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Author Topic: Trim question  (Read 1549 times)

Offline Terry Bentley

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Trim question
« on: August 09, 2017, 05:32:14 AM »
I have a trim question. I'm flying a Twister with a Brodak 40 on it the cg is real close to what the plans call for in upright flight the plane is rock solid but in inverted flight it hunts. Any suggestions?

Offline Kim Doherty

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Re: Trim question
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2017, 05:54:49 AM »
I have a trim question. I'm flying a Twister with a Brodak 40 on it the cg is real close to what the plans call for in upright flight the plane is rock solid but in inverted flight it hunts. Any suggestions?

How do you hold your handle when you are inverted vs upright?
Kim

Offline Terry Bentley

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Re: Trim question
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2017, 06:14:40 AM »
I hold it up right like I do for upright flight It feels natural that way to me.

Offline Kim Doherty

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Re: Trim question
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2017, 08:26:58 AM »
Is this a short period oscillation or does the nose seem to gradually drift down and needs picking up?

Offline Terry Bentley

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Re: Trim question
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2017, 08:29:29 AM »
It seem to drift down .

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Trim question
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2017, 09:22:22 AM »
If it's hunting around level in one attitude but not the other, then it's almost certainly either a trim bias issue or a mechanical issue.  I say "almost certainly" because there's a bazzilion things that could be wrong, but those two are most likely.  If it's a mechanical issue, no trim in the world will make it go away entirely, and any trim that makes it go away somewhat will be wronger than wrong.

In the shop, make absolutely sure that the controls are completely free.  The surfaces should fall down from their own weight, when the airplane is level (upright or inverted), and the weight of the pushrod should pull the thing into "down" with the nose down, and "up" with the nose up.  Then make sure that there is minimal slop in the controls.  "Minimal" is a hard word to pin down, but if you hold the flaps and very lightly try to wiggle the elevator, you shouldn't see no free movement of the elevator at all.  Up to +/- 1/16" on the trailing edge of the elevator of a Twister is probably OK, but none is better.  If you're a good mechanic you know that "no friction" and "no slop" are mutually exclusive -- but you should be striving to get as close as you can.

I'm not sure at what point you'll want to cut into your airplane to fix things -- I usually figure that if I can grab the leadouts and slowly move the controls through their entire range without feeling any "sticky", and if the elevator isn't flopping around independently of the flaps, then I'll leave well enough alone.

If this isn't right, there's no point in moving on -- you could spend a lifetime (probably the plane's) trying to dodge around the problem with no luck at all.

If the controls are free, check to see if it feels neutral in both upright and inverted.  If you're comfortable in upright but fighting to keep it up inverted, it'll hunt.  To some extent you can fix this by biasing the handle down.  In the extreme you'll get it so that it hunts upright and flies smoothly inverted.  If the best you can do is to get medium-weight hunting in both upright and inverted, you may want to consider moving the CG back.  Unless the plane is a real dog, you should be able to arrive at a trim arrangement that gives you effortless level flight both upright and inverted.  If you're there except that there's some swooping up and down with the wind (i.e., low on one side of the circle, high on the other) then move on.

Consider taping the hinge lines.  I suspect this isn't your problem, but then I don't know how advanced a pilot you are -- my "terrible hunting" may be your "almost imperceptible hunting", or visa-versa.

If I go farther, I'm just going to do a poor imitation of Paul Walker's trimming method -- so read one of Paul's many articles on the subject of trimming.  Go here.  Start at the earliest article (at the bottom), work your way up to the latest.  Work is the operative word -- it's not all fun boring holes in the sky and chatting with friends -- but your plane will fly better for it.  Even if you just go through his bench-trim procedure and do a half-assed job of the first few steps of the in-flight stuff you'll be miles ahead of flying an as-built plane.
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Trim question
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2017, 11:08:57 AM »
Also, funny note.... what's your lap times? I've noticed when I fly too fast inverted, I'm not as steady as I am upright.

Offline Kim Doherty

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Re: Trim question
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2017, 11:24:33 AM »
OK, last question before we do something about this. Mark/measure where the CofG should be on the model. Balance the model and tell us how far ahead or behind you are.

I also want you to think about how you walk the circle both upright and inverted. Do you walk towards the model or back pedal away from it in both directions?

Also, do you hold your arm fairly straight out from the shoulder or do you drop your arm down and bend at the elbow like an "L"?

Kim

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Trim question
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2017, 11:49:28 AM »
I'm seeing where Kim is going with this...I think. I have sometimes noticed that, when flying a new plane or even a new set of lines on an old one, I might lower the handle when inverted, trying to get the plane to fly inverted a little lower. The mechanics of this are that it won't happen...it will probably fly higher inverted. Keep your handle up in the same place, hopefully up in front of your chin, elbow bent about 90 degrees. Posture helps. "Dry flying" will help your posture.

Generally, IF the model wants to "groove" at a different altitude upright vs. inverted, a neutral adjustment will fix it. Hopefully, you're using a "straight up" hard-point handle. A 1/16" longer clip might fix it.

I have previously posted about my old SV-11, which wanted to leap into the air...I thought it grooved fine and at the same height both upright and inverted, but my Expert flying buds said to change the neutral. I was reluctant but eventually did change to a 1/16" longer clip (hardpoint handle) and suddenly all was right with the world. These simple trim changes seem pretty subtle, but can make a huge difference.  D>K Steve   
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 06:48:49 PM by Steve Helmick »
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Trim question
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2017, 03:15:05 PM »
Take out some tip weight.  I have no theoretical justification for this, but a guy with a reputation in these parts for trimming suggested this to me when my airplane tended to dive in inverted flight.  That fixed it. 
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Trim question
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2017, 05:34:13 PM »
Terry,
As Kim recommended I think you need to set the CG and the leadout position to the position on the plans. Next make sure there is no binding in the controls with the ship upright and inverted. Check the leadouts for drag if they are either angled forward or rearward position. Fly the ship and look down the lines and see if it looks like they are pulling the leads backward. If the ship still drifts, start moving the leadouts rearward 1/8" at a time and see if it helps. I had a similar problem on my Stuka that had solid leadouts and as I moved the leads back the drifting calmed down. I wound up just a little farther back then LineIII predicted (about 3/4" back of the CG).

Best,    DennisT

Offline Terry Bentley

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Re: Trim question
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2017, 10:07:39 AM »
Thamk you everyone for your input I now have some things to check. Sorry it took so long for me to reply I had to go out of town for a few days. thanks again.

Offline Kim Doherty

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Re: Trim question
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2017, 10:36:30 AM »
Thamk you everyone for your input I now have some things to check. Sorry it took so long for me to reply I had to go out of town for a few days. thanks again.

Terry,

If after running through all of the above you still feel the model wants to slide down the hill inverted, shorten your elevator push rod by 1/2 a turn and tell us the results.

Kim.

Offline Terry Bentley

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Re: Trim question
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2017, 08:14:38 AM »
OK thanks Kim.


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