VP Powermaster 10% Nitro ; 18% Oil Mean & Green

[Kafin Noe’man]

I had ordered a gallon of VP Powermaster 10% Nitro 18% Oil (Air — which is a castor/synthetic blend 20:80), but unfortunately they didn’t have that anymore and just sent me the Mean & Green one which I believe this is a full synthetic.

I’m going to use the fuel for my LA-46.

So the question is, can I use that Mean & Green fuel as is?

I’ve also been thinking to add some more pure castor oil (I can find Merlin Castor Oil MA-220) in order to increase the % of oil to 22%. If my math is correct, I need to add 194 ml (6.5 oz) of oil and doing this will make a 22:78 castor/synth blend.

What do you guys think about it? Should I return it or just proceed with adding more castor oil?

[Dave_Trible]

If it were me I'd sure add the castor oil. 

Dave

[Colin McRae]

Kafin, your math seems correct on a gallon basis.

The OS 46LA owner's manual recommends 20% oil but also says do not go lower than 18%. And the manual says full syn can be used but is less tolerant of lean operation.

I would add the castor. And be sure no not set the needle too lean on the ground.

The following is on a quart basis (multiply by 4 for gallon basis). To add castor to the mean and green fuel:

For 20% total oil, the mix would be 31.2oz of fuel / 0.8 oz of castor (resulting in 12% castor in the fuel blend)

For 22% total oil, the mix would be 30.4oz of fuel / 1.6 oz of castor (resulting in 23% castor in the fuel blend)

I would use the 22% oil blend. I have run LA's at 23% oil in the past (Brodak fuels) with no issues. I currently run my LA's at 20% total oil (32% castor/68% syn).

[Chris McMillin]

I used to run castor but in the LA 46 I found better runs from no castor. I used Powermaster 15nitro , 18oil , and found the needle much steadier than custom blends with castor. I changed over time coming to this conclusion, and compared flights on the same day after consulting experienced guys like John Hill and Joe Gilbert.
Chris…

[Kafin Noe’man]

I used to run castor but in the LA 46 I found better runs from no castor. I used Powermaster 15nitro , 18oil , and found the needle much steadier than custom blends with castor. I changed over time coming to this conclusion, and compared flights on the same day after consulting experienced guys like John Hill and Joe Gilbert.
Chris…

Hi Chris,
Is your fuel the ‘Mean & Green’ version as well?

[Chris McMillin]

Hi Kafin,
I reread your post, I was under the impression the VP Powermaster Air had no castor. Or very little. I use it currently because I have a couple of cases. I see you have written that the formula is 20% castor,80% synthetic.
Joe Gilbert uses Mean Green and I used some of his at VSC and it worked very well in the LA. He was using it in his AeroTiger .36.
Thanks for reminding me/clarifying this difference.
Chris…

[Dan McEntee]

    If you want to add castor, break it down into a quart to test, and add what it would take to treat a quart., which I think is about 1 3/5 ounces?? You may find that the castor does not blend with the synthetic. If it does not, then you have only wasted a quart, instead of the whole gallon. Using it straight is worth the test flights also. It may take 3 or 4 flights for things to settle in and for you to find the best setting. I would test fly it straight from the can first. If you like it and all seems well, then just keep flying. If you have problems, then treat a quart with castor and keep test flying.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Colin McRae]

Hi Kafin,
I reread your post, I was under the impression the VP Powermaster Air had no castor. Or very little. I use it currently because I have a couple of cases. I see you have written that the formula is 20% castor,80% synthetic.
Joe Gilbert uses Mean Green and I used some of his at VSC and it worked very well in the LA. He was using it in his AeroTiger .36.
Thanks for reminding me/clarifying this difference.
Chris…

VP Air fuel is 18% total oil (20% castor/80% syn)

VP mean green is 18% total oil (100% syn)

If the fuel is mainly syn oil, just don't run too lean.

OS actually recommends 20% oil for the LA engines, but OS says do not run less than 18%. I add a little castor to VP Air to increase the oil to 20%. Engines run great.

[Joe Gilbert]

 I have been full synthetic oil for years in the LA 46 and B 40 for years and my engines seem to run very well. I have used half castor and synthetic years ago and had the engines get castor gum in them and I crock potted them went to full synthetic never looked back.

[Kafin Noe’man]

So, I've decided that I will keep the VP Mean & Green and add some more pure castor oil to get to 20% of total oil (resulting in 12% castor in the fuel blend).
I think it will still be nice to have a little amount of castor in the mix.

And I remember that you mention about this,

Just like the OS owner's manual says, I find peak rpm on the ground (i.e.: if I go any leaner the speed starts to fall off). Then, just as the owner's manual says, I open (richen) maybe 30 deg or so just when I notice the rpm to just start to decrease a little. OS calls this the 'optimum' engine speed. Then I fly the model.

If the fuel is mainly syn oil, just don't run too lean.

If the manual says open (richen) by 30 deg or so from the peak RPM (in assumption the fuel is mainly castor just like the manual recommends), so should I open the needle more than 30 deg or so since my fuel would be mainly synthetic oil?

What do you think about this?

[Dave_Trible]

To me,  the 30 degrees open doesn't mean anything.  That would be based upon certain things.  For example I have two different synthetic oils.  When I use one of them I have to have the needle open a LOT more than the other one to achieve the same rpm.  I have assumed that means that oil is thicker than the other so the needle needs to allow a larger quantity to flow through.  You could only judge the setting by tachometer or by ear.  From the way your instructions read (which sound like RC methods)  you set the engine for max output then back off so it doesn't go overlean in the air.  I'd back off until a noticeable drop in rpm happens then go fly it.  You can adjust it differently the next flight if needed.  I hate to run engines that hard myself so would opt to set it considerably more rich.

Dave

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Kafin,

Summary:  Some castor is good, but not much.

I've had experiences similar to Joe Gilbert regarding the effect of castor on an LA 46.  I may have been using a lot of castor, but the result was an engine that had so much castor residue adhered to the cylinder that the engine squeaked when you flipped it. Still ran OK. The antifreeze crock pot cured the squeak and cleaned it up.

Since having that experience, I've been going for 20% oil content, with 4% of that being castor for potential lean run protection.

Still an LA 46 fan.  Quite reliable and easy starting.  Had one season where it started first flip every single time.

Peter

[Colin McRae]

And I remember that you mention about this,
If the manual says open (richen) by 30 deg or so from the peak RPM (in assumption the fuel is mainly castor just like the manual recommends), so should I open the needle more than 30 deg or so since my fuel would be mainly synthetic oil?

The 30 deg or so open from peak is just a starting point. The main thing is to richen click by click from peak until you hear the rpm drop a bit. It is all about not going too lean in maneuvers.

Once the needle is set on the ground, it is not uncommon for the engine rpm to increase a little after launch. Then do a few simple stunts, if you notice the engine going too lean in maneuvers, richen a click or 2 more on the next flight until you have the model/engine combination running well. Then document the ground rpm you ended up with for future reference.

[Dan McEntee]

And I remember that you mention about this,
If the manual says open (richen) by 30 deg or so from the peak RPM (in assumption the fuel is mainly castor just like the manual recommends), so should I open the needle more than 30 deg or so since my fuel would be mainly synthetic oil?

The 30 deg or so open from peak is just a starting point. The main thing is to richen click by click from peak until you hear the rpm drop a bit. It is all about not going too lean in maneuvers.

Once the needle is set on the ground, it is not uncommon for the engine rpm to increase a little after launch. Then do a few simple stunts, if you notice the engine going a bit lean in maneuvers, richen a click or 2 more on the next flight until you have the model/engine combination running well. Then document the ground rpm you ended up with for future reference.

   All the instructions you read with the OS engines are just a basic guide line to get a person started, and they are not using the same props we tend to use in stunt and that affects how the engine responds to a needle setting. If everything is right and tight in you fuel system, when you launch the airplane the engine unloads for a few seconds after you let it go and it will speed up. By the time you come back around to the launch point you have built up some centrifugal force, which increases the fuel head pressure and will richen the run a bit. A lot of what takes place in this sequence relies on the fuel mix, prop, model weight drag but is generally the same. I use a tach to monitor the ground RPM before launch and check it every flight. I let the engine warm up for at least 20 seconds or so to get to operating temp before making any changes.  Measure your fuel as you put it in if you can, time every engine run for duration on a specific amount of fuel so you can look for consistency and check your lap times for the same reason. I can get Morgan Fuels Omega brand here and keep some of that on hand unadulterated and use that for so me engines. It's 1 50/50 syn/castor blend that is in the 17% total oil range. Modern OS FP and LA engines seem to run on it fine and if the weather gets cold it's what I use. Normally I have been running SIG Champion 10% with 50/50 Klotz/castor for many many years with very satisfactory results  but since that isn't available any longer and I have been mixing my own to the same blend for general use purposes. I run that in ringed engines and in my vintage engines also once they have been broken in and have some time on them. If you are really restricted by what fuel you can purchase you may want to look into the availability of the components to mix your own fuel. Start off with the blend that has worked best for you. Mix it in small amounts at first so you don't make mistakes and waste anything. Finding a local vendor that carried the VP 50/50 mix has really helped me and relieved that bit of stress when it comes to flying. I don't have to worry about finding and having nitro on hand separately or running out of nitro ahead of the other ingredients. A good grade of methanol is available at the same vendor and Klotz and castor from the internet. It sure is easier to just go buy it by the jug or can, but you gotta do what you gotta do !! And just to add, if you are changing types and brands of fuel in experimenting, fly several flights to determine how things are working. I believe it takes a few flights to get things adjusted and set before your engine runs consistently.

    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Dan is the scientist here, measuring RPM, measuring fuel load and recording run times.  Good on ya, Dan.

Myself, I always fly the pattern, followed by outside triangles, then count laps instead of recording a run time.  I leave the needle where it is unless a previous flight suggested an adjustment, rarely using a tach.  My goal is 8 laps before landing, and I adjust the fuel load to get there.  Too little fuel can cause some inconsistency in the clover, as the partial load of fuel moves around a lot at that time. Again, Dan's approach is more advanced and complex, requiring a timer, tach, time and task focus.

Peter

[Dan McEntee]

Dan is the scientist here, measuring RPM, measuring fuel load and recording run times.  Good on ya, Dan.

Myself, I always fly the pattern, followed by outside triangles, then count laps instead of recording a run time.  I leave the needle where it is unless a previous flight suggested an adjustment, rarely using a tach.  My goal is 8 laps before landing, and I adjust the fuel load to get there.  Too little fuel can cause some inconsistency in the clover, as the partial load of fuel moves around a lot at that time. Again, Dan's approach is more advanced and complex, requiring a timer, tach, time and task focus.

Peter

    This is just what I have learned to do over the years from watching other pilots who had exhibited much more skill and success than me as I was coming along!! I try to do my set up and start up routine the same way each time. I used to do a lot of contest flying here in the Midwest when there were a lot of contests!! I learned that you wanted to be as purposeful and professional as you could when called to fly. Be READY!! Know your airplane. Get a quick start and get in the air. That impressed some judges. You don't need to know which ones, just do it all the time and you'll have it covered. There are two places to participate in this hobby. The work shop and the flying field. Work is done in the work shop. Flying is done at the flying field!! Know the difference between the two !! The Flying field is not the place to do major work. Also, when called to fly, not the time to remember to tighten the prop, or decide to replace a plug.. Take care of your stuff and it will take care of you!! Again, I just developed my habits from watching the good guys and what they did when I started!!
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

I had ordered a gallon of VP Powermaster 10% Nitro 18% Oil (Air — which is a castor/synthetic blend 20:80), but unfortunately they didn’t have that anymore and just sent me the Mean & Green one which I believe this is a full synthetic.

I’m going to use the fuel for my LA-46.

So the question is, can I use that Mean & Green fuel as is?

I’ve also been thinking to add some more pure castor oil (I can find Merlin Castor Oil MA-220) in order to increase the % of oil to 22%. If my math is correct, I need to add 194 ml (6.5 oz) of oil and doing this will make a 22:78 castor/synth blend.

What do you guys think about it? Should I return it or just proceed with adding more castor oil?

    The oil content is sufficient if you are sure you can almost always hit the needle setting. As Joe mentions, you can usually run straight synthetic, again, you better be sure you don't miss the needle and have an otherwise reliable system. I would be slightly more concerned about an LA than the more typical AAC, which are pretty much bulletproof.

    What I am more concerned with is some reports I have heard about "Mean and Green" specifically. I have been told by people whose judgement I trust that they have had a lot of problems with PowerMaster Mean and Green, specifically, something green getting deposited on the piston and causing the engine to tighten up over a few flights.

 In one case, to the point the engine couldn't be started after about 4 flights, and the modeler having to *sand the piston* with 600 grit sandpaper to get it loose enough to start!!  I would categorize that as disastrous, you cannot accept that as a sport flier/beginner, and while this individual was certainly qualified to work on engines, under no circumstances should anyone reading this actually do this.

   So, the problem I see is not the quantities of anything or not enough or the wrong kind of oil, just that whatever is in Mean and Green may  very well cause a problem.

    Brett

p.s. I would recommend Powermaster "Air" or Powermaster "Heli". I use "Air" all the time and while I sometimes add oil, that is to adjust the run quality slightly based on conditions, not about reducing or caring about wear because the base fuel is plenty good enough. David uses "Heli" with has the same or very close proportions, but I think is straight synthetic using low-vis synthetic oil, and maybe some Randy "Aero-1" additive.

p.p.s to the original question, if you are worried about the oil quantity, I would certainly suggest adding synthetic instead of castor. If I want to add, I use Klotz KL-198 which is a low-viscosity synthetic.

[Kafin Noe’man]

I have been full synthetic oil for years in the LA 46 and B 40 for years and my engines seem to run very well. I have used half castor and synthetic years ago and had the engines get castor gum in them and I crock potted them went to full synthetic never looked back.

Hi Joe,

What brand of fuel do you usually use?
Is that VP PowerMaster Mean & Green?

[Colin McRae]

Kafin
One other thing you might look into

I had mentioned earlier that I thought you might have an aftermarket venturi on your 46LA. But then you mentioned you got your 46LA from Bob Brooks. Since you got your engine from Bob, I’m confident you have an engine in great condition and it probably has an OS venturi.

I have purchased several engines from Bob. All have been in excellent condition as advertised.

The stock venturi for a 46LA-s is I believe 7.5 mm. But your engine might have come with a smaller 6.5 mm venturi.

If you don’t know you can try to measure the throat ID, or ask Bob what he sold you. Just so you know for your records.

[Kafin Noe’man]

I'm gonna give you a little update on this.

So, I finally sold the fuel to fellow R/C flyer because my flying buddy has a gallon of VP Powermaster 15% Nitro ; 18% Air.
At first, I tried the 15% straight and it was just TOO MUCH 

We ended it up diluted that 15% nitro to around 3%-5% by adding more methanol and added some more castor to get into 20% total oil.
We were happy with the result, so I think I'm gonna keep this setup.

Luckily my flying buddy was willing to sell that fuel since he likes to fly with his own FAI mix fuel.


Best,
Kafin

[Kafin Noe’man]

The other commercial fuel I could find here is Byron Aero Gen2 with 5% Nitro 16% Total Oil syn/castor blend.
I might need to add some more oil to get the total oil to 20% but that will bring down the nitro % into 4.75% -- I think it's still good percentage, isn't it?

[Dave_Trible]

The other commercial fuel I could find here is Byron Aero Gen2 with 5% Nitro 16% Total Oil syn/castor blend.
I might need to add some more oil to get the total oil to 20% but that will bring down the nitro % into 4.75% -- I think it's still good percentage, isn't it?

I doubt you could tell much difference.  Byron is no longer made but is excellent fuel.  I used it exclusively for quite a few years.  My suggestion is to buy up any and all you can find.   Yes get the oil level up to at least 20%.   I used to buy it as 20 or 18,  then boosted the oil up to about 23%.  20% may be all you need.  Byron getting out of the model fuel business is why I started mixing my own.

Dave

[Brian Hampton]

I might need to add some more oil to get the total oil to 20% but that will bring down the nitro % into 4.75%

For whatever reason, this is a common misconception. The fuel the engines run on is just the methanol/nitro REGARDLESS of how much oil is in the mix. The misconception begins with the fact that all mixed fuels use proportions like x% methanol, y% nitro and z% oil. However the FUEL proportion is simply the x and y%, oil is simply to keep the engine running. In the simplest case, think of a fuel (FAI if you wish) that's 80% methanol and 20% oil. The engine runs only on that apparently 80% methanol. Add some more oil to bring the total oil content to 25% oil and the engine still runs only on the methanol, although you have to open the needle valve a little to compensate for the added oil, leaving the flow rate of the methanol into the engine the same as it was before oil was added. To sum up, if you have a fuel containing nitro, then adding oil doesn't change the methanol/nitro ratios at all, which is the actual fuel the engine runs on regardless of oil content.

[Reptoid]

For whatever reason, this is a common misconception. The fuel the engines run on is just the methanol/nitro REGARDLESS of how much oil is in the mix. The misconception begins with the fact that all mixed fuels use proportions like x% methanol, y% nitro and z% oil. However the FUEL proportion is simply the x and y%, oil is simply to keep the engine running. In the simplest case, think of a fuel (FAI if you wish) that's 80% methanol and 20% oil. The engine runs only on that apparently 80% methanol. Add some more oil to bring the total oil content to 25% oil and the engine still runs only on the methanol, although you have to open the needle valve a little to compensate for the added oil, leaving the flow rate of the methanol into the engine the same as it was before oil was added. To sum up, if you have a fuel containing nitro, then adding oil doesn't change the methanol/nitro ratios at all, which is the actual fuel the engine runs on regardless of oil content.

That is incorrect.
     It is not a "misconception". The engine see's the total fuel volume that must pass through the engine whether that ingredient adds to the combustion process or not.. When you add to the oil percentage the engine will see more oil and less of all other ingredients
      Percentages quoted for fuel are % of volume; if you change the percentage of any ingredient, it changes the percent of volume of all the ingredients. It will effect the power level because 100% of the "Fuel ingredients" run through the engine. If you add oil, it reduces the amount of Methanol AND Nitro for the same quantity or volume of fuel. Since that total volume mix is what the engine actually sees in the combustion chamber it will make less power because the power making ingredients are a smaller part of the fuel than they were with less oil. The common mistake most people make is adding oil to a gallon of fuel and then still dividing by 128 oz's to find the percentage. if you add 6 oz. of oil to a gallon of 18% oil (23oz)10% Nitro fuel (12.8oz) + (92.2oz Meth) you would then have; (23 +6 =) 29oz oil, 12.8oz Nitro, and 92.2 oz Methanol and a total volume of 134oz so 29/134=21.64% oil, 12.8/134=9.55% Nitro, 92.2/134=68.81% Methanol