Anything wrong with this?

[ray copeland]

Anything wrong with this,, i love to build and fly airplanes!! But, ,  as a beginner i do not want to get into the super finishes quite yet. So far i have built an Akromaster, Ringmaster, and Skyray from kits and bunches of 1/2a's. Next up are a Twister and Magician. I am not quite ready to buy an airbrush and go thru the lessons of learning how  to use  it. My plans are to use Monocote on the wings and a sealer on the bare wood and then rattle can Rustoleum over it. Any help on what a good procedure for this would be, what is the best sealer, i have used spar varnish and sanding sealer before with good luck.  Should i put 2 or 3 coats of can spray paint on the fuse and tail with light sanding in between, i know that there has to be ample drying time between coats. Maybe a primer coat first?, just searching for good ideas from people that have been there when they first started. Would just like to spiffy up the look of my planes a little, maybe also add a decal or line on the monocote wing.  Thanks,, Ray

[John Castle]

I'm a beginner at about the same place as you..Come to the dark side and try dope and silkspan at least on the bare wood. It's kind of a pain but the results sure are nice plus you get to use a lot less rustoleum to get good coverage. It's got that whole nostalgia thing going for it as well and will make your house smell like a hangar. I still use monocote for the open span covering.

John

[Rudy Taube]

Hi Ray,

No, nothing is wrong with your method! In fact, I think it is the best method for CL A/C. There are many people already using your method, and I think there will be more in the future.

I know you will get MANY letters from all the traditionalists out there who demand that we all use the 70 year old fashioned method of using dope fumes and tissue if we want to be "real" modelers! 

Monokote is stronger and lighter than the covering job done by all but the very best CL painters out there. Most of the area of our planes is in the wings and tails. You will save weight by using Monokote in these areas, even on your Super Duper CLPA plane when you build it.

For your fuselage, I highly recommend using the Monokote paints. They match the film colors very well, AND IF YOU FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS, they are easy to use and work perfectly. Here is a link to their web site with instructions and tips:

http://www.monokote.com/lustrekote/lustrekote.html

I have used their system with great success. But it is very important to use THEIR undercoat before painting. If you are extremely knowledgable about painting like Mark and a few others, then you can substitute, but for the rest of us I would stick with using their products only. Here are a few tips I have learned from others that help a lot:

1. Use THEIR undercoat before using color. Don't skip this important step!

2. Keep the paint real warm. Heat the rattle cans in hot tap water before using. I store my cans in a cut down clorox plastic bottle filled with hot water before and during painting.

3. Shake well. Like until your right arm falls off, then shake in your other hand until that arm falls off!  ........ And keep shaking between coats.

4. Adhere to their time to dry recommendations. After your all done, let your plane dry at least several days before flying. ....... I go a week or more here at the beach, but only one hour is needed in LV during the summer! 

5. Their clear coat is easy to use and works great!

6. Don't believe those who bad mouth this product. Every case of having a problem stems from NOT following the directions and/or mixing different products. ..... I hate painting anything, and I am "paint challenged", but when I have to paint something even I get very good results with this product. 

With the above said, there are many great products out there (Jerry Nelsons paints, etc.) but I was trying to keep within the constraints you laid out in your post; Ease of use, inexpensive, no air guns, etc.

Good luck with your next project. 

Regards, 

[Dan McEntee]

  Research the plans list at Flying Models Magazine, and look up some of Allen Brickhaus' published model designs. In one or two of them, he goes into great detail on how to do a iron on covering and rattle can finish. The short version is, cover the flying surfaces first, add fillets as desired, fill grain with a thinned slurry of spackling compound,sand off, brush on a coat of thinned finish cure epoxy, sand and apply another coat if necessary, prime and paint. He even gets into the brands of paint that are the most fuel proof. This make s a pretty durable finish, and can look pretty darned nice also with practice, just like with any method. There really is nothing like a nice shiney rubbed out dope finish, but even though I fly expert class, and have done a few doped finishes, I came from the same kind of beginnings that you have and I still do more damage to models taking them in and out of the house and car. I still do iron on and epoxy finishes for the durability reasons. Keep with the small and simple planes that you are building, and by building several of those you'll get lots of practice at it and each one will look better than the last.
   Good luck and have fun,
   Dan McEntee

[Larry Fulwider]

. . . and a sealer on the bare wood and then rattle can Rustoleum over it. . . .

Ray --

Rustoleum has an annoying overspray that drifts through the air, stays wet, and leaves a not-to-easy to remove mist coat on walls, floors, and precious items you didn't notice laying around until too late. So, it depends a lot on where you can spray (or your wife's attitude about floors and walls). Outdooors, well you know that is a weather dependant option. The drying time is also annoying

I'm doing the "club U-Key" fuselage and tail feathers with dope and a foam brush -- clear over stained wood on the fuse, and colored dope on the tail, with clear over. We'll see how that works out. For me, our house, this weather, and my marriage, it is a better choice. Are you using cloth hinges? Dope is better (freer) in that case.

Lustrekote seems to have a more "lacquer-like" mist, but it has its own problems plus "unhandy" availability. It sure dries a lot faster! Also, someone mentioned there is a new lacquer Rustoleum, that he hopes is foolproof. I haven't seen it, tried it, or know of anyone who has as yet.

The general approach of film covering on wings and "paint" of some sort on the fuselage (and slick handling of the areas where they meet) makes sense to me for "beaters" particularly. Done well, it is easy to imagine a "Huntersville Tuesday Front Row Finish" with that approach.

Are you coming to Huntersville on the 14th? If so, I'll have the U-Key done, and you can see what you think.

Larry Fulwider

[Michael Floerchinger]

Nothing wrong with that at all! I am going to get back into building and flying again and though I have had quite a few hand rubbed dope finishes I will be going the route of Monokote and rattle can finish.

Mike

[Paul Taylor]

I would suggest you take a look at Zuriel's Ring Master post. RingMaster with rattle can and monokote. Looks real clean.

You could always just wrap the fuse in monokote as well. The last few profiles I did this way. You just have to make sure you start at the bottom and work you way up.

Here are a few pics of planes that are all monokote.
First one is my scratch built Cardinal with a foam wing.
Second one is Louis Rankins. This man has a gift for laying down kote.
He also had a Jr. Geo that was placed somewhere in the middle of AP's at last years NATs. And if he also recovered a ARF Tutor that is killer.

[Ward Van Duzer]

In the November 1994 issue of Stunt News (Beginning) I wrote about Beginners Finishing with plastic Coatings and rattle can paint. There have been some updates since then. We spoke then of “Home Depots Ultralight Spackle Compound”. We diluted it, and wiped it into the grain of the balsa. This did require spray finishing (air brush, rattle cans, etc) from this point on because brushing could pull the spackle out of the grain of the balsa. Shortly after that article was written I tried something else. Water based wall paint! Great primer! Brush it on with a rubber brush, and sand it down with a few strokes of  # 400. The rattle can color we used was “Krylon Color Works Polyurathane Enamel”. They make a red oxide primer you could use under the color coat(s) if you want to get exotic!. Two light coats of color, with light sanding between coats will provide an adequate finish for what we are trying to achieve. And it won’t take two weeks to dry!

Recently, many folks have begun to use UltraCote Plastic film because of its’ workability. I like it better. Your mileage may vary. Go here for lots of tips about UltraCote.

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Articles/Article.aspx?ArticleID=1115

Have fun!


W. 

[Kim Doherty]

Hi Ray,

I know you will get MANY letters from all the traditionalists out there who demand that we all use the 70 year old fashioned method of using dope fumes and tissue if we want to be "real" modelers! 

Monokote is stronger and lighter than the covering job done by all but the very best CL painters out there. Most of the area of our planes is in the wings and tails.

Regards, 

Just to clear up some of the statements made by Rudy, there is a reason we still use dope and tissue to cover models. Contrary to what Rudy has stated, Monocote provides virtually NO!! additional strength over what is provided by the basic structure. Dope and tissue add SIGNIFICANT!! strength to a model at a very low weight penalty. Even with a Monocote covered wing and tail you will be hard pressed to build much lighter than a well done dope and tissue covering job. As to fumes, wear a respirator (you should be regardless of what material you are spraying!)

There is nothing requiring great skill to apply dope and tissue. A bit of patience perhaps, but not much else.

Having said the above, I think going the Monocote and Rustoleum method will yield a durable workmanlike finish which is all you need to have fun with.

Spray away!

Kim.

[Jim Kraft]

My favorite method is brushing dope over silk. No overspray, way less masking, and very light finishes. I use no filler, just clear to fill the silk. It is probably a little more time consuming than cote and rattle can, but I just cannot stand to put on cote. It just drives me nuts putting it on, let alone the trim, and the way it looks when I get done. I have seen some beautiful finishes done with cote and rattle can, and I have tried several times. I always go back to my old standby.

[john e. holliday]

Something I heard about and tried when spraying paint, is take an old window fan and tape a furnace filter to the exhaust side of the fan.  When spraying have the fan so it pulls the air away from you.  You will be surprised at how much overspray is caught.  As stated also wear a paint mask.  Other alternative is to wait for decent weather and paint outdoors with a fan blowing the spray away from you.  DOC Holliday

[John Stiles]

My favorite method is brushing dope over silk. No overspray, way less masking, and very light finishes. I use no filler, just clear to fill the silk. It is probably a little more time consuming than cote and rattle can, but I just cannot stand to put on cote. It just drives me nuts putting it on, let alone the trim, and the way it looks when I get done. I have seen some beautiful finishes done with cote and rattle can, and I have tried several times. I always go back to my old standby.

That's a dadgum pretty plane right there...Great job!

[Garf]

I use clear polyurathane varnish to seal the fuselage. After sanding I brush on krylon enamel or spray rustoleum, whichever I have at the time. The open framework gets Sig Stix-it, then monokote or Brodak film. Good enough for me. I can't do monokote fuselages worth anything.

[Rudy Taube]

Hi again Ray,

RE: Kim's reply #8

1st let me say: I have always admired Kim, and appreciate all the help he has given us in the E-Stunt part of CLPA.  Kim is an excellent builder and is at least 10 times better at it than I am! When it comes to building, and many other areas of CLPA, I would always defer to Kim's opinion.

Kim has a good point about film coverings not having as much strength as a dope and tissue covering "IF" the film is not ironed down on each cap strip and on all balsa parts of the wing. So, IF your structure needs some extra strength provided by the covering; then just iron down the film everywhere it touches the balsa. This will add strength, and be as strong as the old fashioned dope and tissue method.

My guess is that most of our wing designs are very stiff in their wood structure and don't really need much extra help from the covering. For ex: In the dark arts we fly our 40 pound IMAC planes at higher speeds, and perform much more violent, and stressful maneuvers than CLPA does, and many of our wing structures are built in a similar way that our CLPA planes are built. Approx. 50% of our planes use film coverings over open bays, and we do not have ANY problems with strength in our wings. With our large planes costing over $6,000, believe me if a dope and tissue finish gave us an important advantage in weight or strength, the mfg. would use it and we would be using this finish method, not film coverings.

RE: painting: Doc has an excellent suggestion RE: the fan/filter idea to minimize the overspray problem. This idea works well for sanding too. I use one, <$20 to make, works great in the shop.

As much as I like Monokote, I agree with the suggestion that someone made to try Ultrakote. It does not have the beautiful gloss and vivid colors of Monokote, but it is very easy to put on and still looks great.

As an example of the strength and lasting ability of Monokote, I attached a photo of one of my Monokote planes. The planes age is 14 (pilots age, much much more!   ), over 600 violent flights (in Advanced and Unlimited class, and freestyle flights). It is all covered in Monokote (it was an ARC) with the cowl and wheel pants painted with Monokote rattle can paint. It has an open bay wing structure. It still looks like new with NO wing strength problems.

Regards,

[Andrew Hathaway]

FWIW, I've used dope several times.  I've got a fairly large air compressor, a somewhat expensive airbrush, and a I've had a couple cheapy HVLP spray guns...  But unless it's something I really want to invest a bunch of time into, I usually just throw some paint and Monokote on it and go fly.  I used to use dope on everything, but I started using Monokote on wings to save weight and get into the air faster.  I still used dope on the solid wood surfaces, with a bit of an overlap onto the wings, then covered the wings.  It worked ok, but dope keeps getting harder to obtain and more expensive... So the last couple knock around planes I threw together, got sprayed with about 3 coats of Duplicolor rattle can auto primer, sanded between coats.  Then the wings were quickly/roughly taped off, and the solid surfaces were sprayed with rattle can Rustoleum.  The base color got two coats, usually one in the evening, and a second the next morning, then later that night or the next morning I sprayed the trim.  After giving the Rustoleum a day or so to dry, I covered the open surfaces with Monokote.  From bare wood to finished was usually about 3 days.  It'd be faster if it weren't for drying time... The results really look as good or better then my quickie dope finishes, and they're at least as fuel proof. 

[Michael Floerchinger]

Hello Jim Kraft, great looking Magician! Is that a McCoy red head on the plane? How old is that picture and did you build the Magician from a kit or plans?

Mike

[catdaddy]

Ray,
Try this link out http://www.tulsacl.com/Finishing.html
Articles on monokote, rustoleum, and forward masking

[Jim Kraft]

Mike; I built the Magician from the Midwest plan. McCoy 40 Red Head. I think the picture was taken last summer. This is my 3rd Magician, and I am building a 4th one. I have built all of mine with movable flaps, and I just really like the plane. All of them so far have weighed in the 35 to 38 oz. range. For some strange reason, this is one of the easiest planes to trim of all the planes I have built. Everyone has tracked well on the first flight, with very little trimming done after that. Once bench trimming is done all of them were flown the full pattern on the first flight. My first one had a Fox 35 on it, and was the lightest at 35 oz. The next two are powered with McCoy 40's. A fun plane to build, and fun to fly. If I can get these posted the blue/yellow one was the first one, and the red/yellow/was the second one.

[Michael Floerchinger]

Thanks Jim! I was looking for a plane to get back into the hobby and the Magician is a great flying plane. I worked my way up to a Magician after I built and flown Flight Streaks. The Flight Streak was an easy plane to build and fly, to fast on the controls so I had to slow it down but then when I went to the Magician it was like going to a Cadillac! I built many Magicians before I moved on to the Nobler. I want to build something that will be easy to build and I almost forgot about the Magician until I saw the great pictures of your airplane. I may even have a Magician plan or two somewhere in storage!

Thanks for the information and the pictures of your airplane, pretty cool!

Mike

[John Stiles]

Thanks Jim! I was looking for a plane to get back into the hobby and the Magician is a great flying plane. I worked my way up to a Magician after I built and flown Flight Streaks. The Flight Streak was an easy plane to build and fly, to fast on the controls so I had to slow it down but then when I went to the Magician it was like going to a Cadillac! I built many Magicians before I moved on to the Nobler. I want to build something that will be easy to build and I almost forgot about the Magician until I saw the great pictures of your airplane. I may even have a Magician plan or two somewhere in storage!

Thanks for the information and the pictures of your airplane, pretty cool!

Mike

Plan Or Two I might be interested in reimbursing ya for your spare plan

[Michael Floerchinger]

Hello Jim, if I can find them and I have an extra one I will give it to you. if I can only find one I am sure I will be able to get it copied. It has been a while but I have had plans copied before. By the way, where are you located again?

Mike

[Jim Kraft]

Hey Mike; It is John who needs a plan. I got mine from Stuka Stunt. One other thing is that you can fly the Magician in classic, P40, and PA. Have I told you guys that I really like the Magician? Thanks to all for the nice words.

[Michael Floerchinger]

I looked for the plans but I also searched the net and found SS Hobbies, I never new about them and when I looked low and behold I found a Magician!

http://www.sshobbies.com/cosoorma.html

For the price I think I will get one and put that old Fox to use!

Mike

[John Stiles]

Yep, that is a dandy...thanks for linking to it, Mike

[ray copeland]

Thanks, a bunch guys for great hints!!!  I just got my Brodak Magician, nice kit, looks simple to build. My only regret is not knowing there are two different size Magicians, i would rather build the 48 inch plane, but i am going ahead with this one, engine will be a toss up between a fox .35 and an os .25 fsr.  Going with Mono and primer and can spray.   Thanks again,, Ray   

[Mark Scarborough]

Gents,
good comments all.
I would like to make one small comment about the fan. Please be aware that box fans that suck the fumes from painting through the fan and filter have one small niggle that you should keep in mind. they are NOT explosion proof. Now I have done exactly what was described with the filter and fan and never had a problem. But~!!! I would strongly encourage that the fan be ON before you begin painting. If you forget to turn the thing on and realize that its getting "foggy" in here,, please do NOT turn the fan on at that point, it could be a rather LOUD lesson as the fumes ignite,, yeah its a pretty rare thing, but it can happen. so just be aware of it.
Also, fine dust is a flame explosion hazard too, ask the wheat farmers that store grain in silos,,

[john e. holliday]

Ray, you will be surprised at how well the Brodak Original Magician flies.  Mine is powered with Brodak .25 and is now being used by my grandson.

Mark is correct in that the fan must be on first before even thinking of firing up the sprayer.  Also as someone has stated it is useful when you are sanding. 

That cloud of mist in the basement is why I wait until decent weather to spray out side.  DOC Holliday