Smoothie: Brodak vs. Veco

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Has anyone here compared the Brodak and Veco kits of Bob Palmer’s Smoothie?  If so, I’d be interested in any differences, especially the wing layout and airfoil.  Can I mount the wing from one in the fuselage of the other?

Thanks!


Dennis
 

[peabody]

Hi Dennis....
Just as there are differences between the originally published Smoothie plan and the first kitted version, there are differences in the Brodak piece.
I asked Bob how the Brodak version seemed to have a "modern", thick airfoil and bigger tail and he replied that it was what he flew to many wins....

I do know that John worked with Bob quite a bit (just as he did with George Aldrich for the Nobler) and that Bob signed the plans that the ARF/ARC/Brodak kit are based upon.....

Have fun!

[Chuck Feldman]

Smoothie;  I have several sets of plans of the Smoothie. The biggest difference appears to be the airfoil. In the older plans the ribs are cut thinner in the back half of the wing. Not quite polliwog but close. When the Arf first came out there where cries of FOWL from the west coast fliers. However this quickly died out. I think they where saying that the stab and elevator where larger than they should be. I built a smoothie in the 1970's and it flew well. First Smoothie I ever saw was in Haddonfield NJ in the early 50's and it had a Fox 59 in it. Wow was that something. Mike Keville might join in here as he was present in Haddonfield at the time. As far as the Arf Smoothie is concerned the next one I put together will not have the built up Stab and Elevator. I will make them from 1/4" or 5/16th solid balsa. Why? When I clean the existing built up tale surfaces they flex to easily.

[Bill Little]

Has anyone here compared the Brodak and Veco kits of Bob Palmer’s Smoothie?  If so, I’d be interested in any differences, especially the wing layout and airfoil.  Can I mount the wing from one in the fuselage of the other?

Thanks!


Dennis
 

Hi Dennis,

The most obvious difference between the Veco kit and the Brodak kit is in the rib airfoils.  Much thicker in the Brodak kit.

Bill <><

[Mike Keville]

. . . First Smoothie I ever saw was in Haddonfield NJ in the early 50's and it had a Fox 59 in it. Wow was that something. Mike Keville might join in here as he was present in Haddonfield at the time . . .

Yes, I was in the Haddonfield club (Hi-Way Glo Bugs) 1951-1956, but can't recall ever seeing a Smoothie with a Fox 59.  In fact the only Smoothie I recall was an orange and cream (trim) version by a guy named Joe Neff.  It had Fox 35 power.

As for the contemporary kit, it has been stated that the late Bob Palmer OK'd a later version with a thicker airfoil.  Whether that's true or not I can't say.  Personally, the only Smoothie versions I'd find acceptable are the original Air Trails plan and/or the 1950s Veco kit.  All others are suspect (as are the contemporary versions of the "Sterling" Mustang and Yak-9 with their surface spars.)

And while we're on the subject, what's with the sheeted LE's on current Flying Clown & Super Clown kits, when the PDQ originals did not have that feature?  If they're allowed in OTS, why not the S-1A Ringmaster?

I'm just sayin' . . .

[Randy Cuberly]

Yes, I was in the Haddonfield club (Hi-Way Glo Bugs) 1951-1956, but can't recall ever seeing a Smoothie with a Fox 59.  In fact the only Smoothie I recall was an orange and cream (trim) version by a guy named Joe Neff.  It had Fox 35 power.

As for the contemporary kit, it has been stated that the late Bob Palmer OK'd a later version with a thicker airfoil.  Whether that's true or not I can't say.  Personally, the only Smoothie versions I'd find acceptable are the original Air Trails plan and/or the 1950s Veco kit.  All others are suspect (as are the contemporary versions of the "Sterling" Mustang and Yak-9 with their surface spars.)

And while we're on the subject, what's with the sheeted LE's on current Flying Clown & Super Clown kits, when the PDQ originals did not have that feature?  If they're allowed in OTS, why not the S-1A Ringmaster?

I'm just sayin' . . .


Yeah Mike,
And...as I mentioned in an earlier thread, the Viking from Brodak has a sheeted leading edge but the original did not.  Never really got a clear answer on that one either.
I do have a Brodak Viking kit that I'm afraid to build because it likely would not be OT legal.  I didn't realize it had a sheeted LE when I bought it several years ago.

Randy C.

[peabody]

Mike.....
I pointedly asked Palmer about the airfoil....several "respectable" types were there too, and he held that the Brodak version was "what he used on his favorite"......
As for PDQ stuff......that's another thing that I thought surprising....several (20?!!!) years ago someone from south Jersey allowed as how the had scored a bunch of kits from the old PDQ factory.....I thought that Clown Racing might be a giggle, and bought $150.00 worth at $5.00 each......
As I recall there were three distinct models amongst them: one had cap strips even....

Have fun

[Mike Keville]

As I recall there were three distinct models amongst them: one had cap strips even....

Not among the ones ever advertised for sale by PDQ at $1.95, that's for sure.

As opposed to pipe dreams and other wishful thinking, ya' hadda' BE there.

[Mike Keville]

The point here is that many of today's versions of so-called Old Time designs bear little-or-no resemblance to the original designs.

If asked, John Miske would probably agree.

In the interest of avoiding a possible lawsuit, I'll have no more to say about it.

[Steve Fitton]

This has been beaten alot, but I will kick the mouldering horse cadaver one more time.  Peabody's statements are accurate: Bob Palmer told me at great length, in person, as we looked at both prototype models on John Brodak's workbench one rainy afternoon at the contest, about the changes and what he said he actually built and flew "back in the day"  He was quietely adamant that the modern wing was correct, and while its possible his memory was in some way faulty, he sounded as sharp as a tack to me that day.  His primary concession to modern times was not the wing, but the cockpit/canopy area which he confessed was a million times easier with the painted bubble canopy than with the wrestling of a flat sheet of cellophane into a windscreen.  He was immensely proud of the new T Bird and Smoothie releases that day and repeated how he wished the original kit versions had more closely matched his design.
Obviously, a designer can rewrite history as much as anybody else.  But, given those unforgettable few minutes I got to spend with Bob, in the case of the Smoothie and T Bird I chose to believe Bob's version of events.

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Wow, great conversation here!

I've been around since the '50s and have spoken with several designers who were adamant in stating their designs were significantly changed when produced as kits.  Perhaps the worst example was Bill Carpenter's Super Swoop combat design as kitted by Sterling - the wingspan and wing area were reduced significantly to get it into a 36" box!

Mike, I perhaps share some of your consternation and just posted a short time ago in the discussion on "Question of Legality" -
When Brodak produces an F-51 Mustang or Yak-9 with a wing structure that doesn't inculde shaped & notched leading and trailing edges, is it a Sterling Mustang or Yak-9?  When Pat Johnston produces the P-51D Mustang with a beautiful shaped and notched leading edge - but modifies several other components - is it a Sterling Mustang?

I think most who produce kits of the old designs - including the 2 providers mentioned above - are doing a great service.  But I would like to see more explanation when the original manufacturer's name is included in ads or listings and the structure has been modified.
If I purchase a Sterling Yak-9, I want an original or reproduction of the original kit - but that's just my personal preference.  Come to think of it, I won't argue with better plans, better wood, better hardware, laser cut parts rather than die crunching ...


Dennis
 

[Chuck Feldman]

Mike,

Yes that's the one!   I guess the fox 59 idea came from a discussion among the men that a 59 would be a hoot or something.  Two things;

one; being a littile kid 12 or so I knew to keep my mouth shut. LOL that is the old school.
two; I have forgotten what number two is? that's present day Old school but different.

[EddyR]

The  Veco Chief kit use to say on the box from .19-.60 motor. A friend had a Olson 60 and I had a beat up Chief so we mounted that  Olson 60 in the nose of the Chief.
How did it fly? Very well and we were both surprised . The Olson was a pretty light motor for a .60 That was about 1955. The Chief was considered the best  stunt plane by my friends back in 1955.

[RandySmith]

As opposed to pipe dreams and other wishful thinking, ya' hadda' BE there.

Uncle Mikey has dreams of a pipe ship ?

Randy

[Dennis Adamisin]

Has anyone here compared the Brodak and Veco kits of Bob Palmer’s Smoothie?  If so, I’d be interested in any differences, especially the wing layout and airfoil.  Can I mount the wing from one in the fuselage of the other?

Thanks!


Dennis
 

The Smoothie has a bunch of variations - all documented:

* There are differences between the published plans and the Veco kit version, mainly the airfoil.

* John Miller did the CAD work for the Brodak kit/ARC/ARF.  John has stated here on SH & other places that he worked very closely with Bob Palmer, and used Bob's pencil drawings for his Smoothie.  This had a vastly difference airfoil than the published or Veco kit versions, plus the wing was some 40 square inches bigger - presumably the stab is bigger by a similar ratio.  Mr. Palmer signed off on the plans for HIS design - it is REALLY tough to argue accuracy under those circumstances!

* Now stay with me on this: If you look at the plans for Bob Palmer's Pow Wow, Mars, or Hi Boy, which are all roughly the same era as the Smoothie, you will find Mr. Palmer was using airfoils more reminiscent of the Brodak Smoothie than of the Veco Smoothie or the publshed plans for the Smoothie.  Thus there is supporting credibility for the airfoil on the pencil drawings, supplied to thhe CAD man to prepare the Brodak versions.

* Just ot muddy it up a little further there were upright and inverted engine versions of the Smoothie.  John Miller published a mini-plan showing how to build the Brodak kit with an inverted engine that emulated the Veco kit.  Don't forget the Curtiss Conqueror style exhaust stacks!


So, circling all the way back to your original question the answer is NO, the wing from the Veco Smoothie will not fit the fuselage (wing saddle) on the Brodak Smoothie - nor vice versa - without some MAJOR surgery.

I have a Palmer (Brodak) Smoothie that is RTF.  I got around the upright versus inverted engine dilemna by using an Outrunner.  I suspect Unca Mickey likes that even less than PIPES!   

[Mike Keville]

. . . I got around the upright versus inverted engine dilemna by using an Outrunner.  I suspect Unca Mickey likes that even less than PIPES!   

As far as true Old Time goes, you'd be absolutely correct.   

[Geoff Goodworth]

Somebody who was in a position to know—probably John or perhaps Bob when he was here—told me that Veco thinned the airfoils and introduced the polywog back half so they could get more ribs on a sheet in the kits.