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Author Topic: PAMPA Plans  (Read 2631 times)

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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PAMPA Plans
« on: February 05, 2021, 05:16:55 PM »
Can someone steer me to a list of plans PAMPA sells, or am I assuming something that ain't happening?  Thanks!

Dennis
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2021, 06:18:35 PM »
Dennis we haven't advertised selling plans for some time.  The increased cost of both printing and mailing as well as (honestly) finding the time to run all the errands  and footwork to the print shop and post office for working people was too much and no profit.   If there is a plan or two you are particularly interested in let me know.

Dave
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Offline PerttiMe

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2021, 11:10:32 PM »
Would at least some of the plans be at https://www.modelaircraft.org/ama-plan-service ?
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2021, 05:13:15 AM »
Not to my knowledge.  Most of those have been published in commercial model mags.  The ones in the PAMPA file were not-done mostly after the mags quit buying CL plans from designers.

Dave
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Offline Don Jenkins

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2021, 05:43:21 AM »
Can someone steer me to a list of plans PAMPA sells, or am I assuming something that ain't happening?  Thanks!

Dennis

Randy Smith (Precision Aero) has quite a few sets of plans.

Don

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2021, 09:45:23 AM »
Not quite sure how this works, but....

If PAMPA has rights to plans that are not available elsewhere, and is not selling them, perhaps something can be done to ensure those plans are preserved in the future.
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2021, 10:20:54 AM »
Not quite sure how this works, but....

If PAMPA has rights to plans that are not available elsewhere, and is not selling them, perhaps something can be done to ensure those plans are preserved in the future.
There is no stock of paper plans.  They are all digitized and on a memory stick.  Not going anywhere.

Dave
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2021, 11:51:55 AM »
  What is needed for the plans service is a digital custodian that can store the plans, take any orders, print the orders and ship. The thing that comes to my mind is maybe it's time to partner with someone like the AMA, who already has a plan service, printing equipment and shipping facilities. Since they don't have to do any cataloging or digitizing it would be worth it to them just to get a piece of the action and the rest goes to PAMPA. It would get the plans in front of more eyes also who are not PPAMPA members but would be AMA members and potential PAMPA members. Some one at PAMPA can be a custodian of the digital files also. Or instead of mailing out the hard copies, send the file to a specific location to be printed. Eliminate any on hand stock of printed plans and print to order somehow.  Just thinking out loud.
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Online Brent Williams

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2021, 12:15:07 PM »
Or.... just post the pdf's of the plans online already and let people have at 'em, free.  Headache and printing/shipping hassle solved.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 01:02:58 PM by Brent Williams »
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2021, 12:20:15 PM »
   The thing that comes to my mind is maybe it's time to partner with someone like the AMA, who already has a plan service, printing equipment and shipping facilities. Since they don't have to do any cataloging or digitizing it would be worth it to them just to get a piece of the action and the rest goes to PAMPA.

 That would all be assuming that AMA gave one bit of crap about Control Line, which they don't. Plus, they'd surely find a way to screw it up. As far as "a piece of the action" goes, they likely make more money securing one or two quad/drone ads for their rag than they would in a years worth of C/L plan sales, and it takes virtually no effort on their part.

 I understand Dave's side too, I think people sometimes forget the PAMPA guys are volunteers. Like he explained, from start to finish it's a lot of work to get even a single set of plans printed and shipped. Possibly though, if they had a reliable volunteer, it could all be handled and sent to the customer digitally? Thing is, volunteers, escpecially reliable ones, are very hard to come by. If any pursuit is considered though, I'd lean more that direction than having anything to do with the AMA.  D>K
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2021, 12:43:46 PM »
I think getting the pdf of a plan that I could take to STAPLES would do me.   They so far, at least the one I go to will take the pdf and make hard copies.  If they are busy they will E-Mail me they are ready. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2021, 12:59:38 PM »
This IS interesting.  There have already been more comments on this thread than I’ve received requests for plans in the last year and a half.  The last planset I actually printed and mailed LOST money for PAMPA at the last posted prices.  These would have to be sold for something over $25 these days to break even,  not counting the 1 1/2 hours of my day off.  Someone has expressed some interest in doing it so we’ll see.  Are you willing to pay $25-30 for a rolled set of plans?  Just askin’

Dave
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Offline Dave Royer

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2021, 03:04:05 PM »
If the plans exist in pdf format why not just email the member requested plan as an attachment? Seems to me that would be a very valuable service if possible to provide.

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2021, 03:28:09 PM »
If the plans exist in pdf format why not just email the member requested plan as an attachment? Seems to me that would be a very valuable service if possible to provide.
Actually I have.... but don’t tell anybody.

Dave
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2021, 03:28:38 PM »
This IS interesting.  There have already been more comments on this thread than I’ve received requests for plans in the last year and a half.  The last planset I actually printed and mailed LOST money for PAMPA at the last posted prices.  These would have to be sold for something over $25 these days to break even,  not counting the 1 1/2 hours of my day off.  Someone has expressed some interest in doing it so we’ll see.  Are you willing to pay $25-30 for a rolled set of plans?  Just askin’

Dave

    Well, speaking for myself, I HATE rolled plans! They are a pain in the butt, take up a lot of room and the creases in folded plans are much easier to deal with in my opinion. I have my plans collection stored flat in flat file cabinets anyway. Getting a typical single sheet plan printed at a Kinkos/Fed-Ex is in the 8 to 10 dollar range I think depending on size. Then the buyer can mutilate it any way he wants!! It takes the USPS right out of the picture also and those costs and headaches. If you have had the same experiences recently as I have with the USPS, you know what I mean!  I know I am not seeing all the problems and/or benefits, I just think we can take advantage of technology, get the existing plan catalog in front of more eyes, and stream line the process some how in todays point and click world I wouldn't even mind if the buyer was a PAMPA member or not as long as his PayPal payment was good! And maybe we pick up an new member in the process??  What gave me the idea was a guy in a Yahoo Group I used to belong to set up an account with some service on line for logo merchandise like mugs, t-shirts and such. The buyer went to the proper website and put in his order and the items were made to order and shipped. The Group didn't make any money but no one had to do any work either.  There has to be a way that PAMPA can benefit from this in some way and since the designs were donated to the organization, no royalties are paid to anyone, no printing costs, no mailing costs. A person sees a plan he wants. Points and clicks, pay X amount of dollars to PAMPA for the file, it's emailed to him and he's on his way. You could start out just limiting it to members and fine tune it from there. Maybe that could be a part of the PAMPA site?? 
    Lets brain bash this some more, and maybe some of the other more computer savvy and internet savvy people will have some input.
    Type at you later,
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2021, 09:08:44 PM »
I know I paid for pdf files from Don Hutcheson on a couple of his designs and also the same with the late Tom Nieber.    D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline PerttiMe

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2021, 11:43:27 PM »
... The last planset I actually printed and mailed LOST money for PAMPA at the last posted prices.  ...
If you cannot figure out a way to make money with plans, perhaps it is time to let go.

The best I can think of is to send them to one or more of the free plans sites. From there, they will spread to other free plans sites and to individual people's computers. Certainly, somebody will start offering printed plans on ebay, but that is their headache.

My favorite free plans site is https://outerzone.co.uk/ , because it is totally open and does not even require login. Outerzone got started from people posting old plans in the Control Line and Vintage & Old-Timer sections on rcgroups, but Outerzone makes it easier to find plans that you want. They mainly have plans in PDF format but related articles and CAD files are also posted when available.

hippocketaeronautics and aerofred are also free but they require login.
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2021, 05:13:04 AM »
We haven't been trying to make money on plans (hence haven't been advertising them).  I've been trying to express here there is no dilemma .  I've been asked for five or six sets of plans in the last year and a half.  Not worth a 'program' and not worrying about making any money.  I've simply sent out the pdf when someone asks and you print  your own.  I just don't want someone  to order twenty sets of plans you'll never use.  I've thought maybe I should ask you to contribute something-maybe $5 to PAMPA for plans but the website isn't programed for that.  We may look into doing something along those lines and if so we can put the list up for electronic transfer only. 

Dave
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Offline John Miller

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2021, 05:42:30 PM »
Hi Dave.

Thanks to you, and your few, but dedicated, volunteers, for all you do for the hobby and PAMPA. I know, as Cunningham used to say, "We're all in it for the women, and the money".  LL~

I'm all in for bringing PAMPA into a collaboration with Stunt Hangar. It seems to be a good match up. It will probably take some extra effort from more than a few dedicated "Volunteers" to iron out the wrinkles. but it may very well make a real difference in the hobby-Sport. Pampa has had such moments in the past. One of the biggest, as I recall, was under the editorship of Tom Morris.

Time marches on, and changes are made, or dictated, to satisfy the times, abilities, and pressures, upon the membership and volunteers.

We seem to be at one of those moments in our history, where we have to make a few changes in direction to stay alive, and pertinent, in today's reality of our diminishing numbers.

May I be so brave as to suggest a few small, and not so small, changes that, IMO might make the marriage work better, smoother, and becoming a positive for both PAMPA, and Stunt Hangar?

[1]   The layout that's posted under PAMPA is a good start, but, We need an editor, some one to glue it all together.  This could be a new, separate person, or be part of the job description of the Pres. or V.Pres. I see this person having a space in the listings, and the job would be to review and call attention to features, and reports that would require, or be of interest, for the membership. The editor could set up the table of contents, listing all the features, on a regular basis, as an ongoing  function.

[2]    Another listing could be made for reports and articles, technical through general interest. I see this as a space that would become over time, a repository of all these types of postings, virtual publishing as it were. This is where the publishing of Design articles and plans would be found. This could become one of the most valuable benefits coming from PAMPA membership.

[3]    Another listing could be made for "Ships Store". (Being an old PO3 Ships Serviceman, Navy guy, That's the type of name I would give it, but others might come up with a bettor one.) It's a space to list and sell all the neat PAMPA stuff, like Hats, Tee Shirts, Patches, Jackets, stickers, training sheets, and such. Modernizing to allow payment by Credit, Debit, and even PayPal would make the job easier. The person in charge of this space would have to store the bits and pieces, as well as package, and ship the merchandise. Helpers, if there were some to volunteer, could store some product, ship, upon confirmation of payment, and report shipping and resupply needs to the "Store Boss." No volunteers? That's why the name, "STORE BOSS."

[4]    A list that can be searched for specific plans PAMPA has the rights to. A space where one can load a cart, go to the checkout and pay by credit, debit, or PayPal would be super.

The problem with physical plan sales is the cost of printing, and mailing out, either rolled in tubes, or folded in a large envelopes. It's true that mailing, folded, in large envelopes is less expensive  than rolled in tubes.  If you add in the time to get the masters, take them to the printer, get the prints made to correct scale, package them, and take them to the post office, one can easily see the costs in materials, time, and energy driving the costs up. Even printing with your own large scale printer can be expensive should you have one.   

Additionally, storage of hard master copies can become an over-bearing problem. even more problematic is the possible loss to insects, vermin, humidity, mold, flooding, and, fire. Storing backups should be off-site, and mandatory. un-backed up drawings are lost forever.

Storage of drawings as files is simpler and takes almost no physical space. Multiple storage sites are possible. I currently have at least 500 to 1K of physical, and digital drawings, or files. I keep the digital files on a 256GB thumb drive. I back them up in at least 3 different ways. I have a 4TB external drive where everything on that computer is backed up. I use large (64GB-256GB) flash drives to store my files. I can have them physically at off sight locations or use them to update 2 other computers I sometimes use. Finally, at least once a month I will store all my drawings to disk. Just recently, a purchased space on the cloud, which should make it even easier to store and access the files. Of course it's still best to store at least 1 copy, physically at home, and at least one off-site location. Some of my offsite files are even stored on other continents.  There's just too many hours of work to lose by messing storage up.

Previously, I was a little cavalier in this regard, and lost all the files on the 2 computers I was using. I was crushed until I discovered I did have all but a few days work stored on disks, hard drives, and thumb drives. The problem was they were not stored logically, I'm still working on setting up a smooth system on my main computer. All this teaches that good backup is essential.

I believe the members will be best served by using digital files. These files, in .PDF format, would be the best way, to get drawing files to the members currently.  Easy downloading after payment, and the customer has them in minutes, and in a form that can be easily looked over on their computer. They can be printed, full sized, or scaled to other sizes, at many local area printers who can print large, full-sized drawings. 

Sharing of revenues, helps PAMPA, Stunt Hangar, and authors and designers, thus is a help to inspire authors and designers to submit their work to be published in this PAMPA site.


What's the downside?

I'm searching for a limiter, for lack of a better name, something that would limit the number of prints, available from a file, after downloading. Without such ability, you could easily lose control of your product once it was received by the buyer. I can understand 2 prints for each download, but more allows the re-sale on sites such as we have now, and could eventually wipe out the demand for legitimate, under copyright, digital files-prints.

Setting up a marketing site may present some problems. I seem to remember a volunteer trying to get such a site going,  when PAMPA was trying to take Credit/Debit cards to pay for memberships and renewals.

John Miller

Getting a line on life. AMA 1601

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2021, 05:23:41 AM »
John Thank You for taking the time write such a thoughtful post.  I likely won't address all your points but I'll comment on a couple.  First WE DO have an editor in the form of one BOB HUNT who is in charge of what goes into the PAMPA Pages (catchy name-your think?)  From my experience with both the plans and what very little merchandise is left this whole thing ain't worth anybody worrying about!  If there were any real demand it would be different.  I told my crew I see no reason to invest any more in shirts etc., what I took and sold at the last  Nats were close to the last of it and that was probably made 10 years ago.  Now there is mostly just a couple hundred pounds of books in my basement that PAMPA paid way to much to ship around the country to various handlers and I just about can't give them away.  Not going to ship them again.  It seems silly to me to think like this is some sort of a thriving business-it isn't.  Also I'd like to say something about all this talk of what PAMPA has 'rights' to.  If that were violated, WHO would sue for WHAT?  There were/are not written contracts, not enough money involved to pay any lawyer and flatly, nobody has paid or cared to pay anybody for rights to anything in our sport for decades.  No one has paid thousands to register  a copyright nor apply to the patent office.  Everyone duplicates, copies or 'steals' anything they wish.  How many 'modified Noblers" have you seen?. 
If we get to place where there really develops enough demand, then we can and will look at up-to-date ways to handle it.  THAT I'm sure will do away with anyone handling paper.  Just sending electronic files is the best, fastest and most economical way.


Thanks again!

Dave
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2021, 09:26:17 AM »
Member in good standing of P.I.S.T
(Politically Incorrect Stunt Team)
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 Randy Powell

Offline John Miller

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2021, 03:37:10 PM »
Also I'd like to say something about all this talk of what PAMPA has 'rights' to.[/color]


I believe I may not have addressed my meaning when I used the term "rights to" when attempting to delineate the difference between plans, designs, and even articles held by PAMPA.

My use of the term "rights to", was to clarify that only items belonging to PAMPA would be made available from this proposed PAMPA site, and no where else, without permission. It goes without saying that items not held, owned, copyrighted, by PAMPA would, without permission, be sold, or distributed from the site either.


If that were violated, WHO would sue for WHAT?  There were/are not written contracts, not enough money involved to pay any lawyer and flatly, nobody has paid or cared to pay anybody for rights to anything in our sport for decades. [/color]

When Ted Fancher wrote, and published the "Trivial Pursuit" article wherein he donated the article and plans to PAMPA to help maintain the fiscal well being and future of the organization. In his article he encouraged others to follow his example, Such documents are, and were created, sold or given, (the usual case) to PAMPA. So PAMPA, not the AMA, Flying Models, etc., etc. holds the rights, no matter how great, or insignificantly perceived or valued.

IF, the free state, ebb and flow, of such documents doesn't really matter and is the preferred state of being, then everyone should be OK to offer the entire listing from any published, or not, source in our hobby, free, for personal use.

It does matter though. It"s Plagiarism, and is socially looked down upon, and devalues the honor and/or social standing of the perpetrator at the least. It is an actionable item, though often, as related above, reliance is kept to the knowledge that the shunned perpetrator is under a dark cloud.

No one has paid thousands to register  a copyright nor apply to the patent office.  Everyone duplicates, copies or 'steals' anything they wish.[/color]

Does everyone's error in practice make it alright? Few people would release drawings for the use of others without the chance of compensation, ever so small, for all the time involved producing a good working design and/or drawing, let alone creating the CAD files that allow laser kit cutting.

A common problem is that copyright laws are not well understood. Years ago they were different, and lasted basically forever. Copyright laws, as they stand for the past several decades, have changed. they are much easier to get, but no longer last forever. 

Our plans, as well as any other plans from other disciplines, are considered by the government copyright office as art.  The copyright is automatically created when the artwork is created. Usually, but not necessarily mandated, the Copyright symbol, a C within a circle, with the year and the name of the person, (the "artist" or entity) who created, or commissioned it affixed to the document. This in the US, is all that is required. It does not have to be registered, filed with the government,(with or without an attorney) though it can be, nor pay a fee. The foregoing is all that is needed, based on what I have read in the past.

It's true that many may perceive the value to be so low that invoking copyright ownership would not be worth it, but, for commercial use it's a whole different world. I believe this is why so many hobby plan sites are free for personal use. Charging for (Pirated) plans shifts the onus to become commercial use. I know for a fact that most manufacturers and kit makers recognize and respect the "rights". They often go to extremes to secure these rights from persons, family, and heirs before producing products from these copyrighted sources.

How many 'modified Noblers" have you seen?. 
[/color]

Good point, but there's also a good answer. The term, "modified Noblers" makes the point.  Each new (modified) piece of artwork created, differing in substance as to make it not a direct copy of an original is considered a new artwork under most circumstances, deserving of its' own copyright. This also brings up another interesting point.

Our Plans and model aircraft designs are not eligible for a patent. It goes to the fact that an airplane is an airplane. They have wings, a tail plane, fuselage, and power system. Patents ran out years ago. You could possibly get a patent on an anti gravity flying disc, if you were to invent such a beast, but only under US laws, not interstellar law.  S?P   :o LL~


If we get to place where there really develops enough demand, then we can and will look at up-to-date ways to handle it.  THAT I'm sure will do away with anyone handling paper.  Just sending electronic files is the best, fastest and most economical way.


Dave, unlike yourself, I can only look from the outside. I do not have the knowledge gained from the everyday workings of the Organization. I have, in the past served in several clubs and organizations that allow me a basic, at least, understanding. I am offering what, in my mind, may be a peek at part of the possible future of PAMPA.


It's my opinion that the collaboration between SH and PAMPA online together will bring a new strength to Pampa.It may "really develop(s) enough demand", I believe that now is the time to seriously explore, develop, and begin implementing.

You and your staff have my admiration for all you have, and are doing, for all of us in the hobby.

Herding Cats is an art.

John Miller

 
Getting a line on life. AMA 1601

Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2021, 06:53:20 PM »
Hi Guys as some of you may know Bob Hunt, Sparky, and I are working to create a PAMPA extension / newsletter type effort here on Stunt Hanger. A plans service could be worked into the plan there would be details to be worked out. Mainly how to handle any payment options. Obviously the electronic versions of the plans will need to be hosted somewhere. Google Drive or similar cloud storage would be used and once payment for a plan was received a one time link to the plan can be provided to the buyer. Of course someone would need to volunteer to manage and administer plan orders. Full size prints would have to be special order, however PDF's of the full size plans can easily taken to any Office Depo or Staples, Kinkos, etc. to have printed by the purchaser. If the buyer wants the plan set on USB drive that would be an additional charge should not be much as 1-2 gig USB stick are rather inexpensive. Actually that my even be easier and cost effective than cloud hosting and sending download link with expiration as it is just a copy and paste operation stick it in an envelope and mail. Although the USB stick method does not keep the plan set from being shared between many people. But then again nothing is so secure that it could not be shared if people wish to do so. I suppose the file could be password protected and have a limited use limit but that has it's own problems.
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Offline PerttiMe

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2021, 11:56:47 PM »
What is the reason you want to keep control of the plans?

I'd understand if you expected to get some income out of them.
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2021, 06:03:45 AM »
The vast majority of PAMPA plans were donated to the organization by those who understood that the sale of said plans would benefit PAMPA financially. Many of the plans were presented along with an article about the plane in question in the pages of Stunt News. To now just "give them away for free" to my way of thinking is an insult to those who made a very unselfish gesture in the form of a gift to PAMPA.

There has developed a culture that expects intellectual properties to be fair game for the masses. Pirating of plans is now commonplace, and there are several sites online that offer free PDF files for plans that were published along with construction articles in various modeling magazines around the world. Guys, this is just WRONG! And no amount of rationalizing will make it RIGHT. Yeah, I know that I will take a lot of heat for the above position. BRING IT ON! It is time to stand up for what is right. It is time to recognize that some have given freely from the heart to this hobby/sport and expect their gifts to be administered properly and respected fully.

PAMPA needs a lot of attention right now, and to just "release" the plans that they have been endowed with is a misappropriation of assets. If you love those designs enough to spend hundreds of hours building one of them, and hundreds of dollars for the materials with which to build it, then pay proper respect to the designer's wishes and BUY a set of plans from PAMPA. (Yes, I know that the procedure for purchasing plans from PAMPA has become difficult; that can be fixed.)

I'll go even further: If you receive or download a set of plans for free from an internet site, send a check for the amount that said plan would have cost if ordered from a legitimate plans source to either the designer of that plane, if he/she is still with us, to the family of the designer if he/she is deceased, or in the form of a donation to the AMA scholarship fund in the designer's name. People, we are talking about the amount of money it takes to purchase an average dinner at a diner these days.

Let's be honorable about this and do the RIGHT THING!

Bob Hunt   

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2021, 07:36:58 PM »

 Right on Bob.  y1
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2021, 10:15:43 PM »
...
PAMPA needs a lot of attention right now, and to just "release" the plans that they have been endowed with is a misappropriation of assets. If you love those designs enough to spend hundreds of hours building one of them, and hundreds of dollars for the materials with which to build it, then pay proper respect to the designer's wishes and BUY a set of plans from PAMPA. (Yes, I know that the procedure for purchasing plans from PAMPA has become difficult; that can be fixed.)
...   
Let's see it happen.
The plans just sittting there in a thumb drive is also an insult.
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2021, 07:53:53 AM »
Just for the record it cost me $16 per plan at Fedex to print up plans (for my pals  here on Stunthanger) of the Potissimus Ulterious....And another $5 to $5.50 to send them out.  Not counted is my time at Fedex and time neatly packing them up...... It's not so easy peasy. Cheers,Skip

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2021, 08:20:23 AM »
Let's see it happen.
The plans just sittting there in a thumb drive is also an insult.

An insult? How do you figure that? It is true that PAMPA has had a lot of issues in staffing the various necessary positions to insure smooth operation. But it is hardly an "insult." I don't remember seeing your name (just what is your name by the way; your profile doesn't list that on the Stunt Hangar site, and you are supposed to register with your actual name) coming up as a VOLUNTEER to help out with PAMPA.

As of yesterday a lot of changes have been made to PAMPA staffing. A VOLUNTEER has stepped forward to handle the plans service for PAMPA. His name will be released along with a few others who have stepped forward to VOLUNTEER to re-energize PAMPA. I have VOLUNTEERED along with Alan Hieger to co-edit the newsletter and get it up onto the PAMPA website. That will take a few weeks - at least - to accomplish.

We are a diminishing group; if we want things like PAMPA to continue to exist then we have to count on VOLUNTEERS to staff the necessary positions that make the organization go and hopefully grow. We have been blessed with a number of really good people who have taken on the District Director positions, but they cannot be expected to do that job and also take on things like plan sales. I hear a lot of criticism about PAMPA, but I hear crickets for the most part when it comes to people stepping forward to VOLUNTEER to help. Now, THAT is an insult...

Yours for Better Modeling
Bob Hunt
AMA 1114 HOF
PAMPA HOF
Member AMA Control Line Aerobatic Contest Board
Retired Editor Flying Models magazine
Retired Editor Model Aviation magazine
Retired Editor Emeritus Model Aviation magazine
Retired Appointee AMA PADCOM committee
Two time USA Assistant World Team Manager
Two time Assistant Nats Director
Three time Assistant Manager of US FAI F2B Team Selection
12 time Nats and/or FAI Team Selection Judge
Eight Years Editor Stunt News
Former District 3 Director for PAMPA
AMA Contest Director
1978 World F2B Champion
Six-time US FAI Team member
1976 National Stunt Champion
Seven time VSC Classic Stunt Champion
Three time Nats Classic Stunt Champion
(Or does my past service to the modeling community, my accomplishments, and my VOLUNTEERING insult you? That's a rhetorical question... I really don't care.)

   

 

Offline John Miller

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2021, 09:51:54 AM »
Thanks, Bob, for all your help supporting the hobby/sport for these many years. I'm looking forward to seeing a possible PAMPA renewal occur as a result of these proposed re-focusing efforts.

Sparky also deserves Thanks for his willingness to provide space on his site, as well as for the work and dedication creating and maintaining Stunt Hangar for all of us to enjoy. Though it appears PAMPA has chosen to use its' own web-site, doesn't diminish Sparkys willingness to help.

I personally feel that there should be prominent links on Stunt Hangar directing  viewers to the PAMPA web-site, as well as reciprocating links from PAMPA to Stunt Hangar. I like links. I miss the old link site that once, "back in the day," was on the internet.

I'm looking forward to this next step in our evolution.

John Miller
Getting a line on life. AMA 1601

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2021, 06:21:56 PM »
Just for the record it cost me $16 per plan at Fedex to print up plans (for my pals  here on Stunthanger) of the Potissimus Ulterious....And another $5 to $5.50 to send them out.  Not counted is my time at Fedex and time neatly packing them up...... It's not so easy peasy. Cheers,Skip

Skip just got my plans today.  Haven't looked at them yet, but for one of a kind designs I would have paid more.  Remind me to buy you a cup of coffee if we ever meet. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2021, 08:53:04 PM »
An insult? How do you figure that? It is true that PAMPA has had a lot of issues in staffing the various necessary positions to insure smooth operation. But it is hardly an "insult." I don't remember seeing your name (just what is your name by the way; your profile doesn't list that on the Stunt Hangar site, and you are supposed to register with your actual name) coming up as a VOLUNTEER to help out with PAMPA.
...

 
My name is Pertti Metsänheimo. I used it to register. And Im sending you $100 if you provide proof that you can pronounce it correctly. I don't think there's many here who can spell it correctly, without looking and digging deeper into the features of their keyboards.

It is an insult because, recently, practically nobody has been getting any plans. PAMPA has been given plans so that people could have plans. I have bought PAMPA plans but not recently.
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2021, 06:02:43 AM »
So, I can sign you up as a PAMPA VOLUNTEER to help with the plans sales issues?

You can keep the hundred bucks, I have no need or desire to even try to pronounce your last name.

Bob Hunt
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 06:44:26 AM by Bob Hunt »

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: PAMPA Plans
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2021, 08:57:11 AM »
In hopes of putting a cap on this let me say we indeed have someone who has stepped up and is willing to do the footwork of handling the plans.  It will take a bit of time to get that worked out because the website is not currently constructed to handle the selection, purchase and info transfer to the necessary parties involved.  It is all a bit more complicated than many realize.
The plans were last advertised back when we published the full-sized version of Stunt News which Bob edited.  One of the first steps taken to cut costs at the time and keep printing was to trim the magazine down to a shadow of it's former self.  One thing decided upon at the time was to cut the plans service among many other things going from 100 pages down to 34.  The plans weren't generating enough sales/demand to stay given what had to be done.  I know this because while I was not a senior officer at the time , I WAS on the Executive Counsel.  While the plans service WAS going it was all done by snail mail.  Once I came to take control and the treasury ran dry I asked to stop printing.  Actually I wouldn't have been able to pay for the next issue.  So when we went entirely on-line the website was never built to handle plans-it was never envisioned it would need to.  That pretty much brings us to where we are now.  The demand has been nearly non-existent and there was no simple method to do that business.  I never had really given thought to post the list on the website until now and if we did, you would have to mail me a paper check and I'd have to manually do all the footwork on my few days off work.  My plate is fairly full as it is with PAMPA and the Nats so no, I wasn't looking for more to do.....I'd invite you to run for this job next time if you disagree.....

Dave (life under the bus) Trible
AMA 20934
FAA Certificate FA3ATY4T94


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