Dyed Silkspan

[Larry Fernandez]

I have always loved the look of dyed silkspan on classic and old time planes.
In the past, I have dyed with Rit Dye and have been quite pleased the results, however after a year or so, the color fades so that the bottom looks great but the top of the plane looses most of its color.

What can one do to preserve the color of dyed silkspan? I'm building a Dick Mathis Chizzler and want to dye the wings and tail feathers in red, But I don't want to see the color fade out.

I'm hoping Uncle Mikey and some of the old free flighters will chip in here.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Mike Scholtes]

This is a different Uncle Mikey, but I am an old free flighter. This may not be exactly what you want but how about Japanese tissue over silkspan or other primary covering, maybe Polyspan for durability? I have doped Japanese tissue on 30-year-old models that still looks like new. One problem is that tissue tends to come in smaller sheets rather than rolls. J&M Hobbies has the real deal stuff and can order more.

[Mike Keville]

This is the REAL Uncle Mikey.

Whatever you do, DON'T use Rit dye.  Back in the late '60s/early '70s I used it on a few A/1 and A/2 towline gliders.  Bad mistake!  After a few outings at Taft and Elsinore the red and maroon quickly faded to an ugly gray.

Some folks had much better luck with analine dye (not sure what that is)....while Bill Hummel and others had great results with Higgins ink (Bill, please check in).

[Don Hutchinson AMA5402]

Another approach would be to put the dye in clear dope and spray until you get it the way you want it. I think there has been good success using dye (toner) from auto paint suppliers. English Color? That the right name? That way you could make a test panel and perfect your technique. Those who have done this will probably be posting here with their experience soon.
Another old free flighter from the 60's.

[Mike Scholtes]

An example you can see locally is the Imitation Plus series by Larry Wong using yellow Higgins drawing ink in clear dope. Colorfastness seems good several years after application. Not sure how darker colors would hold up. Sprayed over polyspan. No primer. Result is translucent, even transparent, allowing structure to be visible. Of course you need to be a decent builder to pull that off ...

[Shawn Lenci]

My question is how hard is it to make the color look uniform?  If you spay it heavy in one area is it darker (more solid) looking?

Shawn

[Steve Helmick]

First off, I wouldn't suggest silkspan. It tends to split in a few years. Polyspan is the way to go.

As for 'dyed silkspan', you can use just a bit of pigmented dope mixed into clear dope. If I can find the picture of Mike Haverly's Barnstormer, you'll like it. I can't tell the difference, and I've done and seen lots of dyed tissue and done dyed silkspan on my own Mathis Excalibur. You really don't want to do that!!! Well, I found a picture of Ed Ruane's Zilch X. You do not have to make it that opaque. Ed says he uses about 10% pigmented dope/90% clear. Mike said he just added a little orange at a time until it started looking "orange" and started spraying. Spray spanwise, then chordwise, spanwise then chordwise. Don't forget which way you went last, and when you are happy with the tint, stop. And of course, you could use just a little pinch or two of dry pigment from the auto paint store mixed in clear.

Pete Peterson, the master of transparent finishes, uses dye from House of Kolor...I'm sure you've heard of them! If he has a goober in a place that needs to be "clear", he paints that area with balsa colored pigmented dope, then follows with the dyed clear. Call or email him for details, of course. Phone is a bit frustrating, 'cause his hearing is even worse than mine!  Steve

[Larry Renger]

Higgins Fadeproof ink dissolved in Denatured alcohol and sprayed on with a Preval Sprayer (that you never use for another color again). Spray, allow to dry, turn it reversed and spray again.  Keep going 'till you get the color you want.  Then put more of the ink in the thinner you use with the dope.

[Mike Haverly]

No Steve, my Chizler was done with Polyspan and finished with House of Kolors candy apple dye, in this case Orange (Tangerine).  The trim colors were all Randolph and clear coated with Omni two-part clear polyurethane, AKA "death paint".  Unfortunately it had an untimely end at last year's Golden State Championships.

[Steve Helmick]

No Steve, my Chizler was done with Polyspan and finished with House of Kolors candy apple dye, in this case Orange (Tangerine).  The trim colors were all Randolph and clear coated with Omni two-part clear polyurethane, AKA "death paint".  Unfortunately it had an untimely end at last year's Golden State Championships.

Mike, I wrote Barnstormer, not Chizler. I know you used HOK dyes later, but pigment's probably less trouble, easier to clean out of the gun, and not that much weight. Also depends on what you have layin' around the shop vs. got to order, pay shipping (and maybe HAZMAT or ORM?) and wait for it to arrive. I bet Larry has a bit of red dope or can get a bit of red pigment at the local auto paint store.  Steve

[BYU]

What about sticking with your old favorite transparent Monocote?

[Jim Thomerson]

I've been using dye from Aerodyne, red, yellow, and orange, added to dope, not too much, and brushing over same color silk.  Comes out looking good.  No doubt spraying would work better.

[Larry Fernandez]

Thanks for all of your replies and advice.
So much was written about dyes in the clear(which I've never done). In addition to that, do I still want to dye the silkspan?

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Larry Renger]

I believe that having the dye in the base fiber is better. I did a red dyed dope over red silk job that came out fantastic!

My current project will have transparent yellow Microlite film over yellow dyed Polyspan. No dope except to bond the tissue to the framework.

[FLOYD CARTER]

As others have reported, a nice transparent color is possible simply by mixing a SMALL amount of colored dope into clear.  It must be sprayed for even color.  2 or 3 coats.

I have a large supply of analine dye powder.  Called "orasol brilliant scarlet" by CIBA.  Dissolve in lacquer thinner, strain, and add to clear dope.

Contact me if you are interested in some.

Floyd

[Mike Haverly]

Steve, sorry   It was late (for me) when I made that post and I've had some other stuff going on.   Yes, the Barnstormer is done with Randolph orange mixed in with clear.  Putting dye in clear dope would be my last choice.  I've tried it and is hard to keep any consistency between applications.  With dope it only needs one more coat to match what is already there.  Just my opinion, everyone uses what is easiest for them.

[Jim Kraft]

I have done several planes with a little yellow mixed in with clear dope on medium silkspan. All done with a brush. Both of these planes were done over 15 years ago, have been flown a lot, and still look great. I always hear these storys that silkspan will crack and all, but I have planes that are 20 years old that still look good with no repairs to the span. I do brush most of my planes but I don't think that really makes a difference. Silkspan stands up very well for me anyway.

[Steve Helmick]

Steve, sorry   It was late (for me) when I made that post and I've had some other stuff going on.   Yes, the Barnstormer is done with Randolph orange mixed in with clear.  Putting dye in clear dope would be my last choice.  I've tried it and is hard to keep any consistency between applications.  With dope it only needs one more coat to match what is already there.  Just my opinion, everyone uses what is easiest for them.

Mike, I thought the orange pigmented looked better on the Barnstormer than the Chizler's dyed finish. The latter was a bit blotchy.

Larry...POLYSPAN!!!! Silkspan isn't what it once was. Save it for fuselages, but nowhere that is likely to warp or split.  Steve

[Larry Fernandez]

Mike, I thought the orange pigmented looked better on the Barnstormer than the Chizler's dyed finish. The latter was a bit blotchy.

Larry...POLYSPAN!!!! Silkspan isn't what it once was. Save it for fuselages, but nowhere that is likely to warp or split.  Steve

Hi Steve, thank you so much for your advice.
I have to admit , I have never used poly-span  and I fear change.
I have heard horror stories about Poly-span getting fuzzy if you sand through, and I get carried away with the sand paper at times.
I don't know if you have seen my finishes, but I will not be happy with a finish unless it is absolutely perfect. If I paint the plane I'm sure I can fix the fuzzies and paint over it, but with a translucent finish that I plan on, I don't know that I can pull it off with Poly-Span.

Another question that I have, is can Poly-span be dyed the way that I dye silkspan?

I thank you all for your input, and as I procede with the finish, I will post the progress.

Thanks again.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Larry Fernandez]

I have done several planes with a little yellow mixed in with clear dope on medium silkspan. All done with a brush. Both of these planes were done over 15 years ago, have been flown a lot, and still look great. I always hear these storys that silkspan will crack and all, but I have planes that are 20 years old that still look good with no repairs to the span. I do brush most of my planes but I don't think that really makes a difference. Silkspan stands up very well for me anyway.

Hi Jim, did you dye the silk-span before you put it on, If so what did you dye it with?

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Steve Helmick]

"Another question that I have, is can Poly-span be dyed the way that I dye silkspan?"

Well, you can't dye Polyspan, you just spray dyed clear or (lightly) pigmented clear over it until it's as dark as you want it. Similarly, you could do the same with silkspan, but most dye it in the bathtub. Some let it dry, then wet it again to apply. Why do that? Having seen Mike's Barnstormer, I assure you that you can't tell it's pigment vs. dye, or vs. silkspan.

You really should call Pete Peterson and talk to him. Let me know if you need his number. I don't think he's in the Tacoma book. He uses Polyspan and won't use silkspan anymore. His work is just plain impeccable, as you probably know. Another good source of info would be Tom Morris; he could also be your source for the Polyspan. One of the keys is getting the stuff on right side up. That's a major help, and it's not blatantly obvious which side that is. There are some tips for fixing the fuzzies, including CA and 1000 grit.  Steve

[Mike Keville]

"...You really should call Pete Peterson and talk to him. Let me know if you need his number..."
Steve

=========================================================

Concur, 100%  Pete's dyed clear finishes are museum-quality.  The models he exhibits at the VSC and elsewhere must be seen to be believed.  Track him down (see Steve's offer above) and ask him.  He has no secrets and is very helpful.

[Larry Renger]

You most certainly CAN dye Polyspan.  I have a thread on it. Dilute your dye (Transtint, or Higgins Fadeproof ink, for instance) in Denatured alcohol and spray it on.  Do it before you cover, of course, or the bonding dope will be a barrier to penetration.

[Jim Kraft]

No, I did not use any dye. I just mixed a little yellow dope in the clear. It only seems to work well with yellow for me. If I sprayed it other colors would probably work OK also. It does make a nice translucent finish that will not fade. I did try some orange plastic dye on a plane a few years ago. I added it to clear dope and sprayed it on. It looked great for a few months, and then started turning purple, so brushed orange dope over it and cleared it. I did dye the silkspan on my Taurus with coffee to give it that old tan look. That was over 15 years ago and it still looks good. I will try tea next.

[Bill Hummel]

FWIW, we've not had success long-term with dyeing silkspan.  We do like using Higgins Fade proof ink in clear butyrate, or as others have said, a little color dope in clear.  Both seem to make nice translucent finishes which stand up to the northeast sun for years. Two or three sprayed light coats does a uniform finish, then a couple more clear coats to seal.  We've shared this info many times, with only one or two "complaints" for feedback...