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Author Topic: Ukraine lines  (Read 47341 times)

Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #150 on: September 18, 2018, 08:10:42 AM »
Ruslan, thank you! I ordered 2 sets to try on my new favorite airplane. The lines look very well made. The packaging is exceptional and very professional. The price per set is great, especially with Amazon prime and the free shipping. Your efforts are to be commended.

Hello Dane
Thank you for your good feedback.
Have you already used these lines on your new airplane?
Please write your impressions of the flight on brass lines and on stainless steel lines.
I wish you many good flights on your new plane!

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #151 on: September 18, 2018, 10:19:18 AM »
I bought two sets. Now, I have to have a plane light enough to use them.  ;D
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Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #152 on: September 21, 2018, 02:22:18 PM »
I bought two sets. Now, I have to have a plane light enough to use them.  ;D
Hello Randy
Thank you for your order.
I hope that you will be very comfortable to manage your new and very light aircraft on new lines.
Regards
Ruslan

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #153 on: September 23, 2018, 04:04:07 PM »
Hello Dane
Thank you for your good feedback.
Have you already used these lines on your new airplane?
Please write your impressions of the flight on brass lines and on stainless steel lines.
I wish you many good flights on your new plane!

I flew several flights, back to back. I used my .015 60' lines that I made (maybe a SIG kit of lines) and Ruslan's lines, .015 60' pre-made set. There is a noticeable difference. So I switched back and forth again. 3 flights on each set. I think I'm going to stick with the controllineparts.com lines for my contest plane, the TEOSAWKI.

Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #154 on: October 02, 2018, 02:56:10 PM »
I flew several flights, back to back. I used my .015 60' lines that I made (maybe a SIG kit of lines) and Ruslan's lines, .015 60' pre-made set. There is a noticeable difference. So I switched back and forth again. 3 flights on each set. I think I'm going to stick with the controllineparts.com lines for my contest plane, the TEOSAWKI.
Hello Dane
Thanks for your feedback !
Your competition for which you were preparing already held?
If not yet, then I wish you to perform well.

Yesterday, October 1, on my page on Amazon, I was given the opportunity of international delivery. Also, when paying for brass steel control Lines to Amazon (FBM) that are currently being delivered from Ukraine (60 and 66), delivery time of at least 14 days should be taken into account. Amazon has mistaken two times already received payment from the buyer for delivery within 2 days on the line that is currently delivered only from Ukraine, which is at least two weeks. For this reason, there was a delay in the delivery of goods. I bring my apologies.
Regards
Ruslan

Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #155 on: October 28, 2018, 03:43:47 AM »
Hello, friends!
I have two good news for you.
The first news consists of test results for the operation of brass-coated lines early in the morning on very wet, wet from dew grass. Before, I never flew constantly on wet grass early in the morning. Now, using a silent electric plane, I had the opportunity to train every morning on our football field, on the territory of which our aircraft modeling laboratory is located.
Tests were conducted within two months. Every morning I flew 4 times from 8 to 9 am, when the grass was very wet. During this period I had 25 trainings and I made only 100 flights. These are 100 takeoffs and 100 landings within 25 hours of training. Before training, I did not process my brassized lines with a rain detergent or oil to repel water. After training, I did not specifically wipe my wet brassized lines with a dry cotton cloth. My goal was to conduct a test in real weather conditions without any courting of brass-plated lines. I specifically exploited brass lines just like steel 7-wire stainless lines on which I flew 3 years ago.
After two months of flying exclusively on wet grass and after storing the lines in a dry ventilated room in my wooden launch box, I did not find any rust on the lines or any darkening from contact with dew.
At the same time, I absolutely did not wipe the lines from moisture.
I was very surprised. Now I am very glad that I personally could, as a manufacturer, conduct such an important test for my customers who constantly ask me the same question about the storage and operation of brass-plated lines.

The second good news is the presence of brass-plated lines of different lengths and a diameter of 0.0145 inches from today on Amazon. These lines are flight-ready, 61, 62, 63, and 64 feet long. A little later, in two weeks, lines with a length of 60, 65, and 66 feet with a diameter of 0.0145 will appear on sale, and lines 0.0165 with a length of 61 and 62 feet which have not been seen before.

Many thanks for your attention, your orders and your questions for which I always try to give a reasoned answer.
I wish you all many many good flights and good mood.
Regards
Ruslan Kurenkov & team Controllineparts

Offline Target

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #156 on: October 28, 2018, 11:03:58 AM »
I also received a set of lines from you. And some small wheels for 1/2A.
Thanks for the service. I haven't flown yet since then. I'm confident the lines will be great.
Thank you!
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #157 on: October 30, 2018, 03:57:00 PM »
I also received a set of lines from you. And some small wheels for 1/2A.
Thanks for the service. I haven't flown yet since then. I'm confident the lines will be great.
Thank you!
Hello Chris.
Yes, I remember your order on our site   controllineparts.com
You chose very good lines with a diameter of 0.0145 inches.
I myself fly on such lines only a little longer. My lines are now 64 feet long. The wheels that you bought I use on the rear rack chassis. These are the lightest wheels that I managed to find from manufacturers. The weight of such a wheel is only 1 gram.
Thank you for ordering!
I think that the duration of the delivery from Ukraine to you in Los Angeles was not long?
Please write your impressions after the first flights on brass lines 0.0145

Regards
Ruslan

Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #158 on: November 16, 2018, 04:06:29 PM »
Hello friends !
I want to inform you that the previously brass lines ready for flight were made by me only with a diameter of 0.0165 inches. The length of the lines was only 66' 65' and 60' feet. Now there are new length options. These are 64' 63' 62' and 61' feet.
Also, brass steel control lines with a diameter of 0.0145 were not ready for flight at all. There was only a kit available in the set length of 70 feet.
Now I began to produce lines with a diameter of 0.0145 inches, ready for flight of various lengths, 60' 61' 62' 63' 64' 65' and 66 feet.
In addition, there have been slight changes in the use of fittings. Now I use new brass rings.
The entire range of lines, and these are 32 different variants of the combination of length and diameter, are now presented on my website and on Amazon.
Thank you for your orders.
Waiting for your comments after using my lines in flight.
I wish you all a lot of good flights and good mood.
Regards
Ruslan

Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #159 on: December 20, 2018, 04:54:30 AM »
Hello, friends!
I recently read a new issue of Model Aviation magazine. There, in the controlline section, Bob Hunt wrote an article about his impressions about the use of various lines and about brass steel control lines. For those who are interested in the article about the lines, i want to publish here on the forum the entire article completely with the permission of the author.

"We stunt fliers spend tremendous amounts of time and energy thinking about ways to improve our performance and the performance of our models, focusing on power systems, building and finishing techniques, and coaching and practicing, but we spend almost no time thinking about - or trying to improve on - the actual control lines on which we fly our models. We use whatever is commercially available and trust that it is going to give us the best possible performance. And, to be fair, most of the lines we have been flying on for years have yielded great performance and value.
   Unlike most stunt fliers, I have opted to use solid lines instead of braided lines for most of my career. With the solids I have the advantage of being able to fly on thinner lines for a given weight of the model than if I were to use the braided lines (check out the AMA rules concerning model weights and line size requirements). Of course I’ve had to endure the down side issues of the solids as well. They need to be cleaned thoroughly before each flight with a solvent, and they are prone to “stick together” in rainy conditions. Still, the performance that I feel I’ve gained has kept me using them over the years.
   Recently I had the opportunity to fly Tom Luciano’s Crossfire on a new type of line. Tom had invited me to his field to help him trim out some minor annoying tendencies in his model. When I got to the field he told me that all those issues had been fixed by a switch to a new type of control line. Tom had obtained a set of lines that are being marketed by Ruslan Kurenkov, a Ukrainian stunt flier.
   Tom had been experiencing some lock issues after a hard corner with his model on the .015 cables he’d been using. It was not horrible, but annoying enough that he wanted to try and trim the model to prevent that problem. When he put the Ukrainian lines on the model, all the problems went away. And, in fact, he said the model flew better in every respect with the new lines.
   One flight on Tom’s model convinced me that these were the best lines I had ever flown on by a wide margin. I told Tom, “It’s like a different hobby flying on these lines.” Not only did the model lock very securely after each corner, it also felt easier to steer through rounds and it was much easier to make accurate transitions at the intersection points in the double maneuvers. Overall there was a very positive “steerability” on these lines compared to the normal cables. They provided all the advantages that I had found in the solid lines, without any of the downsides mentioned above.
   The only caveat to these new lines is that they require a bit more care in the way of storage. They are brass plated, and corrosion can be an issue. It is suggested strongly that the lines be wiped down with a rag saturated with machine oil after use. And, of course, this means that the oil must also be throughly cleaned from the lines before use (Ruslan recommends the use of Zippo lighter fluid to clean the lines).   
   Ruslan offers a wide variety of lines through his company, Control Line Parts, but the lines that Tom purchased are made up of 4-strand brass plated steel. I cannot comment on the stainless steel lines that are available from Control Line Parts. The brass plated steel lines are available already made up in several line lengths, and feature swagged ends. I’e never been a big fan of swagged ends on lines, so I would recommend purchasing lines that are a bit longer than you need and wrapping the ends yourself to suit.
    A complete listing of available lengths and diameters of the brass plated steel lines can be found on Ruslan’s website, controllineparts.com. I highly recommend that you give them a try.

And now, goodbye…
   For personal and health reasons I’m retiring as the CL Aerobatics columnist for Model Aviation effective immediately. In my tenure here it has been my privilege to try to inform and inspire CL Stunt fliers; and from the many hundreds of supportive emails and letters I’ve received it seems I’ve been successful to a large degree in that endeavor.
   To try and acknowledge everyone who has contributed to the column and supported me in this post would take all the pages of this magazine, so I’ll just say thanks to everyone who contributed, and thanks to all who have taken the time to read this column while I was at the helm.
   I have spoken with Jay Smith about a replacement columnist, and I’m overjoyed to report that Joe Daly has been appointed as the new guy here. Joe is an enthusiastic, extremely talented, and fully engaged Stunt flier, and I’m certain that his tenure here will be very successful.
   May you have light winds and good line tension. - Bob Hunt "

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #160 on: December 20, 2018, 11:25:54 AM »
If I was really serious about flying competition stunt I would try a set.  But I already have several spools of bulk lines that I make my lines from.

Thanks for the printing Bob's article.  He has been an inspiration for me from the first time I met him at the 74 Lake Charles NATS when my team mate an I were making a set of lines for F2C.  How many remember the lines with the little tabs/flags on them to keep the lines lined up.   Celebrated when they were out lawed.   They did make for faster planes when they were right, but took a lot more care.

Don't know if Bob will see this but he did act surprised when I told him I read all of his stuff.   Hope he has a long happy  retirement. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #161 on: December 20, 2018, 03:25:12 PM »
If I was really serious about flying competition stunt I would try a set.  But I already have several spools of bulk lines that I make my lines from.

Thanks for the printing Bob's article.  He has been an inspiration for me from the first time I met him at the 74 Lake Charles NATS when my team mate an I were making a set of lines for F2C.  How many remember the lines with the little tabs/flags on them to keep the lines lined up.   Celebrated when they were out lawed.   They did make for faster planes when they were right, but took a lot more care.

Don't know if Bob will see this but he did act surprised when I told him I read all of his stuff.   Hope he has a long happy  retirement. H^^
You should give them a try then alert us to the EBay link where you are selling your bulk stash! LL~
They are that much better. y1

I am going to miss Bob's articles too.  I have never had the pleasure of meeting him personally but his Crossfire was my Windows background while I was in the wilderness. 

ken

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Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #162 on: April 25, 2020, 04:06:49 AM »
Hello, friends !
I want to inform you that recently, after numerous production experiments and positive February flight tests, from 01.03.2020, I began to produce completely new brass lines which are the best product to date in the last five years. These are lines consisting of three rows and have a new diameter of 0.375 mm (0.0145), they are now also twisted as lines with a diameter of 0.415 mm (0.0165) and these are 10 turns per 10 mm of length. Previously, there were 4 strands, the diameter of the lines was 0.370 mm (0.014) and there were 6 turns per 10 mm of length (not fully twisted).
The lines work ideally with a power installation, which provides excellent glide among themselves, without any sticking in the complete absence of vibration from the aircraft electric motor.
On the site controllineparts.com these are any lines with a diameter of 0.014 - 0.0145.
On Amazon, new lines 0.0145x70 and 0.0145x60.
Thank you all for your attention.
I wish you many great flights.
Ruslan Kurenkov.
https://www.amazon.com/Control-Planes-Yellow-0-0145x2x70-controllineparts/dp/B07BX5V6KQ?ref_=ast_bbp_dp

Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #163 on: May 20, 2020, 03:00:30 AM »
Hello, friends !
Today I want to tell you about our new fluid that we developed and tested for long-term storage and use of steel brass lines. This liquid completely removes moisture and any contaminants from the surface of the lines and completely prevents rusting of brass steel lines during long-term storage and long-term operation. The liquid is applied from the bottle to the cotton cloth and then with this cloth you wipe the lines before training and after finishing flying before reeling onto the reel. After wiping the lines with PMDS-20 liquid, you will immediately feel how it becomes easier to control your plane. When rubbing against each other, the lines begin to slide and the friction decreases significantly. Water, rain, fog and dew when dropped on your brass lines are immediately thrown to the side. The liquid has a strong water-repellent effect, it penetrates inward between individual strands and forcing out dirt, dust and water no longer allows water to penetrate between the strands and start corrosion there. The anti-corrosion fluid must be used before each workout, and during training flights, wipe the lines with a dry cotton cloth without any means. Before reeling up the lines, wipe the lines again with a cotton cloth dampened with liquid.
If you are careful about your lines, carefully unwind and rewind them, carefully fasten and unfasten them from the carabiners on the control handle and on the wing, do not step on them, do not cling to the lines when planting on stones on asphalt or tall dense grass, constantly wipe the lines with a cotton cloth from dust and dirt, from castor oil which from the engine will get onto the lines, from moisture with the help of PDMS-20 - your lines will last you a very long time and will give you many good flights and a lot of good mood.
Regards
Ruslan Kurenkov
https://controllineparts.com/lines/191-polydimethylsiloxane.html

Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #164 on: June 15, 2021, 03:27:43 PM »
Hello, friends !
Today I want to inform you about the new lines that we began to produce in the spring, in April of this year. These are brand new brass carbon steel lines with a diameter of 0.0145 inches. (0.38mm) 50 lb. of 3 strands, with a diameter of 0.018 in. (0.45mm) 60 lb. from 4 strands.
The new lines are wound on more convenient plastic reels of a new design in yellow or red.
New brass plated carbon steel lines 0.0145 (0.38mm) and 0.018 (0.45mm) are now available on Amazon in 7 sizes 60.61.62.63.64.65 and 70ft.
Also on Amazon are presented brass lines made of carbon steel with a diameter of 0.0165 (0.425 mm) 50lb. of 4 strands in 8 sizes of lengths 60,61,62,63,64,65,66 and 70 feet and traditional stainless steel lines from MBS with a diameter of 0.015 in. and 0.018 in. in two basic sizes, lengths 60 and 70 feet.
The new brass-plated carbon steel lines consisting of 3 strands 0.38 mm in diameter meet the AMA regulations for F2B models weighing up to 64 oz and work ideally on F2B models flying without vibration using electric motors.
The new brass-plated carbon steel 4-strand 0.45mm line meets AMA regulations for F2B models weighing over 64oz and is ideal for large or heavy F2B models using powerful 75-81 nitro motors.
I wish you many good flights.
Ruslan Kurenkov
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=controllineparts&ref=bl_dp_s_web_18022085011

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #165 on: October 21, 2021, 10:20:28 AM »
I just got in 2 sets of the new 3 strand lines.  I have two questions about these lines.  First the free wire loop on the crimped ends snagged my connectors in testing enough to make me cut them off and start wrapping.  Is there anything different about wrapping this line than any other?  I suspect not other than if the sharpness of the bend folding the wire back is an issue.  Second, I have always looped around the thimble twice.  I don't think this adds strength but it is more secure and makes the wrap easier (for me).  Am I weakening the connection by doing this?

Ken
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Offline dale gleason

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #166 on: October 21, 2021, 01:12:40 PM »
FWIW. I feel the objective of any/all wrapping of line terminations has one objective, to reduce the possibility of creating a stress riser, mainly where the wrapping stops and the actual line begins.

Metal tubes allow that possibility, rounding edges and softer metal (copper, brass, etc) reduce the possibility somewhat.

I prefer copper wire wrapping for leadouts because copper wire can flex somewhat where the lines exit that last wrap. I avoid putting CA/epoxy on the wrapping because it hardens the wrapping, losing the flex, and creates a stress riser. Heat shrink tubing hides ugly wrapping (like mine) yet causes no stress riser.

Finally, I've wrapped leadouts using the AMA illustration since 1956 and never experienced a failure, so I have confidence it works.  As above, FWIW.

dg

 


Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #167 on: October 21, 2021, 01:32:12 PM »
Second, I have always looped around the thimble twice.  I don't think this adds strength but it is more secure and makes the wrap easier (for me).  Am I weakening the connection by doing this?

  Probably not - but I note that the AMA "recommended" method does show two wraps, and not one. If I go out to a field tomorrow, and inspect everyone's lines, what do you suppose I would find?

     I say "recommended" and not required, because while it says "required", the very next sentence "other methods can be used if the CD determines it is just a strong" - which is the justification for the new stunt rule allowing "any construction". The pull test is how the CD determines that the method is "just as strong". We had a pretty lengthy offline discussion about that one with various interested parties, we decided it was OK.

    Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #168 on: October 21, 2021, 03:10:23 PM »
So please clarify, Brett, that your new 10G pull test rule is for the whole package; lines & ends. So other systems than crimping or copper wrapping are ok as long as they pass the pull test?
Sorry for the silly question, I just want to be sure that I got it right.

  Not a silly question, but yes, you can use anything you want as long as it passes a pull test. The side discussion was about whether or not it was necessary to cross-propose the "or construction" part of the proposal which I inadvertenly omitted, the answer was no, that could be resolved without a cross-proposals.

  Note that not specifying the termination was far more important for non-metallic lines than for metallic lines (which we have long since had general agreement about). But it is very likely that people will come up with something better than the AMA "required" knots for Spectra or otherwise, and we don't want to repeat the mistake where we have something stronger/safer, but can't use it because the rules specify something less good.

           Brett

     

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #169 on: October 21, 2021, 03:18:41 PM »
Ruslan -have you tested the various size lines to failure?  If so, what (roughly) will they take? We can handle newtons or kg, and no one will hold you to it, but what is the range of failure tension? It is tempting to use the .0145 lines, but I would probably want to maintain some margin over the pull test to address fatigue.

   Brett

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #170 on: October 21, 2021, 03:31:41 PM »
  Probably not - but I note that the AMA "recommended" method does show two wraps, and not one. If I go out to a field tomorrow, and inspect everyone's lines, what do you suppose I would find?

     I say "recommended" and not required, because while it says "required", the very next sentence "other methods can be used if the CD determines it is just a strong" - which is the justification for the new stunt rule allowing "any construction". The pull test is how the CD determines that the method is "just as strong". We had a pretty lengthy offline discussion about that one with various interested parties, we decided it was OK.

    Brett
I do the double wrap, always have, best way to prevent slippage.  What I was referring to was looping around the grommet.  I had always done an extra loop.  The Ukraine lines are too stiff for that.  The way that they terminate the lines is in my opinion , asking for a hang up. 

Ken 
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #171 on: October 21, 2021, 03:35:47 PM »
Ruslan -have you tested the various size lines to failure?  If so, what (roughly) will they take? We can handle newtons or kg, and no one will hold you to it, but what is the range of failure tension? It is tempting to use the .0145 lines, but I would probably want to maintain some margin over the pull test to address fatigue.

   Brett
The set I just bought (3 wire .0145) are stamped 50lb.  It doesn't state if that is each line or combined.  I think I asked him that once on the older lines and it is "Each".

Ken
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #172 on: October 23, 2021, 07:27:47 AM »
What I was referring to was looping around the grommet. 

      Yes, that's what I was talking about. And the fact that if I go out the the field (which I will, in about an hour) and inspect the lines (standard .018 stranded SS), I bet I would find 99% of them with a single wrap around the eyelet, not double. The AMA "required" termination method - which is really just recommended - shows two wraps.

       I would use pre-made terminations only in the most extreme emergencies, and would cut off factory termination and redo them myself. I have seen far too make factory terminations that were not made properly.

      Brett

Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #173 on: October 23, 2021, 08:32:33 AM »
Ruslan -have you tested the various size lines to failure?  If so, what (roughly) will they take? We can handle newtons or kg, and no one will hold you to it, but what is the range of failure tension? It is tempting to use the .0145 lines, but I would probably want to maintain some margin over the pull test to address fatigue.

   Brett
Hello Brett
I have tested all available lines of different diameters and different materials for rupture.
To do this, I took a piece of a line 5 feet (1.5 m) long, sealed the ends on both sides in different ways, with copper pipes, copper wire, Kevlar (like Lauri) and pulled very slowly, without jerks, attaching one end through a thick wire to a heavy iron table and the other end to the hook of the electronic scale, which showed me the growing weight in kg or lbs. During the destruction of the line, I memorized the readings on the scales.
A 7-core stainless steel line with a diameter of 0.015 collapsed at a load of 11.5 - 12.5 kg, which is 25 - 27 pounds.
The stainless 7-core line, 0.018 in diameter, collapsed at a load of 17.5-18.5 kg, which is 38.5-40.5 pounds.
The line is brass plated, 3-strand, 0.0145 in diameter, collapsed under a load of 22-23 kg, which is 48.5 - 50.5 lbs.
The brass plated 4-strand line, 0.0165 in diameter, collapsed at 23-24 kg load, which is 50.5 - 53 pounds.
The brass plated 4-core line, 0.018 in diameter, collapsed under a load of 27-29 kg, which is 60-64 pounds.
Brass eyelets always start to collapse, stretching into an oval after a load of 24-25 kg, that's 53-55 lbs. With such a load on one line, which is 50 kg or 100 pounds if it is applied to the aircraft through two lines, the metal elements of the aircraft control system are completely destroyed.
I currently only use 0.0145  brass 3 conductor lines. This is the best option for F2B. These are very strong carbon steel lines and are afraid of tight bends unlike the 7 strand stainless lines. I've tested a lot with different line end terminations. This is all on the personal desire of the athlete. There is no difference in strength. There is only a difference in ease of use and manufacturing capabilities. Whoever has what hands are capable of doing so. I wrapped it around the eyelet once or twice. For a brass-plated cable, one revolution is better. At two revolutions, there is a slight backlash, or damping, which leads to rapid destruction after 100-150 flights. For stainless steel wire, it doesn't make a difference, one turn or two, I always only use one loop around the eyelet. Earlier, a very long time ago, more than 7 years ago, I used an end seal as Lauri recommends. Then, when I started using crimping pipes, I realized that it was very simple and quick, after which I stopped using Kevlar or copper wire just to save time. I constantly change the length of the lines, the diameters of the lines, the materials of the lines to find the best option, which leads to a very large number of end closures. With such a volume of work, I am saved by the crimp tubes that have worked perfectly for me for 5 years and more than 2000 flights.
Regards
Ruslan

Offline kevin king

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #174 on: October 24, 2021, 02:37:30 AM »
After seeing this I ran up to the local hobby shop and bought a set of "Sig" 70' x .018 for $12.00.
$12.00? Thats a good deal because Sigs website lists them at $23.40 unwrapped.

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #175 on: October 24, 2021, 07:36:36 PM »
For what it’s worth, I used the same set of Ukraine lines as is, with the crimps for two years and never had an issue during NATS pull tests or any other flights that I had with them.  Now that the new line size rule will be in effect, I plan on changing to the .0165” lines on the current airplane for next year
Matt Colan

Offline Reptoid

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #176 on: October 24, 2021, 08:45:06 PM »
      Yes, that's what I was talking about. And the fact that if I go out the the field (which I will, in about an hour) and inspect the lines (standard .018 stranded SS), I bet I would find 99% of them with a single wrap around the eyelet, not double. The AMA "required" termination method - which is really just recommended - shows two wraps.
      Brett
Wondering where the info you're refering to about "two" wraps around eyelet comes from. Don't see it anywhere in the rulebook. Here's a link to current rules showing two line line construction:   
https://www.modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/Control_Line_General_2019-2021.pdf
Regards,
       Don
       AMA # 3882

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #177 on: October 24, 2021, 11:12:25 PM »
Wondering where the info you're refering to about "two" wraps around eyelet comes from. Don't see it anywhere in the rulebook. Here's a link to current rules showing two line line construction:   
https://www.modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/Control_Line_General_2019-2021.pdf
5.3 figure 3.  Read the instruction.

Ken
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Offline Reptoid

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #178 on: October 25, 2021, 11:33:01 AM »
5.3 figure 3.  Read the instruction.

Ken
Thanks for pointing it out.
 I see it now in step 1 figure 3.   I mostly use crimped sleeves so I didn't notice that on the "wrap" figure
Regards,
       Don
       AMA # 3882

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #179 on: October 25, 2021, 12:33:05 PM »
I am saved by the crimp tubes that have worked perfectly for me for 5 years and more than 2000 flights.
Back to my original question about the large loop around the crimp tube.  I tested my new set of lines and the loop snagged on the line clips quite easily.  Part of that is the flat on the clips that doesn't need to be there and I have ground off.  Why the large loop? I don't like staggering the leadouts.  Makes line changes difficult.

Ken
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #180 on: October 25, 2021, 01:49:15 PM »
Back to my original question about the large loop around the crimp tube.  I tested my new set of lines and the loop snagged on the line clips quite easily.  Part of that is the flat on the clips that doesn't need to be there and I have ground off.  Why the large loop? I don't like staggering the leadouts.  Makes line changes difficult.\

     Why are you using crimps? Of course they snag, that's the problem.

   I note that this, also, is contrary to the AMA "requirements", they show the loop of the free end of the line going through the crimp tube on the inside. Looping it outside is far more secure, but has the problem you noted. That's why *nobody uses crimps*, and why of you buy a set with crimped tubes, you cut off the ends and remake them properly.

     Brett

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #181 on: October 25, 2021, 02:46:55 PM »
     Why are you using crimps? Of course they snag, that's the problem.

   I note that this, also, is contrary to the AMA "requirements", they show the loop of the free end of the line going through the crimp tube on the inside. Looping it outside is far more secure, but has the problem you noted. That's why *nobody uses crimps*, and why of you buy a set with crimped tubes, you cut off the ends and remake them properly.

     Brett
Which is what I do and did.  Something Ruslan typed in one of the posts had me wondering if was safe to wrap the 3 wire lines the same way.  "These are very strong carbon steel lines and are afraid of tight bends unlike the 7 strand stainless lines".  That flip back of the wire for the 2nd wrap is pretty tight bend but without it, well, you might as well just tie a granny knot.  I did it anyway but I noticed that the line really relaxes and loses it's spring with that sharp a bend. 

Ken
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Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #182 on: October 26, 2021, 08:19:51 AM »
Back to my original question about the large loop around the crimp tube.  I tested my new set of lines and the loop snagged on the line clips quite easily.  Part of that is the flat on the clips that doesn't need to be there and I have ground off.  Why the large loop? I don't like staggering the leadouts.  Makes line changes difficult.

Ken
Hello Ken
You have raised a very interesting question for me. The end-of-line seal, which is official from the AMA, is not new to me. In this way, I have been sealing the ends of lines for a long time on order for several athletes. Igor Burger published this technique for sealing the ends of the lines long ago on his website, with a slight difference, he used very thin metal crimping tubes from the needles of medical syringes.
The termination of the ends of the lines with loops, which I am doing now, is the option that I saw on the back of the SIG set as an option for terminating the ends of the lines that is acceptable in the USA. This option was also confirmed to me by several F2B pilots from the USA. But that was a long time ago. And it's never too late to change something. The main thing is not to stand still. Now, when I personally saw the AMA rules document for sealing the ends of the lines, I immediately took the lines, crimping pipes and completely repeated the AMA version that is relevant at the moment. Conducted strength tests today. Line 0.0145 collapses reaching the ultimate strength of 50 lb(23 kg), but at the termination point of the line, everything remains undamaged. I think that this method of terminating the ends of the lines from today will be one of the main ones, as well as the time-tested SIG loop.
In order for the line connections not to cling to each other, we spread them along the length, so that while flying the plane, they do not intersect with each other on a collision course. The difference in the length of the cables coming out of the wing is 5 inches. This is enough so that the fasteners of two different lines do not come into contact with each other and do not get caught.
See the photo in the attachment.
I can make terminated lines for you as the AMA recommends for testing. After that you will write on the forum your impressions of flying on lines with a new termination without loops. To do this, write me the length and diameter of the lines for you. I will send you lines with a new termination without loops in a couple of days for testing. The end result is very important to me.
Regards.
Ruslan Kurenkov.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #183 on: October 26, 2021, 10:03:43 AM »
Hello Ken
You have raised a very interesting question for me. The end-of-line seal, which is official from the AMA, is not new to me. In this way, I have been sealing the ends of lines for a long time on order for several athletes. Igor Burger published this technique for sealing the ends of the lines long ago on his website, with a slight difference, he used very thin metal crimping tubes from the needles of medical syringes.
The termination of the ends of the lines with loops, which I am doing now, is the option that I saw on the back of the SIG set as an option for terminating the ends of the lines that is acceptable in the USA. This option was also confirmed to me by several F2B pilots from the USA. But that was a long time ago. And it's never too late to change something. The main thing is not to stand still. Now, when I personally saw the AMA rules document for sealing the ends of the lines, I immediately took the lines, crimping pipes and completely repeated the AMA version that is relevant at the moment. Conducted strength tests today. Line 0.0145 collapses reaching the ultimate strength of 50 lb(23 kg), but at the termination point of the line, everything remains undamaged. I think that this method of terminating the ends of the lines from today will be one of the main ones, as well as the time-tested SIG loop.
In order for the line connections not to cling to each other, we spread them along the length, so that while flying the plane, they do not intersect with each other on a collision course. The difference in the length of the cables coming out of the wing is 5 inches. This is enough so that the fasteners of two different lines do not come into contact with each other and do not get caught.
See the photo in the attachment.
I can make terminated lines for you as the AMA recommends for testing. After that you will write on the forum your impressions of flying on lines with a new termination without loops. To do this, write me the length and diameter of the lines for you. I will send you lines with a new termination without loops in a couple of days for testing. The end result is very important to me.
Regards.
Ruslan Kurenkov.
I am impressed that you responded so quickly and positively! I really appreciate the offer and I would take you up in a heartbeat but you might want to find another flier on the forum to test.  I damaged my knee Saturday and it may be few weeks or more before I can fly again.  I understand the reason for staggering the leadouts.  I used to do that but stopped when I started wrapping my own.  I like the idea of being able to use a "stock" set of lines in a pinch and as far as I can tell, none of the guys here stagger them either.

Ken
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If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
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Online Dennis Toth

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #184 on: October 26, 2021, 11:03:58 AM »
Ruslan,
Do you have the equivalent to 0.012 x 60'? This would fit our ships that are 35 - 46 engine size (under 64 oz.). Also could use 0.010 x 60' for ships under 40 oz. (Ringmasters, Flite strikes, many OTS ships with Fox 35's).

Best,     DennisT 

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #185 on: October 26, 2021, 12:29:14 PM »
I am impressed that you responded so quickly and positively! I really appreciate the offer and I would take you up in a heartbeat but you might want to find another flier on the forum to test.  I damaged my knee Saturday and it may be few weeks or more before I can fly again.  I understand the reason for staggering the leadouts.  I used to do that but stopped when I started wrapping my own.  I like the idea of being able to use a "stock" set of lines in a pinch and as far as I can tell, none of the guys here stagger them either.

Ken
Get well soon. By the time your knee is completely healthy, your new loopless ends will be waiting for you at home. I want to decide for myself which lines to send you. I think you will be pleased to receive a surprise from me. You don't have to fly to test new lines. The most important thing is to determine the ease of operation of the control system, without snagging, when moving your hand up and down with the new lines set to your plane. Write to me in private messages the length of your lines on which you fly and your home address for delivery.
Regards Ruslan.

Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #186 on: October 26, 2021, 01:04:20 PM »
Ruslan,
Do you have the equivalent to 0.012 x 60'? This would fit our ships that are 35 - 46 engine size (under 64 oz.). Also could use 0.010 x 60' for ships under 40 oz. (Ringmasters, Flite strikes, many OTS ships with Fox 35's).

Best,     DennisT 
Hello Dennis
I have in stock brass plated 3-strand lines with a length of 1000 feet 0.013 inches (0.35 mm) that have been made specifically for me to order for F2C racing. These lines are not yet on the site or in my store on Amazon.
The packaging is not ready for yet, but there are good test results for F2B. These lines work well in very strong winds, they are as strong as 7-strand 0.018 lines, but twice as thin. When flying on them, you will not see the curved sagging line from your control stick going to your aircraft during flight as on 0.018 thick springy lines.
Up to 63 feet in length, they work great. Beginning to reach over 65 feet in length and reduce the speed of command transmission from pilot to aircraft.
I will be able to send you several sets of these lines up to 63 feet long with the new termination system without loop as I did earlier.
Write to me in private messages the length of your lines and your home address for delivery.
Regards Ruslan.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #187 on: October 28, 2021, 06:16:03 AM »
A 7-core stainless steel line with a diameter of 0.015 collapsed at a load of 11.5 - 12.5 kg, which is 25 - 27 pounds.
The stainless 7-core line, 0.018 in diameter, collapsed at a load of 17.5-18.5 kg, which is 38.5-40.5 pounds.

   That's very interesting - whose lines were these (Sullivan/Pylon, from MBS, RSM, etc)?  That is very similiar to what I got in multiple tests with some of the SIG lines I got, but felt "odd" and even sounded strange when moving them around - well under the industry standards for that size lines. This was all a long time ago, but they were definitely different from the wire I got from several other sources just from casual inspection. They failed in a very odd way, I have no idea how, but on a test with full-length lines and s spring-scale tester, they failed in *multiple places* in the middle of the lines. I found a section of about 10 feet in the middle just lying in the grass afterward.

    Both the Sullivan/Pylon and the bulk cable I got from MBS is more like ~45 lbs for the .015s and ~60 lbs for the .018s, which is consistent with the industry standards for 302 stainless steel wire rope. Of course, even the strengths you show are well above the actual load in either a pull test or flight. And yes, it definitely does wreck the eyelets.

   I would also caution anyone doing any sort of test to be *very careful* and take precautions to keep themselves safe. Putting 60 lbs on a cable or high-strength fishing line and then having it break and whip towards you can cause a nasty cut or take out an eye very easily. At 60ish lbs on .018 lines 70 feet long, they might stretch well over  *a foot*, that is a tremendous amount of potential energy, and when it breaks it will go whipping out at very high speeds, and can easily slice you up.

     Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #188 on: October 28, 2021, 06:32:07 AM »
The termination of the ends of the lines with loops, which I am doing now, is the option that I saw on the back of the SIG set as an option for terminating the ends of the lines that is acceptable in the USA. This option was also confirmed to me by several F2B pilots from the USA. But that was a long time ago.

    So, from your first picture - you are splicing the leadouts with a music wire termination, and presumably soldering them?  That looks like a lap splice with a wrap, maybe?  The AMA says nothing about leadouts, but that is quite alarming. I saw that the Yatsenko leadouts are made the same way - but with *only solder holding them*, no wrap.

   What sort of solder (i.e. lead/tin/silver content) are you using, and how to you apply it? I ask because the typical soft solder we use here is *completely inadequate* to do something like that safely and no one here should ever, ever, attempt to use the usual 60/40 or 63/37 soft solder, or the 4% silver-bearing solder/StaBrite in this manner, it WILL NOT hold for long. Anything that has a chance of surviving this application (that I know about in the USA ) would require a torch to heat it and I would still be terrified to count simply on solder to hold it.

    I know from other examples in old radios that at least some of the USSR electronics used some sort of high-temp solder that requires maybe 1100 degrees (F) to melt, meaning it is nearly impossible with standard temp-controlled soldering irons - you can't set them that high. But presumably they didn't assemble radios with a torch.

    Brett

Online frank williams

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #189 on: October 28, 2021, 07:35:52 AM »
Ruslan, Brett
Testing lines and getting any meaningful data cannot be done with a horizontal pull and visually checking the scale as it pops.  The best way I have found is a vertical pull test.  One end of the line with appropriate termination is attached to a hook screwed into the ceiling joist.  About a five / six foot section of line to be tested with a termination on the end, is connected to a suitable size bucket.  A wash bucket ,plastic or metal, your choice.  The length of the line sample is set to such a length that the bottom of the bucket is a couple of inches off the floor.  At this point there is no scale involved.  Now you begin to fill the bucket with sand from the grandsons sandbox (Walmart sells it).  You can preload the bucket with some weights so you don't have to deal with a whole truck load of sand.  Anyway, you slowly add sand.  As you get to the final stages you slow down the addition of sand.  Pop!, it breaks and the bucket, which is only an  inch or so from the floor, drops down.  You now weigh the bucket of sand.  This gives you an accurate estimate of the final break strength of the line.

 ...modified to correct "weight of sand and bucket" ....
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 07:57:45 AM by frank williams »

Online Trostle

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #190 on: October 28, 2021, 07:47:39 AM »
Ruslan, Brett
 You now weigh the bucket of sand and subtract the bucket weight.  This gives you an accurate estimate of the final break strength of the line.


Why is it necessary to subtract the bucket weight?  Is not the bucket weight part of the pull being exerted on the line when the line breaks and why should that not be measured as part of the total weight, just like the weights and sand in the bucket?

Keith

Online frank williams

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #191 on: October 28, 2021, 07:52:11 AM »
Good point ..... Daaaaa ......it was before my coffee

Offline katana

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #192 on: October 28, 2021, 10:17:22 AM »
But what has that achieved other than proving the breaking strain of that short piece of wire? The pull test is surely designed to test the model, its control connections, the lines at flight length inc. terminations + any stretch and hopefully the bit you hold - all for robustness in flight ready condition!

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #193 on: October 28, 2021, 10:23:51 AM »
But what has that achieved other than proving the breaking strain of that short piece of wire? The pull test is surely designed to test the model, its control connections, the lines at flight length inc. terminations + any stretch and hopefully the bit you hold - all for robustness in flight ready condition!


  This would just be for testing the strength of material, in an as-built condition. For actual pre-flight testing of a complete set of lines, you do not pull them until they break, you have a fixed load that will (presumably) not break them.

    But, even then, I do not stand near when someone else is pull-testing to 40 lbs (or whatever) where the load is far less, and the strain (the elongation) is a few inches - and therefore much less potential energy. Unless it is me doing the test!

    Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #194 on: October 28, 2021, 11:31:56 AM »
Brett,
I have never seen Yatsenko-lead outs without copper wrapping.

    The airplane Jim Aron got from Orestes was like that, just a bare lap joint. I think he redid it properly.

Quote
The normal solder (40/60) will work just fine but you must know how to solder properly.

   The internet is a wonderful place.


     Brett

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #195 on: October 28, 2021, 12:07:38 PM »
Maybe solder is OK if you have the skills and know how to bind the lines together without creating a weak spot at the end of the splice or get some corrosion or.....  Why not just wrap them and be done with it.   Personally, I don't let solder anywhere near my control systems from the bellcrank pivot to the handle and I have never had one fail.

On another note, Ruslan has presented us with a golden opportunity.  Thanks to Brett our ridiculous line requirements are no more and we have a line manufacturer who wants to make us happy.  He can only do that if *we* tell him what we want.

What I want is 65', zero weight, zero stretch and zero drag.  Others may be more demanding. LL~

Seriously - Ken
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Offline Ruslan Kurenkov

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #196 on: October 28, 2021, 01:15:23 PM »
    So, from your first picture - you are splicing the leadouts with a music wire termination, and presumably soldering them?  That looks like a lap splice with a wrap, maybe?  The AMA says nothing about leadouts, but that is quite alarming. I saw that the Yatsenko leadouts are made the same way - but with *only solder holding them*, no wrap.

   What sort of solder (i.e. lead/tin/silver content) are you using, and how to you apply it? I ask because the typical soft solder we use here is *completely inadequate* to do something like that safely and no one here should ever, ever, attempt to use the usual 60/40 or 63/37 soft solder, or the 4% silver-bearing solder/StaBrite in this manner, it WILL NOT hold for long. Anything that has a chance of surviving this application (that I know about in the USA ) would require a torch to heat it and I would still be terrified to count simply on solder to hold it.

    I know from other examples in old radios that at least some of the USSR electronics used some sort of high-temp solder that requires maybe 1100 degrees (F) to melt, meaning it is nearly impossible with standard temp-controlled soldering irons - you can't set them that high. But presumably they didn't assemble radios with a torch.

    Brett
Yes it is. In the photo, the parts of the control system are soldered. For soldering, a conventional 60/40 solder is used (60 percent tin and 40 percent lead.) It was not me who soldered, this is the work of Sergii Solomianikov. Sometimes I make lines for Combat F2D for friends. According to the rules of the FAI, the endings of the lines should only be soldered. I have been soldering them myself. For many years. I really love to solder. For good soldering, you need to know a lot of secrets. 8 years ago I flew in F2D, and during a training flight, my partner's plane flew towards me at a speed of 100 mph and hit my lines. The blow was so strong that the control handle was torn from the hand, a strong safety loop made of a nylon rope snapped like a thin thread. My hand was nearly torn off, leaving a scar on my wrist. The controls were completely destroyed and were thrown out of the plane completely. And now the fun part. The lines did not collapse. There were no destructions in the soldering points. Everything collapsed, but not the lines. This is just food for thought. And nothing more. The most important thing is to follow the rules. If soldering is prohibited, it means you cannot solder!

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #197 on: May 01, 2022, 03:55:26 AM »
Hi.

 I thought it might be good to share this.
 I fly quite a lot alone and over wet grass, it's quite rough for the carbon steel lines. (Or any lines, actually) New lines are very nice, but as soon as the brass coating gets worn, corrosion starts and friction goes up quite quickly. You can see the amount of red/brown residue when wiping the lines..
 I think most people use silicone to lubricate the lines. Of course, from purely tribological point of view, it works, and good for them if they are happy with it. But I really dislike the silicone as it tends to contaminate and make slippery everything it's in contact with. That can be a real pain in a** if you are doing some painting work at the same time, for example.
 But anyway, I think I've found a better product; PTFE (Teflon) dry lubricant. Like silicone, it leaves a thin, dry polymer layer over the surface that repels water, dirt and oil very well, and seems to last quite long, too. And it doesn't seem to contaminate everything it touches, like silicone does.
 It's easily available from many suppliers, I think the most common brands are CRC, WD40 and Molykote. I bought CRC as it was the first I found.
 Before applying it to lines, it's best to de-grease the lines well with acetone. First I tried to spray the product to a paper towel and then wipe the lines with it, but I found that quite time consuming. I found it's easier to spray the product quite liberally directly to the line reel and let it dry. Then unroll the lines and burnish the coating with a dry paper towel.
 I really like how it works. Yesterday I flew (IC) all day in calm & rain, just wiping the lines with dry paper between flights. Compared to flying with untreated lines in those conditions, there is a big difference in smoothness, and also a huge difference in the amount of s**t left in paper towel when wiping the lines.
 Highly recommended! L

Offline John Carrodus

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #198 on: May 01, 2022, 01:33:46 PM »
I haven't the will to read copious comments here , it may have been suggested already. I haven't tried myself but will as I have just thought of it. Trout fishing line dressing. I drench with WD 40 and wipe off -if lines get damp or wet. Mostly I wipe with a paper towel sprayed with silicon. Then return with a dry clean paper towel to remove crap. All my lines - except Spectra- are 7 strand stainless. Will let you know how Line Dressing works. ( I know it makes a HUGE difference to casting)

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Ukraine lines
« Reply #199 on: May 01, 2022, 01:42:16 PM »
John,

If you're talking about the WD-40 multi purpose oil. With our lines it's a big no-no, except maybe for storage, as oily lines will quickly attract dust, and dust together with oil makes a great grinding paste.
It has to be dry-lubricant. L


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