG option on the timer.

Ken
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2019, 08:50:31 PM »
  I have seen how a ball joint can stick when it is just sitting there but I don't know how it could do it in the air once the plane has line tension and with no slop,  those flaps are not going to move on their own, (especially if it is the plane that is pulling Ted out of the circle on another thread). 

Ken
[/quote]

This  IS one of the problems. They can get sticky after some flight time, and cause real tracking issues. Unfortunately, I have a plane like that and have resisted cutting into it to replace them.

I now have only one ball link in a plane that could possibly bind, and it is at the tail and could be replaced if necessary.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2019, 09:07:57 PM »
  I have seen how a ball joint can stick when it is just sitting there but I don't know how it could do it in the air once the plane has line tension and with no slop,  those flaps are not going to move on their own, (especially if it is the plane that is pulling Ted out of the circle on another thread). 

Ken


This  IS one of the problems. They can get sticky after some flight time, and cause real tracking issues. Unfortunately, I have a plane like that and have resisted cutting into it to replace them.

I now have only one ball link in a plane that could possibly bind, and it is at the tail and could be replaced if necessary.

     I hadn't seen that until last year, but I had also been using the original batch of links I got back in ~1988. Last year as a stunt clinic, we did the "triage" session on Dennis Nunes' airplane, and found a bunch of slop in the controls. Bad, right? So we looked down the leadout slot and saw the whole link tilting. OK, swell, we'll cut holes and tighten them up. Duly accomplished, but then the controls were so bound up we could barely move it, completely hopeless.

     This was (I think) the DuBro copy of the Rocket City #87 link. It was absolutely hopeless, unusable. I got uncomfortable and checked my other airplanes, including the original from 1988. Still loose as a goose.
   
   The issue is the plastic binding up for some reason over time. I have started looking for an acceptable metal link to use instead. They are generally plenty free enough and very unlikely to shrink and bind up, however, the construction makes me very nervous, and most of them have visible ridges on the ball part, requiring excessive clearance to be able to move, and very likely wearing out the aluminum link body. I haven't found anything acceptable yet.

     Brett

Offline Target

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2019, 09:27:26 PM »

I now have only one ball link in a plane that could possibly bind, and it is at the tail and could be replaced if necessary.

What type of linkage are you using now, specifically with the adjustable flaps??

Thanks Paul.

Vr,
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2019, 09:35:25 PM »
What type of linkage are you using now, specifically with the adjustable flaps??

Thanks Paul.

Vr,
Target

Standard "old tech" 3/32 piano wire in brass bushings. Works great.

The one ball link in the adjuster mechanism does not have the bolt fully tightened down on the ball. The ball can spin in the plastic clevis AND the ball can spin on the bolt if the clevis tightens. This has been in several planes now and works fine.

Offline Target

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2019, 09:44:43 PM »
Thanks Paul.

Makes sense to me.

Vr,
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Chris
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2019, 08:22:56 AM »

This  IS one of the problems. They can get sticky after some flight time, and cause real tracking issues. Unfortunately, I have a plane like that and have resisted cutting into it to replace them.
I am going to defer to those with more experience.  H^^  I have only been back at it for a little over a year and have never had an issue.  Evidently it takes more time than that to have the problem.  I also tap and thread my horns and use lock nuts so that I do not tighten so much that the ball cannot move and I do not distort it.  Maybe that helps.

Given our fondness for hatches and panel lines, what would be wrong with having a hatch or removable canopy that would give us access to a fully adjustable flap horn(s) and going back to full metal linkages?  Has anybody tried ball bearings?  I have seen them as small as 2mm ID?  I love IC and do miss all of the challenge associated with getting them to run the same regardless of the weather but I am also convinced that electric is the future, that is why I am going that way.  If ball links are a problem with electric then let's find a way to eliminate them or acceptance of ways to replace them periodically.

Ken
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Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2019, 12:41:59 PM »
Howard,

Thanks for your comment!

Prandtl and Tietgens (sp) long ago considered ways to consider flow conditions in fluids. (I read it, but can't do the math; I could follow it, sorta. Air is a fluid, but not a liquid fluid - a gaseous fluid fills a container, a liquid in an oversize container will form a surface preserving its actual volume.)

Situation in our "squares" seems to me to be like rapidly plunging a flat rectangle of, say, wood perpendicularly into a liquid surface. Flow around the object will be very disturbed zone... That may affect what happens to a faired surface following the disturbance... Can aerodynamics of reasonably smooth flow apply?

Instead of  "path the model flies through, perhaps I should have said "path the model moves through". It is actually more like a 4-wheel drift than a loose rear pair oversteering outlaw cornering posture, no?
\BEST\LOU

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2019, 01:20:56 PM »
I am going to defer to those with more experience.  H^^  I have only been back at it for a little over a year and have never had an issue.  Evidently it takes more time than that to have the problem.

It also varies from part to part.  I have a Twister that's about six years old (I'd need to check).  It has three ball links in it and has probably 500 flights on it, and the control system is as free as when I built it.  But I know that other folks have problems.

The issue is that if you make a nice slop-free ball joint, it'll be subject to binding if the outside part shrinks or the inside part grows.  With the kind of precision that you get with plastic-on-metal, this means you can't anticipate which ones will last forever and which ones will seize up.
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2019, 01:55:57 PM »
Well, as "fate" would have it, today, I was collecting all the pieces needed to assemble my new plane. Before construction I had "ONE" free ball link, and I put it aside. Pulled it out to put on the pushrod, and you know I don't have to tell you what happened.
Yup..it had tightened up. Total garbage now.

No problem,  I will just raid one off an old plane that I dob't use anymore. No dice, it was tight also. It's not as if my shop was freezing, because it is a toasty 63F inside.

So, necessity is the mother of invention. I came up with a way to make the "ball link" work perfectly. I will take a few pictures and show them here when complete.

Why didn't I think of this before???

Offline tom brightbill

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2019, 02:30:07 PM »
Given the variation in the ball links, I have taken to pressing out the ball, run a 4-40 bolt through it, and lock down with a nut.  Mount the bolt in a drill press , and using a fine file turn it and just kiss the sphere a bit.  Check for fit by pressing back in place, if not happy, refile until it's good. It's actually quick and easy, but I hope Paul's remedy is easier.
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2019, 02:46:12 PM »
HT = Horizontal tail

My tail is tapered from the LE to about 0.80" aft of there. It is then flat. The elevators are straight tapered from the hinge line to the TE.


I am not suggesting that Howard's or Frank's or Igor's analytical data is wrong. That data gas some emperical data that helps validate it. Data without any emperical data to validate it is simply analytical data.

    Hi Paul;
    In a previous post, Doug Moon has mentioned adapting a triangle balsa stick to the leading edge on a model to test the theory and had issues. removing the stick brought the model back to it's previous stable trim. That's a pretty steep angle but still having a sharp leading edge.  The dimensions above have been the only mention of how long to make the "slope" of the leading edge and I have been wondering about that. I had been reading this thread as it went along hoping that the length of the leading edge would be discussed more. Even though Doug had a " sharp" leading edge with the triangle stock, I think this is still relatively blunt and the air going over the top and bottom can still get turbulated as it goes across the edges. I'm thinking that having a longer, shallow angle is the key here. Can you elaborate on this aspect of it?
  Type at you later,
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2019, 04:18:57 PM »
Since all my ball joints are stiff, I decided to remedy the situation. First I pressed the ball out of the clevis. Then measured the hole and found the nearest size of brass tubing. It was a touch loose, but that was perfect. I cleaned the inside of the ball race, and applied JB Weld inside to fill the contour of the race. Next, a length of the brass tubing was cut to length, cleaned, deburred, and inserted in the hole. Another length of tubing was necessary, and it was cut a tad longer than the first, and also JB Welded into place. Liberal application of the glue was applied around the protruding tube, and the face of the clevis. The first picture shows this. When cured, they will be faced off.

The second picture shows the final piece. A 4-40 bolt, a washer, another length of smaller tubing, and this will fit inside the clevis assembly.

The final picture shows how it will fit up.

There is enough "gap" between the last two tubes to allow a small amount of rock, and a very free rotation that will not eventually bind. It is in the tail so any significant rock is not necessary.

Tomorrow after the glue cures, it can be assembled.

Hope this explains it sufficiently.

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2019, 04:31:46 PM »
Dan,
Here is a photo of the geometry of the HT LE.

It reaches the full stab thickness in 0.80"

Help?

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2019, 07:02:28 PM »
Dan,
Here is a photo of the geometry of the HT LE.

It reaches the full stab thickness in 0.80"

Help?


    Oh, I understood what the dimension represented, I'm just curious with how many different  "lengths" of the leading edge did you try? Is this a minimum? A certain ratio depending on stab thickness? Given what I have read in this thread, I think you can be too short, but is there a maximum length?  I have a model that I am going to do a face lift on, and I might redo the stab in this fashion, but just want to do it once! Is this treatment good for any stab location in relation to the wing/thrust line? Or mainly something for 0-0-0 set ups?  I have two airplanes that I tried to build identical, but they were ten years apart! I used same engine/tank combination and tried to make the second airplane as much of a clone as the first in order to minimize trimming issues. The second model came out just a bit lighter and my plan worked as it flew exactly the same as the first model. So much so that I was able to fly a pretty decent pattern on the first flight after an upright and inverted wings level eyeball check and lap time check. But both models turn better outside than they do inside and I haven't been able to figure out why. They do fly well enough for me to compete with and have done well with them over the years, but the turn thing still bothers me a bit. The stab on this design might be a bit higher than the norm I think but I really haven't had the time with work and family stuff through the years to really dig into it, just put up with it and dealt with it.  This sharper leading edge has me wondering if that may help in this circumstance.
    Thanks a lot,
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2019, 08:15:23 PM »

    Oh, I understood what the dimension represented, I'm just curious with how many different  "lengths" of the leading edge did you try? Is this a minimum? A certain ratio depending on stab thickness? Given what I have read in this thread, I think you can be too short, but is there a maximum length?  I have a model that I am going to do a face lift on, and I might redo the stab in this fashion, but just want to do it once! Is this treatment good for any stab location in relation to the wing/thrust line? Or mainly something for 0-0-0 set ups?  I have two airplanes that I tried to build identical, but they were ten years apart! I used same engine/tank combination and tried to make the second airplane as much of a clone as the first in order to minimize trimming issues. The second model came out just a bit lighter and my plan worked as it flew exactly the same as the first model. So much so that I was able to fly a pretty decent pattern on the first flight after an upright and inverted wings level eyeball check and lap time check. But both models turn better outside than they do inside and I haven't been able to figure out why. They do fly well enough for me to compete with and have done well with them over the years, but the turn thing still bothers me a bit. The stab on this design might be a bit higher than the norm I think but I really haven't had the time with work and family stuff through the years to really dig into it, just put up with it and dealt with it.  This sharper leading edge has me wondering if that may help in this circumstance.
    Thanks a lot,
  Dan McEntee


I have several both ways. The position of the stab does not appear to make any differencs.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 11:00:03 PM by Paul Walker »

Offline Target

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2019, 10:52:29 PM »

    A certain ratio depending on stab thickness?
    Thanks a lot,
  Dan McEntee

Seemingly so,  5T : 8L.
I'm also interested in if the ratio matters. Sounds like it needs to be lesser than 1 : 1 at least.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2019, 11:04:32 PM »
Seemingly so,  5T : 8L.
I'm also interested in if the ratio matters. Sounds like it needs to be lesser than 1 : 1 at least.

Ratio: I assume you mean elevator deflection to flap deflection.

Mine run fairly close to 1:1.  Each is adjusted to its own preference.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2019, 11:16:35 PM »
Ratio: I assume you mean elevator deflection to flap deflection.

Mine run fairly close to 1:1.  Each is adjusted to its own preference.


      Nope, not elevator/flap, but length of the 'slope" of the leading edge, is what I'm referring to. This is all about airflow over the stab to the elevators, correct?  In the model I am talking about, I have enough deflection. In fact, I can stall the airplane going into an inside square or coming out of it if I'm not careful. Having two airplanes that fly almost exactly the same way built ten years apart  made me wonder if it was something in the design? I had read a long time ago something in which Ted Fancher tried taping a piece of wire to the leading edge of a stabilizer on some one's airplane and helping with an issue. I even tried that but did not see any difference. This is much like Doug taping some triangle stock to his leading edges and things went south for him. What Paul has drawn up can be incorporated into my airplane when I refinish it, but like I said in the beginning, I want to try and get it right the first time.
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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Offline Target

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2019, 11:37:29 PM »
Ratio: I assume you mean elevator deflection to flap deflection.

Mine run fairly close to 1:1.  Each is adjusted to its own preference.

Nope, sorry to not be more clear.
Dan and i are intrigued by your HT LE slope/shaping. Did you try a steeper slope initially or is that .8" arc per (i assume by your plan) .5" thickness random?
From reading your other posts, I'm guessing it's not random.
Thanks in advance.

Vr,
Target
Regards,
Chris
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Online Howard Rush

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2019, 01:50:13 AM »
I'm curious, is Howard currently flying with the pointy L/E?

No, not yet.  I have a flat stab with a semicircular LE, as on Impacts of old.  There are clear vinyl lattice trip strips, made by Mike Haverly, on the LE intended to keep the laminar-turbulent transition fixed.  They are almost invisible, but look cool in sunlight. 
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2019, 07:58:34 AM »
No, not yet.  I have a flat stab with a semicircular LE, as on Impacts of old.  There are clear vinyl lattice trip strips, made by Mike Haverly, on the LE intended to keep the laminar-turbulent transition fixed.  They are almost invisible, but look cool in sunlight.

   On the similar "flat stab" Trivial Pursuits, they ended up with wires taped to the LE at various points for the same reason. Right at the nose (effectively creating a point) and top and bottom, right were the LE went from curved to flat.

   That was the motivation behind David's DeTails article, to experiment with different stab airfoils (and at my behest, incidence, which not surprisingly, made more difference in the results).

    Brett

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2019, 09:53:04 AM »
The geometry in the picture was from the stab test I did in '97.

It worked so well in two Impacts, two Predators, that I continued to use it.  It is also in two P-47's, two Hellcats, and now Bearcats.

I just haven't felt like building a fleet of different stabs to test them out, as the one I have works so well.

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2019, 06:55:21 PM »
So, Paul, you're saying it was just a "lucky stab" that you arrived at a ratio LE design that works for you.
Pun intended.
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Chris
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2019, 08:10:30 PM »
So, Paul, you're saying it was just a "lucky stab" that you arrived at a ratio LE design that works for you.
Pun intended.

 ::)    ;D

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #89 on: February 25, 2019, 08:12:43 AM »
The geometry in the picture was from the stab test I did in '97.

It worked so well in two Impacts, two Predators, that I continued to use it.  It is also in two P-47's, two Hellcats, and now Bearcats.

I just haven't felt like building a fleet of different stabs to test them out, as the one I have works so well.
Paul:

I have a new ship that I test flew yesterday (without final finish - gotta love electric) that has a "sharp" LE (1/16 Diameter).  Would it be worth my effort to cap it with a more pointed one before final finish?  I am not sure what characteristic is improved.  It doesn't hunt and it locks out of corners really well now.

Ken
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2019, 08:50:45 AM »
Paul:

I have a new ship that I test flew yesterday (without final finish - gotta love electric) that has a "sharp" LE (1/16 Diameter).  Would it be worth my effort to cap it with a more pointed one before final finish?  I am not sure what characteristic is improved.  It doesn't hunt and it locks out of corners really well now.

Ken

If it flies up to your expectations, then I wouldn't touch it.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #91 on: February 25, 2019, 10:17:40 AM »
If it flies up to your expectations, then I wouldn't touch it.
Thanks, I will leave it as is.  I thought mine were "sharp" till I saw yours!

Ken
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #92 on: February 25, 2019, 10:30:41 AM »
Paul:

I have a new ship that I test flew yesterday (without final finish - gotta love electric) that has a "sharp" LE (1/16 Diameter).  Would it be worth my effort to cap it with a more pointed one before final finish?  I am not sure what characteristic is improved.  It doesn't hunt and it locks out of corners really well now.

   It doesn't have to be super-sharp like a knife-edge. Mine have had a LE radius of about 3/32" - but the rest of the stab is an airfoil, and gets thicker all the way to the hinge line. It flies very well, never has these sorts of issues that David had with the flat-stab Trivial Pursuits, and using either tripper strips, zigzag strips, or vortex generators has never made any consequential difference in the performance. I could hear the difference with VGs, it made a faint whooshing sound, but that's about it.

   The original Trivial Pursuit, and David's first model, had an airfoiled stab, but the high point was far forward like the wing and the nose was pretty blunt. I think that created a similar issue at times, with the separation bubbles forming further back. But they were relatively stable, so they didn't have the sorts of issues the flat stab/round LE seemed to cause on the later examples (and subsequently required gadgets like turbulators to optimize).

    My elevators have something else I ripped off, unapologetically, from Paul - there are no sharp edges along the hinge lines. The elevator comes to a point at the hinge line, but everywhere else, the corners are rounded off with a about a 1/4" radius.

     Brett

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #93 on: February 25, 2019, 11:36:00 AM »
   It doesn't have to be super-sharp like a knife-edge. Mine have had a LE radius of about 3/32" - but the rest of the stab is an airfoil, and gets thicker all the way to the hinge line. It flies very well, never has these sorts of issues that David had with the flat-stab Trivial Pursuits, and using either tripper strips, zigzag strips, or vortex generators has never made any consequential difference in the performance. I could hear the difference with VGs, it made a faint whooshing sound, but that's about it.

   The original Trivial Pursuit, and David's first model, had an airfoiled stab, but the high point was far forward like the wing and the nose was pretty blunt. I think that created a similar issue at times, with the separation bubbles forming further back. But they were relatively stable, so they didn't have the sorts of issues the flat stab/round LE seemed to cause on the later examples (and subsequently required gadgets like turbulators to optimize).

    My elevators have something else I ripped off, unapologetically, from Paul - there are no sharp edges along the hinge lines. The elevator comes to a point at the hinge line, but everywhere else, the corners are rounded off with a about a 1/4" radius.

     Brett
You are probably right.  I have never had a flat airfoil on a competition ship.  This is the airfoil from the one pictured in my question to Paul.  It is 1/2" thick at the highpoint which is just ahead of the hinge line.  The elevators are recessed and 7/16 thick at the hinge.  If that looks good I am moving on.  Probably the last time I will do recessed anything.  Looks good but doesn't fly any better.

Ken
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Offline Joe Ed Pederson

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #94 on: February 26, 2019, 11:12:29 AM »
In response to a question about how he connects the bell crank to the flaps, Paul Walker responded:

Standard "old tech" 3/32 piano wire in brass bushings. Works great.]


[I can't figure out how to keep my remarks below from looking like they are a quote of something Paul wrote]

In that vein, I'm going to follow Tom Dixon's control pushrod system of 3/32" music wire with carbon fiber tubing (.100" ID) slid over the wire and super glued to the piano wire.

I ordered .100" ID CF tubing from CST products and got an email saying they were out of stock and their supplier wasn't going to make CF tubing to .100" ID any more.

I found .098" ID CF tubing at Midwestproducts.com.  Forty inches was $7.46.  I ordered two tubes and the shipping was only $5.00.

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #95 on: February 27, 2019, 12:58:10 PM »
In response to a question about how he connects the bell crank to the flaps, Paul Walker responded:

Standard "old tech" 3/32 piano wire in brass bushings. Works great.]


[I can't figure out how to keep my remarks below from looking like they are a quote of something Paul wrote]

  You have to close the quote tag before you type your response, that is:

{quote} text being quoted {/quote} with the curly brackets replaced with square brackets.

    Brett

Offline phil c

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #96 on: February 27, 2019, 04:32:19 PM »
.....Danged if I know how the stab could get much lift in this condition:

The picture you show, Howard,  looks a lot like the shape used on many free-flighters- a seriously cambered airfoil..  The air going over the bottom side of the stab gets all its lift from the large flaps.  The bottom of the airfoil(pointing up) generates very little of the lift.  In that condition the size of the leading edge doesn't matter as much, but a sharp leading edge would make sure that whatever the stab was doing happened with very little control.

Many years ago I did something similar for profile carrier.  The flaps were something like 1/3 the chord made from sheet balsa.  It also had  a very large stab, maybe 40% 'cause I knew I needed something to control that wing.

It flew perfectly fine but its carrier maners left somthing to be desired.  During low speed flight the nose pointed about 20° down.  A 28 oz plane at 13mph slow didn't need but may 10% of the lift available.  5 deg° flap, maybe zero flaps would have worked well.  Carrier wasn't my bag and I quit when they all started prop hanging for low speed flight.
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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #97 on: March 03, 2019, 12:03:59 AM »
I've used it myself.  I built a 1/10th-scale 777 wing to investigate whether the ground maneuvering camera that Dave Fitzgerald doesn't like could see the landing gear when the sun was reflecting off the wing and the gear was on the other side of the wing from the sun: a phenomenon we called "shadow".

Ok Howard, If it works that seems to be good enough for you.
But not me. I want to know Why it works.

I actually have a degree in aerospace engineering, with a study of high lifting low velocity airfoils, that I got back in 1991. Useless because I chose a different path in my career.
But yes indeed when wind is deflected, in any means, there is a "shadow".

Now all I've been mentioning is "what happens to the air when you choose a sharp airfoil. If it works in Stunt, then I'd like to know why it works.
Also, I'm not sure you understand what the word "efficiency" means. As you said it's not what stunt pilots are after.
Efficient and Coefficient are to separate words. They are not a term. I later just rephrased my sentence to mean the same thing.

Others:
I still wonder of the practices in stunt. It's a very unorthodox method and very intriguing. The only way I'll learn is by asking. And the only way I'll understand is by questioning, Why..

Earlier I mentioned an idea of why a sharp LE would be better for these stunt pilots. I made this guess in relation to what I know happens physically to the surface of the stab.
I'm not trying to act as if I know everything, on the contrary. I don't know. But I do want to know. That's why I ask. 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #98 on: March 03, 2019, 10:47:08 AM »
Ok Howard, If it works that seems to be good enough for you.
But not me. I want to know Why it works.

Brett has offered a cognizant explanations of why it is believed to work.  If you keep in mind that the purpose of the part is a control surface and not surface to provide lots of lift, then the notion that we're trading off some drag for a lot of consistency works for me.

Beyond that, I can only see two ways to resolve your question, because none of the freaking experts we have on the group (i.e., Brett, Paul, possibly Howard, and possibly Lou) know the answer, which is -- go do a lot of work, and find out for yourself.  Either find a computational fluid dynamics program that you trust (I suggest x-foil and Martin Hepperle's Java app, but the last time I was really serious about this was about ten years ago -- there may be better open-source CFD programs out there), do the simulations (at various elevator deflections) and check, or build a wind tunnel and a stab and check.  Or if you know some university types, build a stab and get some time on a wind tunnel somewhere.

Because what we have here is a water-cooler discussion that involves some pretty heavyweight technical types; any junior engineer that's not satisfied with the answer needs to go off quietly and do some careful work to either confirm or contradict what's been said.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #99 on: March 03, 2019, 11:30:12 AM »
Earlier I mentioned an idea of why a sharp LE would be better for these stunt pilots. I made this guess in relation to what I know happens physically to the surface of the stab.
I'm not trying to act as if I know everything, on the contrary. I don't know. But I do want to know. That's why I ask.

   I don't think anyone has a problem with that, however, you are also not listening to the answers, or rather, dismissing them out of hand for differing with your preconceived notions. That's not a crime, at most it is mildly irritating. But it's also common bordering on ubiquitous for people to have a theory that sort of works for them, then hold on to it like grim death even in the presence of abundant contrary information. No one particularly begrudges that - you are free to use whatever theory you want.

     Fortunately, we have a method for determining who is right, it's in Muncie in July. And it's not like we are curing cancer, no one is harmed if any of us guess wrong. 

    This was a well-understood issue 20 years ago, there have been multiple internet posts and SN articles about the phenomenon, particularly with blunt flat stabs.  Paul has since adopted the same idea and there is no one who is a more careful experimenter or more capable of evaluating the results. I think making it pointy but otherwise flat is a transitional state to making it airfoiled, but there are tradeoffs in everything. The underlying concept is proven (by dint of endless hours in the 100+ degree sun experimenting with it over the years) to the extent I think it needs to be proven. If that's not good enough, well, you know what to do.

    I am a little concerned when I see talk of "helical flow pictures" or "stunt planes don't roll so what does dihedral do", from the other threads, which are pretty naive comments for an aeronautical engineer, but again, naiveté is not a crime, either. There are also plenty of things we definitely *don't* understand very well or at all, so the rest of us are on the same path - just much further along it.

    Brett

     

   


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