Author Topic: Trifecta (Read 15747 times)

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #100 on:** October 05, 2021, 06:47:57 AM »

I am restating this since I didn't get any response from modifying an old post.

I have a question about flap area near the fuselage. Because of the logarithmic setup, the inside flap had to be just over an inch from the fuselage. Now that the design is finished I have rearranged some of the bolt patterns so that about 1/2" of that space can be recovered. What I am curious about is will that have any noticeable effect? I think not but, being MonoKoted, adding that 1/2" back would be easy.

Ken

Scott Richlen · « **Reply #101 on:** October 05, 2021, 07:02:05 AM »

I suspect the difference will be small to un-noticable.

Consider this an opportunity to do a small experiment. Fly it as is and then do the fix and see if you notice any difference other than confirmation bias. Since the flying experience is a very subjective thing (if you've judged much you've probably had that experience where someone puts in an awful flight but is upset with their scores since they thought it was great...)

Confirmation bias makes this whole thing tricky because:
1) if you expect to feel a difference in flight characteristics pre and post change, you are likely to find one
2) if you don't expect to experience any change in flight characteristics, you'll likely not

It will be interesting to hear your report!

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #102 on:** October 05, 2021, 07:18:24 AM »

Ken,
Since you lose the area on the inboard flap it should allow you to carry more tip weight. Some designs had the outboard flap 1/8" wider then the inboard to allow the extra tip weight, this was thought to help in the wind. I agree with Scott, fly it and see but start with simple maneuvers - climbs, dives, 3/4 wing over and a few loops. If ok try a big lazy 8 but be prepared to move back when you flip it inverted. Stretch the 8 out until you feel comfortable inverted the do a couple laps inverted to get the wings level and do some outsides. After that if all is good you should be ready to do some vertical 8's and the rest of the pattern. Let us know how it flies.

Best, DennisT

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #103 on:** October 05, 2021, 07:41:10 AM »

Thanks guys. I already have the extra 1/8" on the outboard flap. If it flies well on the first trim flights I will probably leave it as-is since the consensus seems to be that that area close to the fuselage is probably not affecting much.

Now for something considerably more important

Does the tail need more trim? USA is going on the rudders.

(if you've judged much you've probably had that experience where someone puts in an awful flight but is upset with their scores since they thought it was great...) I have been on both sides of that one!

Ken

Scott Richlen · « **Reply #104 on:** October 05, 2021, 08:01:00 AM »

Quote

Does the tail need more trim? USA is going on the rudders.

Horizontal stab and elevator look a bit bare compared to the wings.

Rudder with "USA" on it should be fine.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #105 on:** October 05, 2021, 11:28:53 AM »

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on October 05, 2021, 06:47:57 AM

I am restating this since I didn't get any response from modifying an old post.

I have a question about flap area near the fuselage. Because of the logarithmic setup, the inside flap had to be just over an inch from the fuselage. Now that the design is finished I have rearranged some of the bolt patterns so that about 1/2" of that space can be recovered. What I am curious about is will that have any noticeable effect? I think not but, being MonoKoted, adding that 1/2" back would be easy.

Ken

Ken, I did similar here

https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/another-dog-another-'tric-fiorotti-v4-4-timer-with-accelerometer/

I filled in the gap with a piece keyed into the flap, both for similar area, and I thought it looked better with the gap closed. It worked fine, but probably will be fine without. I had a removable piece and used thin clear tape to attach. You can see it in the picture above.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #106 on:** October 06, 2021, 11:40:29 AM »

She is no longer a virgin. 2 trim flights with better than expected results. A slight tweak of the inboard flap (screw adjustable) and the wings were level. Tracks better than anything I have built. CG came out at 25% MAC which is a bit tail heavy for electric but you would never know it from the way it tracks level and locked out of the turns I did. I was really surprised how much the logarithmic flaps changed the corners. Only did 8 on the two short test hops but I could clearly feel the difference.

I want to thank everybody that has encouraged me through this crazy build and especially Fred for helping me get the ESC and timer talking to each other yesterday. Fred - you were right, the blinking light didn't bother me at all and I noticed immediately when it went solid. I also turned off GForce and Nose Up till I have it trimmed upstairs. The base settings on the ESC gave it a 5.1 on 62' lines with solid, but not excessive, pull. This is a bit fast for me, I am a 5.4 kind of guy, but it flew so well that I am going to keep it there for the next session. Todays test was using .018 19 strand lines but I plan on flying it on .0145 3 strand once I have basic trim.

Next time out we do patterns!

Proof of Life:

Ken

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #107 on:** October 06, 2021, 12:23:05 PM »

Great to see you and Trifecta out and flying!

Happy to hear that you have the timer working to your liking. Did you get the soft start up working? I couldn't quite tell from the video. If you did, please post the Start Up setting that works.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #108 on:** October 06, 2021, 01:03:25 PM »

Quote from: Fred Underwood on October 06, 2021, 12:23:05 PM

Great to see you and Trifecta out and flying!

Happy to hear that you have the timer working to your liking. Did you get the soft start up working? I couldn't quite tell from the video. If you did, please post the Start Up setting that works.

Hard to tell if it is working and still set too fast. I can control it as is but I would like about 5' more slow roll. Right now it is set at +10. It doesn't leap at you like it did at +-0 but I am waiting till we hear from someone that knows. I am one of those idiots that does squares after an accumulated air time of 15 seconds. I wanted that on the video so I could check for hinging but all I got was Mike's thumb. Such is life.

You were right on about the light. On the Huben you get that RPM drop warning. If you were doing something when it came on, or off I guess, it could be dangerous. With the light, you know if you start a maneuver with it blinking you have enough time to finish. I already like it. Now to figure out what is making that disturbing noise on takeoff and landing. Sounds like I lost a wheel and it was running on the hub. All three wheels in tact and rolling smooth and no marks on the prop. Time to pop the hatch and see how we did temperature and RPM wise.

Ken

Brent Williams · « **Reply #109 on:** October 06, 2021, 01:09:05 PM »

Congratulations on getting airborne!

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #110 on:** October 06, 2021, 02:11:50 PM »

Quote from: Brent Williams on October 06, 2021, 01:09:05 PM

Congratulations on getting airborne!

Thanks! It was such a glorious feeling to take MY plane out of MY car and hook up MY lines after 22 months of sporatic OPP flights that I almost forgot that it was her first flight too I was supposed to be nervous and careful. It almost scares me that I wasn't - either nervous or careful. The Sandpiper Trifecta is everything I hoped it would be.

This part is really for Fred Underwood:
ESC (JETTI Spin44 Pro )Readouts:
Max Temp 55c (132f)
Max Volts 18.69
Min Volts 16.50
Motor Run 59 sec
Power On 1:43 sec
Max RPM 5,610 - I ran this prop on a Cobra 3520 at 7,500+-
Max Prop 5,610 Is this a legitimate RPM for that prop with a 5.1 lap time on 65' lines (C-C)
No Errors

Timer Settings (Firorotti v.6)
RPM PWM 215
Nose Up Off
G-Force Off
Sensitivity 17
RPM Max 216 1.632ms
RPM Min 016 1.232ms
Sensor Normal

Lines 19 strand .018 62' Actual

Motor BadAss 3515-710KV
Prop MAS 11-6 3 Blade

Ken

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #111 on:** October 06, 2021, 02:36:17 PM »

I doubt the rpm is accurate or even a close approximation, especially in light of your known number for the prop on the 3520. If the prop had no slippage and gave 6" per rev, that would be about 2800'/min or 47'/sec far below where we fly.

See email about timer and max and min needed change.

Rogerio Fiorotti · « **Reply #112 on:** October 06, 2021, 06:50:27 PM »

Hi Ken,

I'm glad I was able to configure your ESC with Fred's support.

I advise not setting the RPM too close to 1,200ms depending on the setting of ESC it may trip, as you set the SET RPM at 215 try RPM MAX 235 and RPM MIN 115.

Congratulations on Trifecta, here we say it was SHOW.

Rogerio

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #113 on:** October 11, 2021, 05:42:57 PM »

Quote from: Rogerio Fiorotti on October 06, 2021, 06:50:27 PM

Hi Ken,

I'm glad I was able to configure your ESC with Fred's support.

I advise not setting the RPM too close to 1,200ms depending on the setting of ESC it may trip, as you set the SET RPM at 215 try RPM MAX 235 and RPM MIN 115.

Congratulations on Trifecta, here we say it was SHOW.

Rogerio

Those settings gave me a 5.1 on 62' lines. The speed seems about right for the plane so I am going to go to 65' lines and hopefully that will give me a 5.3. The light is going to take some getting used to but I already like it. The pattern I put the link below was the first time the plane went over 45 or inverted. I had G-Force and Nose Up turned off per Fred's advice. I see why now. It was a bit light up there and I had to open things up a bit. Once I turn both settings on I should see a huge improvement overhead. The logarithmic was a real surprise, actually it was a bit unnerving. The handle "feel" that the plane is going to make the corner is totally different. I flew up to about 50 degrees to give me room for those first corners. I did a really high RWO since the plane had never been inverted to give me an out. What felt like huge corners when I was flying them are really quite tight on the video. The over turn on the first corner of the hourglass was 100% the logarithmic. It will take some getting used to.

I will keep you posted through this thread. Maybe others will get something from your responses. Let's just say the 1st impression of the timer is good.

Trifecta is a reality - finally. Please don't be too critical of the pattern. It was her first time over 45 and first time inverted. My brain will adapt to the logarithmic soon enough and intersections and the like will get back in the same zip code! The color commentary is none other than Matt Colan.

Ken

Dane Martin · « **Reply #114 on:** October 11, 2021, 06:50:23 PM »

Looking great. Just some tweaks and it's a contender

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #115 on:** October 14, 2021, 10:27:43 AM »

ESC (Spin 44) results from first full pattern. 8-10 mph wind flown biased into the wind due to sun.

Max Temp 70c Higher than I would like but well within limits. Added some airflow under.
Max Volts 20.80 TP 5s 2800 25c battery Warm on landing, not hot. 23% left
Min Volts 17.52
Run Time 5:39 Have cut to 5:35
Power On 6:26
Max RPM 9280 Airspeed feels right but lap time 5.1 so I am going from 62' to 65' lines.

Fred - you were correct that the RPM's from the trim flights were inaccurate. Does anyone know on the Spin ESCs which side should be in on a profile. Just looking at it I would think the label side since it is flat. I want max airflow over the side needing the most cooling.

Ken

Next flights turn on g-force and trim overhead.

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #116 on:** October 14, 2021, 11:47:53 AM »

When I look at a few brands of ESCs, including Jeti, it looks like the smooth side with the label is the heat sink/aluminum plate. The other side is soldering on the board. I put the label in the airflow or facing out.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #117 on:** October 15, 2021, 02:46:11 PM »

Quote from: Fred Underwood on October 14, 2021, 11:47:53 AM

When I look at a few brands of ESCs, including Jeti, it looks like the smooth side with the label is the heat sink/aluminum plate. The other side is soldering on the board. I put the label in the airflow or facing out.

Fred, here is the full set. If anybody else accidently finds this thread and has some feedback on these settings, I am all Ears. After 60 years flying Stunt, I am a freshman with this stuff.

Ken

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #118 on:** October 15, 2021, 08:53:16 PM »

Settings look fine. I like to fly the timer with sensitivity, max and min for several outings and have that optimized before using nose up or g-force. Just my preference to learn what sensitivity and max and min can do.

I would start with G-force 5, again to see how it works so that you can later understand what each adjustment can do to fine tune to your liking.

My preference would be to use sensitivity and then get the lap time and line length to where you want it before using the other functions. I like to have trim and lap time essentially done, first. But that is my preference and all said, the settings are ok.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #119 on:** October 21, 2021, 05:32:53 PM »

IT IS FINISHED! I held interviews for the pilot figure. This guy's response when I told him what he would be doing won him the job!

Ken

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #120 on:** October 27, 2021, 09:44:20 PM »

Quote from: Fred Underwood on October 15, 2021, 08:53:16 PM

Just my preference to learn what sensitivity and max and min can do.

Weather willing I m going to get a few flights in next week. My goal is to get my basic power settings right. The planes airspeed is where it seems comfortable but the lap times are 5.1 which is faster than I like. I am a 5.3 - 5.4 kind of guy so I am going from 62' .018 19 strand to 65' .0145 3 strand. The extra length and the reduced drag and weight should cancel enough to get me to a 5.3. If it doesn't then I am going to have to mess with the timer. Let me confirm what I think I know about the three RPM settings. PWM is the base RPM. if I set it higher I get faster level lap times, lower slower. MIN is the slowest it will go if it is backing off and max is as fast as it will go if a boost is called for. Sensitivity is how fast that will happen. Higher numbers are faster. I am guessing that the absolute RPM related to the settings depends on the ESC and motor.

How am I doing so far?

I have been told that the boost is faster and stronger with a 6s vs a 5s. I have 35% remaining on the 5s on a calm day. Should be OK.

Sorry to be such a pain - Ken

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #121 on:** October 27, 2021, 10:20:05 PM »

Not a pain at all. Sounds like you are on the right track.

Since "boost" is controlled by Sensitivity, Max and Min, you can dial up what you want with 5S or 6S. On that timer, the Max and Min will move with the base rpm changes to keep the same delta. You can still move Max and Min to suit your needs.

"PWM is the base RPM." RPM settings as seen on the Jeti box have a timer "RPM" number and a pulse width number.

http://www.metaenergia.com.br/wa_files/CL_20Timer_20v_6_20EN.pdf

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #122 on:** November 15, 2021, 07:21:34 PM »

Quote from: Fred Underwood on October 27, 2021, 10:20:05 PM

Not a pain at all. Sounds like you are on the right track.

Since "boost" is controlled by Sensitivity, Max and Min, you can dial up what you want with 5S or 6S. On that timer, the Max and Min will move with the base rpm changes to keep the same delta. You can still move Max and Min to suit your needs.

"PWM is the base RPM." RPM settings as seen on the Jeti box have a timer "RPM" number and a pulse width number.

http://www.metaenergia.com.br/wa_files/CL_20Timer_20v_6_20EN.pdf

Fred: A question on the ESC. I went out today to test the new settings. I accidently plugged the ESC into the landing gear position. After much head scratching and blaming it on the cat I got things connected correctly. I powered down then powered up in the proper sequence. It acted normal and powered up right on que but it only gave me about 25% power. It acted exactly as it would if you had set it for a 6s and put in 4s battery except it is set to autodetect. Packed up and limped home (knee still killing me). Back in the shop I plugged in the battery and tried it one more time. Full power. Now I am confused and a little concerned. There are 6 different ways you can plug the ESC into the timer, 5 are wrong and I have done all 5 at least once with no damage. What I am wondering is what kind of memory is in the esc/timer and did turning them off until the capacitors drained maybe fix the problem. I checked it again in about an hour and all was well. Really disappointing, weather was 50 with a 3mph wind coming out of the sun AND I COULDN'T GET OFF THE GROUND!

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #123 on:** November 15, 2021, 07:57:50 PM »

I like to make it easy to plug and unplug the ESC to the timer, and to do it correctly. I use a 4 or 6" extension between the timer and ESC. Similarly, I have an extension from the timer to use to plug into the Jeti Box. I can match colors easily plugging to the extension, but it is not always to plug into the timer once it is installed.

You can also plug power into the Jeti box from a 4 cell NiXX pack (not over 5.5v) and not need the LiPo pack. Leave an extension from the Jeti Box to the 4 cell pack plugged into the box.

These additions make programming and ESC checks easy. See photo.

I'm not sure about the diodes and memory, but that may be correct, needs to be completely "off" to reboot.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #124 on:** December 30, 2021, 03:52:01 PM »

Finally got to fly again and start working on trim. Fred was right. Nose Up and G-Force confuse things and don't work well till the plane is trimmed. Finally got the trim into the "flyable" box. Got the elevator about right. It was floating real bad inverted. Got the speed down to 5.2. Now I have to figure out leadout position. It is pretty loose over 45. Under 45 it is rock solid. Moving the leadouts back did not help. Next trip I will try moving forward. I am tempted to turn on G_force but I have not exhausted normal trim. Moved the battery 1/2" forward and the hunting stopped. So now it is pretty much getting handle time to get used to logarythmic. I have installed a Jetti port on the side so that I don't have to disconnect anything or open hatches. Really nice to not have to find screws in the grass!

Ken

One thing that will go away with all the plastics we are courting. The total relaxation and peace of mind that you get carving a nose block.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #125 on:** January 11, 2022, 02:31:57 PM »

Three more flights today. Still long way to go on trim. Very loose above 45. Had to abort two OH8's. Plane doesn't want to fly slow. Bumped up the RPM to give me a 5.1. Much better but still verry loose on the RWO and OH8. Turned on G-Force which really made a difference. The kick in at the intersection of the V8 and the extra power through the top of the hourglass was refreshing. It also uncovered the real problem in the OH8. Wings not level and not enough tip weight. Plane is really touchy with the logarythmic so I slowed down the elevator for next trip. It also is very unforgiving of missing the wind. This is the 4th in the series. The other three were very forgiving but this one gets all bent out of shape if I am off as little as 25 degrees.

Next time out Iam going to try using Nose Up instead of G-Force. I think that may help the RWO. She turns with the best of them. So much so that I am going to have to retrain my brain before summer. When you hold the back leg of the hourglass till you see your pilot figure reaching for the ejection handle and still pull out at 8', you gotta get this one trimmed.

I gave her 6 more flights to get her Sh** together before I take it off of my Avatar. She said she would try harder.

Ken

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #126 on:** January 13, 2022, 08:23:00 PM »

Something has been bothering me since Tuesday's session. The only thing I did to the plane since the last session was to seal the flaps. Now everything I have learned since coming back says seal the flaps. Trim wise, it was already "in the box" of being able to fly a respectable pattern. All of my other planes improved when I sealed the flaps, this one went to Sh**. With any flap movement I got erratic movement. Rounds began tightening on their own, corners wouldn't lock half of the time, it went rogue on me any time I missed the wind by even a smidge, and it was so sensitive that I had to buy a hunting license to keep from getting arrested. I am starting to think that sealing may not be a universal plus. On all of my other planes sealing smoothed things out and tightened corners a bit, that was all. Is there perhaps an airfoil / flap combination that sealing hurts?

Ken

john e. holliday · « **Reply #127 on:** January 14, 2022, 08:44:19 AM »

Check the gaps of the hinge lines on the planes. There has to be a difference.

Lauri Malila · « **Reply #128 on:** January 14, 2022, 08:59:35 AM »

Maybe your model is not straight, and sealing the hinge lines made it more sensitive, which amplifies the faults? L

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #129 on:** January 14, 2022, 12:10:02 PM »

Quote from: Lauri Malila on January 14, 2022, 08:59:35 AM

Maybe your model is not straight, and sealing the hinge lines made it more sensitive, which amplifies the faults? L

I think you have nailed it. It IS NOT Straight. When I was sheeting the wing a piece of balsa got under the front center jig support and I didn't notice it till the wing was done. I have the equivalent of washout in the tips and the "warp" is in the LE which leaves you with the choice between "trim and fly" it as best you can and leaving it under your Wife's car tire so you can blame her for all the time you are going to have to spend building a new one. My wife doesn't drive so I am stuck.

Without the sealing it flew well enough to be usable in local competition for Classic and Profile and until I can get back in the practice rhythm, my PA expectations will be to pretty much keep some out-of-town guy from placing last!

Trim was coming along fine. After sealing it felt like it was the Cake from McArthur Park. We will see, next outing will be sans sealing.

Ken

Trostle · « **Reply #130 on:** January 14, 2022, 12:44:19 PM »

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on January 14, 2022, 12:10:02 PM

... leaves you with the choice between "trim and fly" it as best you can and leaving it under your Wife's car tire so you can blame her for all the time you are going to have to spend building a new one. My wife doesn't drive so I am stuck.

Ken

Loan the airplane to Ted. Shareen has had practice to drive over a model. She learned how to do it in one try. (It was a new, very light, nice Nobler.)

Keith

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #131 on:** January 14, 2022, 01:29:09 PM »

Ken
Tuff dealing with a crooked bird! However before you invoke Keith's suggestion may I suggest a couple things. First off, I encountered the "washout problem on a recent OTS. Was perplexing and hard to discover but in my case was easy to fix. Mine was an open bay wing that twisted when I covered it. I was able to fairly easily twist it back and retighten the 'cote.

I you did NOT use sheer webs then you might be able to grab it, twist the heck out of it and tighten the covering; 1/16" is not much twist to overcome. However if you have sheer webs then you will probably need to perform surgery. Remove the covering from the bottom, pluck out all the sheer webs, then retwist the wing and reinstall the webs. Re-cover in plain white - then fly. If it works then finish restoring the trim colors. If not then there is always Keith's suggestion!

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #132 on:** January 14, 2022, 02:36:28 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Adamisin on January 14, 2022, 01:29:09 PM

Ken
Tuff dealing with a crooked bird! However before you invoke Keith's suggestion may I suggest a couple things. First off, I encountered the "washout problem on a recent OTS. Was perplexing and hard to discover but in my case was easy to fix. Mine was an open bay wing that twisted when I covered it. I was able to fairly easily twist it back and retighten the 'cote.

I you did NOT use sheer webs then you might be able to grab it, twist the heck out of it and tighten the covering; 1/16" is not much twist to overcome. However, if you have sheer webs then you will probably need to perform surgery. Remove the covering from the bottom, pluck out all the sheer webs, then retwist the wing and reinstall the webs. Re-cover in plain white - then fly. If it works then finish restoring the trim colors. If not, then there is always Keith's suggestion!

Regrettably, the twist is in an improperly sheeted "D" tube. Picture this, you have a rod jig with 3 supports. each end and the middle. You go to start the bottom sheeting (the top is already on) and when you lay the wing on the jig, one LE is up. No biggie, until both sides are sheeted this sort of thing happens, so you pull it down and lock the rods straight (so you think). What you didn't see was some balsa that got under the front of the center support. Now the center of the wing is a full 1/4" higher than the tips at the LE, perfectly straight at the TE. Now your hero sheets the top and locks in the bowed LE.

My laser level just arrived, and I discovered another treat. I had aligned the stab to the crooked wing. It has about 1-2 degrees positive (LE higher than TE) incidence. No wonder it acts like it is being flown by Davy Crockett. I have two choices here. E-Xacto #11 and, maybe this will work, maybe not, it is electric running tractor(normal) direction. What if I run it pusher (abnormal)? Isn't that the right incidence for a pusher?

Lesson #1 - DO NOT try to build a full size stunter at your work desk. Lesson#2 - buy some friggen alignment tools.

This is starting to become the final exam you take after taking Paul Walker's trim chart class.

Ken

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #133 on:** January 20, 2022, 10:53:17 AM »

So I bought some friggen alignment tools. I have always thought that incidence gages were not worth the price. Then there was this warp and a used Robarts on EBay at a decent price and "Buy Me Now". So, I bought it then and........another of my core beliefs got dashed on the rocks of reality. in 15 minutes of checking I found out that not only was all of the plane except one part 100% straight but I could have used that gauge to prevent it from ever getting covered with the warp. The outboard wing had a twist that started at mid wing and had the outboard LE up 2 degrees. No wonder it wanted to float up into the wind. The price for my misadventure was to lay her out upside down blocked up and weighted down. Opened up three bays on the bottom where the warp started and wet down the insides with a spray bottle. I had never considered how useful a 5lb table vise with a built-in wing tip clamp could be. Weighted her down till the warp was gone, reshrunk the monokote then used the heat gun to dry out the balsa somewhat. Hot wet balsa bends better than it does cold and dry. Left it overnight with the weight attached and this morning - WARP GONE.

Downside - It is back to page 1 of the trim chart. I have never been so happy to have removable adjustable flaps!

Ken

Jim Svitko · « **Reply #134 on:** January 20, 2022, 04:19:48 PM »

Ken, your problems are the reason I went to foam wings. Although anything can be screwed up, a foam wing is much easier and faster for me to build and have it straight. Although heavier, I can live with that.

I also use the Robart incidence meters. But, I wonder how accurately they are made. I suppose they are good enough but certainly not the precision-machined product for perfect alignment. Another thing I wonder about is those angled pieces that are clamped to the leading edge and trailing edge. If you are not very careful in shaping those edges, can the plastic angle can be attached at an incorrect angle/position and affect the reading?

Getting the foam wing halves joined with equal incidence in the panels is critical and I use the incidence meters for that. If anyone has a product/procedure different than the Robart incidence meter I would like to hear of it.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #135 on:** January 20, 2022, 08:02:01 PM »

Quote from: Jim Svitko on January 20, 2022, 04:19:48 PM

I also use the Robart incidence meters. But, I wonder how accurately they are made.

I checked mine with a laser level when it came and it was dead on. The absolute readings are not as important as the relative readings.

ken

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #136 on:** February 12, 2022, 03:16:13 PM »

Now this is a first for me. Others claim to have it happen, but I will bet most of them are skirting the truth. With all of the manipulating, warp removal and putting things back together it was dead on wings level upright and inverted on the 1st flight. So why do I need adjustable flaps if I don't need to adjust them?

2nd flight I put her through her paces. Light overhead and a little tighter on the outsides than insides. A half a turn on the elevator ball link and moved the leadouts fwd 1/8". Finally, her first real pattern. I was still skeptical that the wings were level so I videoed the flight and they were straight edge level. Corners and locking fabulous. Every flaw in the pattern, and there were a bunch could be directly attributed to the pilot.

This is going to be a fun plane to learn the ins and outs of logarithmic flaps and an active timer at the same time. It flies enough like a PA to be competitive but so far trimming it is like herding cats. I keep wishing for a guide to making the transition, but it never comes.

Ken

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #137 on:** March 01, 2022, 11:24:09 PM »

First flight in steady wind. Not too much, about 8. Learned a bit about "Nose Up". It is powerful, maybe too powerful. The handle pressure on the squares was excessive. I am used to the plane slowing down which made it easier to turn the following corners. With Nose Up it sprints to the 2nd corner. I was at 60 degrees before the autopilot wanted to turn and going really fast. If I dial it back to make the squares easier, then I lose the gains on the RWO and Hourglass. G-Force is working nicely. The extra boost in the OH8 and balancing the level flight in the wind is nice.

My goal today was to test tighter corners and see how the plane responded. It responded well to about 12'. The plane will go tighter but I will need to slow it down to do it. With the logarithmic I don't lose as much speed in the corner. I really need to let someone familiar with the Fiorotti timer fly this beast and tell me what it needs, but I am the only one within a couple hundred miles. So many places to trim, so little time. Brave new world!

Had another thrill. Seems that those foam tires will go flat. When they do they bulge a bit at the corners of the flat. That bump started rubbing on the top of the wheel pants. Makes really cool spot landings!

Ken

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #138 on:** August 05, 2022, 01:16:39 PM »

It has been a while since I have been able to fly. I was able to get this years 3rd through 6th flights this morning.

Light but choppy 10mph wind. The change from how the plane flew in March was astounding. I discovered that my timer setting for the accelerometer pad position was backwards, so I fixed that and repositioned it directly under the bellcrank. Upon Fred's recommendations I set all of my settings to 8 with an 80 delta. Flew it and was amazed how much better it responded. It needed some tweaking overhead and it lagged just a bit, especially on braking. Flew it one more time to make sure it needed change, it did. Upped sensitivity to 12 and G-Force to 10 and we be done. She was adequately trimmed (as if they are ever fully trimmed) both power and plane. I had been hesitant to see what she was capable of and truly test the logarithmic till I had the power trim right, so I went for it on the third flight. I was able to tighten the corners to what I think is around 10' without any "banging" and maintain that through the entire sq8. 5.4 both ways on 63', plenty of time for an old fart to work with. I have really needed that "fix". 3 flights in 5 months is not the road to climbing the mountain. It is more like backing up in a parking lot in the foothills. But at least I am out of the parking place!

It is refreshing to see what a 60's design is capable of with today's technology.

Ken

Scott Richlen · « **Reply #139 on:** August 05, 2022, 05:25:10 PM »

Ken:

You really did a beautiful job on your build. It looks great!

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #140 on:** August 11, 2022, 12:40:22 PM »

In my last post I thought I had the timer working to my satisfaction and it was truly flying well so now, I feel compelled to pass on a learning experience. The accelerator sensor is a pad that attaches to the plane flat somewhere. Little is said in the instructions about orientation, and it is easy to read into the instructions that it is assumed that you are mounting it on the inside of a fuselage on the floor. However, on a profile it goes on the bottom of the wing, and it is upside down. There is a setting for this in the timer, but it is easy to misunderstand what you are setting and how to set it since it is done differently from all of the other settings. Until yesterday, I had the setting backwards. Most of the timer functions still worked but they were very muted. Still, I had the plane flying well, it just didn't seem to have the drive I expected from the settings I was using. Others made the same comment. So, on the last flight I had the orientation setting right but I still had the exaggerated boost settings. First thing I noticed was that I could hear the rpm shift in level flight as I went from upwind to downwind. Never did that before! Cool. Ok, RWO time. BadAss motors are all too quiet, so I am sure those watching clearly heard the "WTF was that" as the plane literally blasted off like it had afterburners. I aborted and just flew it around noting where it kicked in and where it braked to get a feel where to set things. I decided to treat it as a new setup and reset the timer to default settings. Two trim flights today to reset sensitivity, Nose Up and G-Force. What a difference it makes when the boost/brake happens when it is supposed to. So why am I telling you how dumb I am? Maybe someone getting their first Fiorotti timer will not make the same mistake and conclude that the timer is a bust. Don't let anybody tell you that electric is less trouble than IC. It is full of ways to screw up. But, once you get it figured out, it is worth it.

As for the logarithmic, now I am beginning to appreciate it. At first, I had a rather "so what is this all about" since I didn't really see any difference. It is very subtle and doesn't really show till you learn how to feel it. Today I was able to feel it and finally see the difference. I didn't *need* it to turn a tight corner. I didn't *need* it to turn a quality corner but having it lets me turn a tight quality corner. Not too many people use them so it is difficult to get a discussion going where I can learn from others.

Ken

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #141 on:** August 11, 2022, 07:33:51 PM »

Thanks for sharing. We all learn from each other. Glad to hear that it is working well.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #142 on:** August 11, 2022, 08:48:57 PM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on November 23, 2020, 10:24:33 AM

Try Excaliber II.

Excaliber II was determined to be NOT Classic legal, Doc. The Tom Warden designed provile (sic) is probably a better flying plane and more suitably sized for Ken's OS .46LA.

Steve

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #143 on:** August 11, 2022, 10:37:33 PM »

Quote from: Steve Helmick on August 11, 2022, 08:48:57 PM

Excaliber II was determined to be NOT Classic legal, Doc. The Tom Warden designed provile (sic) is probably a better flying plane and more suitably sized for Ken's OS .46LA. Steve

Interesting, I built the second profile version of the Sandpiper in 2018 but I did not follow the original so it was not Classic Legal. Flew nearly as well as this one does and it was powered by an OS .46LA. Lost in the fire.

ken

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #144 on:** September 04, 2022, 06:37:06 PM »

Well, this thread started in November 2020 and today the subject of the thread finally lost her virginity at the Ash Southwesterns. Entered in all three classes but only got to fly PA. She performed beautifully, me-not so much but I will catch up to her ability soon.

Ken

john e. holliday · « **Reply #145 on:** September 04, 2022, 07:29:12 PM »

Is this cubicle in your house or at work?

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #146 on:** September 05, 2022, 02:49:46 PM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on September 04, 2022, 07:29:12 PM

Is this cubicle in your house or at work?

Work

I have a better place now, still in the office but I have a 6 x 3 worktable that is just fine for building.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #147 on:** September 27, 2022, 03:35:43 PM »

After all the hype and claims to success on other threads, I added the "Gurney" things to my elevators to try and put a halt to the rampant hunting. Since I had no idea what I was doing, I just monokoted two pieces of 1/4 x 1/16 and CA'd them to the elevator TE, grabbed a couple of batteries and headed to the field. I knew when the plane was 2' off the ground at half circle on the takeoff that they were doing something. 10 laps later it was still grooving. Success! Rolled her over onto her back and got 10 laps of rock steady inverted. Hunting was GONE! Did some corners and wow, tighter and the best locking I have had since the 80's. Packed up and grinned all the way back to the office.

Today I got in two full patterns. The corners are at least 2' tighter with the same handle movement and the locking and tracking in the flats is greatly improved. These do-dads work. What I don't know, is if I simply lucked into the right combination for this plane on the first try or do all kinds of shapes have the same effect. They seem to be in all sorts of sizes and shapes in the pix I have seen. I really want to understand the physics.

Ken

Doug Moon · « **Reply #148 on:** September 27, 2022, 04:56:49 PM »

Ken,
Is the trailing edge on your elevator tapered to a sharp point?

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #149 on:** September 27, 2022, 05:25:22 PM »

Quote from: Doug Moon on September 27, 2022, 04:56:49 PM

Ken,
Is the trailing edge on your elevator tapered to a sharp point?

No. They are 1/8" thick at the TE with an 1/8" carbon fiber cap. The elevators were tapered from 1/2" at the LE to 1/8" at the TE. They are imbedded into the stab and not sealed.

Ken