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Author Topic: Super Tigre Part Number ID  (Read 2963 times)

Offline Dan McEntee

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Super Tigre Part Number ID
« on: January 31, 2015, 04:23:26 PM »
    I have this posted over in the engine section, but thought it would be acceptable to present it here also. I have  been working on cleaning up and trying to organize my stuff and going through my model engine parts I came across some Super Tigre piston rings. The parts numbers are as follows: 22230318 and 22232394. Again, these are piston rings. Does anyone have a catalog or parts list that can tell me what they are for? I think I bought them from some one a long time ago that was selling off a lot of parts and he had thought they were ST.60 piston rings. They are new in package and if they turn out to be something I can't use, I'll make them available to someone who could.
   Thanks in advance,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline bill bischoff

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Re: Super Tigre Part Number ID
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2015, 05:43:22 PM »
According to happyhobby.com. 22230318 is for ST60 and 22232394 is for ST G-51.

Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: Super Tigre Part Number ID
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2015, 05:44:37 PM »
AMA 62221

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Super Tigre Part Number ID
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2015, 06:20:09 PM »
   I have this posted over in the engine section, but thought it would be acceptable to present it here also. I have  been working on cleaning up and trying to organize my stuff and going through my model engine parts I came across some Super Tigre piston rings. The parts numbers are as follows: 22230318 and 22232394. Again, these are piston rings. Does anyone have a catalog or parts list that can tell me what they are for? I think I bought them from some one a long time ago that was selling off a lot of parts and he had thought they were ST.60 piston rings. They are new in package and if they turn out to be something I can't use, I'll make them available to someone who could.
 


    BTW, I am not sure about the ST60, but for the STG21/46, the "good" rings only had "0316" on the packet, and the later, bad ones had the entire part number 22230316, as I recall. I had it wrong in the other thread.

    Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Super Tigre Part Number ID
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2015, 07:51:11 PM »
  WOW! Never heard of Happy Hobby. Just book marked that site. Useful for the parts information even if they don't have the parts. Wonder how much of what they have list is actually in stock?
 
  Brett: By "bad" do you mean just soft? These will probably do in a pinch. Been meaning to order up some of Frank Bowman's rings but never seem to get around to it. All the Super Tigre parts that I have ever seen or owned had the full part number.
 
   Thanks for the help guys. I'll just leave them in my parts box for now.

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Super Tigre Part Number ID
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2015, 08:32:49 PM »
 Brett: By "bad" do you mean just soft? These will probably do in a pinch. Been meaning to order up some of Frank Bowman's rings but never seem to get around to it. All the Super Tigre parts that I have ever seen or owned had the full part number.

  Soft, wear quickly, and have generally poor compression. I used them at the time, but they didn't last very long. I don't know if the same theory applies to ST51 or 60 rings.

   The test for a good ring is to check the compression forward and backward. It should have a lot of compression in both directions. If it has a lot one way, and very little the other (usually has good compression backwards because the ring gap tends to move to the intake side for some unknown reasons) that means it is probably not good. The bad rings will run smoothly but use a lot of fuel and have minimal "power" which can go down noticeably in as little at 10-20 flights.

   A good ring also turns brown after a few break-in runs. The bad ones tend to get gray/silver and shiny.

   If it has poor compression in both directions, and it has been run on straight castor, or has been sitting for a long time, the problem is probably that the ring is glued into the groove by congealed castor oil or varnish. The solution is to switch to fuel with no more than 50% castor, put a 10-4 or even a 9-4 on it, and run it on the ground, at full RPM (peaked out lean) for a 10-15 minutes and that will loosen it up. If that doesn't work, the ring is probably just worn out, get a new one.

   If I was still trying to run ST46s competitively, I would look for the Tony Cincotta ceramic-coated liner. Failing that, get out the brake cylinder hone, rough up the liner, and get an aftermarket ring from Frank Bowman.

    Note that almost nothing new has been learned on this topic since about 1989 when David came in 6th at the TT with his ST46 "Central Gravity" running 15% Cool Power. That was pretty much the last gasp of the 4-2 break era. Then, as now, most of the "important tuning information" was a steaming load. What you want is a dead-stock engine, a selection of venturis from stock to about .181, and a good ring. And maybe some YS-20/20.

  Everything I know about the topic (almost all gleaned from others who figured it out - I just absorbed it) is in some post here or SSW, just search. I may waver a bit on the actual part numbers, despite my generally good memory, the details are fading.


     Brett

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: Super Tigre Part Number ID
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2015, 09:34:27 PM »
I have pages and pages of SuperTigre and OS parts lists from World Engines, '60s to the '90s or so.  Feel free to send an email should you be looking ...

Dennis
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Super Tigre Part Number ID
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2015, 12:34:22 AM »
   Hey Dennis;
     I'll drop you a line and if you have the lists on a electronic file, I'll take them just for giggles and grins. I have some other old stuff they will help identify. Not a lot, but there is no such thing as too much information sometimes. It might come in handy later.

  Brett;  If the rings will help me keep some engines running, it's worth keeping them. Don't take up much room in my parts box! Maybe I'll start building a Marvin Denny Memorial Junk Barrel! God bless him! I fly the G-51 in some of my PAMPA stunt models and like them a lot. Been using them with pretty good success since they came out. I also fly a Saito four stroke now and then. ST.60s are in the stable just because I like the sound of them and they're different, and at a local level still a useful engine in competition. The same for the .46. I have some classic and N-30 models in mind for them. "Regular" engines fit the way I fly. My work schedule and other life stuff get in the way of me putting in the work to build the models to learn the pipe, or the electric technology. I try to keep my equipment at a level where, when I get a chance to fly, I grab a model off the wall, and couple of boxes of stuff, fuel and hit the field. I call it flying by the three "Fs", Fuel, Flip, and Fly! If I had the time to put in what it takes to get the best advantage out of newer technology, it would be the pipe, because while the electric stuff is interesting, it's just not my thing. I like the feel and sound of an engine. I like all the different kinds of engines for what they are, different from each other as night and day in how you get the best performance out of them. I fly them all just for fun. You can ask anyone that I have flown against in the last 15 or twenty years, I do OK and one of the things I pride myself in is getting good quick starts, and consistent engine runs. I may not be the best when I get to the circle, but I'm ready! It's all part of why I fly stunt.
  Thanks again for the info,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Super Tigre Part Number ID
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2015, 01:35:58 PM »
 Soft, wear quickly, and have generally poor compression. I used them at the time, but they didn't last very long. I don't know if the same theory applies to ST51 or 60 rings.

   The test for a good ring is to check the compression forward and backward. It should have a lot of compression in both directions. If it has a lot one way, and very little the other (usually has good compression backwards because the ring gap tends to move to the intake side for some unknown reasons) that means it is probably not good. The bad rings will run smoothly but use a lot of fuel and have minimal "power" which can go down noticeably in as little at 10-20 flights.

   A good ring also turns brown after a few break-in runs. The bad ones tend to get gray/silver and shiny.

   If it has poor compression in both directions, and it has been run on straight castor, or has been sitting for a long time, the problem is probably that the ring is glued into the groove by congealed castor oil or varnish. The solution is to switch to fuel with no more than 50% castor, put a 10-4 or even a 9-4 on it, and run it on the ground, at full RPM (peaked out lean) for a 10-15 minutes and that will loosen it up. If that doesn't work, the ring is probably just worn out, get a new one.

   If I was still trying to run ST46s competitively, I would look for the Tony Cincotta ceramic-coated liner. Failing that, get out the brake cylinder hone, rough up the liner, and get an aftermarket ring from Frank Bowman.

    Note that almost nothing new has been learned on this topic since about 1989 when David came in 6th at the TT with his ST46 "Central Gravity" running 15% Cool Power. That was pretty much the last gasp of the 4-2 break era. Then, as now, most of the "important tuning information" was a steaming load. What you want is a dead-stock engine, a selection of venturis from stock to about .181, and a good ring. And maybe some YS-20/20.

  Everything I know about the topic (almost all gleaned from others who figured it out - I just absorbed it) is in some post here or SSW, just search. I may waver a bit on the actual part numbers, despite my generally good memory, the details are fading.


     Brett

Brett  That is your opinion, and your welcome to it, but from my finding, it is partly wrong, the engines ST 46 51 60 are  MUCH better prepared properly as I did to many many 100s of them, first they all benefit from better bearing and sealed front ones, the ST 46 had some versions that had a aluminum band around the crank, this some times came loose in the engine and ruined things, also these particular cranks were not balanced well, and they were greatly improved by removing the band, and cutting them back to the older "T" shape, which was a better, smoother running crank, the true venturies I made for them was far better than the multi hole sprinkler, that had the really irritating way of filling with air bubbles at the end of the flight all around the "ditch" cut 360 degrees around the venturie to feed the fuel, the results was that it burped on and off for several laps before most of them would shutoff, Scott Bair used to run the stock venturies, that he "fixed" by inserting a 3/4 moon shaped blocking device and only allowing fuel to enter thru 1 or 2 holes, I just made new ones. Another was, with the limited range of glow plugs heat ranges, the heat dam cut around the cylinder heat, at the point the glow plugs installed, helped in keeping the motor running smoother . With respects to the rings, after setting up 100s of new ones and rebuilding many 100s of ST 46s, I found that most of the replacement rings, were machined to zero gap, many people would just stick these in and use them, they would heat up and grind the ring out of round, or flat on the side that the gaps were touching, this NEVER sealed right and always had inferior compression.. others called this "glazing" the ring. to set these up to work correctly, you absolutly had to set a proper ring end gap, and on the used ones, hone a crosshatch into the sleeve, then of course make sure the sleeve was still round and in good shape. The end gap also greatly depended on what sleeve you used also, there were thin ones, thick ones, chromed ones, standard ones, the chrome ones , normally used a larger end gap, whereas you could hone the steel ones, and setup the gap very tight, they would wear the ring in quickly, and open up to a proper end gap. The chrome ones were much much harder to hone, and many did not bother. Also the chrome ones ran hotter. Then you had many people who used older sleeves that were "mushroomed" out at the top, these never were ones that sealed well.
There are a lot of other things that will make the ST 46 51 60 better engines than stock, but I have covered enough to make the point.

Regards
Randy

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Super Tigre Part Number ID
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2015, 01:55:20 PM »
Brett  That is your opinion, and your welcome to it, but from my finding, it is partly wrong, the engines ST 46 51 60 are  MUCH better prepared properly as I did to many many 100s of them, first they all benefit from better bearing and sealed front ones, the ST 46 had some versions that had a aluminum band around the crank, this some times came loose in the engine and ruined things, also these particular cranks were not balanced well, and they were greatly improved by removing the band, and cutting them back to the older "T" shape, which was a better, smoother running crank, the true venturies I made for them was far better than the multi hole sprinkler, that had the really irritating way of filling with air bubbles at the end of the flight all around the "ditch" cut 360 degrees around the venturie to feed the fuel, the results was that it burped on and off for several laps before most of them would shutoff, Scott Bair used to run the stock venturies, that he "fixed" by inserting a 3/4 moon shaped blocking device and only allowing fuel to enter thru 1 or 2 holes, I just made new ones. Another was, with the limited range of glow plugs heat ranges, the heat dam cut around the cylinder heat, at the point the glow plugs installed, helped in keeping the motor running smoother . With respects to the rings, after setting up 100s of new ones and rebuilding many 100s of ST 46s, I found that most of the replacement rings, were machined to zero gap, many people would just stick these in and use them, they would heat up and grind the ring out of round, or flat on the side that the gaps were touching, this NEVER sealed right and always had inferior compression.. others called this "glazing" the ring. to set these up to work correctly, you absolutly had to set a proper ring end gap, and on the used ones, hone a crosshatch into the sleeve, then of course make sure the sleeve was still round and in good shape. The end gap also greatly depended on what sleeve you used also, there were thin ones, thick ones, chromed ones, standard ones, the chrome ones , normally used a larger end gap, whereas you could hone the steel ones, and setup the gap very tight, they would wear the ring in quickly, and open up to a proper end gap. The chrome ones were much much harder to hone, and many did not bother. Also the chrome ones ran hotter. Then you had many people who used older sleeves that were "mushroomed" out at the top, these never were ones that sealed well.
There are a lot of other things that will make the ST 46 51 60 better engines than stock, but I have covered enough to make the point.

   Yes, I recall the good old days, too, and all the deck-chair-rearranging and strange notions people had. I'll go with my best dead stock ST46 against any modified version in contest conditions. All you need is to build a time machine to return to 1985 so we can see how it turns out. The only thing I would do different now is run as much nitro as I could fit in the tank.

   BTW, I agree that the "zero end gap" is clearly wrong. The difference with the stock rings is that the "good" ones could run with end gaps from as little as .001 to .004-5 and still have good compression and good compression in both directions, and the "bad" ones would have minimal compression all the time and a wild difference between forwards and backwards. If the gap wound up on the intake side, it had a lot of compression backwards and weak forwards, and if the gap wound up on the exhaust side, it had good compression forwards and not backwards.

      I am not sure what the rest of your point might be, I never said anything about zero end gaps and I know for certain that if you can't get a good stock ring, you have to get it from an aftermarket source. I didn't say that all aftermarket rings were good, in fact, the only aftermarket rings I have ever used where good, but also long since out of stock since the last time I looked was over 30 years ago.

    Brett

Offline EddyR

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Re: Super Tigre Part Number ID
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2015, 02:25:12 PM »
I am not sure how this went from a ST parts question to a ST/46 "good guy bad guy" thread but the answer to 90% of the old ST/46 problems is install a Brian Gardner P&L.
 I had the first sets of those P&L and have only taken them down one time since they were installed for testing. On my first sets the rod boss clearance in the piston had to be opened up.  They run on very little oil,use 4 ounces to fly the pattern. Turn key operation.
  Like Randy I worked on hundreds of them for many people. They are great motors for the old classic models.
Ed   AKA Eddie Haskell
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Super Tigre Part Number ID
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2015, 03:27:25 PM »

     " I am not sure what the rest of your point might be, I never said anything about zero end gaps and I know for certain that if you can't get a good stock ring, you have to get it from an aftermarket source. I didn't say that all aftermarket rings were good, in fact, the only aftermarket rings I have ever used where good, but also long since out of stock since the last time I looked was over 30 years ago.

    Brett "

The only point was to show there are ways to improve the ST engines, and ALL of the few items I mentioned did indeed make them better engines. As far as saying that you said rings are good bad whatever.. I never said that , IF you have a good ring, its a good ring, no matter where it came from , same with bad rings, and I have had bad aftermarket rings, bad homemade rings and bad factory rings, same with good rings. So that will about cover rings... except for saying I still have a wall full of hundreds of factory rings, along with aftermarket and homemade rings, I even have ST rings that have the 4 digit number instead of the full part number.
 If you want to use all stock engines, regardless on whether they can be better or not, that is yours to decide, My point is there are better way to improve something, engines especially , and fact is many of them can be improved. This is not about any good guy bad guy thing, it is simple information, and in some cases just opinion

Regards
Randy

Offline goozgog

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Re: Super Tigre Part Number ID
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2015, 03:34:55 PM »
   I'm grateful that two genuine experts have taken the
time to discuss these excellent engines so that duffers like
me can benefit from their hard earned knowledge.

Good to have the parts list too!

   I'm currently getting great runs (wet 2) from my
ST.60's and scoring well at contests with them.
I'll be sad when they aren't considered worth discussing.

Cheers!
Keith Morgan


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