Unlimited Super "52" rules

[Dennis Toth]

Guys,
I've talked this over with several people and put together a basic set of rules for the Unlimited Super "52" event. This event is meant to first and foremost to be fun, have freedom to modify favorite OTS or classic models, use some simple ships that wouldn't be competitive in the regular PA events. Lastly, it a physically easier pattern to fly to fly. So here's the basic rules:

Unlimited Super “52” Proposed Rules
1.   All current AMA control line safety rules shall apply.
2.   All current AMA control line pull test and line specifications (max 70 ft) shall apply.
3.   The Old Time Stunt “1952” stunt pattern maneuvers shall be used as described in the PAMPA OTS rules.
4.   Models - Can be full fuse or profile of any size, flapped or un-flapped. Models may be scratch built, kit built, ARF's, ARC's, or any combination. Engine or motor size of any size allowable under current AMA rules may be used. There are no restriction on exhaust silencer (open face can be used except as may be required by the contest director) or electric power. Construction/finishing materials are not limited. All models will have landing gear of at least one wheel. Uni-wheel, taildragger, and trike style gear are all acceptable. All Models will R.O.G.
5.   Flight - The standard 1952 stunt pattern (including the 8 minute time limit) is to be flown and judged in the same manner as the regular OTS event. 3 attempts for 2 official flights. Highest flight score will be used to determine the placing of the winner.
6.    Scoring- Standard OTS scoring using either the PAMPA or GSCB scoring system without any bonus for non-flap or ignition engines.
7.   Appearance/BOM - No points will be given for appearance in this event. No builder of the model (BOM) rule.
8.   Restriction – One plane, one flyer.
9.   Multi Class Option – multiply classes of flyers (beginner, intermediate, advanced, expert) can be flown within the overall flight order and places awarded as well as overall first, second and third place winners.

Not sure where we are going to fly this event yet but this is the first step. If anyone wants to put one on go for it.

Best,         DennisT

[peabody]

Cool!

[proparc]

Nice to see someone trying to come up with ways to improve our sport and move it forwards,(or backwards-52 lol).  Thanks Dennis.

[Dan McEntee]

   Maybe it's just me, but what you basically have is OTS with any airplane, and then you more or less have Beginner stunt. I like flying OTS, and the challenge of building and flying the old airplanes and engines. But in reality, in my opinion, the Beginner Pattern is probably on par or maybe a little more difficult than the 1952 pattern.
   The rule number four has no limitations or restrictions on models, so I'm assuming it can be any airplane. If people sign up and want to fly it, more power to ya. But with the rules as presented here, I just have to ask, "Why?" Unless you forgot to put in that it must be an Old Time Stunt legal design.
    Just askin',
    Dan McEntee

[Dennis Toth]

Dan,
There is no mistake in rule 4, this is open to all designs, power types and flyers. The PA pattern has a number of events that allow freedom of design. OTS is restricted to the ship as designed. There are some great looking ships that aren't flown because of very large inboard wings or short tail moments that makes it flop around or touchy that many fliers loved these designs and back in the day made changes that you can't fly it in OTS. There are lots of ships post 52 that are non-flapped, bipes, profiles, etc. that could now be flown and be competitive. The 52 pattern doesn't offer any advantage to or disadvantage for high power so you could fly them if you want but the non-flaps are also competitive with them. You could also use these rules for simple "log" 1/2A's, all kinds of fun. For others fliers, they like flying OTS but not the PA pattern, trekking out to a contest for one event is sometimes a pain.

The OTS 52 pattern is fun to fly, reasonably challenging to fly well. For some fliers the PA pattern is a problem having to fly 6 laps inverted then having to stop and do the outside loops. In the 52 pattern you do 2 laps inverted then flip upright get level then do the eights, it gives you a lap or so to settle down. This is not meant to be difficult just easy to participate, fun. I think it is going to be interesting and we'll see how it pans out.

Best,       DennisT

[Steve Helmick]

I was going to ask "Why?" also. However, OTS entry has been somewhat lacking 'round these parts, so I thought maybe it would perk up some interest, once folks learned the OTS pattern, they might build an OTS plane. The planes ARE cool, in part because they're great for flying off grass in parks and skoolyards, but also because they are generally simple enough to be fun to build and not gruesome to finish in a reasonable sort of way.

But as an alternative, how about just having "Beginner OTS", in which you'd allow any airplane, and use the OTS pattern, with no BOM, no AP's, and no engine/flap bonuses or penalties? You could allow anybody that's never flown OTS before, or just allow Beginners, or allow Beginner/Int. fliers, etc. Might be a perfect thing for a "Fun-Fly" sort of thing, too? Steve

[Howard Rush]

And stunt would go the way of racing and combat: more events and more diddly events.  Airplanes that look like they are built by kids in a sweatshop, because they are.  Less participation because it's not worth doing. 

[Randy Cuberly]

After your explanations I still fail to see what this accomplishes...if you really want a new beginner pattern why not just say so and post a rule change.  The OT pattern actually makes a pretty good beginner pattern.
Personally i think the whole thing is a sham, and will fail miserably anyway!

Randy Cuberly

[John Stiles]

Dan,
There is no mistake in rule 4, this is open to all designs, power types and flyers. The PA pattern has a number of events that allow freedom of design. OTS is restricted to the ship as designed. There are some great looking ships that aren't flown because of very large inboard wings or short tail moments that makes it flop around or touchy that many fliers loved these designs and back in the day made changes that you can't fly it in OTS. There are lots of ships post 52 that are non-flapped, bipes, profiles, etc. that could now be flown and be competitive. The 52 pattern doesn't offer any advantage to or disadvantage for high power so you could fly them if you want but the non-flaps are also competitive with them. You could also use these rules for simple "log" 1/2A's, all kinds of fun. For others fliers, they like flying OTS but not the PA pattern, trekking out to a contest for one event is sometimes a pain.

The OTS 52 pattern is fun to fly, reasonably challenging to fly well. For some fliers the PA pattern is a problem having to fly 6 laps inverted then having to stop and do the outside loops. In the 52 pattern you do 2 laps inverted then flip upright get level then do the eights, it gives you a lap or so to settle down. This is not meant to be difficult just easy to participate, fun. I think it is going to be interesting and we'll see how it pans out.

Best,       DennisT

Thinking outside the box. Nothing wrong with that at all...it's probably how all these contests came into being in the first place. Take BASS fishing for instance....the crappie fishermen couldn't really enjoy it much, so crappie tournaments came into being...and shark tournaments etc. Oh...I almost forgot about golf...it was once mainly only for the well heeled, then Tiger woods came on the scene, and there was certainly some consternation among golfers, especially a noted few. Somebody invented miniature golf, and lately something called frisby golf. Stick to it Toth...not a bad idea at all. You cant please all of the people all of the time.

[Dwayne]

Thinking outside the box. Nothing wrong with that at all...it's probably how all these contests came into being in the first place. Take BASS fishing for instance....the crappie fishermen couldn't really enjoy it much, so crappie tournaments came into being...and shark tournaments etc. Oh...I almost forgot about golf...it was once mainly only for the well heeled, then Tiger woods came on the scene, and there was certainly some consternation among golfers, especially a noted few. Somebody invented miniature golf, and lately something called frisby golf. Stick to it Toth...not a bad idea at all. You cant please all of the people all of the time.

We need a like button on this site.  

[Hoss Cain]

Thinking outside the box. Nothing wrong with that at all...it's probably how all these contests came into being in the first place. Take BASS fishing for instance....the crappie fishermen couldn't really enjoy it much, so crappie tournaments came into being...and shark tournaments etc. Oh...I almost forgot about golf...it was once mainly only for the well heeled, then Tiger woods came on the scene, and there was certainly some consternation among golfers, especially a noted few. Somebody invented miniature golf, and lately something called frisby golf. Stick to it Toth...not a bad idea at all. You cant please all of the people all of the time.

Agreed. Such an event if close-by could well entice locals to once again take some old sport-flying models out and join in the comradely method of having an event. That is what makes RC so much fun. Check out the "RULES" for AMA's 705 RC  Fun Fly. The published rules include kind of a do-as-you please and think up new stuff. For 18 years now, I have been CD for such an event. Jetero RC Club's annual "Frozen Fickle Finger of Fate Fun Fly."
Four Event-Tasks change a bit every year. This Sat. 02-22-14 will be the 18th event. Most of the event costs are paid by me, and the entry fees are returned to the winners in cash awards.
I started and tried to try to get back to CL Stunt, but the many small requirements are too much for an old-timer like me. Turned 78 yesterday. Fun and good times are what counts. Go for it, Dennis.  

[Gerald Arana]

I agree with Howard.  

I think there are to many events now.

And as far as this new (proposed) event goes.......we (the Circle Jerks) do that every weekend now, only there are NO trophies/worries about who wins! Its called "SPORT" flying. Or practicing if you will.

Jerry

[55chevr]

We are engaged in a dying sport.  I would say that it is a fair statement that the average competitor qualifies for senior citizen status.  Without additional interest the outcome is obvious. This is a self cleansing process.  If no one enters there will be no category.  I say worth a try. 

[Dave_Trible]

It would be nice to see something for the 'gap' airplanes between old time and classic.  Quite a few in those number of years.  Fly whatever pattern.  It would open a lot of 'new' designs to build.

Dave

[55chevr]

As I read this it is OTS pattern for any plane ... correct?

[Dave_Trible]

Well I guess you are right.  Maybe I should have defined it differently.  A bunch of airplanes are not legal for OT like the Super Ringmaster and many Veco airplanes but wouldn't be used in classic generally as not competitive with the flapped Noblers , Ares and so on.  That era seemed to start in the later 50s.  So not sure what you'd call it but there are some airplanes that fall through that crack and are not usually seen.  Make that a new arena to play in and you might see some getting the wood out to cut.

Dave

[Dave_Trible]

I know there were reasons and a couple designs that caused it. But it seems like that classic date should be pushed back a little.  Wish it were like 56-57.

[Bill Little]

I have a tendency to agree with Dave T., to a degree, about the dates for Classic.  It seems that when the '57 "Green Box" Nobler kit by Top Flite came out, a LOT of "new designs" came from it.  Some (Like Bob Gieseke) just traced the airfoil, made it fatter and got a whole 'nuther series of "original" designs.  I cannot argue the '69 cut off date, too much, since Bob Lampione's 1969 NATS winner used the "Super Nobler" airfoil so was "attached" to the earlier time frame.

Now with the first USA-1 in 1968, though, and along with Al Rabe's awesome planes, this started a new trend.  Maybe Lew's Shark was just as instrumental, also.  Everything overlaps way too much! LOL!!  I mean, the '52 Nobler was a great stunter for its day, and it is OTS legal..........

ANYWAY, run the event and see how it goes.  That's the only way to find out as we all know.

BIG Bear

[Jim Thomerson]

I think you could call it "Unrestricted Retro Stunt".  Whether it will fly or not, I don't know.  I have a Zilch X-pendable which would be fine for this event. 

[FLOYD CARTER]

Several people are asking "why".  I guess I'm another one.  OTS is meant to be exactly that.  Not only using the OTS stunt pattern, but using OTS-legal planes.

A modern stunter could easily do well with the OTS sequence, but many authentic OTS designs had some trouble with it.  That is the challenge in OTS: getting an authentic OTS plane through the pattern with some style.  Doing so reminds us of the difficulty involved in trimming a mediocre design and learning to fly it as best that pilot and plane can muster.

There are still many OTS designs out there waiting to be discovered.  The European list of OTS designs has barely been touched.

If it is the purpose to inject some new "life" into OTS, I would suggest a movement to search for designs other than the usual ones seen at every OTS meet.

Floyd

[john e. holliday]

Forget the Super "52" Rules contest.  Just have a Super Fun Fly Get Together.  Any plane, any stunt pattern and fly for fun.   No limit on number of flights.   Awards, if there needs to be any,   Pilots Choice on a plane that is flown,  The most flights put in and who is having the most fun.  Nothing like watching full combat VooDoo on pressure flying the stunt pattern.   Mike McAdams used to do that just for kicks.  Didn't have time to write score down.  Maybe we could get more people out just to fly for fun and not have to worry about who you are to follow on the circle.   Like VSC on practice  days,  sign up sheet on  each circle, fly when your name comes up, then sign again if you want to fly again.   We have way too many stunt events now, just like racing and carrier.

[Bill Little]

Several people are asking "why".  I guess I'm another one.  OTS is meant to be exactly that.  Not only using the OTS stunt pattern, but using OTS-legal planes.

A modern stunter could easily do well with the OTS sequence, but many authentic OTS designs had some trouble with it.  That is the challenge in OTS: getting an authentic OTS plane through the pattern with some style.  Doing so reminds us of the difficulty involved in trimming a mediocre design and learning to fly it as best that pilot and plane can muster.

There are still many OTS designs out there waiting to be discovered.  The European list of OTS designs has barely been touched.

If it is the purpose to inject some new "life" into OTS, I would suggest a movement to search for designs other than the usual ones seen at every OTS meet.

Floyd

Hi Mr. Floyd!  This is a similar idea to the one Denny Adamisin was talking about a while back.  Like Jim T.'s Zilch X-Pendable, some of the nice old models do not fit in anywhere in stunt today if you want to be at all competitive.  The Zilch X-Pendable has to fly in Classic but is in reality an Old Time model.  Others like the PDQ Super Clown, and several more, are not really "modern" enough to be competitive in Classic.  If you do not give an "obese rodent's posterior" then you CAN enter them in Classic............. for fun.  I think some of these "tweeners" need a place to fly, or at least for there to be more Fun Flys for C/L so that just using them will actually be FUN.  And many of us will get to see models that we haven't seen in 50 years, or more, if at all!

But what do I know............................ 

BIG Bear

[Bruce Perry]

Really?  A guy offers up an idea of how he might generate some fun in his area and the concensus is heresy and blasphemy?

OMG what if they have fun?  What if they get some guys tearing around with some sport models and they try the OTS pattern?

That will not do!  They didn't do what we always do, therefore we must watch for falling sky particles. 

I really don't have a dog in the fight here either way, but I think its funny that we are all concerned about the impending demise of our event and when someone suggests an idea he wants to try he's shot down.  What if we didn't nit pick like a bunch of crusty old men jingling change in our pockets?  What if we said "sure give it a go and good luck"?  Maybe the next guy would come up with another way to assist.  Maybe the sky isn't falling and doom and gloom could be just in our heads.

.... Or it's all going to h*ll in a handbasket and the best thing to do is throw in the towel....

I have even tried racing to try and support that locally.  It wasn't icky!

I'll be over here jingling my change and muttering about the end of the world...

Bruce

[55chevr]

Along the same thought,  was a free style aerobatics pattern ever considered?

[Gil Mc Millan]

Sounds like the CL version of RC "Fun Fly".  in my club a fun fly does nothing to develop new pilots or to encourage experienced pilots to move into the "real" AMA events. Fun events only encourage "poking holes in the sky".
I don't really have anything against Super 52 rules & event, I just don't see that it accomplishes anything desirable, or would develop any new CL pilots. I'd rather just go find a nice, fairly intelligent boy or girl & teach them to fly.....oh, that's what I do now.

[Dave_Trible]

For my part I might be guilty of thread drift here.  Dennis I'm sorry for that.  I'd say if you can find support for your idea then absolutely go for it.  I see somebody plopping their modern piped or electric F2B airplane in the circle to fly the OT pattern.  Then it really is just a fun fly and might not need any judges. 

Dave

[Randy Cuberly]

Really?  A guy offers up an idea of how he might generate some fun in his area and the concensus is heresy and blasphemy?

Bruce

No definitely not Heresy or Blasphemy...merely BOREDOM...Fun Fly...Sport Fly...Non-competitive event for non-competitive people and airplanes!

Boring is the term...sure it's fun...but here in Tuscon we do that every day so what's the big deal for a contest of "Sport Flying"...doesn't make any sense.

There's no Blasphemy or Heresy involved it's simply a waste of time to "organize" what's already available any time!

Build whatever you want and go fly it!  Contest?...For What?  Best OT pattern flown by a Trivial Pursuit?  

Randy Cuberly  

[John Stiles]

"Non-competitive event for non-competitive people "           

"here in Tuscon we do that every day "         

[Bob Whitely]

Dennis, I know you mean well and that  is commendable.  What I could never
understand is the difference between  a fun fly and what we do every day here
as Randy said. Now if the top three places won a lot of money you might have
something otherwise it's just a daily occurance here in the sunny southwest. RJ

[john e. holliday]

Randy and Bob,  the old DOC says you guys are so lucky.   Guess I should have ignored the family and moved there long ago. 

[Dave_Trible]

Randy and Bob,  the old DOC says you guys are so lucky.   Guess I should have ignored the family and moved there long ago. 

You aren't going anywhere.  Somebody has to help me mow the circle.

Dave

[Douglas Ames]

Quote: "This event is meant to first and foremost to be fun,..."

I'd like to see some "Custom" OTS models, not unlike a `49 Merc. chopped and lowered with candy paint vs. a restored orig. 

[Dennis Toth]

Doug,
That's part of the idea, you can customize some of the old ships and have an event that you can fly in and be competitive. You also don't have to remember two patterns to have a worth going to contest weekend. This is basically a "fly what you brung" event, no special airplane to build. Just another event option to have some fun and friendly competition.

Best,     DennisT

[Jim Thomerson]

I'm no longer flying control line so I can be objective. I say talk it around locally and see if there  is interest.  If so have one.

I've seen freestyle stunt flown a couple of times.  To do it properly takes a lot of work.  The maneuvers have to flow in a preplanned and graceful fashion to look good.  I don't think it has caught on anywhere.

[Bob Whitely]

Dennis, I still appreciate your ideas and thoughts. Now, one of the problems we have
already is too many events. It's pie in the sky to think another one would bring out
more guys. Also there is no such thing as friendly competition! I want to win every
time I enter and work hard to do it.

Douglas, Show up at VSC and you will see some really nice OTS planes that you are talking
about with the exception that they are true to the plans design wise.  RJ

[Dennis Toth]

Well, I guess what events are flown is up to the contest organizer (look at VSC having Ringmaster and Exhibition events). This is just a simple event that gives freedom to use what you have or want to design/build.

Bob, I agree that flying in a competition most want to win, but everyone enjoys this sport/hobby differently. Sometimes there are contests within contests, just say'in.

Best,        DennisT

[Tim Stagg]

I normally dont comment on treads any more  but I would like to offer two quotes/comments that have been shared with me about control line flying.

 For those that dont know me, I  have flown RC for the last 40 years, I am 50 now. I came back to control line about 6 years ago for a new challenge and have just fallen in love with the people and the competition. With that as a frame of reference, onto the quotes from two very well know.....non mentioned people... you know who you are.

Onto the quotes....best I can remember

1. Well, now that you have just won worlds,  why couldn't you have gotten good at something you can make money at??
2. Tim....if you want to try a new event....try it, if it sticks and people participate....we will have a new event to enjoy.

I guess the point I am trying to make is....... GO FOR IT...we do this for fun....there are no professionals here.... no matter how big some of their egos are.

At the end of the day....it really does not matter, this is a hobby!!!!

Tim

[bob whitney]

i am not sure where i stand on the new event ,but here in Fla a fun fly will draw twice as many people as a stunt contest will .we arent as lucky as Tucson to have so many flyers in one area ,we have a couple in tampa area, a couple in miami a couple in the palm beach aera. and a cople in Jacksonville. one or 2 in daytona and a couple here in palm bay ,if i want to fly with the tampa group it is a 2 1/2 hr ride for a couple of flights miami is 3 hrs

the tampa contest had about 15 over all entrys last year  i have held two fun flys ,one with two paved and two grass circles and they were all in use all day ,the last one we had two grass circles and again it was a full day of flying on both circles everyone was havong fun as the Tucson guys do ,but where were these flyers at the tampa contest
  mention contest and everyone go's into hiding

the ringmaster day is another big day for us,  we had 17 diff Ringmasters flying last year thinking about adding a fun day with it this year. might be a place to do the O/T free for all

[Jim Kraft]

I flew R/C pattern for 25 years and started flying control line in 94. I was a die hard competition guy in R/C, and when I started flying control line I was just going to do it for fun. Since I live in an area where there are few C/Liners, I started going to contests in order to enjoy other like minded people. I have flown many contests and VSC was the highlight for many years. If there was ever a really good bunch of people it is controline people. You guys are the cream of all model airplane flyers in my book. I really love every one of you. I know it would be boring for some of you who are dedicated to competition, but one weekend a few years ago after a Wichita contest a bunch of us got together to just fly and have some fun. It was extremely enjoyable for me and all the others that were there. We just rotated flying probably like you guys in Tucson do all the time. Here in the plains states there just are not that many flyers and contests are few and far between. So maybe a run what you brung sorta Old Time contest would be really fun for the less fortunate of us that live in the boonies. I would sure give it a try anyway.

[Balsa Butcher]

I think that if incorporated will become OTS with modern planes. Also, if the idea is to see rarely modeled or not fully aerobatic models why not combine this idea with the Tucson/VSC Exhibition Class but make it a competition of sorts and not limit it to stunt designs:
*Call it Exhibition Class
*One Trophy
*Any plane as long as it is safe. Not limited to stunters. Encouraged are weird planes (OTS flying saucers) Planes that are seldom seen such as; (Sterling Neuport 28, Waco, etc) vintage scale carrier planes, Old Time combat planes, Gyrocopters, fun fly planes like Bi-Slob etc...all are eligible.
*Each plane is admired on the ground and flown however the pilot cares to fly it.
*Judges are fellow competitors and contest participants. Each gets one vote after the flight.
*Judging criteria is what plane/flight did you enjoy seeing the most, was most impressed by, liked the best, a completely subjective pilots choice situation.
*No builder of the model rule, garage sale finds encouraged, "find it, fix it, fly it, win with it".

Just brainstorming here. May give it a try at a contest later this summer.
 

[john e. holliday]

VSC does give an award for the most unusual plane each year.   Or is it the most unusual pilot.  I have receive it for my Netzband designed "Gold Brick" which needs to to be dusted off and flown again.  They also have trophies for Spirit of 52,  Spirit of 62,  Best I-Beam and pilots choice.  There may be more individual awards. 

[Jim Kraft]

To me VSC is the ultimate model airplane contest. When you get that many like minded people together to fly model airplanes there is just nothing else like it. It is really to much to take in in one or two weeks. I still have the smile on my face for at least a month after being there. And to think we owe it all to Mike for eating popcorn before he went to bed and dreaming this up. LOL. There are so many people responsible for making it happen every year, and I do not know how they can possibly do it, but they always get the job done. Again, my hat is off to you all. You guys are the best of the best.