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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Dwayne on July 03, 2013, 03:25:39 PM
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I've been learning the pattern and for the life of me I can't get the top half of the V-8, is there a description of how to fly this maneuver.
Thank you
Dwayne
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Do your inside (bottom) loop as you would. When you reach the top the second time, give it "down" to perform the "outside" loop. Halfway through the outside (top) loop you should be directly overhead. Continue the loop to complete, and then give it "up" to go back into the inside (bottom) loop again. You want the intersection of the two loops as close to 45 degrees as you can get. Don't try to make the loops to tight; open them up and make them big to start.
Hope this helps somewhat.
BTW, many of us pancaked in on the bottom, usually from not getting the top of the maneuver completely overhead as it should be.
Brian
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Most novice stunt pilots fly the bottom loop too small and the top loop toooooo small. Thus there is no room to complete the maneuver correctly.
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In the Judging Clinic Forum, the original post for each maneuver has the description of the maneuver as copied/pasted from the AMA rulebook...or you could go straight to the AMA website, a link for which is also posted.
With or without our neck/spinal problems, it's oddly difficult to find "directly overhead". Judging, I see many making the V8 too big, and I deduct for it. It is NOT hard to see if the plane goes to 90 deg. or past 90. If the wing is not straight up/down, it's either too big or too little. My coach tells me mine are too small, yet I believe they are too big. The judges, well...I dunno what they are thinking, because they must have their eyes closed! LL~ Steve
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I've been learning the pattern and for the life of me I can't get the top half of the V-8, is there a description of how to fly this maneuver.
The shape is well-defined in the rule book pictures. What problem are you having with it?
Brett
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Most novice stunt pilots fly the bottom loop too small and the top loop toooooo small. Thus there is no room to complete the maneuver correctly.
In other words. Think big!
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The shape is well-defined in the rule book pictures. What problem are you having with it?
Brett
Thanks everyone. Brett, when I get to the point where the model is directly over head I can't figure out if should continue to hold down or neutral for a bit, I have no idea, my top loop ends being a half loop as I always seem to be applying to much down. Does that make sense? It's hard to describe in writing, what I'm looking for is what is your hand doing at the top.
Thanks
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In the Judging Clinic Forum, the original post for each maneuver has the description of the maneuver as copied/pasted from the AMA rulebook...or you could go straight to the AMA website, a link for which is also posted.
With or without our neck/spinal problems, it's oddly difficult to find "directly overhead". Judging, I see many making the V8 too big, and I deduct for it. It is NOT hard to see if the plane goes to 90 deg. or past 90. If the wing is not straight up/down, it's either too big or too little. My coach tells me mine are too small, yet I believe they are too big. The judges, well...I dunno what they are thinking, because they must have their eyes closed! LL~ Steve
Ahmen to that, i'm 7 months post opp and yes I can fly again but I still get sore if I push it to much, my doctor says it could take over a year until I'm 100% pain free, we'll see, I do hope.
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Dwayne, are you over thinking this? (My friends snicker...)
When you say "half a loop" do you mean it only goes through 180 degrees (surely not), or that the top loop is half the size of the bottom one?
If you're still at the point in flying where the maneuver's over and you say "whazzat?", then may I suggest that you just give it less down all the way around? Eventually as you get better you'll start actually flying the airplane through the whole maneuver, instead of just going through practiced hand motions -- at that point you'll be wondering what all the fuss is about.
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Go watch the expert pilots fly the V-8. Not the airplane, but the pilots. You will see their hand and body positions. In fact it sometimes helps if you watch the expert fly the whole pattern and not the plane. Some are rigid as poles and some are ballet dancers. Best ones are those that fall in between the two types.
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Go watch the expert pilots fly the V-8. Not the airplane, but the pilots. You will see their hand and body positions. In fact it sometimes helps if you watch the expert fly the whole pattern and not the plane. Some are rigid as poles and some are ballet dancers. Best ones are those that fall in between the two types.
Do a youtube search on "Paul Walker", "Ted Fancher", etc. You'll see videos. There are some really good ones of Paul that focus on the pilot; those really helped me as I was transitioning from beginner to intermediate.
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If you fly the bottom loop too big, then you will hit the bottom. That is how I have crashed many times. Bottom loop way too big, no room, at the top, and coming down the bottom loop is just too big. I know you have seen me do this several times as a judge. H^^
I think the best advice I got for flying the whole pattern without crashing came from Mark Scarborough. I was trying to make everything perfect all at once, and crashing a lot.
Mark told me to pick an altitude, well above five feet, and use that as my bottom line. Then as I got more consistent, I could move the line down.
I took his advise (yes, Mark, I do occasionally take your advise) and I had a lot fewer "bottom of the loop" crashes.
There's no reason you can't do your vertical eight overhead until you're doing it consistently. Then start moving the bottom down.
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Thanks everyone. Brett, when I get to the point where the model is directly over head I can't figure out if should continue to hold down or neutral for a bit, I have no idea, my top loop ends being a half loop as I always seem to be applying to much down. Does that make sense? It's hard to describe in writing, what I'm looking for is what is your hand doing at the top.
Thanks
Dwayne,
It soundsike you have a tendency to fly loops by simply pulling up or down. Actually a round loop consists of subtle changes in the amount of control being fed into the handle in various parts of the loop.
I would suggest that you practice flying loops, particularly outside loops (from the top of the circle), only loops and concentrate on making them smaller or larger at will.
This practice is aimed at continually flying the airplane around and imagined shape, not just applying control and hoping it comes out at the right place.
At some point in this practice you will begin to actually constantly control the airplane where you want it to go. The intention is to picture the maneuver in your mind and then constantly direct the airplane through it. It's not just point and shoot... %^@
Certainly trim of the airplane is a consideration here...it should turn the same in both directions and be responsive without being jumpy or unstable.
Getting an expert to help trim the plane is a big plus.
Best of luck in this endeavor and keep trying.
Randy Cuberly
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I think it may help to "dissect" a maneuver. Take it apart and practice just parts of it.
For the V-8, start inverted at what you consider 45 deg. Then do a series of outside loops from 45 deg to vertical. That will get you used to what the top half of the V-8 looks like from your position.
Many flyers try to do the complete pattern each flight. Then they spend only a few seconds going through their weak places in the pattern, while spending a lot of time flying parts that may not require more work.
Have someone make notes of which maneuvers you need to practice. Then spend a whole flight doing just those.
Floyd
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Thanks everyone. I'm the only regular control line flier in my club so flying with an expert is pretty much out of the question. So it's off the field to keep on practicing, I'll use the addvice posted here and hopefully I'll get it n~ y1
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Thanks everyone. I'm the only regular control line flier in my club so flying with an expert is pretty much out of the question. So it's off the field to keep on practicing, I'll use the addvice posted here and hopefully I'll get it n~ y1
Ask often! We may not always help, but we'll sure try. Floyd's comment regarding flying a flight just practicing one maneuver, is good advice! y1 y1 y1
Brian
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Thanks everyone. I'm the only regular control line flier in my club so flying with an expert is pretty much out of the question. So it's off the field to keep on practicing, I'll use the addvice posted here and hopefully I'll get it n~ y1
Dwayne,
It would be worth some reasonable travel (even a few hundred miles) to spend a day flying with an expert that could insure that the problems you're having aren't airplane trim problems and to actuall see how it should be done.
Most expert level fliers would be happy to help you in such an endeavor.
Randy Cuberly
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Dwayne,
It would be worth some reasonable travel (even a few hundred miles) to spend a day flying with an expert that could insure that the problems you're having aren't airplane trim problems and to actuall see how it should be done.
Most expert level fliers would be happy to help you in such an en
Randy Cuberly
Agree in fact I do go to a contest every year and I compete in OTS but like a dummy I always get caught up in the moment and forget to ask anyone for help :P b1
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After your description of what's going wrong, I'm wondering if you're not following the plane with your arm? If you don't, then the control input tends to go away as the plane responds.
Are there any YouTube vids of Brett flying? I'd like to just watch his stance and "dance moves". H^^ Steve
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Thanks everyone. Brett, when I get to the point where the model is directly over head I can't figure out if should continue to hold down or neutral for a bit, I have no idea, my top loop ends being a half loop as I always seem to be applying to much down. Does that make sense? It's hard to describe in writing, what I'm looking for is what is your hand doing at the top.
I don't think about it as handle position, I think of it as control pressure/effort. As you climb in the first loop (inside, just at the entry at the bottom*), you need A LOT of control pressure to get it started, then much less to get it to go around the radius. The higher you get, the less pressure it takes, then the pressure goes up as you near the bottom again. Then, less-less-less until you get to the intersection, a quick spike from inside to outside in the intersection. As you climb further, it takes less and less outside pressure, then right at the top, it reaches a minimum. Nothing really much happens right at the top, you keep the same handle pressure/position until it starts coming down again, gradually add outside pressure as you reach the intersection, then a quick spike to get it from inside to outside, then increasing inside pressure as it gets to the bottom.
You require less control deflection for any given turn as you get higher on the sphere. That's because it's not fighting gravity and the speed tends to bleed off as you get higher. As the wind increases, the effect is exaggerated. Back in the good old days with 4-2 break motors and 15 mph of wind, it was very common to be hanging the thing on one line at the bottom of the vertical 8 - at which point you are merely a spectator, hoping it comes out in the right spot. This is arguably the hardest maneuver to do in heavy wind, depending on the airplane.
This all presumes you don't have some other issue. Many, many times, the problem is not a function of handle manipulation, but of perception - being able to maintain your orientation throughout the maneuver. Once you turn your head up to follow the airplane, you can lose sight of the ground, and then get disoriented. I am a big advocate of using your posture to create a "reference frame" to do the maneuvers. See many previous posts on the topic.
Brett
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I don't think about it as handle position, I think of it as control pressure/effort. As you climb in the first loop (inside, just at the entry at the bottom*), you need A LOT of control pressure to get it started, then much less to get it to go around the radius. The higher you get, the less pressure it takes, then the pressure goes up as you near the bottom again. Then, less-less-less until you get to the intersection, a quick spike from inside to outside in the intersection. As you climb further, it takes less and less outside pressure, then right at the top, it reaches a minimum. Nothing really much happens right at the top, you keep the same handle pressure/position until it starts coming down again, gradually add outside pressure as you reach the intersection, then a quick spike to get it from inside to outside, then increasing inside pressure as it gets to the bottom.
You require less control deflection for any given turn as you get higher on the sphere. That's because it's not fighting gravity and the speed tends to bleed off as you get higher. As the wind increases, the effect is exaggerated. Back in the good old days with 4-2 break motors and 15 mph of wind, it was very common to be hanging the thing on one line at the bottom of the vertical 8 - at which point you are merely a spectator, hoping it comes out in the right spot. This is arguably the hardest maneuver to do in heavy wind, depending on the airplane.
This all presumes you don't have some other issue. Many, many times, the problem is not a function of handle manipulation, but of perception - being able to maintain your orientation throughout the maneuver. Once you turn your head up to follow the airplane, you can lose sight of the ground, and then get disoriented. I am a big advocate of using your posture to create a "reference frame" to do the maneuvers. See many previous posts on the topic.
Brett
That's what I was looking for, thank you
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Just one tiny point that may or may not be useful, once you get comfortable flying the basic manoeuvre: my first vertical eights were all over the place - bottom too small, top way back over my head, sometimes leaning one way or the other, egg-shaped loops, X-shaped intersections, all that kind of thing - so I remembered a tip from somewhere about practising a manoeuvre by flying it consecutively as many as half-a-dozen times. It really did seem to help me get some sort of consistency.
Regards
John
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Over the years, I have made it a point to carefully watch some of the top flyers. On the vertical 8, I notice many flyers do go past vertical. I think this is because the top loop looks smaller to both judges and flyer, so in order to open it up, one has to go past vertical. The judges don't seem to mind, or else they don't see it?
I'm not a top flyer, but my vertical 8s go past vertical. Just looks better!
Floyd
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This thread came along at the perfect time for me, as I've been planning to teach myself to do it the next time i fly. I've been flying it in my head without having any idea of the correct way to treat it. I always fly much better in my head than I do in real life. ::) I'm going to do it first with my Baby Flite Streak since I'm much more confident with 1/2A, and very new to larger stunters, and don't want to bash my Shoestring. I already bottomed it out on an inside loop once, luckily only spread out the LG. Now after reading all of your comments on the V8, I have a better idea about what to expect. I know I wouldn't have made the top loop high enough.
Thanks,
Rusty
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Again thank you everyone for the replies. Just got back from the field, here's what I did. I only flew the outside part of the V-8 over and over and what I found was I wasn't applying enough down (or pressure/effort, thanks Brett) once the model passed overhead that is why I couldn't get the plane back to the intersection point of the maneuver properly. It's still far from perfect but it's looking much better. #^