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Offline Motorman

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« on: May 06, 2018, 02:45:40 PM »
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« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 05:56:11 PM by Motorman »

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2018, 03:38:32 PM »
 ;D Give the plane to me!!  ;D

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2018, 04:02:00 PM »
Hello
Had a similar problem with my similar size /weight profile Mustang with a Fox Hawk 60 trying to pull my arm off in the level flight portion but was still lacking pull overhead.

I de-pitched to a 13x4 prop and went to a smaller venturi size and removed all rudder off set in neutral (adjustable Rabe rudder so easy to tweak).
A lot less pull in level but the larger diameter prop has helped and overhead has improved as it does not go over lean and then slow down anymore now with the smaller venturi. I lost horsepower but what is left is much more manageable/usable.

Regards Gerald

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2018, 04:32:16 PM »
OK, so how do you get unnecessary pull out of a 69oz airplane with a 650 sq in wing other than raking the lead outs forward? I just flew the whole pattern and it was starting to pain my golfers elbow towards the end.

Thanks,
Motorman 8)

What is your line length and lap times?

Randy Cuberly
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Online Brent Williams

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2018, 06:37:23 PM »
70'  5.3 sec a lap. Plane is an ARF SV11

What prop and prop direction?
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2018, 07:06:13 PM »
OK, so how do you get unnecessary pull out of a 69oz airplane with a 650 sq in wing other than raking the lead outs forward? I just flew the whole pattern and it was starting to pain my golfers elbow towards the end.

     If it's more-than-sufficient pull everywhere, slow it down. If it pulls hard in level flight and low maneuvers, but is light overhead (meaning you can't slow it down), you probably have too much static yaw angle, which is mostly controlled by the rudder offset (to which you adjust the leadouts).

    Brett

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2018, 07:15:18 PM »
70'  5.3 sec a lap. Plane is an ARF SV11

The first thing I would consider is to shorten the lines to 65 ft center of airplane to handle.  Then slow the engine down (or reduce the prop pitch) to give 5.2 to 5.3 sec laps.  That alone will soften the pull by actually reducing the speed.  Then you will need to re-trim the lead out position.

Another factor that determines how hard the plane pulls is the location of the CG.  A forward CG (even a little more than ideal can increase the pull quite a bit.  Slowing the airplane will probably allow you to move the CG aft a bit.  Try enough tail weight (or reduce nose weight if possible) enough to move the CG about 1/8 inch at a time.  as you move the CG if it begins to become too sensitive add a touch of down elevator relative to the flaps.  By a touch I mean about 1 degree or a little less at a time.  This change is relative to the flap position not just the handle position.  In other words you're shorting the pushrod between the flap horn and the elevator.  Sorry about being so picky I just want to be sure you understand the exact trim change.  I know you're a relatively experienced CL flier but I'm not too sure of your trimming experience.  If you have an adjustable rudder make dead straight when you begin this process.  Once those things are done set the center point between the lead outs at about 1/2 inch behind the new CG.  Fly...  move the lead outs forward about 1/16 inch at a time until you begin to get some softening of tension above 45 degree flight path then go back to the previous point.  On the off hand chance that it's already too soft above 45 degrees move it forward anyway, it ma firm up the tension.  If not then move it back to the 1/2 in position and begin to move it back about 1/8 inch at a time.  A lot of "Short tanks" involved here as you probably have guessed.  Only way to really trim.  Change fly short tank, change, fly short tank....etc, etc, etc.  Oh year you may have to change the wing tip weight when you slow thing down...I would expect you can reduce it slowly by a bit!

Try it you'll probably like it!

The SV11 is a very good design and generally responds to trim changes very predictably as long as it's straight!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2018, 07:33:32 PM »
Hello
Interesting information that applies to my arm stretching model too. I realize now I added to the static yaw angle when I swapped out the light stack muffler to a full (heavy muffler ) to lower back pressure and engine heat and that made that angle go 'off' and never rechecked my line rake! Re-triming never ends it would seem  n~.
Regards Gerald #^

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2018, 07:35:50 PM »
Hello
Interesting information that applies to my arm stretching model too. I realize now I added to the static yaw angle when I swapped out the light stack muffler to a full (heavy muffler ) to lower back pressure and engine heat and that made that angle go 'off' and never rechecked my line rake! Re-triming never ends it would seem  n~.
Regards Gerald #^

  Rudder offset, too, for any particular rudder setting, there is a corresponding leadout position. And thy don't "fight" each other, more outboard rudder means a more AFT leadout position.

      Brett

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2018, 07:44:36 PM »
Hello
Interesting information that applies to my arm stretching model too. I realize now I added to the static yaw angle when I swapped out the light stack muffler to a full (heavy muffler ) to lower back pressure and engine heat and that made that angle go 'off' and never rechecked my line rake! Re-triming never ends it would seem  n~.
Regards Gerald #^

Well you also likely moved the CG forward which also makes it pull harder!!!  All other things equal!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2018, 07:55:26 PM »
Hello
Yes Randy the CG went forward and the line pull went up!
I liked the extra stability in the squares and never thought of the yaw/line rake issue till this post and saw it was hanging very nose down when holding by the leadouts.
Oh well it will be nice to fly it again "fixed", knowing I missed something obvious and there is always room for improvement and learning  :)
Regards Gerald

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2018, 08:35:51 PM »
Hello
Yes Randy the CG went forward and the line pull went up!
I liked the extra stability in the squares and never thought of the yaw/line rake issue till this post and saw it was hanging very nose down when holding by the leadouts.
Oh well it will be nice to fly it again "fixed", knowing I missed something obvious and there is always room for improvement and learning  :)
Regards Gerald

Interesting!

If there was lack of stability in the squares before that is lack of "tracking" and is a general stability issue and is usually caused by something else providing the level flight stability is good.  Always fix the level flight stability first then the tracking (stability)  in round loops, then look at the squares etc.  That is often a handle sensitivity issue not a CG issue.

Randy Cuberly!
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Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2018, 09:12:53 PM »
Hello Motorman

You must have some motor there to pull a 14x6 3 bladed! I presume electric with low KV number or a very large 2 or 4 stroke.
Interesting thought     "speed matters more then radius"   :!   hmmm

Regards Gerald

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2018, 09:13:42 PM »
Interesting!

If there was lack of stability in the squares before that is lack of "tracking" and is a general stability issue and is usually caused by something else providing the level flight stability is good.  Always fix the level flight stability first then the tracking (stability)  in round loops, then look at the squares etc.  That is often a handle sensitivity issue not a CG issue.

Randy Cuberly!

Hello Randy
Only recently have I started to readdress the poor gearing of my control systems and realize I need more progressive control and not just 'lots of it' like all my stunt models tended to have since the early 80's.

Stunt hanger and its knowledgeable participants have helped me improve my models and flying, together with flying in competition again after no stunt competitions for 20 years by with watching and observing others models and techniques (but still did scale C/L competitions but those are too infrequent here).

Hope Motorman finds his trimming solution out of all this too!

Regards Gerald

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2018, 10:54:05 PM »
I don't understand about shortening the lines and slowing the airspeed. Why would that make it pull less, because speed matters more than radius?

Real good line tension at the top of the hourglass so, I guess it could be slower.

Prop is my own design 3 blade tractor 14x6 but thinking about cutting it down to 13" because it seems to dampen the maneuvers but some of that might be nose weight.

I'm going to add some tail weight and shorten the push rod then see how it tracks when level.

The ARF comes with a bit of right rudder built in so I'll straighten that out then check the yaw. I think the outboard wheel is 1/2 ahead of the inboard wheel because of the line drag on the .018"s.

Shortening the lines will allow reducing the speed of the airplane but by maintaining the same or similar lap times your reaction time for maneuvers will remain similar.  The pull will be reduced because the speed of the airplane is the primary input for the force that creates the pull (Centrifugal force).  shortening the lines and reducing the speed will reduce the drag on the lines and reduce the bow in the lines caused by that drag.  The more line exposed to the air flow the higher the total drag!

Follow the basic trimming formula I laid out in the post above and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Is the airplane completely stable in level flight with no oscillatory motion or hunting?

Very large heavy props can cause even three blades can cause gyroscopic damping that can hinder maneuvering!

A 14 inch three blade bolly or other carbon prop will be pretty heavy.  How fast are you turning it.  Reducing the RPM
to reduce the speed will also reduce the gyro effect.

What is the current position of the center of the line exit relative to the CG?

Randy Cuberly
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Tucson, AZ

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2018, 12:56:55 AM »
Here is an example of the purely mass-related effects (not aerodynamics). It puts some typical numbers from this thread behind the principles that Randy described.

I tried to paste a screen capture, but haven't figured out how to do that--yet. Sorry.  Hopefully you can open the attachment.

Dave


Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2018, 02:29:40 AM »
Here is an example of the purely mass-related effects (not aerodynamics). It puts some typical numbers from this thread behind the principles that Randy described.

I tried to paste a screen capture, but haven't figured out how to do that--yet. Sorry.  Hopefully you can open the attachment.

Dave

Excellent Dave.  Thanks for posting that!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2018, 05:38:34 AM »
https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Level-83038-Set-Standard-VARI-PITCHTM/dp/B0007A29XY/ref=sr_1_28?ie=UTF8&qid=1525692487&sr=8-28&keywords=line+level
Get a set of these levels. Hang the plane by the leadouts and set the yellow one on the nose in the area of the motor crutch with the fractions pointing at the tail. If the edge of the bubble slams to the "tail" end adjust the leadouts forward until it touches the 3/8 mark. A good starting point. The picture shows how the levels indicate level. No more guess work.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline EddyR

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2018, 09:24:38 AM »
When Bill Rich and myself were flying the SV-11s and I think we were the first to use Randy design. We were using 63 ft eyelet to eyelet. We started with ST60s and later Bill went to the pipe. I flew a lot of them all on 63”.
Never had excessive pull. 13” cut to 12.5” for a prop on thr ST
Ed
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2018, 10:41:35 AM »
https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Level-83038-Set-Standard-VARI-PITCHTM/dp/B0007A29XY/ref=sr_1_28?ie=UTF8&qid=1525692487&sr=8-28&keywords=line+level
Get a set of these levels. Hang the plane by the leadouts and set the yellow one on the nose in the area of the motor crutch with the fractions pointing at the tail. If the edge of the bubble slams to the "tail" end adjust the leadouts forward until it touches the 3/8 mark. A good starting point. The picture shows how the levels indicate level. No more guess work.

Cool!

Let me add something that will probably put me back in the dog house.  After I get the engine giving me my desired lap time (I like a 5.2) wings level both ways I make my next set of trim adjustments above 45degrees.  Once the plane will do an overhead 8 and the 2nd corner of the hourglass with adequate tension (I define that as the plane staying out on the lines under full control without using any yoga positions)  and I can get there from up wind without it becoming a religious experience, I go back to what would be more classical trimming.  If your plane can't perform "overhead" or do the 1st & 3rd turns in the reverse, what is the point of wasting a whole lot of time making it perfect under 45?  Most if not all of the next round of adjustments will only improve both.  Since going to Morris controls, I have found more line tension a blessing more than a drawback.  If you mount the bellcrank right and treat your lines with respect, these planes will take more pull than you can.  If a plane is in trim to perform properly overhead it will pull more in level flight simply because it is flying faster (where is that old 4-2 when you need it most!).  Now if you can't take what extra pull there is I would suggest a smaller plane unless you can repeal the laws of physics.   The top fliers have learned how to deal with the pull.  If you want to enter that circle, that is part of the ante.  If not then have a blast flying a 50-55oz .46 size plane.  You are not going to find a properly trimmed 69oz plane that doesn't pull especially if you are at the upper limit of proper wing loading which really affects overhead trim.

Good Luck
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 12:45:12 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2018, 12:02:37 PM »
You should  be using about 12 to 12.5  diameter  if your using a  3 blade, many planes  that size (676 sq in )  are using my 3 blade  11 x5
also hang it by the leadouts indoors  look very careful and  set the  lead out guide where  you just barely have  about 1to 2   degree down, hanging  toward the  nose, then start trimming  from there  as you get flights on it

Randy

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2018, 08:25:41 PM »
I don't understand about shortening the lines and slowing the airspeed. Why would that make it pull less, because speed matters more than radius?

That's a good way of putting it, I think.  Randy got me thinking about this.  Yep, for a given lap time, line tension (from the inertial effect) is proportional to line length.  Dave gave the formulas.

Prop is my own design 3 blade tractor 14x6...

That should give you some respite from line tension on some corners.
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2018, 11:20:03 AM »
Maybe I've missed the obvious first questions and their answers, but just in case...

What engine/motor are you running and what RPM have you been turning that 14 X 6 (14 X 6, really?) three bladed paddle wheel?

Ted

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2018, 11:49:36 AM »
Maybe I've missed the obvious first questions and their answers, but just in case...

What engine/motor are you running and what RPM have you been turning that 14 X 6 (14 X 6, really?) three bladed paddle wheel?

  I think there is no doubt that a lot of these engines, 61 and up, wouldn't have much problem running that kind of props at the RPM required. 14-4 3-blade is not out of the question (from an engine standpoint) for a 75/76. I have run 13-4 3-blade just like David's on my weenie little 61.  Al said something about a 16-6 2-blade on the Jett 76, I think. I ran a 13-6 and even a 13-5 Rev-up on my ST46, didn't melt or blow up. A 75 is 65% more displacement, a 13-6 rev up is a break-in prop.

    If the contest were just about how big a prop you could spin, you could do some amazing things with current engines. If, on the other hand, you were interested in winning *stunt contests*, then you might want to make a different decision.

    Brett

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2018, 12:30:56 PM »

Snip

    If the contest were just about how big a prop you could spin, you could do some amazing things with current engines. If, on the other hand, you were interested in winning *stunt contests*, then you might want to make a different decision.

    Brett

And therein lies the point of my inquiry (and the likely source of his sore elbow).  We still don't know what he's turning the propeller with although I'm guessing it has a whiff of Tesla air about it.  My off the cuff likely suggestion would be that he experiment with some more "aircraft appropriate" props such as the variety of moderate diameter lower pitch APCs, etc. and refine the RPMs appropriately to get it in the ballpark of what he's after.  Any subsequent home crafted props could then be informed/based on those tests.  I just don't think another 14 X 6 is likely to be the result


Ted

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2018, 02:29:57 PM »
How do you know if you've gone to far with this? It flys nose up when inverted right?

Bear in mind that you may have to re-set the neutral position of your handle after adding the down elevator.  What you are doing here is adjusting the relative neutral of the flaps and elevator.

If you go too far the first clue will be that it turns much tighter in one direction than the other.  In this case probably insides will become a bit more sensitive. 

Once you get a comfortable neutral position with the handle...IE.. no significant weight required on the handle in either direction then adjust the overall sensitivity of the handle.  If it turns a little tighter in one direction than the other adjust the handle bias toward the least sensitive side.  Go easy and do a lot of maneuvers before you change things to allow your hand and mind to adjust to each change.  When first making a change your hand and eye may think something is wrong before they adjust to the new position.  Give it a little time and you will be able to tell if it is wrong...then make more adjustments!   I hope you don't fly with wrist bias.  If you do all bets are off!

Also you need to increase the RPM to get a little closer to 5.3 or so sec laps.
5.6 is slow enough that it will begin to alter your timing of maneuvers and that is something else you will have to adjust to.  Do that later after you get the airplane flying like you want it!

Also you mention it being too windy.  I wouldn't try trimming in extreme wind it's too difficult to tell what the effects of the changes are!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2018, 03:35:59 PM »
From Motorman's new setup, I get about a 17% reduction in centrifugal force. That should be a considerable (noticeable!) improvement. A follow-up to Howard's comment about "relief in the corners." I assume you meant that the gyroscopic forces in certain corners would cause inboard yaw, reducing line tension? And, I'm guessing that what caught your attention was the large prop?

So here's my thinking:  running a high pitch prop would allow (require) a lower operating rpm than a lower pitch prop to achieve a selected airspeed. The lower rpm results in reduced gyroscopic moments. I am not sure how the 2 vs. 3 blade tradeoff would work out. Perhaps others have already done the numbers? The smaller diameter of the three blade reduces the inertia where it counts the most, but overall, I doubt that the 3-blader is lighter or has less inertia than the 2-blade prop it replaces. Finally, I wonder if a stunt prop isn't really "black aluminum."  The weight is driven by the needed shape factors (and maybe ground handling, ie. "flipping" durability) and not stress. In that case certain wood types used in props would have less inertia for the comparable shape, therefore less inertia, and reduced gyroscopic disturbances, and yet still be structurally adequate. But since 3-blade wood props are a lot of work, and many seem to prefer them (perhaps only for their ground clearance and vertical CG management?) they end up with composites as a default.

Is this your thinking behind your prior comment Howard?

Thanks to all for sharing your insights,

Dave

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2018, 04:31:32 PM »
And therein lies the point of my inquiry (and the likely source of his sore elbow).  We still don't know what he's turning the propeller with although I'm guessing it has a whiff of Tesla air about it.  My off the cuff likely suggestion would be that he experiment with some more "aircraft appropriate" props such as the variety of moderate diameter lower pitch APCs, etc. and refine the RPMs appropriately to get it in the ballpark of what he's after.  Any subsequent home crafted props could then be informed/based on those tests.  I just don't think another 14 X 6 is likely to be the result


Ted

Ted, I don't know why he just doesn't answer you but I'm reasonably sure this is a big electric motor!  I would guess, turning in the low to mid 7000 Rpm range!  Kinda "European", I guess!  They seem to prefer large wood props in the 14 to 15 inch diameter (two blades however) on the big IC engines!  Their large wood props however are very light and of course that reduces the Gyro effect!

Apparently Randy Smith got through to him and he has cut the prop to 11.5 inches (or there abouts).  That should solve a lot of the previous problems.

I'm just trying to get him to follow a reasonable trim regimen that will get him on track.  Can't do much more by "remote control"! 
For the most part I was just trying to show him that shortening the lines and slowing down would stop his shoulder from hurting!!   LL~ LL~ LL~

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2018, 05:51:53 PM »
70'  5.3 sec a lap. Plane is an ARF SV11

Motorman,

We could use a bit more precise/complete data so we can talk apples and apples.

I'm guessing you mean 70' from the handle to the center of the airplane...not 70' line length as Randy asked?  Correct?

Is the SV11 powered by an electric motor or an IC engine?  If electric was that 69oz weight with or without the battery installed?

Is the 14 X 6 prop right hand (like an I.C.) or left hand ("Pusher") rotation?

What was the launch RPM you were using when the prop was still 14" diameter and you were getting those 5.3 sec laps?

Thanks

Ted

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2018, 08:06:58 PM »
70' from prop shaft to handle center line, now cut to 65' prop to handle

It seems when you mention electric power you lose allot of contributors to your thread so, all apologies It's a Cobra 3520/14 with a 6s 2800mah battery.

69oz ready to fly with the battery

Prop was 14x6 three blade tractor turning 9500 on 70' did 5.3 sec/lap, now cut down in diameter to 12.5x6 and turning 8570 on 65' does 5.6 sec/lap.

I shortened the elevator push rod 2 turns from the zero setting and made a longer clip for the down line so, just waiting to fly it.

Thanks,
Motorman 8)

Sounds like you should be getting in the "ballpark" now.  You may actually want to up the Rpm a bit to make the lap times closer to 5.2. but that remains to be seen and admittedly there is some personal preference involved as long as the airplane will fly crisply at that lap time!  I suggest though that at 69 oz the SV11 will want to be just a little faster to give good corners etc!

My SV11 with a OS 55AX at 62 oz (empty tank) flew best at about 5.2 second laps on 65 ft center to center lines..  However of course I fly at somewhat higher altitude than you.  I did fly it in CA several times however and the setup was the same and performance was very good.  I flew in on a 13-4.25 thin 2 blade carbon under cambered Mejlik prop that unfortunately is not available anymore.  Launch RPM was about 9600 RPM.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2018, 08:20:31 PM »
Hello Motorman
Well that should be around 64oz when the glow conversion is applied !  ;) (see Bob Hunts post on weights).
Keen to hear the results of a flight with the changes.
Regards Gerald  #^

PS pity electrics still seem to divide some flyers

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2018, 09:04:04 PM »
Hello Motorman
Well that should be around 64oz when the glow conversion is applied !  ;) (see Bob Hunts post on weights).
Keen to hear the results of a flight with the changes.
Regards Gerald  #^

PS pity electrics still seem to divide some flyers

I don't think the electrics divide "real Fliers".  I think most of what goes on is just Humor and fun razzing!

I think the top fliers will be the top fliers no matter what they fly!  While trimming may differ a bit between electric and IC the fundamentals are still the same.  I believe some of what occurred initially was because of "pusher props" causing somewhat different trimming requirements.

Just my take!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2018, 11:32:06 AM »
I don't think the electrics divide "real Fliers".  I think most of what goes on is just Humor and fun razzing!

I think the top fliers will be the top fliers no matter what they fly!  While trimming may differ a bit between electric and IC the fundamentals are still the same.  I believe some of what occurred initially was because of "pusher props" causing somewhat different trimming requirements.

Just my take!

Randy Cuberly

I agree with Randy.  I perfectly understand the popularity of the electric systems for both consistency and flying site retention.  Both very valuable considerations. I'm just too old and out of touch (very little flying the last few years) to justify getting up to speed.

I've a busy day ahead of me but have a few comments I'll try to get to later in response to the data Motorman provided.

ONE BIG QUESTION before I leave however.  Motorman said he added a longer clip to his handle down line in response to Randy's suggestions re flap/elevator neutral and handle angle, etc.  It would be important to know if Motorman has and uses one of the several different types of fully adjustable handles available today.  If not I urge him to do so as the ability to adjust control sensitivity, neutral setting, and overhang is about 50% of achieving a friendly balance between a properly trimmed aircraft and its driver.  Both ends of the long wires need to be populated by "happy" operators!

Ted Fancher

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2018, 03:01:12 PM »
I'm glad that MM brought up this thread as I'm learning quite a bit that I can apply to my new Shark45. I'm going to try a bigger prop with less pitch. Also will shorten my lines.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2018, 04:10:59 PM »
I'm glad that MM brought up this thread as I'm learning quite a bit that I can apply to my new Shark45. I'm going to try a bigger prop with less pitch. Also will shorten my lines.

Yeah, you were next in line.  That was obvious from your posting.  Let us know how it's going.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2018, 12:22:06 AM »
Motorman,

Glad you are making progress--but very sorry to hear about the hunting problem. Of all the trim issues I have faced on planes, and many of them as a Rent-A-Pilot for racing, hunting is the hardest to track down and solve. Here are a few ideas with the hope that others can add to the list along with debugging info and fixes.

1.   The CG is too far back. If too far back, the tail downforce is less for the static flight condition. You may then get into the threshold issue, likely caused by any turbulence. See number 5, below.

2.   Sticky and draggy controls. Everyone's opinions differ on how "free" is really free. On a stunter with big surfaces, if you simply move the control surface to neutral (no lines connected) and let go, they ought to droop of their own weight. If the hunting gets worse once the engine quits it is either tail heavy or the controls are too sticky. Had to fix this on a foam wing job where the pushrod was rubbing on the inside. The bellcrank bushing was not a close fit, so on the ground the controls seemed free. In the air I suspected they were not. To prove this, we tried moving the controls with flight tension on the lines. It was instantly clear what the problem was. On the other hand, I have seen sport stunters that had horribly stiff controls with a lot of spring rate in them that did not hunt. Generally, they were heavy for their size, probably had good line tension and were mostly flying round maneuvers well and would never fly great corners, so a little wobble at the top was likely no matter what.

3.   Notchy control action.  For some reason, probably tweaking controls after assembly to fix some other presumed fault, the controls get a slight "catch" near neutral. Same bad effect as number 1, above. I have a plane that I built that is like this now, and while it did not cause the hunting it was born with, it can't be helping, either. I probably won't fly it again until I cut into it to find out what was damaged in the attempt to reverse the controls at the flap horn.

4.   Control surface gaps. I'm guessing this could occur, but have not experienced a miraculous resolution of hunting by taping hinge lines--yet. The plane I would like to fix has the wrong geometry to tape. Hopefully, I will remember on future planes to shape the flaps and elevators to allow taping.

5.   Poor alignment (decalage). This is the ever-popular topic of adding just a hair of positive AOA to the stabilizer to avoid hunting. The range of discussion on this one has been inspiring and the champions vocal!  I think it also pre-supposes that the layout of the plane is standard; ie. the wing is below the thrust line, the tail is well above. Otherwise this one makes no sense. I think it is really an attempt to load up the tail in level, upright flight so that it never goes thru a lower downloading threshold. I have no idea what download threshold would be, except to guess that it has to be larger than any transient from turbulence. What is less clear to me is why this would still work well when inverted. I’m not saying it doesn’t, I’m just saying that the tail is more likely to be exposed to more downwash. Maybe that is why it works inverted, too. This problem can be very hard to measure. I am less than convinced that it can be reliably identified with the “incidence meters” on the market. I further wonder if adding reflex via the flaps essentially isn’t proof of this effect. (Note that the thrustline would need to drooped to avoid introducing a new issue.)  So the fix for evening up inside vs. outside by drooping the flaps might actually make any tendency to hunt more noticeable?

6.   Engine thrust line. Seems like too much up or down would cause the tail to be loaded differently and cause hunting trouble upright (upthrust) or inverted (downthrust). This one is usually pretty easy to alter for a flight check even on an inverted engine installation.

7.   Controls are too tight and don’t have enough “slop” in them. I have issues with this classic “cause.” If the controls are not actually sticky, then the only merit to this as a cause of hunting would seem to be that your hand is not steady enough. On a fast racing plane, I can see the plane changing line as you run and bump in the middle. That’s not hunting. But at slow walking speed on a stunt plane seeing the plane either wobbling around not synched up to your steps or worse, making a slow rise and fall, say twice in each lap, has seemingly got nothing to due with inaccurate hand motion, which adding slop to the controls would seemingly address.

8.   Control surface are too effective and/or too efficient. The supposition is that the elevators ought to be thinner than the stabilizer to “bury” them in the boundary layer and reduce effectiveness right around neutral. So even if your hand is not completely steady, and your controls are “too tight,” the aero geometry desensitizes this. Some variations of this thinking include not tapering the TE of the elevators too thin, because then they are too clean and too efficient and even very minor motion shows up as significant change in tail downforce and hunting. This argument then also encompasses whether the TE of the elevator should be squared off or fully radiused. I think some guys also favored rubbing chicken guts and feathers on the TE…but I may have not heard that correctly since that guy was yelling really, really loud to get his point across….

9.   Twisty flaps and elevators. Not sure how this works, but if you’ve tried fixing everything else and it didn’t work, this would be a tech-sounding scapegoat, right?

10.   Others?

I would love to hear some feedback from our “master trimmers” on this problem. I know I have one plane right now that has given me grief.

And I sure hope you can trim out your hunting problem and get on with the fun.

Dave

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2018, 06:08:50 PM »
I believe that most "hunting problems" that are not simply the result of the CG being too far back are caused by sticky controls.

I believe (and I'm not alone) that control systems on stunt planes need to be very, very, free!  When electrics first came into stunt it became obvious that the control systems on the electrics were typically not free enough to tolerate the loss of engine vibration that is ever present on I.C powered aircraft.  The normal engine vibration of an IC airplane tends to help a lot and keep small mechanical interfaces like bushings etc "alive" and are likely to be significantly less draggy when the engine is running!  That may have lulled a lot of folks into thinking that their controls were free enough as long as they were smooth and easy to move.  Probably were with some vibes added.  However electrics proved that they were not in fact very free when in that condition.

Controls on a stunt plane must be free enough to fall a significant amount under their own weight when activated and released.  If they aren't the airplane will hunt unless it's nose heavy!  If it's nose heavy it will probably be stable in level flight but give very poor tracking in maneuvers. especially in windy conditions!

A good non-technical test I use, given to me by none other than Mr. R. J Whitely "Hisself", for free controls is to sit the airplane on the ground attach the lines and handle and pick up the handle to about waist high, allowing the lines to droop just shy of hitting the ground ( weight on lines is most of what tension there is on the control system), hold the handle in your little finger and forefinger and rapidly "twiddle" the handle up and down (Hey I said it was non-technical).  If the flaps and elevator will not follow that rapid motion with just the weight of the lines, the controls are not free enough.  Try it!

If your controls are not that "free", do whatever is necessary to get them that way...you'll be amazed what a difference it makes in being able to trim an fly a stunt plane!

Personally I stopped using ball links long ago because while they can work that well it's nearly impossible to get them free enough!  Especially in cold weather!  Even if they are very free on installation they often tend to tighten up after some thermal cycling of the control system.  Plastic "memory" and "cold flow" are often the reason!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2018, 03:15:56 PM »
Randy,
Interesting thoughts on hunting. Hadn't thought about it, but I guess electric propulsion is smooth enough that it would fail to provide dithering. Maybe Motorman will find that is a factor in his specific situation. The Whitely "line sag test" is also interesting. I will have to test that one out on my "hunter."

Thanks,

Dave "McSlow"

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2018, 04:38:45 PM »
Randy,
Interesting thoughts on hunting. Hadn't thought about it, but I guess electric propulsion is smooth enough that it would fail to provide dithering. Maybe Motorman will find that is a factor in his specific situation. The Whitely "line sag test" is also interesting. I will have to test that one out on my "hunter."

Thanks,

Dave "McSlow"

We don't schedule any contests during hunting season so it is not much of a problem here.

I am not sure I agree that tighter controls are that much of a contributing factor.  I just replaced "fall down" lose old fashion controls with a Tom Morris set and the plane hunts less.  Controls are smooth but the balljoint friction keeps them from falling like they did before.  If the plane is trimmed to fly straight with controls neutral then I would think a small amount of friction would be a good thing.  IMHO trimmed planes don't hunt much unless they are tail heavy or pilot light and most of that is reaction to moving air.
AMA 15382
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2018, 05:22:39 PM »
We don't schedule any contests during hunting season so it is not much of a problem here.

I am not sure I agree that tighter controls are that much of a contributing factor.  I just replaced "fall down" lose old fashion controls with a Tom Morris set and the plane hunts less.  Controls are smooth but the balljoint friction keeps them from falling like they did before.  If the plane is trimmed to fly straight with controls neutral then I would think a small amount of friction would be a good thing.  IMHO trimmed planes don't hunt much unless they are tail heavy or pilot light and most of that is reaction to moving air.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion even if it flies in the face of facts and is simply wrong... LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

Randy Cuberly
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2018, 06:24:22 PM »
Well, you're entitled to your opinion even if it flies in the face of facts and is simply wrong... LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

Randy Cuberly

So now it is now a proven fact that friction from ball joints causes hunting?  Then why do so few properly trimmed planes with the Morris system hunt and why do so many of our top designer/fliers use them (ball joints)?  What if the little bit of friction in the ball joints is just enough to dampen the input caused by the slightly unequal pressure on the lines from the constant change in wind direction?  Maybe they actually assist in stopping hunting.

Ken
AMA 15382
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2018, 06:44:15 PM »
We don't schedule any contests during hunting season so it is not much of a problem here.

I am not sure I agree that tighter controls are that much of a contributing factor.  I just replaced "fall down" lose old fashion controls with a Tom Morris set and the plane hunts less.  Controls are smooth but the balljoint friction keeps them from falling like they did before.  If the plane is trimmed to fly straight with controls neutral then I would think a small amount of friction would be a good thing.  IMHO trimmed planes don't hunt much unless they are tail heavy or pilot light and most of that is reaction to moving air.

So now it is now a proven fact that friction from ball joints causes hunting?  Then why do so few properly trimmed planes with the Morris system hunt and why do so many of our top designer/fliers use them (ball joints)?  What if the little bit of friction in the ball joints is just enough to dampen the input caused by the slightly unequal pressure on the lines from the constant change in wind direction?  Maybe they actually assist in stopping hunting.

I don't fly electric, but I've been following those who do, both on this forum and in person.

Yes, tight controls do cause hunting.  And freeing them up fixes it.  And controls with slop cause hunting.  And tightening them up fixes it.  If you go too far in either direction, you find unhappiness.

I'm also (at least from time to time) a professional control systems designer.  Too much friction causes hunting (although if you want to sound hoity-toity you'll call it a limit cycle).  Too much slop causes hunting.  And it's pretty much impossible to design a control law to overcome such problems.  And in some machines, friction is overcome with things that vibrate, or spin, or otherwise break the mechanical friction up into something that's easier to deal with.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2018, 07:51:14 PM »
Hello
Re: 'Hunting' the explanations given are very insightful especially as I am good at building models with up or down thrust or incidence, also good at building in sticky controls and guilty of flying worn out old models that are are sloppy in the control department and can say yes . Also explains why I sometimes have to step back with my little electric stunter to 'move' the controls at times. Thanks  :)

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2018, 12:13:32 AM »
I forgot to add one cause of hunting that I solved on a particularly recalcitrant Goodyear racing plane made from the SIG Buster kit. It is a happily resolved case, and a good one to think about if you're having issues.

10. Transient separated airflow caused by poor shapes.   My SIG Buster has been a real workhorse now for years, but it hunted badly for a long time. I tried all the usual fixes like shifting the CG forward (and then aft), bigger HS/elevators, tighter pushrod guide, engine thrust line, and so on. The controls were always quite free. None of this had a positive effect. So I sawed off the ¼” thick wing and replaced it with a 3/8” thick semi-symmetric wing. This actually helped some. Note that there are actually three different things happening, or potentially happening, at the same time with this rework. The airfoil is different; the wing/tail decalage may be different (I tried to keep the zero lift line parallel to everything); and ….? This improvement was not simply a fluke. My racing partner liked what he saw and he scabbed another ¼” plank on the bottom of the wing of his Buster and reshaped the airfoil. While his Buster never hunted quite as bad as mine, his improved also. But I still was not happy. What made a major improvement was putting a much larger radius on the front edges of the cheek cowl. This was a clean experiment, since no other changes were made at the same time. Note that this cheek cowl was a modification of the SIG kit added to stiffen the nose for improved engine performance. The basic kit would never have had this issue to begin with. This aero buffeting source is one reason I am not a fan of bluff features such as the canopy on the Nobler. Another feature that makes me leery is a large cooling inlet with an exhaust ramp that has a large angle. This creates a large turbulence zone and may blanket any surface that is in its wake.  What you want is something closer to parallel flow ejection. Go look at cowl exhausts for light planes to get some ideas. A particular feature on a particular plane may not affect things at all—but when you go fly it is trial by error. In a kit you presume your risk is low because any problems should have been solved by then. But the design may not have much margin relative to stability (freedom from hunting) and the mods you make might not be aerodynamic improvements.

Other comments on the discussion so far:
There is some pretty good anecdotal data from some pretty experienced guys that putting slop into the elevator controls tamed hunting. What is hard to confirm is that the controls were equally free before the slop was added. If the controls were slop-free but had significant friction initially, then they might be attributing the improvement to “slop” and not “sufficiently friction free.” So the experiment is not really conclusive or complete.

Relative to the discussion on control friction and ball links and rod ends:  If the plane has plenty of margin on controls performance, then a bit of friction shouldn’t be noticed. A good, straight design with no other likely causes may be immune. Now compare size. If you used the same exact ball link setup on a Ringmaster at 28 oz. running slow lap times, the line tension needed to overcome friction is a much larger percentage of available tension than on a 60 oz. ship running ProStunt everything and using the exact same controls. The use of smaller bellcranks on the smaller plane makes this even worse. So if (put your favorite ProStunt name here) uses XYZ controls, they must be the best, and better than you need for your 28 oz. Ringmaster—well, maybe not. What did the same ProStunt guy use on his Ringmaster?

Something getting lost here is the stick/slip action that is likely occurring as one root cause. It takes a certain control input force to overcome the stiction. (Also known as breakaway friction, which is always higher than running friction.) When the contacting surfaces break free the friction goes down. It is highly non-linear. So the input from the pilot goes past what he intended, and he immediately has to try to compensate in the other direction. No pilot can do this. (Think of our setup as “servo between the ears” which is pretty accurate. But because of this, the bandwidth of the system is really low!) As Tim alluded, even creating software to simulate this plant response is problematic because it has so many dependencies like temperature, vibration level, humidity (nylon is hygroscopic), whether the rubbing surfaces are “contaminated” by engine exhaust or brand new clean, and so on. So the solution is mechanical, not in software, as was the root cause—you have to reduce the stiction. I have had pretty good luck with using a kerosene/turbine oil mix on ball links and rod ends. You can always try it to see if it helps. I would not agree that “…a little bit of friction…is [adding] damping and…assists in stopping hunting.” If there is no control slop, then all friction can be doing is turning the pilot into a bang-bang controller with the range large enough to visibly see the result of the plane going up and down. This overshoot characteristic is similar to the heater control in your house—well, at least in my old house. If you don’t want to alternate between being hot and being cold, then you have to reduce the deadband—and you can’t unless you can measure smaller temperature differences and you can make smaller adjustments. Just like our pilot with servo between the ears. The only way he can make smaller control inputs is to have less friction in the controls and thereby reduce overshoot.

Note that the sticky controls are on a differ leg of the root cause tree than the aerodynamic disturbances than might be root cause like my Buster example. I spent a lot of time “improving” the controls and it had no effect, because the controls weren’t the cause.

Relative to Ken’s replacement of controls and his experience that hunting was reduced (eliminated?) even though the ball links (rod ends?) may not have allowed a “free dropping” low friction condition:  note that you like changed multiple relevant things at the same time, whether you intended to do this or not. With a new pushrod or horns or bellcrank the rigging has been changed. Just as a minimum example, if it was a 4-40 ball link, your increment to get things to line up is one full turn. That is .025” or an angle of about 1.4 degrees for a 1" horn height, and would scale down with increasing horn height. This sounds small and is difficult to measure without fixtures. But for reference, some of the ProStunt guys argued a lot about using 0.5 degrees positive on the stab during build. Not 1 degree or 1-1/2 degrees.  So even if you did not intend to change the rigging, there is a limit on your ability to measure, and the prior and new setups won’t be the same. It may be very close if both measurements were highly precise. Then the question is how much margin did the plane have to this adjustment? If a lot of margin, then it suggests this is not an additional cause. So we reject it out of hand, or discount it. But it is real and in some cases of hunting, maybe it is the cause.

I don’t understand Ken’s comment about one cause being “pilot light.” Can you explain so we understand your thoughts on this?

I hope we get some good reports from the Motorman. I’m looking forward to hearing whatever fix he comes up with! Sending some good weather your way for testing….

Dave Hull
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 03:48:36 PM by Dave Hull »

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Unnecessary Pull
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2018, 07:23:18 AM »
I forgot to add one cause of hunting that I solved on a particularly recalcitrant Goodyear racing plane made from the SIG Buster kit. It is a happily resolved case, and a good one to think about if you're having issues.

10. Transient separated airflow caused by poor shapes.   My SIG Buster has been a real workhorse now for years, but it hunted badly for a long time. I tried all the usual fixes like shifting the CG forward (and then aft), bigger HS/elevators, tighter pushrod guide, engine thrust line, and so on. The controls were always quite free. None of this had a positive effect. So I sawed off the ¼” thick wing and replaced it with a 3/8” thick semi-symmetric wing. This actually helped some. Note that there are actually three different things happening, or potentially happening, at the same time with this rework. The airfoil is different; the wing/tail decalage may be different (I tried to keep the zero lift line parallel to everything); and ….? This improvement was not simply a fluke. My racing partner liked what he saw and he scabbed another ¼” plank on the bottom of the wing of his Buster and reshaped the airfoil. While his Buster never hunted quite as bad as mine, his improved also. But I still was not happy. What made a major improvement was putting a much larger radius on the front edges of the cheek cowl. This was a clean experiment, since no other changes were made at the same time. This is one reason I am not a fan of bluff features such as the canopy on the Nobler. Another feature that makes me leery is a large cooling inlet with an exhaust ramp that has a large angle. This creates a large turbulence zone and may blanket any surface that is in its wake.  What you want is something closer to parallel flow ejection. Go look at cowl exhausts for light planes to get some ideas. A particular feature on a particular plane may not affect things at all—but when you go fly it is trial by error. In a kit you presume your risk is low because any problems should have been solved by then. But the design may not have much margin relative to stability (freedom from hunting) and the mods you make might not be aerodynamic improvements.

Other comments on the discussion so far:
There is some pretty good anecdotal data from some pretty experienced guys that putting slop into the elevator controls tamed hunting. What is hard to confirm is that the controls were equally free before the slop was added. If the controls were slop-free but had significant friction initially, then they might be attributing the improvement to “slop” and not “sufficiently friction free.” So the experiment is not really conclusive or complete.

Relative to the discussion on control friction and ball links and rod ends:  If the plane has plenty of margin on controls performance, then a bit of friction shouldn’t be noticed. A good, straight design with no other likely causes may be immune. Now compare size. If you used the same exact ball link setup on a Ringmaster at 28 oz. running slow lap times, the line tension needed to overcome friction is a much larger percentage of available tension than on a 60 oz. ship running ProStunt everything and using the exact same controls. The use of smaller bellcranks on the smaller plane makes this even worse. So if (put your favorite ProStunt name here) uses XYZ controls, they must be the best, and better than you need for your 28 oz. Ringmaster—well, maybe not. What did the same ProStunt guy use on his Ringmaster?

Something getting lost here is the stick/slip action that is likely occurring as one root cause. It takes a certain control input force to overcome the stiction. (Also known as breakaway friction, which is always higher than running friction.) When the contacting surfaces break free the friction goes down. It is highly non-linear. So the input from the pilot goes past what he intended, and he immediately has to try to compensate in the other direction. No pilot can do this. (Think of our setup as “servo between the ears” which is pretty accurate. But because of this, the bandwidth of the system is really low!) As Tim alluded, even creating software to simulate this plant response is problematic because it has so many dependencies like temperature, vibration level, humidity (nylon is hygroscopic), whether the rubbing surfaces are “contaminated” by engine exhaust or brand new clean, and so on. So the solution is mechanical, not in software, as was the root cause—you have to reduce the stiction. I have had pretty good luck with using a kerosene/turbine oil mix on ball links and rod ends. You can always try it to see if it helps. I would not agree that “…a little bit of friction…is [adding] damping and…assists in stopping hunting.” If there is no control slop, then all friction can be doing is turning the pilot into a bang-bang controller with the range large enough to visibly see the result of the plane going up and down. This overshoot characteristic is similar to the heater control in your house—well, at least in my old house. If you don’t want to alternate between being hot and being cold, then you have to reduce the deadband—and you can’t unless you can measure smaller temperature differences and you can make smaller adjustments. Just like our pilot with servo between the ears. The only way he can make smaller control inputs is to have less friction in the controls and thereby reduce overshoot.

Note that the sticky controls are on a differ leg of the root cause tree than the aerodynamic disturbances than might be root cause like my Buster example. I spent a lot of time “improving” the controls and it had no effect, because the controls weren’t the cause.

Relative to Ken’s replacement of controls and his experience that hunting was reduced (eliminated?) even though the ball links (rod ends?) may not have allowed a “free dropping” low friction condition:  note that you like changed multiple relevant things at the same time, whether you intended to do this or not. With a new pushrod or horns or bellcrank the rigging has been changed. Just as a minimum example, if it was a 4-40 ball link, your increment to get things to line up is one full turn. That is .025” or an angle of about 1.4 degrees. This sounds small and is difficult to measure without fixtures. But for reference, some of the ProStunt guys argued a lot about using 0.5 degrees positive on the stab during build. Not 1 degree or 1-1/2 degrees.  So even if you did not intend to change the rigging, there is a limit on your ability to measure, and the prior and new setups won’t be the same. It may be very close if both measurements were highly precise. Then the question is how much margin did the plane have to this adjustment? If a lot of margin, then it suggests this is not an additional cause. So we reject it out of hand, or discount it. But it is real and in some cases of hunting, maybe it is the cause.

I don’t understand Ken’s comment about one cause being “pilot light.” Can you explain so we understand your thoughts on this?

I hope we get some good reports from the Motorman. I’m looking forward to hearing whatever fix he comes up with! Sending some good weather your way for testing….

Dave Hull

Dave - I want to thank you for your post and explain a few things.  First to a certain degree I was reacting/over reacting to the assertion that ball links were a major cause of hunting.  I am convinced they are not a major cause but I do agree that they they do have some friction to overcome.  Every time you trim a new plane you make tradeoff's.  IMHO the advantages of ball links in a stunt plane far outweigh the disadvantages.

The comment "Pilot Light" was perhaps a poor choice of words.  From my own experience a lot of "hunting" is really the pilot trying to correct for things that are beyond their control and doing it too late after the plane has recovered on it's own.  The bumps you get from wind and wake are primary examples.  You create a porpoise effect and call it hunting when it is really pilot error or inattention.
If you are experienced enough to fly a bit tail heavy it is very easy to not pay attention to level flight as much as you should and get some hunting.  You think it is the plane when it is really you.

My comment on the lines was to sloppily point out that there are so many opposing forces happening when we fly stunt that point to one as "the cause" is to overlook the others.  I could argue that the same friction you have to overcome in the ball links is present in the flap elevator hinges but that would be just as ridiculous.

Thanks for your post - I had never given aerodynamic design much consideration, especially the effect of exhaust direction.

Ken
AMA 15382
If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
USAF 1968-1974 TAC


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