TurboCAD

[Matt Colan]

My uncle, knowing that I like sketching out airplanes, stuntships, and having the most mechanical mind in the immediate family bought me turboCAD.  I was genuinely suprised to see it when I opened up the gift.  Now, since I have never used a CAD program before, I was wondering if there are any tutorials (EDIT: specifically to model airplanes) to point me in the right direction (There is a video tutorial provided with it, but I haven't had time to put it in the computer lol).

Thanks in advance

[john e. holliday]

Well there goes the building and flying.   Great for you anyway Matt.  Now come up with that NATS and Worlds winning aircraft.  Most of all keep having fun.  Me I got a pair of sweats to wear around the house.  The wife and family don't like me sitting working on the computor in my scivvies. No airplane wstuff for me this year.

[Phil Coopy]

Mat,

I use turbocad all the time.  Put the tutorial on your machine....it really good.

Phil

[Howard Rush]

That's great, Matt.  If you have recently taken geometry and wondered what use some of that stuff like congruent angles is, you'll see.

[pat king]

Matt,
I don't have any experience with TurboCAD. I have been designing with CAD systems since 1980. Many CAD users have not been taught any discipline in their use of the software. When designing or making a drawing with the CAD system you are not making a picture you are making a precise representation of a design. Many manual drafting instances are simply making the picture. Some CAD draftsman are just making the picture as if they were drawing on the board. That is the completely wrong thing to do with the CAD system. A little discipline applied to the use of the software will give you a better designs and drawings with less trash included in the file, and a file that is much easier to use. You should establish a protocol that you use as the basis for all drawings. Such as all text should be on one layer and one color, centerlines should be on one layer and one color, you should refrain from putting multiple entities on the same layer. For design work you should make each part on its own layer, this will make it infinitely easier to turn parts on and off to clarify the area you want to work in. Drawing on a CAD system is more about manipulating the geometry than drawing it all. As much as possible should be copied or mirrored in a design. Proper discipline says that you must not mirror line segments that cross the mirror line. That is, any line that crosses the mirror line should be one continuous line in the file not two line segments that terminate at the mirror line. One of the reasons for this is the fact that every line in the file carries three pieces of information, each endpoint and the midpoint. Two line segments do not appear to be any different than one continuous line, but they carry twice as much data and therefore just expand the file size for no good reason. Another problem with multiple line segments is the fact that you may inadvertently snap to the end of a line segment instead of the point you're actually wanting to pick up. If you want to discuss this further you can give me a call at 708 – 921 – 6322.

Have fun learning to use the CAD system,  Pat

[Pat Johnston]

Pat makes a supremely important point.  This is a drawing system which has the capacity of being accurate to much closer than we can measure.  Using things like snap to endpoints, intersections, middle of circles,etc is essential to accurate drawings.  Personally, I do not use layers all that much, but do see the advantage for those who like to use them.  That is more of a drawing approach.  I have my own system.  Here is a text I made up for those wanting to "help" me with CADD drawings for use with my laser.  It makes a good guide for laser cutting parts.  You might want to paste it onto a word document for reference to later.  Much will not make all that much sense, now, but will be important when you get more conversant with your system.
Pat Johnston
Design Supervisor
Skunk Works

Laser and ACAD Tricks
2-16-10
The following is a guide for setting up ACAD files for cutting parts on a laser cutter.  The suggestions following facilitate the laser cutting so a minimum of effort is required for both the operator and the laser.
1.    Lay out a rectangle (line 0, color white) which mimics the size of the sheet of wood to be cut.  Then offset the rectangle to the inside by 1/8”.  This is the line which the parts should not go beyond.  This allows for the variation in wood width, and makes it easier to manage this aspect.
2.   ACAD drawing issues are the most important items to follow for ease of laser cutting files.  I do not use layers at all.  So, for the purpose of cutting parts, please do not use layers.  I simply draw with polylines, all on one level.  Absolutely do not draw with the line function, only use the polyline function.  I repeat this because it is very important.  The laser likes polylines, so only use them.  I use line 3, which is “Cyan” in color, for drawing and cutting all parts.  Make sure that all the polyline segments are touching by using “snaps”.  Example:  End point snaps so both ends of lines are touching.  Also, if possible, “join” all lines so they create one entity.  I can do that with ease on ACAD V2007, if necessary, as long as the ends are touching.  The joining to one entity tells the laser to treat the cut as one piece.  This is better for the laser not to jump around and saves cutting time and extends the life of the laser.
3.   If you have the end of a rib which has a very sharp intersection, clip off one side of the V just a little (1/16” to 1/8”) so we do not start a fire.  These little tight acute angles can kindle a fire.  Corners which have a 90 degree intersection are not critical, mostly just acute angles.
4.   If you want the part to stay in the sheet, which is usually handy, figure out a graceful spot to put a break.  The part will need to be cut out later by hand, but that is understood.
5.   Be aware that the laser cuts a line about .006” thick.  When I set up a round hole for something like a 3/8” jig rod, I draw the hole .006” smaller or .369”, so the jig rod slides through smoothly and with as close to zero clearance as possible.  This is true for all parts so if there is a very critical cut which needs to hold a tight tolerance, keep this in mind.  This especially applies to spar cutouts.  They need to be an overall .006” narrower.
6.   The lettering for marking parts is drawn in yellow (line 1).  I have drawn a set of numbers and letters which are not a text file, but rather a line file.  These must be placed on the parts and the color kept as yellow.  The reason for this is the laser is vastly faster (Maybe 10 to 30 times) cutting a line letter instead of text files.  This saves laser cutting time.
7.   Draw all your parts on one sheet.  This is easier as one file sheet just needs to be loaded into the laser and the parts are copied to the cutting board.
8.   I save the files back to V2000.  That is necessary for the laser to be compatible and happy.
9.   Most balsa comes in sizes of 3” X 36”.  The laser bed is limited to 24” X 18”.  If the cutting files use a 3” X 18” format, then this works out very well to simply cut a 36” length into two equal parts.  If 24” is needed, then see if the adjacent 12” piece has something on it so it uses the whole plank efficiently.  Otherwise, there will be a lot of 12” lengths laying around.

[minnesotamodeler]

Fascinating thing about CAD of any kind:  You are drawing full-size, even if it's a house.  You print it out to whatever scale you want to fit any size paper you want, but in the machine it is always full-size.  That's what enables the amazing accuracy. 

TurboCad is a good choice; sort of a poor man's Autocad.

[Geoff Goodworth]

Great stuff Pat et al

However, the laser cutter that I am trying to use runs his machines from CorelDraw.

Does anybody have experience of converting ACAD drawings to cdr format and not having the machine dance all over the placs? The export is fine but if I insert breaks in the polylines in ACAD before exporting, the machine dances around doing different cuts.

Or, is there a simple way to export the CAD drawings to cdr format and then insert the little breaks so that the parts stay in the sheet.

This supplier's output is outstanding but trying to insert the breaks in the Corel drawing is driving me nuts.

I might add that Corel 3 was still current when I started using it but I haven't used Corel since I started using AutoCAD in 2001. I've forgotten more Corel than I now remember.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers, Geoff

[RogerGreene]

Hi Matt,

Hey you got a great gift in TurboCAD. Which version did you get? I been using TurboCAD for a long time. It is a great CAD program. Getting the basics is the first step. Get to know palettes you will use most of the time which are: The Tool Palette, Design Director, and Style Manager. These are the palettes you will use most. In the Tool palette you can put all the snaps, lines, circle, dimensions and text tools. You can also put the tools you will need on your pop-up tool bar, (thats the right click on the mouse button).

Let me know if you need help.

Roger

[Matt Colan]

Hi Matt,

Hey you got a great gift in TurboCAD. Which version did you get? I been using TurboCAD for a long time. It is a great CAD program. Getting the basics is the first step. Get to know palettes you will use most of the time which are: The Tool Palette, Design Director, and Style Manager. These are the palettes you will use most. In the Tool palette you can put all the snaps, lines, circle, dimensions and text tools. You can also put the tools you will need on your pop-up tool bar, (thats the right click on the mouse button).

Let me know if you need help.

Roger

Hi Roger,

I have TurboCAD version 16.  I've started fooling around with it, and it is going to be quite the learning experience for sure!

Pat makes a supremely important point.  This is a drawing system which has the capacity of being accurate to much closer than we can measure.  Using things like snap to endpoints, intersections, middle of circles,etc is essential to accurate drawings.  Personally, I do not use layers all that much, but do see the advantage for those who like to use them.  That is more of a drawing approach.  I have my own system.  Here is a text I made up for those wanting to "help" me with CADD drawings for use with my laser.  It makes a good guide for laser cutting parts.  You might want to paste it onto a word document for reference to later.  Much will not make all that much sense, now, but will be important when you get more conversant with your system.
Pat Johnston
Design Supervisor
Skunk Works

Laser and ACAD Tricks
2-16-10
The following is a guide for setting up ACAD files for cutting parts on a laser cutter.  The suggestions following facilitate the laser cutting so a minimum of effort is required for both the operator and the laser.
1.    Lay out a rectangle (line 0, color white) which mimics the size of the sheet of wood to be cut.  Then offset the rectangle to the inside by 1/8”.  This is the line which the parts should not go beyond.  This allows for the variation in wood width, and makes it easier to manage this aspect.
2.   ACAD drawing issues are the most important items to follow for ease of laser cutting files.  I do not use layers at all.  So, for the purpose of cutting parts, please do not use layers.  I simply draw with polylines, all on one level.  Absolutely do not draw with the line function, only use the polyline function.  I repeat this because it is very important.  The laser likes polylines, so only use them.  I use line 3, which is “Cyan” in color, for drawing and cutting all parts.  Make sure that all the polyline segments are touching by using “snaps”.  Example:  End point snaps so both ends of lines are touching.  Also, if possible, “join” all lines so they create one entity.  I can do that with ease on ACAD V2007, if necessary, as long as the ends are touching.  The joining to one entity tells the laser to treat the cut as one piece.  This is better for the laser not to jump around and saves cutting time and extends the life of the laser.
3.   If you have the end of a rib which has a very sharp intersection, clip off one side of the V just a little (1/16” to 1/8”) so we do not start a fire.  These little tight acute angles can kindle a fire.  Corners which have a 90 degree intersection are not critical, mostly just acute angles.
4.   If you want the part to stay in the sheet, which is usually handy, figure out a graceful spot to put a break.  The part will need to be cut out later by hand, but that is understood.
5.   Be aware that the laser cuts a line about .006” thick.  When I set up a round hole for something like a 3/8” jig rod, I draw the hole .006” smaller or .369”, so the jig rod slides through smoothly and with as close to zero clearance as possible.  This is true for all parts so if there is a very critical cut which needs to hold a tight tolerance, keep this in mind.  This especially applies to spar cutouts.  They need to be an overall .006” narrower.
6.   The lettering for marking parts is drawn in yellow (line 1).  I have drawn a set of numbers and letters which are not a text file, but rather a line file.  These must be placed on the parts and the color kept as yellow.  The reason for this is the laser is vastly faster (Maybe 10 to 30 times) cutting a line letter instead of text files.  This saves laser cutting time.
7.   Draw all your parts on one sheet.  This is easier as one file sheet just needs to be loaded into the laser and the parts are copied to the cutting board.
8.   I save the files back to V2000.  That is necessary for the laser to be compatible and happy.
9.   Most balsa comes in sizes of 3” X 36”.  The laser bed is limited to 24” X 18”.  If the cutting files use a 3” X 18” format, then this works out very well to simply cut a 36” length into two equal parts.  If 24” is needed, then see if the adjacent 12” piece has something on it so it uses the whole plank efficiently.  Otherwise, there will be a lot of 12” lengths laying around.

Thanks Pat!!  And i've been reading the tutorial John Miller started on Stuka Stunt on CAD drawings and I'm starting to learn (slowly) where everything is, what each thing is for, althought I've only used maybe 5 of the tools so far.

I think I should take the drafting class at my school now that I have this!

[Larry Cunningham]

Hi Guys,

Thanks to Pat Johnson for the Laser and Acad tricks. I'm using most of them, but always
learn something.

Here's an idea to help learn CAD "relative to model airplanes". Get hold of a DXF file of
a model similar to what you are interested in - import it into your particular CAD program
(virtually all can import DXFs) and check it out. Zoom in and look closely at what was done
and how. And identify various objects (points, lines, polylines, splines, construction lines,
hatches, text, blocks,..) and how they are actually used. You can learn from the mistakes
and bad practices as well as the good ones in existing drawings.

As CAD jocks will admit, there are various tricks and techniques, some specific to your
CAD program. I would also suggest that you play with an existing drawing, try to customize
it.

Nothing pays like time spent using your software. Try committing to a simple project
and follow it through. I believe Pat Johnson would agree that most of the advice
he lists for ACAD and laser cutter drawings has been gained through direct experience.

Threads in newsgroups like this one are often a good place to get help since it is viewed
and shared widely. Several of us  have created libraries we are willing to share. (I believe
 I still have one posted on the PAMPA web site..) Once something is drawn (well), there is
no real need to draw it again.

Good luck. You'll find that CAD drawing is all about precision detail and reuse. I'll post
some of my own drawings and illustrations.

L.

"I may be a living legend, but that sure don't help when I've got to change a flat tire."
-Roy Orbison

[RogerGreene]

Hey Matt,

I too have TurboCAD 16. Mine is Pro version.

Here is a tip that I had to learn first to keep the drawing in the right X,Y, Z orientation. When panning in a drawing you can use the icons under the drop down View or you use the the mouse wheel to pan around in the drawing, but be sure to hold down the ctrl and shift keys together to stay in 2D other wise the drawing will not be the proper X,Y,Z orientation. To get back to the X,Y,Y orientation hold down ctrl and then type W.

Hope this helps.

Roger

[proparc]

Hi Guys,

Thanks to Pat Johnson for the Laser and Acad tricks. I'm using most of them, but always
learn something.

"I may be a living legend, but that sure don't help when I've got to change a flat tire."
-Roy Orbison

Larry, do you have the OS 46 LA file in DFX or DWG?
Thanks

[Tim Wescott]

Hi Roger,

I have TurboCAD version 16.  I've started fooling around with it, and it is going to be quite the learning experience for sure!

Thanks Pat!!  And i've been reading the tutorial John Miller started on Stuka Stunt on CAD drawings and I'm starting to learn (slowly) where everything is, what each thing is for, althought I've only used maybe 5 of the tools so far.

I think I should take the drafting class at my school now that I have this!

There's two really important things to realize when you're spinning up on a tool like this:

First, having a tool like this is like having a car.  You remember how long it took to learn how to drive?  And you know how long it takes to walk a mile.  So if you don't know how to drive and the only thing you need to do is walk a mile once, you'd just walk.  But you know you're going to be walking that mile all the time, so it makes the investment in learning how to use the tool worthwhile.

So don't get discouraged if it takes a while to pick it up -- after you learn it, it will help you.  The first time you decide that you love everything about a plane except that the wing needs to be moved over one inch -- all that effort will pay off.

Second, don't think you have to do everything in the tool.  You still walk around the mall after you drive there, right?  It's the same with a CAD tool -- you'll have a desk littered with hand sketches when you're designing, either because you needed to figure out what looks good, or to figure out how to 'talk' to the tool.

So don't throw away those pencils!

Good luck with it -- and do take that class if you have time.  Even if they only taught pencil & paper drafting (does anyone teach that anymore?) they'll still teach you the "language" of drafting.

[Larry Cunningham]

Hi Milton,

Yes, I do. I've forwarded them to you.

Best,

L.

"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it." -Clint Eastwood

[RogerGreene]

Matt,

Use the TurboCAD forums too if you have a problem. There are a lot of users there that can help with any drafting problem you might have. Its just like Stunthanger forum.

Roger

[GGeezer]

Matt,
Learning CAD can at first be agonizingly slow but take heart, the learning curve gets steeper quite rapidly.
The big problem is that you have to first find the tools and then figure out what they are used for and then how to use them.
Unfortunately, CAD software is mostly written by computer geeks, with poor social and communication skills, who assume that you know what they are talking about. It would also be nice if they had taken some manual drafting classes. Any of you "old school" types who have tried to use the sketching program in Autocad Inventor will know what I'm talking about  !

The approach that has worked best for me is to try to do a simple project that interests you and one which you can see the final results in your mind so that you have a clear goal to strive for, say like a hand launched glider or a simple sheet balsa 1/2 A control liner.

Good luck and be assured that once you have mastered this technology you will wonder how you ever got along without it.

Orv.

[don Burke]

I agree 100% with "The approach that has worked best for me is to try to do a simple project that interests you and one which you can see the final results in your mind so that you have a clear goal to strive for, say like a hand launched glider or a simple sheet balsa 1/2 A control liner."

On a completely new project I usually start with a paper sketch to get me started.  CAD is so neat for revising, copying, and scaling I haven't made a "real" drafted drawing in many years.  My drafting table turned into a junk pile so I finally recyled it and used the space in my office for a computer desk and an easy chair and TV for when I get tired of playing with the computer. 

I've found that even after going through the tutorials unless one has a real need to make a drawing they don't really help a lot until you try to do one for real.  Also jumping from one program to another is NOT seamless.  The learning curve starts all over again.  So jump into TURBOCAD and make a lot of drawings.

I have been using one program for over 20 years, through all it's revisions, upgrades, etc.  Now that the vendor is no longer supporting it I've tried to switch over to another one but the learning curve is very steep.  The one I'm using has a unique file format but will save my drawings in several others, DXF, DWF, DWG, etc so I really don't need to change.  That is until when and IF it totally crashes!

[steven yampolsky]

Larry,

This looks like Solidworks or ProE. Are you messing with MoBest again!? I always wanted to see how far one can take laser cutting with stunt models.



Matt,

I also have TurboCAD. Stoli Special had its geodesic ribs done in CAD and laser cut. Rick Campbell and Bill Hummel's Eurostyle had fuse formers laser cut as well. I am still trying to figure out how to loft a wing shape and then "slice" up ribs for perfect shapes. For tutorials, try CAD Digest : http://www.caddigest.com/subjects/turbocad/tutorials.htm

[Howard Rush]

I calculated the ribs with Excel and entered the numbers in my 2D CAD program, then passed it through TurboCAD to make polylines for the laser cutter.  This is not the easiest way to do it. 

[don Burke]

A couple of years ago I had PROFILI from Italy, very nice airfoil program with a large library of airfoils, makes DXF or DWG files for direct use.  The basic was free download if I remember correctly and $10 got you an advanced version that would allow insertion of spars, sheeting, LEs and TEs, and wing planform to get tapered airfoil sections.  Worked really good but that was a couple of computers ago.