stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Avaiojet on July 02, 2018, 10:49:36 AM
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I've been producing and selling vinyl graphics to the R/C community, specializing in large Warbirds, scale, and aerobatics for well over 20 years.
Time flies doesn't it?
I also sell vinyl graphics to some modelers in the CL community.
Some models, sporting CFC Graphics, have actually placed at the NATs. A good thing. Placing at the NATs that is.
When asked what they weigh, I generally say, "Not that much at all."
Understandably, when placed on large Warbirds or 3D models with wingspans well over 100" it doesn't make all that big a difference.
On small CL models? Possibly so. Possibly?
Well, I decided to do a weight test just to be sure AND to have the information available for anyone who might ask.
I cut three 12" x 12" pieces of vinyl and removed them from the 'contact' paper.
Crumbled into a ball each weighed exactly 10g.
So simple math, a 36" x 12" piece of vinyl would weigh 30g.
Interesting thing is, the entire sheet isn't being used or applied! Lettering, checks or graphics, much of the material is removed and only a small percentage is applied to the model.
The ARGO 2 has plenty of vinyl graphics, but the graphics do not represent a complete large sheet, only bits and pieces you could say.
My Brodak ARF Pathfinder, built out of the box with no improvements, weighs 55 oz. and change.
The Pathfinder has applied vinyl graphics also.
The ARGO 2 weighs in at 54 oz. and change.
Looks to me like vinyl graphics are worth their weight in gold.
You decide?
Charles
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Crumbled into a ball each weighed exactly 10g.
So simple math, a 36" x 12" piece of vinyl would weigh 30g.
Interesting thing is, the entire sheet isn't being used or applied! Lettering, checks or graphics, much of the material is removed and only a small percentage is applied to the model.
The ARGO 2 has plenty of vinyl graphics, but the graphics do not represent a complete large sheet, only bits and pieces you could say.
My Brodak ARF Pathfinder, built out of the box with no improvements, weighs 55 oz. and change.
The Pathfinder has applied vinyl graphics also.
The ARGO 2 weighs in at 54 oz. and change.
Looks to me like vinyl graphics are worth their weight in gold.
I don't think anyone considers the weight of the vinyl "graphics" AKA stickers to be significant, and everyone already knows it doesn't weigh that much, even when it's applied in "50's Route 66 Billboard" quantities.
What does cause weight buildup is trying to clear over the stickers sufficiently to bury the edges, since they are so thick. It can be done, to some extent, but it's much easier to get masks made by David Powers or one of the other stunt suppliers, and then paint them - which can be nearly weightless, also thin, also with easily-sanded edges. Also decals (as more-or-less pioneered by Phil Granderson) are also almost weightless and also have easily-buried edges. The one limitation is that you can't print white on them, but that can be worked around pretty easily.
It's also possible to have dry-transfer lettering custom made to specifications, although it is expensive, but it also is very easily buried. Dry transfer is going out of style for drafting so it is very difficult to find anymore at local stores, although almost anything that ever existed can still be ordered, as long as you don't care how much it costs.
Stickers work very well on Monokote and other single-layer applications, and it's pretty much the only option.
Brett
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I send 'paint masks' out all the time, but that's not what this Thread is about.
It was mentioned in the Forum how 'heavy' vinyl graphics are, so my efforts were to bring attention to exactly what they weighed without guesswork. Besides, 'masks' could be called 'apples' when applied graphics could be called 'oranges.' Two very different things and totally different applications.
Vinyl is .002 thick and I would imagine a slight 'bump' would be felt by the finger.
The ARGO 2 at 54 oz. has hardly a bump with one light coat and one coat only a bit heavier, but not all that heavy a coat. The ARGO 2 wasn't built or finished for competition, just building and finishing pleasure. Hard to imagine.
You'll have to ask the NATs Champions, who have used my vinyl graphics on their winning models about clear coats, bumps on the edge and judging?
4,900 people in the Forum and so few compared to NATs participants, so, I direct all my Threads in that direction.
Interestingly, there have been many R/C modelers who compete also and have won awards sporting CFC Graphics.
Here's an example of a modeler who elected to use 'paint masks' instead of applied vinyl. Notice his scale rivets, he takes his building and finishing serious.
I gotta add something to this.
When I painted the 007 Skyfall Flite Streak, I didn't sand any paint edges. The model, as you can see, is loaded with both, paint masks AND applied vinyl.
Sure, I applied the clear heavy on the second coat.
All edges feel the same. Smooth but it is obvious there's a slight bump but not what I would call an edge.
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I don't think 0.002" vinyl is going to degrade the flying ability, except for maybe 1/2A planes. I sometimes use vinyl, but can't seem to get the bubbles to stay down. Then they pop up again in the hot sun.
For serious work, I use paint masks. More difficult, and no room for error.
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I don't think 0.002" vinyl is going to degrade the flying ability, except for maybe 1/2A planes. I sometimes use vinyl, but can't seem to get the bubbles to stay down. Then they pop up again in the hot sun.
For serious work, I use paint masks. More difficult, and no room for error.
I don't know what kind of vinyl you're using?
I can tell you bubbles flatten out over a short period of time in the sun and go away. If you don't believe me walk up to any FedEx truck. You won't see any bubbles.
I actually had the FedEx account years ago. They would mail out 'their' graphics for sign guys to apply regionally. Some vinyl sheets were 3' x 5'. Impossible to apply without hundreds of bubbles, and as I said, they all go away.
I don't recommend a 'drop of soap' mixed with water to apply. There is expensive professional stuff but watered down Windex is fine.
Here's a couple of large models sporting really large CFC Graphics and there are no bubbles.
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This model is a tad smaller than most of the models I do, but the graphic covers a large area.
I've done the Red Bull a few times.
Anyone care to see large scale Warbirds? ;D
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I send 'paint masks' out all the time, but that's not what this Thread is about.
It was mentioned in the Forum how 'heavy' vinyl graphics are, so my efforts were to bring attention to exactly what they weighed without guesswork. Besides, 'masks' could be called 'apples' when applied graphics could be called 'oranges.' Two very different things and totally different applications.
Vinyl is .002 thick and I would imagine a slight 'bump' would be felt by the finger.
The ARGO 2 at 54 oz. has hardly a bump with one light coat and one coat only a bit heavier, but not all that heavy a coat. The ARGO 2 wasn't built or finished for competition, just building and finishing pleasure. Hard to imagine.
You'll have to ask the NATs Champions, who have used my vinyl graphics on their winning models about clear coats, bumps on the edge and judging?
But whereever would I find a NATS Champion around my area? Or 20 point appearance award winners?
Which NATS CL Stunt National Champions used your stickers? I know where David gets his paint masks (David Powers), not sure about Paul Walker, I used masks from Jim Snelson (although I am not entirely sure where they came from, maybe not him) or David Powers. Not sure where Orestes got his, or Doug, but they sure looked like paint to me.
Jim "20 point buns" Aron made his own paint masks (since I saw him cutting them). PTG uses either paint masks or decals. Windy used masking tape of various types. So that seems to cover a lot of NATS wins and 20 point airplanes. Geno can tell us how he masked the Mariner. I think that close to covers it for the past
I guess I hadn't seen anyone trying to assert that the stickers were too heavy. What is heavy is excess paint, excess glue, and bad workmanship. The edge issue is livable unless you are trying to beat The Usual Suspects in appearance judging, and when clear is not used, you sure aren't going to be doing that. Even paint leaves an edge, but the film thickness of a single coat of black dope or back epoxy is well under .001, unless you overdo it.
Brett
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Now I know why I never got my license number graphics that were promise many years ago. I'm not a big name NATS stunt pilot. HB~>
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When finishing my Aeroshell T-6, I bought two sets from Callie Graphics. One set just for balling all the stickers up and weighing. Don’t know how thick but everything came to a half ounce. They took clear well and don’t bubble. Plus Callie is reasonably priced and cool to work with.
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4,900 people in the Forum and so few compared to NATs participants, so, I direct all my Threads in that direction.
Charles,
In order to yet again get pictures of your models and others that use your graphics, which can be argued as impressive, you missed completely what Bret was talking about. He was talking about the bump that can be felt/seen with vinyl graphics unless many coats of some overcoat are used to minimize that bump. He was talking about stunt enthusiasts who desire a certain finish on their models without the vinyl bumps. There are many such enthusiasts who are not competitors at the Nationals but still strive for that degree of finish. Bret is not criticizing your products. He is just explaining that some may find their use to be undesirable for their needs, including Nats finalists, Nats competitors and many non-Nats participants.
Now, I can mention one area where I find the use of vinyl graphics to be completely satisfactory for even top level, competitive Stand Off Scale models. When the judges cannot get within a certain distance of the model, it makes little difference if the markings are vinyl applications because they cannot see or feel the bumps. Now, there may be a those Stand Off Scale builders who will still find the bumps to be objectionable, just like many stunt enthusiasts, whether they compete at the Nats or not.
Keith
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Bret is not criticizing your products. He is just explaining that some may find their use to be undesirable for their needs, including Nats finalists, Nats competitors and many non-Nats participants.
Of course. I have no idea whether CFC Graphics are any good or not, never saw one. And I certainly never heard of anything not using stickers because they are too heavy, the total area is far too small to make any consequential difference (as noted above). Excess weight is caused by too much paint and other bad craftsmanship practices, not by the lettering.
Brett
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Gentlemen,
You may already know this, but you're wasting your time trying to explain sense and logic here. HB~>
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Gentlemen,
You may already know this, but you're wasting your time trying to explain sense and logic here. HB~>
LOL!
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Well I now have another description to add behind my name. Mr. Fernandez has his list of people and now I would like to know who is the number one TROLL. At my age it is getting harder to be number one at any thing. Since I've lost weight the ladies don't rub my belly and call me Santa any more. Also I do fly my planes and usually don't about the weight of the plane. #^ #^ #^ #^
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Why is it that the same 3 or 4 people are always turning Stunt Hanger into a$$ Hole hanger? Really,if you don't like him leave him alone. I am a beginner who can't complete the whole pattern and I respect the opinions I see on here but no-one needs to see the crap you post against this guy!
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Hey Charles
Thanks for info. I essentially ignore the weight of graphics - even on 1/2A's - and your data here supports that.
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I guess my "bubbles" are the result of using inferior vinyl products. Maybe CFC Graphics is the way to go!