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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Bill Morell on April 20, 2021, 02:36:50 PM
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I was selling a Tom Lay reworked engine on the classifieds. Made it clear that if the buyer wanted pictures to let me know where to send them. Dude says he wants it. I get shipping costs. Now he wants pictures, no problem. Sent them off. Claims engine is POS, dirty and beat up. Told me he doesn't want it now. I responded with "great" updated post with still for sale. Asked people that if you say that you're going to buy something to please follow through. Never identified him. Now I'm getting threatening messages from him . He wants to actually physically fight! Unbelievable. Seller beware if you sell anything or offer to to this guy.
Anyone who has ever had a engine done by Tom knows that he didn't rebuild junk. Nor does he send them back with bad bearings or dirty. I have never started this engine and said so in the ad. It is just the way Tom sent it back to me. Pictures of this engine are below. Would someone please tell me how it is this is a POS,with bad bearings, dirty and beat up? All of these accusations were made by him from looking at these pictures.
My thanks to my wife and Dennis for posting pics and the resizing. Also to Craig Beswick for his instructions.
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I was selling a Tom Lay reworked engine on the classifieds. Made it clear that if the buyer wanted pictures to let me know where to send them. Dude says he wants it. I get shipping costs. Now he wants pictures, no problem. Anyone who has ever had a engine done by Tom knows that he didn't rebuild junk. Nor does he send them back with bad bearings or dirty. I have never started this engine and said so in the ad. It is just the way Tom sent it back to me. Look at the guys response to me. Pictures to come if I can figure out how to post them.
I'll second that Bill. I sent Tom a ST G21/.46 and it took him quite a while to get back to me. Turned out he somehow damaged the engine I sent, so he went out and purchased a replacement, then gave it his full treatment.
Moral to the story: Tom didn't send out junk, even if it cost him money.
Dennis
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Thank you for that Dennis. Can you resize pictures so that they'll fit on here? Send me your phone and I'll text them over.
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Thank you for that Dennis. Can you resize pictures so that they'll fit on here? Send me your phone and I'll text them over.
You're asking the wrong guy. :):):) I have all I can do to make a call with my cell phone.
But - send them to me by email and I'll get 'er done - AirClassix@usfamily.net.
Dennis
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I'll ad my testimony for Tom Lay to these. He did an OS 46VF for me that was as good as anything out there, went out of his way during the process. We miss his faithful service.
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A picture is worth a thousand words ... ?
Dennis
(http://)
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Thanks Dennis! That is perfect.
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I was selling a Tom Lay reworked engine on the classifieds. Made it clear that if the buyer wanted pictures to let me know where to send them. Dude says he wants it. I get shipping costs. Now he wants pictures, no problem. Sent them off. Claims engine is POS, dirty and beat up. Told me he doesn't want it now. I responded with "great" updated post with still for sale. Asked people that if you say that you're going to buy something to please follow through. Never identified him. Now I'm getting threatening messages from him . He wants to actually physically fight! Unbelievable. Seller beware if you sell anything or offer to to this guy.
Anyone who has ever had a engine done by Tom knows that he didn't rebuild junk. Nor does he send them back with bad bearings or dirty. I have never started this engine and said so in the ad. It is just the way Tom sent it back to me. Pictures of this engine are below. Would someone please tell me how it is this is a POS,with bad bearings, dirty and beat up? My thanks to my wife and Dennis for posting pics and the resizing. Also to Craig Beswick for his instructions.
Well Bill, if I were you I'd stay clear of this loose cannon. Never know what he might do.
Good luck, Jerry
PS: I'd like to know who it is.
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There is nothing to be gained by identifying him. If he elects to that's on him.
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It's good you found out before the sale.
Engine looks clean to me, probably just some negotiation tactic?
Motorman 8)
IDK. If that was what it was it was very strange way of going about it. I have to agree with you that I feel fortunate to have not got to the point of shipping it.
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Some years back, I bought an engine from Tom Lay. I can't remember what it was but it was new. I contacted Tom because I thought he engraved his initials on every engine he reworked. He said he did but somehow this one didn't get etched. He asked me to go ahead and engrave it but I didn't have the tool and felt uncomfortable and thought down the road, someone familiar with his engraving might accuse me of fraud. It was decided that I would send it back to him and he would mark it. I didn't act right away. Subsequently, Tom passed away.
Some time went on and I had never even mounted that engine. It was exactly as I purchased it. Shortly after, I started selling my collection of 12 brand new current engines and high end kits. I advertised the TL engine and had a buyer. I told him the circumstances and provided copies of my emails back and forth with Tom Lay confirming everything. The buyer purchased the engine and shortly after he started in about how that engine was just a new engine that had never been worked on and that I overcharged him. I pointed out the documentation I furnished but he wouldn't accept the explanation. He was sure I had screwed him.
I often wondered if Tom did make a mistake and sent me an engine that was stock but he told me it had been reworked but he forgot the engraving. I trusted the man at his word and just sold the engine as I had bought it. After his passing, it was a moot issue.
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Some years back, I bought an engine from Tom Lay. I can't remember what it was but it was new. I contacted Tom because I thought he engraved his initials on every engine he reworked. He said he did but somehow this one didn't get etched. He asked me to go ahead and engrave it but I didn't have the tool and felt uncomfortable and thought down the road, someone familiar with his engraving might accuse me of fraud. It was decided that I would send it back to him and he would mark it. I didn't act right away. Subsequently, Tom passed away.
Some time went on and I had never even mounted that engine. It was exactly as I purchased it. Shortly after, I started selling my collection of 12 brand new current engines and high end kits. I advertised the TL engine and had a buyer. I told him the circumstances and provided copies of my emails back and forth with Tom Lay confirming everything. The buyer purchased the engine and shortly after he started in about how that engine was just a new engine that had never been worked on and that I overcharged him. I pointed out the documentation I furnished but he wouldn't accept the explanation. He was sure I had screwed him.
I often wondered if Tom did make a mistake and sent me an engine that was stock but he told me it had been reworked but he forgot the engraving. I trusted the man at his word and just sold the engine as I had bought it. After his passing, it was a moot issue.
You have to remember one thing, that Tom didn't necessarily grind on parts or do anything that would be immediately visible if you looked at one of his "reworked" engines. Especially if it was a Super Tigre engine. One indication on ST engines is Tom installed the venturis with a restrictor needle valve instead of the sprinkler system that was stock. It looks completely natural and you can see where he blocked off the hole where the cinch bolt went. He usually put the blue do-dad on the prop shaft and snugged the prop nut and washer down against that. All the rest of the work was in trueing up the bore if needed, replacing bearing if needed, and fitting the ring. Other brands of engines got similar attention. On his hybrid engines, you would have to take them completely apart and know what parts were what to know. It's a shame you had this experience and Tom's health condition was probably the root cause of him forgetting to add the engraving I would sincerely doubt that he send a NIB engine by mistake, especially if they weren't on the market any longer.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Dan, I have the blue doodad in the box. I called Tom after about 6 months to see when it might be done? He said he had just finished it and it was a excellent engine. The reason for taking so long was that Tom would do them in batches. When he had enough then he would work them over. The engraving can clearly be seen on the lug.
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Dan, I have the blue doodad in the box. I called Tom after about 6 months to see when it might be done? He said he had just finished it and it was a excellent engine. The reason for taking so long was that Tom would do them in batches. When he had enough then he would work them over. The engraving can clearly be seen on the lug.
Hi Bill;
I'm sure your engine is legit. The term "rework" is what confuses some people. "Set Up" is a more correct term depending on the engine brand. This has been covered before. A stock ST.40,.46, or .60 will run just fine with the addition of a venturi and needle valve, and if a sprinkler type venturi is what the customer wanted, I'm sure that would be the way he would have delivered it. Unless you looked for his engraving, it would look just like a stock engine. Tom liked the restrictor type venturi set up like your engine has, but he did such a nice job of installing those that they looked like stock to me, and one way to tell his engines from stock is to look for that plus the cinch bolt hole being plugged up. Every thing else he did was just fit work, heat treating parts and such. This is stuff you can't see. I don't think he ever did any retiming on them but I could be wrong and some one else may have details. A stock engine will run fine, but one that Tom had "set up" would be better and the difference is noticeable, and would last longer with his cylinder work and heat treated ring. I'm sure there are a few other things to his treatment that he just didn't tell anybody about. I have been working on a ST.60 for a fellow club member that is one handled by George Aldrich and is engraved all over with "GMA" and "George Aldrich Special" but in just looking at the parts you really can't see anything noticeable. In looking at the combustion chamber, it looks like he may have done some work there but is hard to tell, and if you were looking at a picture of it, you certainly couldn't tell that, and wouldn't be able to tell that even if you have it in your hand. This is the point I was trying to get across. As far as the blue "doodad", I have seen guys put those on stock engines and try to pass those off an T&L engines!! So you have to be aware of that! Good luck with your sale and I'm sure you will find a good home for the engine.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Dan, I may just keep it. This whole deal has put a damper on selling it. As you know and others can attest to, I never sell junk and make sure that they make it there safe.
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You have to remember one thing, that Tom didn't necessarily grind on parts or do anything that would be immediately visible if you looked at one of his "reworked" engines. Especially if it was a Super Tigre engine. One indication on ST engines is Tom installed the venturis with a restrictor needle valve instead of the sprinkler system that was stock. It looks completely natural and you can see where he blocked off the hole where the cinch bolt went. He usually put the blue do-dad on the prop shaft and snugged the prop nut and washer down against that. All the rest of the work was in trueing up the bore if needed, replacing bearing if needed, and fitting the ring. Other brands of engines got similar attention. On his hybrid engines, you would have to take them completely apart and know what parts were what to know. It's a shame you had this experience and Tom's health condition was probably the root cause of him forgetting to add the engraving I would sincerely doubt that he send a NIB engine by mistake, especially if they weren't on the market any longer.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
I never really doubted that the engine I had was reworked by Tom Lay, since I had the email documentation regarding the missing engraving. However, the guy who bought it from me said I had sold him a stock engine and my paperwork wasn't convincing to him.
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Here are some pictures of the ST 46 that Tom gave to me some time back. Well over 20 years ago. It also came with the blue do-dad. I still have it. It is packed away. It is one of the old dual ring 46's.
It will be going into a Walter Umland Seafire.
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That first picture is a good shot of the muffler adapter that Tom used to have made for ST engines with no muffler ears but do have the center web in the exhaust that is drilled and tapped for a bolt. The adapter bolts to the exhaust stack, is picked up and centered by a recessed lip on the case side, and you need to file a flat spot on the edges of the exhaust to clear the socket head screw heads. I had Jim Lee make a few for me, and I would bet that he at leats has the drawing he made from the sample I sent him. Easy to make if you have the machine tools. If I ever use mine, I might go one step further and apply some JB-Weld where it sits on the exhaust stack edge just for a little something extra to help hold it.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee