Top 5: Urban Break Dancing vs Ballet or...

[Dennis Moritz]

3 engine, 2 motors. All engines PAs, including engines used in Junior and Senior. When Paul Walker and Bob Hunt flipped the switches on their electrics, walked to center circle and commenced, I thought well, obvious, this is the end of the snorting bucking internally exploding ICs. Paul's flights and Bob's flights were elegant, shapes inscribed, smoothly drawn, almost lyrical. It felt like the war was over. It felt like the era of stunt war wagons powered by rumbling, ground shaking, noisy and powerful ICs were silenced once and for all. A new era dawned. Doug's Riff Raff, Kaz's Wildcat, and Bill Rich's SV22, were old school, yesterday's warriors, posturing (?) brawn giving way to meticulousness and quiet. The first round seemed to validate this impression. The electrics in front. Rounds two and three however, showed a different result. Doug did it. He muscled his beast into two superior patterns, the best score of the event. Muscled is, I think, an accurate verb here. He made me think of Urban Break Dancing like the five minute power dance that starts the Spike Lee movie, Do the Right Thing. Kaz flew a similar style.

I think the PAs have the ability to power up more powerfully when they break. At least for now. I thought Doug flew a style that took advantage of this. In 2012 he won.

[Dennis Moritz]

I don't feel so much an us vs them dichotomy. Yes. I am attached to the old fashioned ICs. But, more than that, I am fascinated by this moment in stunt. A moment of transition. It is an opportunity to reflect on the different systems. How they are different. Whenever styles shift something is left behind and something is gained. One thing that I thought about, which hasn't been talked about much, is how much less stress electric power is on the airframe. The ICs vibrate a lot. Even the best of them. Airplanes need to be engineered to absorb this stress. Electric motors are infinitely smoother. This should equate with a structural advantage. Right?

[Paul Taylor]

As much as I like my IC engines I'm about ready to bite the bullet and try electric. The last three times out I have been chasing that elusive sweet engine run. I found my crap in my trap!!!
I saw Tom's electric fleet at Brodaks and it looked simple enough.
I might see a conversion project this winter.
E-Nobler anyone?

[peabody]

It's great to see Bob BACK!

[Steve Fitton]

The e power jobs made it through the wind on friday.  Thats a pretty big accomplishment.

[RC Storick]

I am a infant compaired to Bob when it comes to electric but I am fully aware of the advantages of electric power. When they first came out I said what crap. I hate it when I am wrong, and I am wrong about them being crap. Be a watched of airplanes and see what they do and how they do it. Study the mechanics and I am sure anyone that has common sense will see the advantages.

I have a electric program that i am working on now. My last plane that I crashed the wing is still in good shape. So I am building a fuse and elevator purpose built for electrics as I type. One more advantage is If I can keep it under 64 oz (I know I can) I can use .015 lines.

[Wynn Robins]

Bob,

use Keith Renecles timer - if your prop strikes - it shuts down  100%.  I cant say the same for the CC ESC with which I have had 2 stikes and 2 burnt out ESCs!!!!

the Renecle retract timer also throws the gear back out on power outage - so in the event of motor quitting for any reason the gear come down (not so with the Hubin one)

[RandySmith]

Hi All in response I will also say that I have flown and seen some of the best Electrics out there, I also have sold the electric system for now 7 years.
They are good but the Modern state of the art AAC engines give up nothing to them, and in my mind are still superior, I and many others flips and fly for 100s even thousands of flights on Modern AAC engines. so this is not about a IC vs. Electric WAR .....that many want to make it. The IC vs electric war is very silly and should stop,
  The IC motors I'm running are by far the Most powerful (with massive reserves) ,best pulling, most consistent, most reliable, most repeatable, and least troublesome power system I've ever experienced, and for all those reasons I'm staying with IC engines... This does not mean I may not fly both, but my competition ships ,as many others will be  IC.

Randy

[RandySmith]

Just for reference, Randy, whose electric models have you flown?

Bob

Well Bob I have flown 2 of yours   

[James Mills]

Well, sure! That is just one of many advantages that electric offers. At the risk of starting another "us versus them" thing, let me list the advantages that I have found:

Here is another advantage to add to Bob's list, same run everytime (including start up, which would have saved me both an attempt and a short run on my first flight on Friday).  I hope to have my electric finished by the end of the season.

James

[Andrew Borgogna]

Bob
Its good to see you back my friend.  Being way down on the food chain in this hobby we love for me the main reason for flying electric is going to the local park or school and not getting chased out.  In fact people, and police stop and watch us fly and smile at what they see. Often Larry and I have had people come up and tell us how nice it is to watch us fly.  Food for thought.
Andy

[Dan Bregar]

Bob,

use Keith Renecles timer - if your prop strikes - it shuts down  100%.  I cant say the same for the CC ESC with which I have had 2 stikes and 2 burnt out ESCs!!!!

the Renecle retract timer also throws the gear back out on power outage - so in the event of motor quitting for any reason the gear come down (not so with the Hubin one)

Wynn

I've experienced prop strikes with the CC ESC and am not having the problem you mention.  Perhaps your current limit cutoff setting needs to be changed ? 

[proparc]

Bob Hunt,
Are you back to stay, we missed you. Congratulations on your third place. Would have like to see you do it with the Genesis because, I so strongly identify you with plane. But hey, the Crossfire got er done.

The issue of which powerplant is better is as American as apple pie. Is the boss 302 better than the 350 small block. We all know you can win with anything but frankly, powerplant wars are fun. I like to think my Saito's are better than ALL of them. Are they,of course not. But model airplanes are supposed to be fun; powerplant wars are fun. They will never stop.

Toyota is going through it right now, with there newly release Scion FRS. It has a Subaru boxer motor in it. And everybody is asking whether, it can go up against the Hyundai Genesis and the Mazda 3 sport turbo motors. Kawaska and Yamaha motorcycles go at this tooth and nail. The main difference between us and them is that, we try to downplay the differences. They advertise and play up the differences like hell.

[Wynn Robins]

Wynn

I've experienced prop strikes with the CC ESC and am not having the problem you mention.  Perhaps your current limit cutoff setting needs to be changed ? 

It cant be set more that "Very Senstive" which it was  - prop strike = 100+AMPS spike - I wrote castle and they said it is not designed to stopt he ESC that quickly......

[PJ Rowland]

Having flown said Crossfire - I can tell you it doesnt lack for power.

I was surprised at how much pull ,thrust and power it really delivered, not surprised becasue it was electric... Surprised because I was coming from an .81 and it was better than that in every aspect.

Reliable, clean, powerful, quiet - all things we yearn for.

I dont see it as an "us vs them" mentality. Its personal preferance, I haven't jumped out into the electric setups for many reasons. Ultimately what I ask myself is the following : What am I gaining or loosing by adopting different approaches ; Am I giving myself the best chance to win using setup A vs setup B..

Simply saying " Well John Doe runs Electric " isnt enough for me - It needs to fit with every aspect of my program.

My current setup is PA 75 / Pipe - I'm pleased its not a defunct technology... People should see choice, not a 1 size fits all approach.

[Brett Buck]

Beyond all the above, the electric powered model just feels “better” to me at the end of the lines. I can fly better geometry with an electric powered model. Remember, I have flown both types extensively and can make a fair and unbiased comparison. I could care less which one works best; I’m using the one that feels best to me!

Oh, what the heck, I'll say it---

11. No break to fight with/"outthink". I won't go into the details but I learned that lesson the hard way during the 97 NATs - went from seconds from withdrawing in frustration to "competitive with Billy" with one change that greatly reduced the boost/break. Everything my buddies and I have done with engines since then was more-or-less along those lines. That's why my airplane and yours (at the 07 TT) felt just about exactly the same.

   The beauty of electric is that it's that way 100% of the time, instead of maybe 95% with the best current IC engines, and the same at all points in the pattern.

   As soon as it had sufficient power/weight, it was a no-brainer as far as I am concerned.

    Brett

[RandySmith]

The setup I flew back in 2005? Wow! You need to experience the new stuff...

Bob

WOW Not quite accurate, I have flown new stuff, I  flew yours in 2005 and again years later, I also flew Frank M, David F s plane ,and I have flown other new stuff including a Vector 40 E Flite 25 ship that is very good.
My point was the WAR and pet derogatory names for IC setups that many are touting and taking great pleasure in ,does no one any good, The IC vs Electric war that some want to come will not be a good thing for people here ,or on the field.
The fact is there is huge power reserves in my IC stuff ,and I do know how to take advantage of the engine break, or I can run it no break.
The 4/2 break gives me zero problems ,as I use it to my liking and advantage , as do others.
Also the fact IC won most everything at the NATs goes to show IC is not dead as some think, nor will it be for many years to come.
IC or Electric wins are bogus as far as I am concerned, it;s not the motor that wins,It is the Pilot that "wins"  not an IC or E power plant.
I have said nothing derogatory about electric stunt, or your system,(can't say the same about other people attacking IC) the last time I flew yours I thought it was by far the best one to date, and I saw no other electric plane setup that was that good at that time, given that, I still would not switch what I had for yours, my "opinion" was mine had a wider envelope more power and since I rarely have any trouble at all with mine and it is truely flip and fly ,I would stay with it. Matter of fact almost every flight at the NATs and TTs on my ship has been first twist spinner starts, and is dead reliable. With the exception of an electric failure..my glow plug crapped out a few years back before an official.
The modern better balanced AAC engines are also very smooth too. MY Dreadnought Vectra which is not over 20 years old is still in great shape, no stress cracks, the controls are still tight and smooth after way over 1500 flights goes to show how smooth the engines are.
I watch all of these very very closely every day year in year out, I think we can both have differant opinions without a stunt motor war..but if that is what people perfer to do, have at it.
I could easlily go on the attack against E power, but that would be silly, pointless, and would NOT serve anyones interest ,as E power is here to stay and is a viable power system for a model plane. I watch with great interest the development of electrics, I am also much more invovled in it that you know,  I like all model planes, E power , IC makes no differance to me, there is a place and room for all of it.
I think one day someone like you, Bob, or Walker , or another flyer will win the NATs with E power. that is bound to come, but not because you have better power, it will be because You ,Walker or another flyer, is a great pilot.
Maybe that is why both of you are NATs and World Champs too, and with IC engines.
And by the way I do not smell of fuel or oil when I return from a flying session.
For now, and for me I will fly anything I like, but my top line ship will still be  IC powered.

Randy

[Randy Powell]

Just the fact that I could again fly at a local school makes electric attractive to me. I have to drive quite a ways to fly now. Being able to run down to the local Jr. High school and put up a couple of flights for trimming makes electric enormously attractive regardless of other considerations.

[john e. holliday]

YHes, it is the old man here.  Glad to see you back too Bobby.  I have read, watched and seen your work thru the years.  This thing about IC vs E power is up to the individual.   My self I am not that much of a competitor and if I went to E-power it would be for the convenience of repeatability of power settings.   Some guys state it is the noise or lack of noise when flying.   One of the best flights/score I ever got was just flying the plane and trying hard to et the maneuvers done right.   I had just tore down the old Fox and cleaned it up.  Got onw flight before the first official at a local contest, if Fargo ND is local.  I was concentrating so hard on the pattern I could not tell you if the Fox was breaking or not.  But, right now E-power is advancing so fast that if I got something today it may be obsolete next week.  At my age why throw out everything and go with E-power when $ is so tight.  Maybe in another month or two.  

But, it would have been great to see your name on the Walker Trophy again.   Again the Moon brothers have done a lot of work and deserve the title.  Also look at who his coach was.  And the other gentleman is a multi-time Champion also.  Congrats to all.

[Tom Niebuhr]

I am designing a new airplane for electric.

In the early pipe days I tried it and was totally frustrated by the inconsistency.  We had a lot to learn in those early days. I delayed going to a pipe because I wanted to start the engine and fly. When pipe technology got dependable I went to the pipe.

Now electric has developed rapidly into a dependable system.  I certainly am not biased in any direction.

Being more neighbor friendly is part of the puzzle for sure.

I have always loved the smell of castor oil, etc. But our wives have more sensitive sniffers than we do. I have been to contests where I have judged and never touched an airplane, but my wife still says that the smell is there. She even insists on washing my flying clothes separately!

Personally. I have seen several very impressive electric airplanes, and feel it is time to learn what it is all about. So it is safe to say that in my case the jury still has to decide, but I would be crazy not to try it. I think that electric will definitely be a major player in the future of stunt.

[proparc]

When I first came into the hobby, the "big guns" at Flushing Meadows wouldn't speak to me until I got a Fox 35. I had my Enya running great, but that's beside the point, IT WAS NOT A FOX!!

The Fox 35 was what the pros used, and if you did not have a Fox 35, you were not a pro!! In addition, not having a Fox in the nose smacked of a lack of seriousness about your sport. I wanted all of the "top stars" to talk to me so I got a Fox.

I still have that very same Fox. I didn't like then, and I don't like now, (I will send it Randy for restoration though). There was gentleman who came out to Flushing Meadows field with a beautifully done Skylark, at a very good weight, (mid forties).  Anyone of us on this Forum would have been proud to call that airplane our own.

I specifically remember, when a group of the elite at Flushing, walked up to him, and asked him what he had in the nose-he replied, McCoy 40. To a man, they literally all walked away, and didn’t speak to that guy again. What I am trying to show is that this powerplant war thing is by no means new.  

Top stars have to get to grips with the fact that EVERYTHING they do and use is being scrutinized. That’s part of what makes you a star. “Oh yeah, who says so-reply, Bob Hunt himself said so-Oh okay. “You don’t know crap, this is the venturi size Brett Buck uses”!!

While, in this sport, we don’t take “spy photographs” of you going out shopping. And, you won’t see a post of “Bob Hunt had a fashion misstep while at the Team Trials” the rules of stardom still apply.  We can argue about not arguing about powerplants but we are wasting our time-we will, because it’s normal.

[RandySmith]

"Hi Randy:
No one is attacking IC engines; we are, in fact, just pointing out the advantages of the electric system. There have been those on this forum who fly IC and have come onto the All Amped Up section just to, by their own admission – screw with those of us who choose to fly electric models. So, if there is/was any badmouthing and/or “attacking,” it was not started by those who fly electric powered models. Fortunately, some of those same people have seen the (electric) light, and even though they do not fly electric, they at least now respect it and acknowledge that it is at least as viable and competitive as IC."


Oh if that were only true... but it is not, FACT is ,I have had direct attacks on me, and my engines ...before.. this forum was started, and had many in the years since, I even had a big argument on another site because of it, some people just cannot say how good they think something is without purposely trying to run something else down in their process of doing that. I try to ignore these type comments, but sometimes do not.
So no, it was not IC guys who started this, although people do love to poke others.. I guess that will never cease

The rest you and I agree, run what you like and works best for you, but I will also keep reality into these conversations when they get far off. And like you I could care less what people use, as long as they are happy with their choice and it works for them.

Randy

[Randy Powell]

Well, Randy, I can say it. I think PA engines are wonderful.

[Dan Bregar]

And Enya's and O.S.'s are far better than Foxes !  Nothing new under the Sun here.  Modelers have been tauting one brand of engine over another ever since I can remember. The old Ford VS Chevy baloney.  Now we have switched to electric vs glow.  My ego is so big I want my choice to be affirmed by the stunt guru's so I can pretend I'm almost one of them.    But just like Bob & Randy, we all have an opinion and make a choice to fly what we think is the best. I just like to quote a guru or two to validate my position, and feel justified. But as was stated more than once here, we all make a choice and do what we believe is best today. Tomorrow I may change my mind, and someone on this forum will surely bless me with a dose of humility that will deflate my ego. 

[Bill Heher]

While I am realistic enough to realize that I will probably never get near the Top 10 at any contest, I am all in favor of all the Top Guns going electric. That should free up at least a few great power plants and related pipes, venturis, and associated equipment to trickle down to us wanna be's!

Who nows I may actually be able to buy a PA engine set-up and not lie too much to the wife about how much I spent!!

[Wynn Robins]

While I am realistic enough to realize that I will probably never get near the Top 10 at any contest, I am all in favor of all the Top Guns going electric. That should free up at least a few great power plants and related pipes, venturis, and associated equipment to trickle down to us wanna be's!

Who nows I may actually be able to buy a PA engine set-up and not lie too much to the wife about how much I spent!!

just go electric too......       

[Howard Rush]

In keeping with my habit of critiquing my betters, here's what I think, based on my two (2) weeks of electric flying:

1: Electric systems are incredibly quiet, allowing me to fly starting at 6:00 AM at field that is less than a quarter mile from my home. That field is surrounded by other homes and I have not had any complaints. I think that they just don’t even know I’m there!

I'm sure Bob is prudent and puts traffic cones around his circle or posts a lookout.  However, there is the dangerous combination of 1) people too dumb to start an engine flying control line airplanes, 2) people flying in populated places because they won't get run off because of noise, and 3) the public wandering through the circle and getting beheaded.  

2: Smell. When I first demonstrated the electric power system to my wife, her only comment was, “Great, your clothes won’t smell anymore!” In fact, neither does my new van.

I like the smell, but sometimes it's nice not to have it.

3. No vibration (As you mentioned in your post, Dennis). I can indeed build lighter structures for electric powered models. To be fair, however, if I were to experience a prop strike on takeoff and broke the prop, the resulting vibration might well destroy the model. Here is where I am in favor of allowing the use of 2.4 GHz radio systems on board on both electric and glow models to facilitate shutting off the motor/engine in case of such an occurrence.

Good idea.  Electric models can also have automatic shutoff systems that can work much faster than a radio with a guy in the loop.

4. No CG shift through the flight. This one was a major eye opener, especially when I performed an overhead eight for the first time in a heavy wind, and also the entry loop into the Four Leaf Clover in a heavy wind. On a glow model the fuel starts burning off from the moment that the engine is started, and by the time you are ready to perform the Overhead Eight the fuel load is diminished to the point where you are flying a model with a decidedly aft CG from where you started. Don’t think this is an issue? Next time you are at the field when there is a significant wind, fill your tank, start your engine, takeoff and go right into the Overhead Eight. You will find that it is much, much easier to maintain the round loop track as compared to flying that maneuver when the CG has shifted aft as in the end of a flight. The same holds true for the entry loop into the Clover.

I find I can practice outside squares to unwind my lines.  I also found that these things take a different CG location than the IC-powered models.

5. The ability to adjust the vertical CG of the model infinitely. Isn’t it amazing that perhaps 80 to 90 percent of the glow powered stunt models that are built, when first test flown seem to have a slight warp that makes the outboard wing fly slightly high upright and slightly low inverted? Is it just an amazing coincidence that that exact amount of warp in the same direction is present in so many models? The usual response is to “tweak” a flap to get the wings level, or, if you have an adjustable tab, moving that to make the wings level. Either way, the model just never seems to fly as friendly as it should. I’m here to tell you that the culprit is a vertical CG that is too low. As the model circulates at the end of the lines, the weight that is positioned below the vertical center of gravity is thrown outward, and the outside wing rides high upright and low inverted. And, you cannot move the tank up in the fuselage to achieve the proper vertical CG for two reasons: 1. It will make the engine run differently upright versus inverted, and, 2: The fuel would burn off through the flight anyway and the wing would gradually rise as the flight progressed. With electric, you can move the battery around up and down, and fore and aft, to achieve the optimal vertical (roll) and longitudinal (pitch) centers of gravity. I make several battery holders that position the battery in different places. When I find the optimal trim, I simply make a bunch of holders and put one on each battery. Problem solved.

In my case, the vertical CG came out right on new IC airplanes I've made and really wrong on my first electric.  

6: Mass location. The center of the mass of the weight in the nose of an electric model is closer to the actual center of gravity, making the pitch moment shorter. This allows you to turn a tighter corner and lock the model on target better. The electric motors we use are much lighter than the equivalent glow engine, and the battery makes up the remainder of the weight. The center of the mass of that weight is further aft in the model.

Bob is actually saying that an electric airplane can have a lower moment of inertia for a given CG than an IC-powered airplane.  That's because the stuff in the nose of the electric is a lot heavier.  Bob is touting that as a virtue.  The same thing would be true of a Fox .35 plus a huge blob of lead compared to the Fox .35 without the lead.  

7: Quicker trimming. With glow you have to fly six minute flights to get a handle adjustment or to make tip weight adjustments to get the wings level. With electric you simply set the timer to 60 second flights (or less) and fly six times on one battery. Presto; a great handle adjustment or other necessary trim changes in a fraction of the time and for far less money (Fuel is now nominally a buck a flight).

And the motor runs the same, so you don't need to worry about that variable.

8: The ability to test fly your model before you paint it if you desire. I don’t actually take advantage of this, because I attach my moveable surfaces after I paint. I might just find a way to change that because the advantage of knowing that I installed the stab centerline in the correct relation to the wing centerline is so desirable.

Of course, your IC friends will blow fuel all over your unpainted airplane.  I could skip the Isocyanate Death Paint clearcoat with electric, but I'd worry about other people dripping or burping on it.

10: No fuel soakage. I just finished rebuilding the Crossfire that was damaged last year at the Nats when a rogue dust devil picked it up and slammed it into the ground. Rebuilding and refinishing is always a pain, but much less so when there is no fuel residue/soakage with which to contend.

This is a bigger deal than it sounds.  I continually am finding new advantages to not having that oil blowing around.  It overwhelms the disadvantage of having to oil the tailwheel and stooge manually.

[Steve Hines]

The best thing is the one you like. I happy to see all the new things coming out. Bob allways takes my call and helps me as much as I can understand. The same with Randy. If new things bring in new people and old thing brings back old people this is a good thing. With all the help out there is what makes control line a great hobby. I have never had any one tell me what I should fly, only who I need to talk too if I needed help with what I wanted to try.

Steve

[Bill Little]

Fortunately all of this discussion has been more civil than the discussions that occurred when pipes started to really make head way into stunt.  At that time is was ridiculous.

I don't think anyone can dispute that there are certain pluses that electric brings to the table and the way things always go, electric will just become better and better.

The question is:  Just what system do you want to fly.  In my case I might just stay with IC as long as I can.  I have no delusions of making the Top 20.  My son, in his 30's, will probably start trying more and more of the electric game.  For me, it is the "security" of knowing a system and having plenty of IC engines around that are in great shape!

The Top guys will always use whatever they can to compete.  Glow engines are not done yet, but the writing is on the wall that electrics are to be taken seriously.

Bill

[schuang]

Another one just joined the dark side of electric...

Sean

[schuang]

more photo...

[schuang]

here is more...

[Bill Little]

Hi Sean,

That is a really good looking model!  I am especially impressed with th elouvers and the treatment of the outlet on the nose block.

Did you make a fixture to stamp the louvers?

Thanks!
Bill

[Dan Bregar]

Sean

I'm jealous !  Way to go !  Beautiful !  Slick !  Fantastic ! and very very pretty too !! 

[schuang]

Hi Sean,

That is a really good looking model!  I am especially impressed with th elouvers and the treatment of the outlet on the nose block.

Did you make a fixture to stamp the louvers?

Thanks!
Bill

I am just a photographer and I wish it is mine also....
This is John callentine's new electric plane.

Regards,

Sean

[john e. holliday]

Need John to tell us more about this beautiful ship.   I see he has put a lot of thought into it.

[Dick Pacini]

I have a comment about electric power that hasn't been mentioned yet.  Several posters have pointed out the advantage of being able to fly in a schoolyard without disturbing the neighbors.  That is a plus.  I think there is also an element of PERCEIVED SAFETY with electrics.  Not from the modelers but in the eyes of the public.  For some reason, the low hum of the electric powerplant appears tamer than the muffled growl of an IC unit.  Of course, we all know that a prop strike on a hand is the same, regardless if powered by glow fuel or batteries.

Now, that is my opinion, but for a moment, consider that the lower cost AMA Park Pilot license is only available to operate electric powered RC planes that are limited by speed and weight. The Park Pilot AMA insurance coverage is also less than for IC powered models,
("an appropriate level of liability coverage").  This a sign that the AMA regards electric models less of a danger.  Finally, would it be conceivable to grant a Park Pilot License to an electric PA pilot as long as his airplane didn't exceed 60mph or weigh over 32 ounces?  I think this challenge will be brought up in the future.

[Dennis Moritz]

I thought I would be pounded by the electric advocates for aligning their pastime with ballet, while labeling IC macho/manly. I was even hoping to offend ((a little)) since I hate electric-- less so these days. Doesn't feel like I offended anyone. If anything there's a nostalgic haze in the IC exhaust. Sunday, at our Philly Flyer Contest, Dan Banjock flew Mike Palko's electric Mustang for the first time. Dan's verdict, maybe next time. He was impressed. Lots of electric sprinkled through the classes at Sunday's contest. Sigh. The less accomplished, as well as the Expert, are finding a way.