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Author Topic: Walker's Stab Leading Edge  (Read 13214 times)

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #100 on: March 03, 2019, 11:36:22 AM »
  I don't have anything to offer in the way of explanations or ideas, but I think that the "sharp leading edge" statement by itself doesn't give the whole picture now that we have gotten this far. "Sharp leading Edge" tends to infer just the actual point on the leading edge, but I think it needs to be kept in mind that the transition to the surface is part of any success or improvement. Just a blunt, shallow "sharp, pointy leading edge" isn't the same thing. I just was looking at the plans for Charles Parrot's P-47 Thunderbolt classic legal model and the profile of the stab airfoil on that airplane. That was about 1964 or so but it's right on par with the discussion here, I think.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #101 on: March 03, 2019, 11:57:53 AM »
  I don't have anything to offer in the way of explanations or ideas, but I think that the "sharp leading edge" statement by itself doesn't give the whole picture now that we have gotten this far. "Sharp leading Edge" tends to infer just the actual point on the leading edge, but I think it needs to be kept in mind that the transition to the surface is part of any success or improvement. Just a blunt, shallow "sharp, pointy leading edge" isn't the same thing. I just was looking at the plans for Charles Parrot's P-47 Thunderbolt classic legal model and the profile of the stab airfoil on that airplane. That was about 1964 or so but it's right on par with the discussion here, I think.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

   So is the one on the Green Box Nobler. But you don't know whether something is better or not, without trying to make it better and failing.

    Brett

Offline IdRatherBeBuilding

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #102 on: March 03, 2019, 12:44:58 PM »
   I don't think anyone has a problem with that, however, you are also not listening to the answers, or rather, dismissing them out of hand for differing with your preconceived notions. That's not a crime, at most it is mildly irritating. But it's also common bordering on ubiquitous for people to have a theory that sort of works for them, then hold on to it like grim death even in the presence of abundant contrary information. No one particularly begrudges that - you are free to use whatever theory you want.

     Fortunately, we have a method for determining who is right, it's in Muncie in July. And it's not like we are curing cancer, no one is harmed if any of us guess wrong. 

    This was a well-understood issue 20 years ago, there have been multiple internet posts and SN articles about the phenomenon, particularly with blunt flat stabs.  Paul has since adopted the same idea and there is no one who is a more careful experimenter or more capable of evaluating the results. I think making it pointy but otherwise flat is a transitional state to making it airfoiled, but there are tradeoffs in everything. The underlying concept is proven (by dint of endless hours in the 100+ degree sun experimenting with it over the years) to the extent I think it needs to be proven. If that's not good enough, well, you know what to do.

    I am a little concerned when I see talk of "helical flow pictures" or "stunt planes don't roll so what does dihedral do", from the other threads, which are pretty naive comments for an aeronautical engineer, but again, naiveté is not a crime, either. There are also plenty of things we definitely *don't* understand very well or at all, so the rest of us are on the same path - just much further along it.

    Brett

     
I'm not nor have I questioned whether or not it is successful. I simply questioned why it works for these guys.
I don't think too many have an understanding of this. Why it works. But just that it does. Having thin airfoils with sharp leading edges are not creating more drag, as Dan just stated, but less drag. You guys should know that. Just look at CL speed rigs.

And then Howard stating that Efficiency and Stunt do not go together (I'm probably paraphrasing) makes me believe he doesn't understand the word efficiency. Because that doesn't make sense.

Or that sometimes the laminar airflow is never separated. It always has some point of separation.

The effects of the elevator is what I have been questioning. During transition the sharp LE will cause more loss of airflow, or a shadow, over the surface. Which is a stall. And the elevator will be less sensitive. That Is what happens. Why it would be preferred among these pilots is questionable at this time. My theory would be that since this creates a exponential loss of sensitiveness on the elevator, It makes the airplane behavior more manageable. And finding that spot to ease off when ending a transition, like doing a hard 90* pull up and having to stop precisely at 90* makes it easier. This is what I said earlier.
I know What happens, I just want to know why it's preferred. From knowing what happens, this seems to make the most sense to me.

LOL
I asked about dihedral in CL because in aviation dihedral effects the roll stability. I thought everyone interested in planes knew this?
I believe that's a bit difference as well.
I'm interested in CL Stunt because I have a passion for airplanes. I'm not involved in Airplanes because I have a passion for Stunt.

I seriously question that you actually read the link about propeller theory. But there's nothing wrong about that. It's just that if you did, you'd realize that once again, Helical is not my interpretation. It's what is understood in that industry. Just like "shadow".
 
I believe the I'm having a problem understanding what some are saying here and the explanations are being lost in translation.
Probably better to sit down with a glass of ale and share ideas with some impartial individuals. Hopefully that day will come.
David Miller

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #103 on: March 03, 2019, 02:14:12 PM »
And then Howard stating that Efficiency and Stunt do not go together (I'm probably paraphrasing) makes me believe he doesn't understand the word efficiency. Because that doesn't make sense.

It may well have been me.  And having been a successful circuit & systems designer for the last 30 years, I certainly feel that I know what it means. 

So how do you define it?  I would say that a 64-ounce stunt plane that can fly the entire pattern on two ounces of fuel is way more "efficient" than one that can do the same thing on seven ounces of fuel.

But there are folks out there who fly .77 cubic inch engines that need seven ounces of fuel to slobber their way through the pattern, and who place in the top 5 at the Nationals, and who would be (and sometimes are) competitive at the Worlds.  On the other hand, if you put a 40 FP on a 64-ounce plane, prop it right, and lean it out, you can do the pattern with just two ounces of fuel.  Woo hoo!  2 1/2 times as efficient!  And your plane flys so crappy that if you're a freaking expert you may score in the low 500's. 

This is why nobody who wins chases that efficiency -- they just happily build fuel tanks that are as big as they need to be to fly their particular plane/engine combination.

But, clearly, I'm a dolt.  Could you please explain what "efficiency" really means, and why we need it in stunt?
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Offline IdRatherBeBuilding

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #104 on: March 03, 2019, 02:44:16 PM »
That is correct. That is efficiency. In terms of your fuel consumption over the distance traveled
These are ratios, comparing one aspect to another.
An efficient light bulb would be lumens vs. wattage use.
Thermal Dynamics. This pan is more efficient that that one. It takes less heat to cook an egg and therefore less time.
Everything has a basis of some kind of efficiency. From the food we consume, to the way our eyes see and send those images to our brain, to the way we mow our lawns, etc.
These are Ratios
They help use find the most efficient coefficient (applied mathematics formula) to reach a desired goal for a particular task.
Why looking for efficiency is the aerodynamics of control line stunt planes would be advisable, it seems self explanatory once you consider what efficiency means.
David Miller

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #105 on: March 03, 2019, 03:03:12 PM »
That is correct. That is efficiency. In terms of your fuel consumption over the distance traveled
These are ratios, comparing one aspect to another.
An efficient light bulb would be lumens vs. wattage use.
Thermal Dynamics. This pan is more efficient that that one. It takes less heat to cook an egg and therefore less time.
Everything has a basis of some kind of efficiency. From the food we consume, to the way our eyes see and send those images to our brain, to the way we mow our lawns, etc.
These are Ratios
They help use find the most efficient coefficient (applied mathematics formula) to reach a desired goal for a particular task.
Why looking for efficiency is the aerodynamics of control line stunt planes would be advisable, it seems self explanatory once you consider what efficiency means.

OK.  So, the reason that efficiency is not important in stunt is that chasing it makes you lose.  And I want to win.  So I say things like "efficiency and stunt don't go together".  I should think that the reason to avoid chasing something that, in and of itself makes you lose would be self-explanatory.

So, explain -- why should I expend energy getting a worse score?  It just isn't explaining itself to me.  Actually, it is explaining itself, but in just about the opposite direction that you're trying to pull me.  C'mon, man -- explain!  Two ounces of fuel consumption and a losing score -- how is that better than $1 more worth of fuel and a winning score?  Please clarify how purposely losing is "self explanatory"!
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #106 on: March 03, 2019, 03:18:26 PM »
To succeed in Stunt one has to be as inefficient as it gets-burn as much fuel as you possibly can.  Most else is small stuff.

Dave
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Offline IdRatherBeBuilding

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #107 on: March 03, 2019, 03:27:24 PM »
OK.  So, the reason that efficiency is not important in stunt is that chasing it makes you lose.  And I want to win.  So I say things like "efficiency and stunt don't go together".  I should think that the reason to avoid chasing something that, in and of itself makes you lose would be self-explanatory.

Ok. I understand now.
You believe efficiency Only relates to your fuel consumption. It does not.
Again, Everything is based on some sort of efficient ratio. And I mean everything as in Not just in Cl Stunt or airplanes for that matter.
So what you're saying is fuel efficiency in therms of distance (it could be a lot of other factors as well) is not important. Ok. But then that isn't what we're discussing here. We're discussing the stab and elevator. Not fuel consumption.
At least I wasn't
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #108 on: March 03, 2019, 04:29:33 PM »
We're discussing the stab and elevator. Not fuel consumption.
At least I wasn't

OK.  So.  The notion has been put forth that a sharp stab leading edge not only reduces the "efficiency" (presumably the L/D ratio), but increases how predictable the control is (presumably by making the position at which flow separates more consistent).  So a pointy LE stab is always a little bit stalled, and always a little bit "inefficient" in terms of L/D, and very possibly lift vs. angle of attack and lift vs. elevator deflection.  So in every conceivable way, it's inefficient.  But, the airplane does not jump all over the sky.

So, explain to me how an airplane that has the world's most efficient stab, but jumps all over the sky because of chaotic flow separation, is going to help me win vs. a stab that lifts less and drags more, but does so with absolute repeatability.
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #109 on: March 03, 2019, 04:55:30 PM »
OK.  So, the reason that efficiency is not important in stunt is that chasing it makes you lose.  And I want to win.  So I say things like "efficiency and stunt don't go together".  I should think that the reason to avoid chasing something that, in and of itself makes you lose would be self-explanatory.

Ok. I understand now.
You believe efficiency Only relates to your fuel consumption. It does not.
Again, Everything is based on some sort of efficient ratio. And I mean everything as in Not just in Cl Stunt or airplanes for that matter.
So what you're saying is fuel efficiency in therms of distance (it could be a lot of other factors as well) is not important. Ok. But then that isn't what we're discussing here. We're discussing the stab and elevator. Not fuel consumption.
At least I wasn't
In my case I really wasn't talking about fuel consumption.   I also know the discussion is largely theoretical anyway.  Most of todays competitive airplanes are more powerful, and have some reserve performance designed in so that the motivation or need to squeeze the last drop of aerodynamic efficiency out of each part doesn't gain much.  We do like to experiment though and sometimes certain things seem to work better or feel better at the control handle.  That is all the efficiency I'm looking for. 
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #110 on: March 03, 2019, 05:49:27 PM »

Also, I'm not sure you understand what the word "efficiency" means. As you said it's not what stunt pilots are after.
Efficient and Coefficient are to separate words. They are not a term. I later just rephrased my sentence to mean the same thing.


[/quote]

Let me give you an example.
Props.
I used the APC 13*4.5 electric  prop for several years. In a standard Impact, I could use a 5S2700 battery for full competition flights, with adequate reserve in the battery.
I then switched to a 3 blade 11" prop and instantly had to go to a 6S2700 battery for enough capacity to have adequate reserve. The plane flew better, but used more battery. The 3 blade is less efficient in converting battery power to performance.

So in this case, better performance is had with a less efficient prop. So, I think Howard has it right!


Offline phil c

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #111 on: March 03, 2019, 07:00:56 PM »
It may well have been me.  And having been a successful circuit & systems designer for the last 30 years, I certainly feel that I know what it means. 

So how do you define it?  I would say that a 64-ounce stunt plane that can fly the entire pattern on two ounces of fuel is way more "efficient" than one that can do the same thing on seven ounces of fuel.

But there are folks out there who fly .77 cubic inch engines that need seven ounces of fuel to slobber their way through the pattern, and who place in the top 5 at the Nationals, and who would be (and sometimes are) competitive at the Worlds.  On the other hand, if you put a 40 FP on a 64-ounce plane, prop it right, and lean it out, you can do the pattern with just two ounces of fuel.  Woo hoo!  2 1/2 times as efficient!  And your plane flys so crappy that if you're a freaking expert you may score in the low 500's. 

This is why nobody who wins chases that efficiency -- they just happily build fuel tanks that are as big as they need to be to fly their particular plane/engine combination.

But, clearly, I'm a dolt.  Could you please explain what "efficiency" really means, and why we need it in stunt?


To my thinking, in PA or stunt, efficiency is the number of flights you need to take first place.  That could be number of practice flights before a contest, number of flights from beginner to the first place trophy in expert, or advanced, or intermediate, or the number of flights it took to say "I think that was a pretty good pattern, first one ever".  Talking about fuel efficiency is stunt is like talking about beauty in a beer.  They just don't jibe.
phil Cartier

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #112 on: March 03, 2019, 08:18:07 PM »

To my thinking, in PA or stunt, efficiency is the number of flights you need to take first place.  That could be number of practice flights before a contest, number of flights from beginner to the first place trophy in expert, or advanced, or intermediate, or the number of flights it took to say "I think that was a pretty good pattern, first one ever".  Talking about fuel efficiency is stunt is like talking about beauty in a beer.  They just don't jibe.

OK.  I was with you right up until you implied that beer is not beautiful.

WHAT?!?!?!!!

Oh, the sacrilege.
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Offline Target

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2019, 08:25:45 PM »


I used to think that I was a smarter than average laymen aero guy, having flown RC Sailplanes for a number of years, with some success.
"Control line seems pretty simple", I thought.

WRONG!

R,
Target
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 05:46:22 AM by Target »
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #114 on: March 03, 2019, 09:42:45 PM »
David, I think you may have been aiming too low for this audience.  The guy who started this topic, for example, is a NASA aero with his own wind tunnel.  I think everybody here has known for decades that the airfoils that have the highest Clmax at our Reynolds numbers are thicker, have blunter LEs, and have the chordwise point of max thickness more forward than airfoils for most purposes.  I learned that myself from old NACA reports in 1962, verified it in practice, and started winning combat matches because of it.  Rather than vectoring us to a nontechnical Web site, you might have shown us data such as post #46 here: http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=371054&sub_topic_id=371056&mesg_id=&page=#371291 .  I started picking on you after I explained the stab issue and you went on to show me that Web site. 

The virtue of pointy stab LEs on stunters is pretty well established experimentally and theoretically.  Three guys who worked on this are Paul Walker, Dave Fitzgerald, and Igor Burger.  Paul, whose testimony you heard above, of whom Brett said, "... there is no one who is a more careful experimenter or more capable of evaluating the results", wrote the book on stunt plane trimming: http://flyinglines.org/pw.trimflow1.html .  David made and evaluated a series of stabilizers on one airplane and wrote the results up for Stunt News.  Igor did an analysis with JavaFoil to show how the laminar-turbulent transition causes the level-flight limit cycle: http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=133980&mesg_id=133980&listing_type=&page=6#133983 , post #17.  And those are just the world champions who researched it!  I regret that I don't know why the pointy stab works well at high lift.  I'd like to get lots of lift at even more negative angle of attack (positive lift with positive elevator deflection), but I haven't figured out a practical way to do it, let alone a way that would help my score.   

I presume that "efficiency coefficient" is nondimensionalized efficiency.  Maybe you divide efficiency by 2 pi.
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Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #115 on: March 03, 2019, 11:53:42 PM »
To succeed in Stunt one has to be as inefficient as it gets-burn as much fuel as you possibly can.  Most else is small stuff.

Dave

Why?

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #116 on: March 04, 2019, 06:43:07 AM »
Why?
Burning fuel (or ions) mean very many practice flights............fuel in the jug =idle airplane.

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Offline frank williams

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #117 on: March 04, 2019, 09:21:01 AM »
Rather than worry about “efficiency”, I think we need to fall back and look at the graph in my original post.  The measured and the CFD data show that the lift produced by the sharp leading edge configuration is very very linear between +/-  8-9 degrees of angle of attack.  I initially thought for sure that the razor sharp LE would not work at all.  I thought that it might have a positive effect on grooving or killing any hunting, but intuition said, like David I think believes, that it would be a disaster once I started to maneuver.  That’s not the case.

All along the problem with the tail end of a stunt ship has been getting a repeatable linear effect from the stab/elevator.  Sealing the hinge line helps greatly with repeatability.  The shape of the stab appeared to be very important also.  Many different sections have been tried through the years, some better than others.   The “pointy leading edge” is the latest attempt that has shown good results.  I was looking for published measured data that supported the empirical results, and it’s there.

Since flying one of these “razor tails” work and we don’t feel a stall of the tail, I think we can conclude that the tails don’t actually see a very high angle of attack like we might suspect.  Surely something less than +/- ten degrees.  This is a question that would be fun to look at, “what is the incidence of the flow at the tail during a tight square maneuver?”.  The dynamics of the flow at the tail in a tight turn is effected by several factors;  the downwash from wing and flaps, the induced up wash of the elevator, the length of the tail swinging through the arc of the turn, and the rate of the turn.  We need a simple simulation to look at this.

So. look again at the data and observe the very linear relation between the angle of attack and the lift for the reversed flow condition.  Don’t try to look at a big picture of a backwards flying airfoil at large angles of flow.

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #118 on: March 04, 2019, 10:24:11 AM »
What I find interesting is the linearity from the origin with the reversed airfoil. The "standard" direction is flat from the origin for about 2 degrees, then increases. This could be the reason I can feel a difference!

Thanks Frank!

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #119 on: March 04, 2019, 10:38:49 AM »
Frank thanks for the data.  It's comforting to think my new stabs shouldn't be hyper-critical to either incidence adjustments or minor control inputs.  On one of my take-apart airplanes with a rounded stab leading edge,  I noticed a pronounced habit of it to fly tail low in level flight but otherwise act perfectly normal and linear to the handle.  I fly next to a river levee and the visual height in level flight is exactly the same as the top of the levee so it stuck out like a sore thumb.   I started to shim under the stab leading edge and needed to lift it over 1/32" to get the tail up to level.  This didn't seem to change any other way the airplane flies.*  I felt the leading edge radius was being tolerant of these incidence changes.  From my free flight experience and especially hand launched gliders where we try to be as close to 0-0 incidence as possible it sometimes doesn't take much of an incidence adjustment or slight warp to get the airplane to "go negative" and start an outside loop mid-launch.  It's that sensitivity to changes that concerned me in trying this razor leading edge.  Now I'm more confident about it.

Dave

*  This is now why all my new airplanes have the stab incidence adjustable....
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #120 on: March 04, 2019, 10:58:37 AM »
We need a simple simulation to look at this.

Simple? 

Looks like that's a CFD analysis, although the caption mentions experimental data. It's interesting that it shows air density ratio.  It's close to one.  Is that what really happens in "incompressible" flow, or is this at some higher Mach number?

Of course the scale would have to be in density altitude for Dave Fitzgerald to make sense of it. 
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Offline frank williams

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #121 on: March 04, 2019, 11:54:12 AM »
The solid line and dashed line are the CFD results.
The circle and the triangle are the experimental results from tunnels.

The normal facing data shows a dead spot through zero.  However, once again, this particular study is for a lower Reynolds number than us and is more susceptible to these problems at zero alpha.  There are other studies that show similar results for the reversed flow that are at our speeds.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #122 on: March 04, 2019, 11:57:25 AM »
Just curious if it is at all possible that the various anomalous behaviors of the many planes being diagnosed in these 120 odd posts might be the result of separate and disparate construction/trim/alignment etc. issues in the other 99% of the airplane not being considered, i.e. the relative bluntness of the stab LE? 

Paul and David have won about 100 or so Nats and WCs with stabs varying from flat planks from Home Depot with a few strokes of sandpaper rounding the leading edge to subtle and not so subtle airfoils with and without pre-planned and/or after the fact incidence adjustments.  Paul, in particular, has done it both ways (leading edge entry) and advocated for each at different times (although,not to my memory, has he utilized the positive incidence approach...could be totally wrong in that regard).

I'd be interested in a discussion that included the once favored versus the newly favored and why the change in preference from an aerodynamic/performance perspective inasmuch as significant victories would point to either approach as--at least--a valid choice.

Ted

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #123 on: March 04, 2019, 01:29:33 PM »
My first two full body planes were a Nobler and Ares (from plans).  I have put a 1/16" diameter LE on everything I have designed ever since.  Didn't know any better.    Amazing what we rediscover every 50 years or so.

Ken

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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #124 on: March 04, 2019, 01:34:54 PM »
Some thickening of the plot.  I ran the normal-facing 0012 at different Reynolds numbers with Profili (XFOIL) and saw pretty much the same thing at low Reynolds numbers (see below).  Our stabs operate at about 300,000, where the lift curve slope is normal.  Then I looked at the Stuttgart wind tunnel data for the 0012.  It, too, shows the perversion at Reynolds numbers of 40,000 and 60,000, with a noticeable slope reversal at 40,000 and 60,000.  The lift curve slope is well-behaved at 150,000.  Here is what I did awhile back for the old Impact stab:  https://stunthanger.com/smf/engineering-board/impact-stab-analysis/msg294246/#msg294246 .  It needs more work, but the Reynolds number plot shows that it's well-behaved from 200,000 to 400,000.  I don't think this lift-curve-sign-reversal effect is what Paul saw with the blunt LE.  Rather, I think it's the transition wandering around as described by Igor and Frank. 
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #125 on: March 04, 2019, 01:43:03 PM »
Paul and David have won about 100 or so Nats and WCs with stabs varying from flat planks from Home Depot with a few strokes of sandpaper rounding the leading edge to subtle and not so subtle airfoils with and without pre-planned and/or after the fact incidence adjustments.  Paul, in particular, has done it both ways (leading edge entry) and advocated for each at different times (although,not to my memory, has he utilized the positive incidence approach...could be totally wrong in that regard).

I'd be interested in a discussion that included the once favored versus the newly favored and why the change in preference from an aerodynamic/performance perspective inasmuch as significant victories would point to either approach as--at least--a valid choice.

David's experiment, as I recall, showed that the flat, round-LE Impact stab worked OK.  The difference seems to be whether it's being pulled by a .40VF or a Plettenberg. 
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Offline Gordon Van Tighem

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #126 on: March 04, 2019, 02:08:01 PM »
Speaking of not being up-to-date, this guy hasn't heard the Michaelson-Morley news.
1887? Lots of time to get up to date....
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #127 on: March 04, 2019, 03:29:52 PM »
I am not an engineer so I have to wait for the punch line (Yes It's better/No it Sucks) when you guys go off into the weeds.  I understand most of it but I still have not been able to get a line on whether the LE simply performs better if it is thinner (sharp being the ultimate thin) OR is it the point that makes it better? 

The reason I am asking this is a post from Paul earlier where he recommended I leave it at 1/16 dia rounded since I stated that it flew well.  I may have been misleading when I said that.  I "fly" my electric's as soon as there is enough dope on the wings to keep the covering on just to make sure I don't have a serious issue that can be fixed before the finish is applied.  My criteria for these "flights" are simple: a strenuous pull test, doesn't hit the prop taking off,wings level enough, fuselage level, controls don't bind, will do a 10' corner both ways, an overhead 8 and stays on the ground when it lands.  A one and a two minute flight and it is back to the shop.

When I said it flew fine it was using those very simple criteria.  When it is finished, flaps and elevator sealed then it will get "trimmed".  It would be super simple at this point (I am not into gray yet) to stick a strip of basswood on the LE and make it pointed IF pointed is the goal, not just thinner.

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #128 on: March 04, 2019, 03:56:18 PM »
Paul, could pleas you post a picture of your stabs entire cross section?  Thanks.

Bruce

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #129 on: March 04, 2019, 04:08:13 PM »
2nd page .... reply #77

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #130 on: March 04, 2019, 04:15:05 PM »
It is interesting that Paul, Igor, David F., Brett, ect, have taken different paths to arrive at the same basic conclusion that moderately sharp to very sharp leading edges on the stab are advantageous for them.  All have different preferences for the overall stab design, ie, flat(pw),curved(df/bb), airfoiled(Igor).
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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #131 on: March 04, 2019, 04:21:45 PM »
I've been experimenting with adding some fixtures to the leading edge of a flat stab.  I used 1 inch alluminum blind slats taped together along one edge and taped to the normal flat stab.  It gives a pointy leading edge.  See photo.

The results are not awful.  It flew, was able to loop, didn't fall out of the sky, made impressive corners and generally felt like a quicker response.  I still need to verify that I didn't fool myself with just increased tail area and a bit more tail weight.  I haven't completed that yet, but initially, I'm impressed.

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #132 on: March 04, 2019, 07:46:13 PM »
2nd page .... reply #77

Thanks Frank, I saw that but it is only the leading edge.  I was curious as to the cross section if the entire stab and elevator combination.

Bruce

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #133 on: March 04, 2019, 08:30:40 PM »
I must mention that all of this theory versus reality talk reminds me of when the eight year old boy asked his Dad ;'What's the difference between theory and reality?".

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #134 on: March 04, 2019, 09:52:08 PM »
Thanks Frank, I saw that but it is only the leading edge.  I was curious as to the cross section if the entire stab and elevator combination.

Bruce

It is flat to the rounded hinge line.

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #135 on: March 04, 2019, 10:29:50 PM »
I must mention that all of this theory versus reality talk reminds me of when the eight year old boy asked his Dad ;'What's the difference between theory and reality?".

In theory, there is none.  In reality, things are a bit different.
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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #136 on: March 05, 2019, 07:49:16 AM »
I have been away for a few days and a complete 3rd page shows up. Great stuff!  Pretty far above my pay grade but I get through it as best I can.  The triangle and circle graph really show the difference!  Thank you Frank for showing us this stuff and thank you to others for explaining things as you always do.

I liked Ted's post alluding to the fact there are several ways to skin the stunt cat.  ;D 

Now let's dive into the next section of this discussion.......  How does one build this sharp leading edge and keep it perfectly straight all the way across.  I can assume its not just a sanding block....  ahem,,,Paul,,,you got any pics of how you construct the LE on the stab and the stab in general?  Do you do anything to it to make resistant to dings or dents.  Seems even the slightest bump and you have a dented LE that could negatively effect flight performance.

I know once I went to a molded LE on the stab, even though it was blunt, my flying consistency skyrocketed.  Any building details would be greatly appreciated.  Or if they are already out there just point me in that direction.

Thank you
Doug
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #137 on: March 05, 2019, 08:57:53 AM »
... Do you do anything to it to make resistant to dings or dents.  ...

https://www.mcmaster.com/tool-steel

Weight may be an issue, though.
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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #138 on: March 05, 2019, 09:48:09 AM »
Doug,

The LE is a laminate construction.

The stab has a 3/8" "core"  if 1/16" ribs, with 1/16" sheeting top and bottom. The TE is a laminate construction with a 1/32" core for hinge slots, a layer on each side of the core to make tge stack up 3/8", and then the1/16"to get it to 1/2".

The LE is similar. The core is a single layer of unidirectional tape, balsa on each side to get it to the 3/8" and then the 1/16" sheeting.  Once the entire stab is assembled, a planer is used to start shaping the LE.  Then a sanding block to finish it off. The carbon strip acts as a guide for the shaping and sanding. It is sanded sharp at the front. Once happy, the LE is soaked with thin CA, and then sanded smooth. Two applications of CA are applied.

At this point it is ready for paint. With this sharp LE, one has to be very careful sanding the paint so that the paint is not removed.
Sanding once the clear is on is nerve racking. Real easy to cut through.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #139 on: March 05, 2019, 09:58:10 AM »
I have been away for a few days and a complete 3rd page shows up. Great stuff!  Pretty far above my pay grade but I get through it as best I can.  The triangle and circle graph really show the difference!  Thank you Frank for showing us this stuff and thank you to others for explaining things as you always do.

I liked Ted's post alluding to the fact there are several ways to skin the stunt cat.  ;D 

Now let's dive into the next section of this discussion.......  How does one build this sharp leading edge and keep it perfectly straight all the way across.  I can assume its not just a sanding block....  ahem,,,Paul,,,you got any pics of how you construct the LE on the stab and the stab in general?  Do you do anything to it to make resistant to dings or dents.  Seems even the slightest bump and you have a dented LE that could negatively effect flight performance.

I know once I went to a molded LE on the stab, even though it was blunt, my flying consistency skyrocketed.  Any building details would be greatly appreciated.  Or if they are already out there just point me in that direction.

Thank you
Doug
Doug:

There may very well be a better way but I had a few thin (1/32" x 1/8") carbon fiber strips we used as spar stiffeners for zoom launches on sailplanes so I decided to see what they would do for keeping flap T/E's from warping if added to them vertically.   It worked.  I am leaning towards putting "sharpies" on my new ship and I am going to use one of these strips sideways sandwiched between two pieces of 1/16 balsa to form the new LE.  That thin black centerpiece will make a perfect sanding line so it will be perfectly straight and ding resistant.  I have had enough of the "why" to be convinced - on to the "How"! #^

Well it seems that Paul has beat me to it.  Guess maybe he flew sailplanes too!

Ken
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Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #140 on: March 05, 2019, 10:04:23 AM »
My choise would be a carbon microtube glued in a groove in center of stab. Or even a solid rod, they are nott so heavy. What kind of r are you looking for? L

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #141 on: March 05, 2019, 10:31:59 AM »
My choise would be a carbon microtube glued in a groove in center of stab. Or even a solid rod, they are nott so heavy. What kind of r are you looking for? L

I think you could shave with it before paint!

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #142 on: March 05, 2019, 10:32:45 AM »
My choise would be a carbon microtube glued in a groove in center of stab. Or even a solid rod, they are nott so heavy. What kind of r are you looking for? L
I may be wrong here and since I am probably going to try this I hope it gets clarified.  I don't think that there is an "r".  I think that the point is that there is a point. ???  You are right about the CF tubing and I would totally use it for any place you need a smooth radius. 

Ken

I think it just did - thanks Paul.
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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #143 on: March 05, 2019, 11:17:03 AM »
I think you could shave with it before paint!

Oh, *That* sharp! What do you use Paul?

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #144 on: March 05, 2019, 11:19:50 AM »
This is making sense.  I have used a small carbon blade spar on its side laminated top and bottom in the TE of my elevators for several models now.  Helps keep them straight and they are much stronger in the end. This is very similar to how Paul is doing the LE.  I will have to try this out. Sounds like I will have to build a new model around a new stab!   ;D
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 01:11:24 PM by Doug Moon »
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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #145 on: March 05, 2019, 12:16:31 PM »
This making sense.  I have used a small carbon blade spar on its side laminated top and bottom in the TE of my elevators for several models now.  Helps keep the straight and they are mush stronger in the end. This is very similar to how Paul is doing the LE.  I will have to try this out. Sounds like I will have to build a new model around a new stab!   ;D
You do realize that this will require actually Flying the plane... LL~ LL~ LL~
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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #146 on: March 05, 2019, 01:12:02 PM »
You do realize that this will require actually Flying the plane... LL~ LL~ LL~

Yes I know this, don't worry many flights for me are coming.
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #147 on: March 05, 2019, 01:38:00 PM »
Oh, *That* sharp! What do you use Paul?

It is an inlaid single layer carbon strip.

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #148 on: March 05, 2019, 01:39:41 PM »
Yes I know this, don't worry many flights for me are coming.

I thought you were one of these guys who don't need to fly much!!!

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Re: Walker's Stab Leading Edge
« Reply #149 on: March 05, 2019, 02:00:36 PM »
I thought you were one of these guys who don't need to fly much!!!

Sometimes it is that way and other times not so much....  As of late, last several years, if I wanted to get a lot of flights it wasn't happening with life getting in the way.  Last year I burned some fuel towards the end of the season and it felt really good and my last contest flight was one of my better ones in a really long time.  I do really well with 4 sessions a week at 4-6 flights per.  Some call that a lot and others not so much.  I haven't been able to get that much in the past 6-8 years.  Our weather has sucked for a long time now....  Before 2012 nats I think I had 28 flights on the new plane, then another 30 or so at Muncie. In 2014 I had 5 patterns on the new plane before Muncie then another 30 or so there.  But thanks t0 100s and 100s and 100s of flights in years past when things were more agreeable the pattern was ingrained pretty good...

But....I ALWAYS want to go flying and still check the trees for wind direction almost every day! hahahaha
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