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Author Topic: Tigre 60 really?  (Read 4538 times)

Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Tigre 60 really?
« on: January 09, 2018, 05:22:41 PM »
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Offline Doug Moisuk

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 05:47:23 PM »
Randy Smith prepared and I think it's a Randy Smith muffler as well. But I am not sure about the muffler. Very powerful.

Online Motorman

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 06:40:01 PM »
Not sure on my eur conversion but I think you could get a PA with all the trimmings for less than that directly from RS.
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

Online Gerald Arana

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 07:27:24 PM »
That's about $525..........And the shipping? Must be made out of unobtainium!

Jerry

Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 09:13:46 PM »
Quote
What is so great about this engine for the price? 

The Profit .  ;D

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 09:17:18 PM »
Not sure on my eur conversion but I think you could get a PA with all the trimmings for less than that directly from RS.

     I don't know whether they are available right now or not, but I would certainly prefer to have the PA, particularly for much less money. A RO-Jett 61 is certainly less and it is far superior to the ST60 as well,  as is a 40VF, which you might be able to get for $125 since they are sitting round rusting in drawers around the country for the past 20 years. Even Windy declared the ST60 uncompetitive in 1993, and wanted to start a separate event so they wouldn't have to compete with modern engines.

      Brett
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 10:06:07 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2018, 11:16:59 PM »
I doubt it's worth a third of that even in perfect condition.  I also don't doubt that someone will buy it!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 02:47:04 AM »
Let's all combine money to buy it and we can send it to each other say every 2 months?  ;D ;)
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Online Dane Martin

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 06:08:03 AM »
Let's all combine money to buy it and we can send it to each other say every 2 months?  ;D ;)

The time share tigre!

Offline Vitalis Pilkionis

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Online Dane Martin

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2018, 08:51:38 AM »
My word! I'll never complain about the price of an engine again!

Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2018, 08:55:06 AM »
Hummmmmmm I wonder if Randy Smith will build me a OS46VF... and then I can put it on eBay... and then I'll be rich VD~
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Online Gerald Arana

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2018, 08:59:06 AM »
Don't go cheap, guys. Let's grab OS instead...

https://www.ebay.es/itm/control-line-engine-OS-46-VF-Randy-Smith-tuned-pipe-carbon-Randy-Smith/232614767396?hash=item3628ebab24:g:4ZIAAOSwXaRaSKCB


$946.00 !  Phtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt!
Jerry
PS: That's the Bronks cheer!

Offline Dietmar Morbitzer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2018, 09:00:24 AM »
     I don't know whether they are available right now or not, but I would certainly prefer to have the PA, particularly for much less money. A RO-Jett 61 is certainly less and it is far superior to the ST60 as well,  as is a 40VF, which you might be able to get for $125 since they are sitting round rusting in drawers around the country for the past 20 years. Even Windy declared the ST60 uncompetitive in 1993, and wanted to start a separate event so they wouldn't have to compete with modern engines.

      Brett
Brett,
please tell me why you hate ST60 engines and their well known stunt run. A lot of pilots around the world
wont burn the circle with a chainsaw sounding ear killing crying piped thing you call engine. You left no chance out
to blame Super Tigre engines whenever a topic is talking about. Was something bad happened in your youth with
ST engines or do you lost to much competitions ? I only want to understand. (This is ironic and not to serious, please)
Dietmar
BTW when they are not competitive since 1993, why did they still win WC?

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2018, 10:04:38 AM »
Brett,
please tell me why you hate ST60 engines and their well known stunt run. A lot of pilots around the world
wont burn the circle with a chainsaw sounding ear killing crying piped thing you call engine. You left no chance out
to blame Super Tigre engines whenever a topic is talking about. Was something bad happened in your youth with
ST engines or do you lost to much competitions ? I only want to understand. (This is ironic and not to serious, please)
Dietmar
BTW when they are not competitive since 1993, why did they still win WC?

     I don't hate them. I say there are much better options in the year 2018, including 4-strokes, several different widely available semi-custom engines like the PA or RO-Jett, feedback electric systems, and even a better version of the ST60 - the Discovery-Retro 60 (which does everything the ST60 was claimed to do, but never actually did - like a ST60 with actual engineers working on it, instead of salesmen).

    BTW, I referred to Windy's comments about how they were obsolete. He spend about 5000 words trying to explain why you needed to have  a separate event for 4-2 break engines and wood props (Model Aviation 1993 NATS report) because they were uncompetitive otherwise. Which was one of the more accurate things he ever said or wrote.

   What I do have a personal animus over regarding the ST60 is not the engine itself, but some of the ST60 promoters/salesman. Not all of them, just a few - but they were (and still are) relentless. They cause the event, many of my friends, and me, many hours of irritation over the topic, as far as I can tell, so they could sell off the last of their ST60s. The second that happened, hey, guess what, we found something better - Saito 4-strokes (for which we have just acquired a franchise). After which it continued with new players, sometimes to the point that something Wynn Paul allegedly did in 1985 was later attributed to, say, Frank McMillan or Ted Fancher or Paul Walker, whoever's character they thought needed assassination at the time.

   They played (play) the victim, time after time, always being "kept down by the man" by the "eiltist" - a game that some of the hanger-on STILL play as recently as a few weeks ago. We had people threatening various things up to and including *shooting a judge* leading briefly to the cancellation of the 1997 team trials which later proceeded with an ARMED GUARD,  the near-destruction of PAMPA over the stupid misinterpretation of a profit statement, a PAMPA president going FAR out of his way to bad-mouth the most revered administrator, in print, over a ridiculous perceived slight, a lawsuit that led to a retired Iowa schoolteacher sued by a millionaire for "wiretapping" for having overhead a conversation that wound up getting tossed out of Federal district court as "vexatious" and the on-going attempts to destroy the event over the BOM. We had a demand to overturn PAMPA election results, apparently over his very slight dismissal of a Saito engine, but claimed to be "racism" or something over the use of the phrase "Mama Mia!".

    I have a question for you, and I genuinely want to know the answer  - why is it that you think saying a particular thing you seem to like, or is in some way your favorite, is not the best, translate to "hate" for you?

    I don't understand it at all, I am not emotionally invested in any engine, I use the engine (or anything else) that seems like it gives me the best chance of winning. I offer my observations to keep people from getting led astray, like thinking their $500+ would be well-spent on an engine that was more-or-less given up on 20 years ago by even the most ardent supporters. I don't hate the ST60 (or  Fox 35, or Saito 56, etc), I just don't think they are a good way to go to be competitive in stunt in the year 2018. 1955 it was a different story, 1985 it was a different story, 1993 it was a different story, and it's a different story now.

    Brett

Offline Dietmar Morbitzer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2018, 10:31:29 AM »
Brett,
I agree the asked price in this offer is a joke and not
a realistic price. At the competitions here in Europe
the price for a ST60 is about 120-150.- Euro.
A new one is avaiable for 250.- Euro. I feel when talking
comes to ST60 you react very emotional in a matter i can't understand.
I understand that you want to beware people from buying or using
unreliable stuff and spend to much money for it, thats fine.
With the ST60 you don't going wrong. You can use 3 blade carbon fibre
propellers and quiet mufflers and have a bulletproof powerfull system.
I start 2013 with F2B and have since 2014 flown 2 EC's and 28 competitions
in Germany and Europe. I remember 3 yes three piped airplanes,
one 4-stroke yes only one, eastern europe competitors using very succesfull DR or Stalker engines.
 But countless ST51-60 ships and also countless electric planes. One of the succesful pilots
with pipes is building now a ST60 ship, so I can't be to wrong, out of my sight.
I can't answer everything you wrote not because i will not, only not
understanding all words correct, please excuse me.

Dietmar

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2018, 11:08:00 AM »
The ST60 I used would not start when inverted.  Always had to turn the plane over and use an electric starter.  All my other engines will start when inverted.  So I quickly got rid of the ST.
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Offline Kim Doherty

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2018, 03:05:54 PM »

Dietmar said:

"A new one is available for 250.- Euro. I feel when talking
comes to ST60 you react very emotional in a matter i can't understand."


Dietmar, Brett certainly does not need my support in this but I don't think Brett is emotionally invested in the defence of the ST60. He does however have significant experience that only comes from having done this for a considerable period of time at a consistently high level. In this game that counts for a lot. Give it another 40 years and you will begin to understand.

"I understand that you want to beware people from buying or using
unreliable stuff and spend to much money for it, thats fine."


And that is the point. Compared to what is available TODAY for the same outlay it should not rate a second glance.


"With the ST60 you don't going wrong. You can use 3 blade carbon fibre
propellers and quiet mufflers and have a bulletproof powerfull system."


Well if this were 1985 you might have a very good system. It would not then or ever have been a "Bulletproof" system. It all depends on what the definition of "IS" is. At a large contest you may have an official flight at 8:00 a.m. when it is calm, cool, moist and high air density (you were able to get a practice flight at 7:15 weren't you? -- oh, too bad) So off you go and the ST60 runs very well. (just not quite as fast or breaking just when you wanted it too). You get a good score (well for you it's good but maybe not for someone else who is trying to win) and head out for breakfast then at 10:00 a.m. you go to the practice field and Oh! Oh! the other 89 competitors had the same idea. No practice for you. Your next flight is 2:00 p.m. on another circle. So with no practice flight to get a good setting off you go! But it is no longer calm, the temperature is nearing 38C, there is no moisture from where you are standing to the Atlantic ocean, the air density is 1200M. Where will you set the needle? You can guess (and if you have the experience you will come pretty close (most of the time) (just not all of the time). Will you make a good flight?.....perhaps or perhaps not. And that is not the experience you would have with a well set up tuned pipe and certainly not the experience you would have with a properly set electric system. So why would you shoot yourself in the foot intentionally when there was no need to???

"I start 2013 with F2B and have since 2014 flown 2 EC's and 28 competitions
in Germany and Europe. I remember 3 yes three piped airplanes,
one 4-stroke yes only one, eastern europe competitors using very successful DR or Stalker engines.
 But countless ST51-60 ships and also countless electric planes."


It is always refreshing to see new blood eager to learn and compete at the highest level.

"One of the successful pilots
with pipes is building now a ST60 ship, so I can't be to wrong, out of my sight."


How does one persons actions make you not be wrong? or at least only marginally right? Kornmier's WC win will be the last one with a .60 powered model. Not because you could not get lucky but because people just do not get to the top by betting on long shots.


Kim

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2018, 03:13:21 PM »
Well, in my humble opinion, after owning at least 7 of them and flying them for several years when they were marginally competitive in the 80's and 90's is that they were marginally competitive in a very good airplane that they eventually would shake apart.  Yes they won many National, Local and even World championships with a lot of work and special parts.

Today they are an anachronism that has a place in stunt history but very little else!  There are many engines available today that are better, more reliable and easier to deal with straight out of the box than any Super Tigre 60.

PA's, Ro Jett"s, Stalkers and even a couple of Magnum engines reworked by Randy Smith, are head and shoulders above the Old ST60, in reliability, ease of handling, power and stunt suitability.

All I can say is if you think the ST60 is still a competitive engine you have never flown a good airplane with a PA65 on a pipe!  Oh yeah it will last much longer, run better, and give much more controlled runs in any weather, especially wind!

To date I believe it's the only engine capable of competing with the best electric setups!
With the possible exception of Davids PA 75.

Enough said about a poor old tired engine!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2018, 06:00:20 PM »
CRIKEY : Thats like saying tri 5 Chevs are Obsolete .  :o :o

Most people go out to fly , not to win .

 Hadnt seen a plane, almost , for over twenty years . R C Float meet , asked if it was a Super Tigre ( 60 ) as it sure sounded like one .

Answer Was YES .  ;D

So We can Blamre the Super Tigre 60 for getting me back in the Hobby . Or Sport  .

Sport being Sporting. Not Commercial Employment .  :o :o

One can also regard them as a Art Form , and Period Engineering Excellance . As well as a Historical Artifact .





As well as experianceing a Authentic Period Experiance / Anachronism . Thats Still Competitive .  LL~ Sorry personal dig Brett , the last bit .

 :) no offence .  ;) Good to see ' clearing the woodwork ' , better than veiled insinuation ( control & manipulation )
Everybodys entititled to there point of view .
Problem with egos and ignorance / self intrest in most ' clubs ' of all types .
Where if its ' against the stop watch ' its hard to argue with .
digital mapping in F2B W Champs'd cover that .  S?P VD~

Were some right retarded sh*ts in Yachting in my Fathers Day . The Yacht disallowed in the Sydney Hobart as being ' to weak '
(it was cleaning up in N Z and upset ' the Establishment ' there too ), later won the Trans Pac Twice , and is Still Going Strong .

I dont think the Super Tigre 60s Day is Done yet , and in any case many of its later competitors are derived from It.
So where does that leave us .

WHOOPS .

http://racersreunioncom.jamroomhosting.com/data/media/0/0/Ning_Media/discussions/5/5153_discussions.jpg
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:01:57 PM by Matt Spencer »

Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2018, 06:08:14 PM »


The Best Fox 35 is a Fox 35 ? the Mills .75 is still doing quite well too, but WHAT is the Best Super Tigre 60 ?? a Staker 61 RE ,  :-\.

Healthy Debate is informative & enlivening , Garofali probly wasnt as much of a barsteward as Ferrrarri . LL~ S?P n~ mw~

IS THERE a More succesful or More Renowned engine , in World Champs Competition !  ;D >:D H^^ Than the S T 60 Victory .

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2018, 06:34:20 PM »
After reading this thread I'm confused. Last year I finished up a Brodak Strega powered by a Big Jim ST 60. To be honest, the plane was really too heavy to be competitive ,but the engine ran (runs) beautifully.It's easy starting, gives a wonderful 4-2-4 break. My only complaint is how sloppy it is to operate.
I liked the engine so much that I'm finishing up a Shark 45 modified to accept the ST 60. I love the "user friendly" nature of this engine. This year I'll be flying Advanced.....it seemed like a nice combination of plane and engine. What am I missing here? Cheers,PhillySkip
 
PS I do have a new Brodak SV11 ARC that was to have an ST60 as well.....

Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2018, 06:38:15 PM »
These Things are obsolete , and a bit of a pig too , but theyll cost you your eye teeth .





They couldnt give the last of them away ,
 even after theyed fitted windscreens and other rubbish , and had to burn the factory down to get rid of them  .

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2018, 06:55:43 PM »
Thanks for sharing that footage of Hawthorne and the D Jag. The D Jag, in my estimation, is one of the most beautiful cars ever built. There is one here in Philly at the Simeon Museum. I drool every time I see it.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2018, 10:10:15 PM »
After reading this thread I'm confused. Last year I finished up a Brodak Strega powered by a Big Jim ST 60. To be honest, the plane was really too heavy to be competitive ,but the engine ran (runs) beautifully.It's easy starting, gives a wonderful 4-2-4 break. My only complaint is how sloppy it is to operate.
I liked the engine so much that I'm finishing up a Shark 45 modified to accept the ST 60. I love the "user friendly" nature of this engine. This year I'll be flying Advanced.....it seemed like a nice combination of plane and engine. What am I missing here? Cheers,PhillySkip
 
PS I do have a new Brodak SV11 ARC that was to have an ST60 as well.....

No one is saying that if you're a sport flier and have a ST60 that you should hang the engine in the closet and not use it.

However if you're really serious about competing now in 2018 and willing to spend 400+dollars on a competitive engine you will be foolish to do it on a ST60. 

Competition at top levels (even in Advanced) has surpassed the abilities of the ST60. 

If you have one and wish to use it, by all means Do So.  If you don't have one and wish to be competitive you will be better served by a more modern choice!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Jared Hays

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2018, 11:17:18 PM »
Yes Tigre 60's are completely obsolete and everyone should send all of them directly to me for proper disposal...    ;D ;D ;D

Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2018, 02:45:12 AM »
Nobody's giving up on them cause I got no hits on a wanted Randy Smith tube muffler for one.
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Offline Don Jenkins

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2018, 06:31:58 AM »
I recently obtained a serialized ST .60 along with a hand written letter from Tom Lay (3-4-1990) explaining what was done to the engine and how to break it in.  Its been in the box since.  Yes, it will go into a plane some day!

Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2018, 07:30:47 AM »
I recently obtained a serialized ST .60 along with a hand written letter from Tom Lay (3-4-1990) explaining what was done to the engine and how to break it in.  Its been in the box since.  Yes, it will go into a plane some day!
What modifications did he do to it?
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2018, 07:45:55 AM »
Iíve bought ST60s for 100 bucks. Other folks I know have done the same. Iíve seen these work reliably in stunt. Iíve never seen a used PA or Ro-Jett for less than 300. New ones are 400. Climbing up in Advanced while learning and crashing influences my engine choice. Actually. Surprisingly enough. I flew at least one decent flight in Advanced at the last NATs with a plane/engine combo I bought for 100 dollars. Power was a thundertiger 36. A functional reliable power plant in an overweight plane. One of those 100 dollar tigers will be powering my this summer build. I hope. Knowledgeable friends, very competitive in stunt, have told me again and again, use the Tigre, wait on the PA 61 I bought a while back. When I read discussions like this it often seems to me that some of the most accomplished folks in our hobby underestimate their current proficiency and the time and talent needed to get in hailing distance of what the best do. Those of us on the lower rungs have a different perspective, often better served by way less expensive alternatives to the state of the art.


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« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 08:29:48 AM by Dennis Moritz »

Online Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2018, 08:45:21 AM »
Iíve bought ST60s for 100 bucks. Other folks I know have done the same. Iíve seen these work reliably in stunt. Iíve never seen a used PA or Ro-Jett for less than 300. New ones are 400. Climbing up in Advanced while learning and crashing influences my engine choice. Actually. Surprisingly enough. I flew at least one decent flight in Advanced at the last NATs with a plane/engine combo I bought for 100 dollars. Power was a thundertiger 36. A functional reliable power plant in an overweight plane. One of those 100 dollar tigers will be powering my this summer build. I hope. Knowledgeable friends, very competitive in stunt, have told me again and again, use the Tigre, wait on the PA 61 I bought a while back. When I read discussions like this it often seems to me that some of the most accomplished folks in our hobby underestimate their current proficiency and the time and talent needed to get in hailing distance of what the best do. Those of us on the lower rungs have a different perspective, often better served by way less expensive alternatives to the state of the art.


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Many years ago, while we were talking about the available hardware, one of the Italian acrobatics gurus told me: "Bisogna perseguire l'eccellenza..." ( "We must pursue excellence ..." ).
It is useless to keep stock of good material for the best of times.
Now is the time to improve and then time to use the best materials we have available.
If and when we are at a higher level, there will be other quality ardware and perhaps that of today will be obsolete.
I do not believe that in any other sport, an athlete who wants to compete seriously (seriously not at a high level) uses materials from 20 years ago.
Anyone who wants to benefit from the latest generation equipment, even amateurs.
I do not want to say that a beginner must use a PA75, but only that today there are much more reliable systems than a glorious FOX35
The discourse is different if we are not interested in competitions (except for the old timers), in this case we can find satisfying use perhaps not highly reliable engines, but that have a special charm to our eyes.

Massimo

Offline Dietmar Morbitzer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2018, 08:57:23 AM »
No one is saying that if you're a sport flier and have a ST60 that you should hang the engine in the closet and not use it.

However if you're really serious about competing now in 2018 and willing to spend 400+dollars on a competitive engine you will be foolish to do it on a ST60

Randy, you are right, but as the name says top five there is still only enough space for 5, and all the others are behind.
A hobby is still a hobby and a lot of pilots enjoy flying by itself and also don't like the nervsawing sound from a piped engine.
Everybody can choose for himself how competitive he want to be and feel good wile flying. I came from RC pylonracing
and start learning F2B because control line give me the feeling through the handle when the engine works the pattern.
I also enjoy 4-2-4 break and for this satisfaction I accept a disadvantage, which is not realy there i think. Why? Later down.

Competition at top levels (even in Advanced) has surpassed the abilities of the ST60. 
I'm in luck, not in Europe.

If you have one and wish to use it, by all means Do So.  If you don't have one and wish to be competitive you will be better served by a more modern choice!
 Here is my later:
If you want to be a top competitor in 2018 you have to use an electric motor with active rpm control.
So if ST60's and all engines like them are so old fashioned, why do all top level electric  pilots
fly 5.5-6 inch propellers in pitch and increase rpm when nose up and reduce rpm when nose down?
Why do they not run a 3.75 pitch prop with 110000 rpm with constant speed?
 Please this is a hobby and talking about and experimenting
things is an important point, espacially in control line stunt, I hope not to be misunderstood.
Dietmar



Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2018, 09:10:31 AM »
Randy C.....I actually own 3 of the ST60s . One, I bought at a flea market for $5,cleaned it up, and put it on the test stand. It ran beautifully! Another one was given to me as a gift by Joe Adamusko. He stopped using it when he started flying some electric stuff and when he bought a couple of Ro Jett engines. This engine is in my Shark 45. The last one is the "Big Jim" model that powers my Strega.

You know, I kind of agree with Dennis on this. Until I learn how to fly where my bottoms are where they should be, my corners are square, my loops are round,and my hourglass remotely resembles an hourglass.......will having a more "modern" engine really make a difference? Cheers,PhillySkip

Offline Gerald Schamp

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2018, 10:57:08 AM »
Wow.

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2018, 01:23:31 PM »
Skip and a couple others have a point.  It really doesn't require a $400 engine to progress through the Advanced level, or into the Expert level.  Many modelers have done just that using the lowly OS46LA, or similar low-cost engines.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2018, 02:05:44 PM »
A ST 60 won the world not so long ago. Beat a slew of PAs, Ro-Jetts, electrics and other names. I've seen many a PA and the like not running all that well in competition. Getting a glow engine to assist doing the shapes takes experience and skill. FPs and LAs can be worked with. The knowlege will transfer when flying dedicated stunt engines.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2018, 02:44:14 PM »


Dietmar,
Your ideas are good but your knowledge of piped engines is lacking.

Your idea that piped engines run at constant speed is at best simply not true.  A properly set up piped engine regulates the engine RPM and power to match the conditions.  It's just not as obvious to the ear because the sound does not abruptly break from 2 to 4 stroke.  The power is limited as a result of pressure changes in the pipe and cylinder of the engine!
As to your idea of very high RPM and very low pitch props, that goes back to an era when tuned pipes were in their infancy and very few if any current setups run like that!

A Typical PA65 setup runs a 12.25 to 12.5 three blade prop with a pitch of 4.25 to 4.5, with a launch RPM of 9500 to 9600 RPM and possibly picks up about 200 RPM in the air.  These medium pitch props tend to be more efficient on  acceleration and deceleration than higher pitched props!  On a modern large volume pipe, set with a long setting to regulate properly, the sound is fairly mellow.  Power is in fact far above the ability of even the very best special ST60 setups and regulates much better to avoid wind up in wind or speed up on down legs.  It also regulates much quicker than the simple lean rich condition of a typical 2-4 break where there is often a slight lag in operation between 2-4 cycle!

The difference in a 12 to 15 mph wind has to be experienced to be believed!

However all that said the real improvement in the modern piped engine is the reliability factor.  Because the pipe setting tends to control the engine speed the needle valve setting becomes far less critical.  Small changes in air temperature etc, practically go unnoticed.  One properly adjusted the set up becomes "bullet proof" beyond reasonable maintenance.  Keep the screws tight and keep and keep things reasonably clean and just fly the thing!

That's the real advantage to a good piped engine setup.  If you haven't tried it you will never understand why so many use it!  Personally I believe it to be far superior in that regard to even the best electric setups!

Also a good piped PA or RO Jett engine will outlast any ST60 style engine about 3 to 1!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2018, 02:54:30 PM »
I've seen many a PA and the like not running all that well in competition. Getting a glow engine to assist doing the shapes takes experience and skill. FPs and LAs can be worked with. The knowlege will transfer when flying dedicated stunt engines.

So using stuff that doesn't work very well will make you better when you start using stuff that does work well!  Now that has to be without a doubt the biggest load of BULL Crap ever put to pen!  Dream on Alice!

 LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2018, 03:13:08 PM »
What is the point of Randy's statement. Perhaps someone can explain. It takes skill and experience to make any glow engine work well in a stunt plane. These skills can be gained using FPs, LAs, and the like. Engines that can be had cheap. Until these skills are mastered buying a $400 engine is a waste.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2018, 04:20:11 PM »
What is the point of Randy's statement. Perhaps someone can explain. It takes skill and experience to make any glow engine work well in a stunt plane. These skills can be gained using FPs, LAs, and the like. Engines that can be had cheap. Until these skills are mastered buying a $400 engine is a waste.

The point of "Randy"s Statement" that always seems to elude people like Dennis is simply;  If you wish to limit yourself and make life as difficult as possible and your learning curve as long as possible by all means don't take advantage of the latest technology, instead start where all the old guys like me did with engines that had to be nursed, filed on, fiddled with, etc, etc, etc.  Then after just as many years as it took for us to improve to modern standards you will be able to do the same. 

Phhhtttttttt.  What a load of marlarkey!  That time to learn can be shortened tremendously by taking advantage of modern engines and modern airplanes.  I've seen it happen many times.  I've seen several people advance to expert levels of skill in a two to three years by simply using equipment that was properly designed and prepared while being helped by experts with the knowledge to explain how and why it worked. 

This of course precludes the profile crash to learn to fly straight and level which should take about one week!

Of course IF you are simply a sport flier who wishes to have fun flying round and round with the occasional loop, this does not apply to you.  Have fun!  This is a sport that can accommodate you also.  However if you wish to fly competitive stunt...don't mess around with JUNK from the past that the OLD guys like me had to use because it was what we had!  Believe me, nothing would have pleased most of us more than to have had access to a PA 65 or RO Jett 61 in 1970 and fore go all that "Knowledge" of having to make do with troublesome equipment that only held up progress in improvement!  Choose your own poison and do what you will!  I for one wish I had just started flying now instead of in 1952 with a FOX 29.

Life advances as does technology.  No one wants to return to the times when most babies died before they were three years old and the mean life expectancy was 50 years old. 

Why would you want to turn the technological clock back to 1952 and fly a large Fox 35 instead of a modern engine and airplane!

Unless, of course, you just like having fun playing with old toys!

Get serious while you still can.  When you get old and creaky it's a lot harder!

Randy Cuberly

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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2018, 05:06:17 PM »
Is an LA46 that hard to make work? I've seen many do what they need to. There are a lot skills to master to get a glow engine to fly stunt. Tank set up, fuel, needle setting, venturi size, prop, vibration trouble shooting and so on. Air frame construction. Trimming effects on engine run. And so on. Until you get a handle on this stuff, a PA or Ro-jett won't be of much use.

Yep. My club is full of folks who like to have fun with old toys. We have a lot of fun.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2018, 05:53:40 PM »
On the other hand, if you want the most direct route to fame and fortune in Control Line Stunt-- the most direct route with the least frustration and shortest learning curve, plug and play, electric.

Offline Jared Hays

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2018, 07:42:26 PM »
Well hell I'm convinced,  I'm gonna head up to my local Hobby Town USA tomorrow and pick me up a PA75 and a tuned pipe for my next stunt ship.

Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2018, 07:47:34 PM »
Well hell I'm convinced,  I'm gonna head up to my local Hobby Town USA tomorrow and pick me up a PA75 and a tuned pipe for my next stunt ship.
Get 2!
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Online Dan Berry

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2018, 08:04:06 PM »
Well hell I'm convinced,  I'm gonna head up to my local Hobby Town USA tomorrow and pick me up a PA75 and a tuned pipe for my next stunt ship.

Tell'em to look for it in the 'nitro motor' section of the store.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 08:53:45 PM by Dan Berry »

Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2018, 08:16:19 PM »
Quote
If and when we are at a higher level, there will be other quality ardware and perhaps that of today will be obsolete.
I do not believe that in any other sport, an athlete who wants to compete seriously (seriously not at a high level) uses materials from 20 years ago.

Yes & No . getting ' off subject '  . ifin 81 you can blow off TZ 350s  with a 55 T 100 R Triton , ' home made ' frame  etc . Some ' old un's ' sorted are better than a womble with a new one .

Flying Flying & flying , in multitudinous conditions can get you ' up to the mark ' .I think you learn to fly better flying something that ' takes a bit of work ' at the handle .

A Comp is a differant game however , so the whole approach & phychology thing comes in . Youll need to Jog 20 Km each day . VD~ S?P ;D

I find the G-51 pretty bulletproof & easy to operate . seems better than the Stalker 66 , so far . a 10 x 6 3 bl , or 12 x 5 " 11 5/8 , so it can ' cam up .
The HP 40 R PR was better in the wind .
a FSR 25 magnum " 58 bftt of .018 , in ' the wind ' in a .35 sized thing taught you a lot more about ' energy manadgement ' than a big overpowered barge ever would .

Ve Vill see vot zer sexties do , before long . But the Theory is theyre a Better .46, if in a traditional 46 sized plane , so we're told . H^^

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2018, 08:24:43 PM »
On the other hand, if you want the most direct route to fame and fortune in Control Line Stunt-- the most direct route with the least frustration and shortest learning curve, plug and play, electric.

Finally Dennis said something I can actually agree with!

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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2018, 08:39:41 PM »
Is an LA46 that hard to make work? I've seen many do what they need to. There are a lot skills to master to get a glow engine to fly stunt. Tank set up, fuel, needle setting, venturi size, prop, vibration trouble shooting and so on. Air frame construction. Trimming effects on engine run. And so on. Until you get a handle on this stuff, a PA or Ro-jett won't be of much use.

Yep. My club is full of folks who like to have fun with old toys. We have a lot of fun.

Yeah, it's really tough to set up the best IC Stunt engine in the world.  Get a new PA65 with header and pipe from Randy S.... buy a 6 oz tank from Brodak, Get a 12.25-4.25 three blade Bolly (or the like) bolt that stuff into an SV11 or Impact or one of the clones, ask Randy where to set the pipe, use 10-20 fuel with a little castor in it, and go fly it.
Worst case, you might have to change the needle setting a click or two on the first couple flights, and move the pipe an eith of an inch or so.  One you've got it you will never have to really move anything again unless something really drastic happens!

Don't believe it...try it.

Randy is taking orders for PA65's right now and recently finished a new batch of 75's, one of which resides in my engine cabinet next to the old one!  They're available.

Or if you're a newbie and chicken about slime go electric!  Forget that old crap it's just trouble!

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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2018, 08:44:38 PM »
Well hell I'm convinced,  I'm gonna head up to my local Hobby Town USA tomorrow and pick me up a PA75 and a tuned pipe for my next stunt ship.


Yeah?  You might just try to run up there and buy any kind of CL stunt engine!  It's easier to buy a PA or RO Jett!

 <= <= <=

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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2018, 10:41:31 PM »
I only have a couple of flights on a ST .60bb (Scott Riese's), but I would bet $ that my early 2-Star .60bb ABC is smoother and does a better 4-2-4 than the Tigre. A lot of folks like 4-2-4 or 4-4-4 runs...they do sound cool. But it would not be good for a Judge to prefer that over a pipe run or a whirring electron burner, and I believe that has happened in WC's. I think the 4-2-4 run engines would be great for OTS or Classic, and would recommend them for that...better them than electrics. Not realistic to try to be competitive in PA without a pipe or electrons.  D>K Steve
In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.

In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2018, 12:25:03 AM »
See!  I'm not alone.  Mr. Helmick also knows the truth as do many others who are competitive experts!

Good idea to listen!   y1

Randy Cuberly  D>K







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Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2018, 02:31:04 AM »
Yeah, it's really tough to set up the best IC Stunt engine in the world.  Get a new PA65 with header and pipe from Randy S.... buy a 6 oz tank from Brodak, Get a 12.25-4.25 three blade Bolly (or the like) bolt that stuff into an SV11 or Impact or one of the clones, ask Randy where to set the pipe, use 10-20 fuel with a little castor in it, and go fly it.
Worst case, you might have to change the needle setting a click or two on the first couple flights, and move the pipe an eith of an inch or so.  One you've got it you will never have to really move anything again unless something really drastic happens!

Don't believe it...try it.

Randy is taking orders for PA65's right now and recently finished a new batch of 75's, one of which resides in my engine cabinet next to the old one!  They're available.

Or if you're a newbie and chicken about slime go electric!  Forget that old crap it's just trouble!

Randy Cuberly
So along with adjusting tank height, you are saying the height of the header pipe makes a difference in the engine run too?

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Offline katana

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2018, 03:28:15 AM »
The thread title caught my eye so I looked - did anyone bother to see what else was up for grabs and the prices against them? Everything over priced - the person is a chancer / dreamer - who's gonna pay 3,600 Eur for a average plane?  n~

But what followed amazed me - How quickly you guys fly off the handle / topic into the world of schoolyard 'my dad's bigger than your dad' comments! For gods sake, please all take a 'chill pill'

Does anyone really cares what anyone else thinks is the best or latest and greatest, which as someone alluded to, - won't improve you - if you can't fly decent patterns anyway!

I drive a 10 year old car - it does exactly the same job as a 1 year old car ........ some people manage to get through life using old stuff because it functions sufficiently well for there needs! People grow old & sad looking for Unicorns  HB~> ...................................hint - They aren't real!  ;)

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2018, 04:39:24 AM »
I read the whole topic, and I would like to make my own 5 cents. Forgive me if not the topic.
I'm still a novice. But for two years already I have been flying mainly on the OS MAX FP / LA, I tried to fly to OS 35S, Fox 35 and Brodak40. For the whole year I had donated tigers, which I really wanted to try.
Last weekend I tested the SuperTiger 60 in air.  It was wonderful. But my level is still only a novice. I am from a developing country about which many have not heard. And then this is a great blessing.
At the professional level, they may not be competitive. But for their level they are in demand. Or as Schwarzenegger said in the film terminator. I'm old but not useless.


Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2018, 05:44:31 AM »
Yeah, it's really tough to set up the best IC Stunt engine in the world.  Get a new PA65 with header and pipe from Randy S.... buy a 6 oz tank from Brodak, Get a 12.25-4.25 three blade Bolly (or the like) bolt that stuff into an SV11 or Impact or one of the clones, ask Randy where to set the pipe, use 10-20 fuel with a little castor in it, and go fly it.
Worst case, you might have to change the needle setting a click or two on the first couple flights, and move the pipe an eith of an inch or so.  One you've got it you will never have to really move anything again unless something really drastic happens!

Don't believe it...try it.

Randy is taking orders for PA65's right now and recently finished a new batch of 75's, one of which resides in my engine cabinet next to the old one!  They're available.

Or if you're a newbie and chicken about slime go electric!  Forget that old crap it's just trouble!

Randy Cuberly
Ok so roughly a PA is around $400, roughly how much is a header pipe?

When I see these engines ruining at Brodaks Fly-in they definitely catch my eye and sound good.
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Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2018, 05:51:44 AM »
 I've never seen a ST60 for $100, once in a blue moon they pop up on ebay and they go for $180-230. Once in a blue moon they pop up on here for $150 and once in 2 blue moons you'll see it before its marked sold.  Swap meets I hardly ever see them and the one time I have it was $185, or a parts engine missing half the stuff.
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Offline Don Jenkins

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2018, 05:52:48 AM »
What modifications did he do to it?

Cylinder head, relocate spray bar, timing, venturi.

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2018, 06:24:26 AM »
Did I just read someone mention "Triton. I sold mine years ago for "stupid money" to someone who probably never rode it. Anyway attached is a pic of my 1969 Triumph TR6R "Caff".Took me 3 years to build from a total basket case. She's a beauty!.....not ST60 powered.....lol


Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2018, 10:43:58 AM »
Did I just read someone mention "Triton. I sold mine years ago for "stupid money" to someone who probably never rode it. Anyway attached is a pic of my 1969 Triumph TR6R "Caff".Took me 3 years to build from a total basket case. She's a beauty!.....not ST60 powered.....lol

Hey Skip that's truly beautiful!  Too bad you sold it.  Definitely looks like a "keeper". 

Thanks for sharing!

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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2018, 11:02:47 AM »
So along with adjusting tank height, you are saying the height of the header pipe makes a difference in the engine run too?

Chris

I'm going to assume that your reply was serious and answer it.  Maybe just "Silly Me".

No, the height of the header pipe has no effect on anything except whether it will fit in the fuselage.  The length of the total pipe from basically the center of the cylinder (glow plug) to the pipe baffle (or reverse cone on speed type pipes) is the determining factor in the function of a stunt pipe.

Of course the overall dimensions of the pipe and header (separate part) are determined according to engine volume (size) and RPM range to be used.  Internal volume and length of the pipe as well as the shape are important and must follow definite proportions according to engine type and size as well as intended usage.  Those determinations are too lengthy and complicated to go into here.  Suffice it to say, if you purchase a "stunt" pipe and a header for a stunt engine from Randy Smith or another manufacturer it will be in the ball park for dimensions and all you have to adjust is the length to give the run you want!  PA engines are typically pretty forgiving about this and especially the 65 has a broad "sweet spot" where it will run very well.

I'm not sure where you ever got any idea about the "header pipe" height being a determinant but they do come in different heights, but only to allow installation in different aircraft.  Really the only critical thing about a pipe installation is that they don't leak at any of the connections!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2018, 12:04:34 PM »
Worst case, you might have to change the needle setting a click or two on the first couple flights, and move the pipe an eith of an inch or so.  One you've got it you will never have to really move anything again unless something really drastic happens!


Randy Cuberly
I'm going to assume that your reply was serious and answer it.  Maybe just "Silly Me".

No, the height of the header pipe has no effect on anything except whether it will fit in the fuselage.  The length of the total pipe from basically the center of the cylinder (glow plug) to the pipe baffle (or reverse cone on speed type pipes) is the determining factor in the function of a stunt pipe.

Of course the overall dimensions of the pipe and header (separate part) are determined according to engine volume (size) and RPM range to be used.  Internal volume and length of the pipe as well as the shape are important and must follow definite proportions according to engine type and size as well as intended usage.  Those determinations are too lengthy and complicated to go into here.  Suffice it to say, if you purchase a "stunt" pipe and a header for a stunt engine from Randy Smith or another manufacturer it will be in the ball park for dimensions and all you have to adjust is the length to give the run you want!  PA engines are typically pretty forgiving about this and especially the 65 has a broad "sweet spot" where it will run very well.

I'm not sure where you ever got any idea about the "header pipe" height being a determinant but they do come in different heights, but only to allow installation in different aircraft.  Really the only critical thing about a pipe installation is that they don't leak at any of the connections!

Randy Cuberly
Yes it was a serious question or I wouldn't have asked it. I got it from you mentioning move the "pipe an eith of inch" which sounded a bit strange, but I didn't know you ment length. I've nerve seen a PA in person or the pipe and header. It sounds like a pain to set up just like a regular glow engine.

Chris
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #61 on: January 12, 2018, 12:40:43 PM »
I don't have any pictures of a pipe installation handy but maybe someone else here will post one.  It's really not all that complicated!

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Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #62 on: January 12, 2018, 12:57:09 PM »
I don't have any pictures of a pipe installation handy but maybe someone else here will post one.  It's really not all that complicated!

Randy Cuberly
Well it's not really that important, chances are ill never have to money to buy one.  Assuming a pipe is $100 and the engine is $400. I wouldn't mind getting on Randys list for one but for now I'm stuck with trying what I have which is a ST60. Maybe someday!

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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2018, 04:19:48 PM »
Well it's not really that important, chances are ill never have to money to buy one.  Assuming a pipe is $100 and the engine is $400. I wouldn't mind getting on Randys list for one but for now I'm stuck with trying what I have which is a ST60. Maybe someday!

Chris

You would have to check with Randy Smith for exact prices but I would guess about $575.00 (USD) plus postage for an engine, header and pipe.  Again, don't take that as gospel it's just an educated guess on my part.  I've bought several of them.
It's also possible to find used engines and pipes for somewhat less!

About the ST60...one thing to keep in mind is that they need a very firm front end on the airplane.  Big Jim and Windy Urtnowski developed a fuselage front end called a V-deflector that is very rigid and definitely is what you want for a ST60.   Use the search function here and type "Big Jim Greenaway Pattern Master V deflector fuselage".  That should show you what it is!

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #64 on: January 12, 2018, 04:35:38 PM »
I've bought several of them.

Yes, we knooooow. You seem to mention it in almost every post.
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #65 on: January 12, 2018, 04:38:16 PM »
Yes, we knooooow. You seem to mention it in almost every post.

That's just for you Motorman.  Eat your heart out!

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2018, 05:05:27 PM »
There is a Super Tigre 60 in the classifides right now for $99 with shipping.   I would suggest you people grow up.  Perhaps it would be better to listen to people who have there name on the Walker Cup.  I like hearing what he has to say.
Better yet build a trainer and help a kid to learn how to fly.
Basically who cares.  I build toy airplanes for fun.

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2018, 05:07:06 PM »
I guess I was in the right place at the right time, because I bought a ST .60bb and a ST G.21 .46, both with little or no running time, for $40 each. I sent both off to Tom Lay for his rework, and flipped them for a reasonable profit. Another time, I bought a Big Jim "Series K" (concave head fins) ST .60bb for $80 in an 80 oz Cardinal and flipped it for a profit, after pulling the engine out and giving the airplane away.

Those are about the only transactions I haven't lost money on, of course! Truth is, there are a lot of engines out there that won't ever be used. Keep your eyes open. You might even find some in Pawn Shops and 2nd Hand stores, particularly near military bases. Bought a Fox .29 stunt new or nearly new, for $8 in a pawnshop in Oak Harbor, for instance.  :! Steve
In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.

In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General Mattis.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2018, 05:43:22 PM »
Cylinder head, relocate spray bar, timing, venturi.

Tom also fitted a new ring from Frank Bowman, and said he hardened the cylinder and honed it round prior to fitting the piston & ring.

IMO, a ST G.51 is a much better engine than a ST .60, especially if fitted with a Brian Gardner ABC setup. Could even be good with a pipe, if you can get a header made. It runs relatively smooth, and the ABC setup should run smoother yet. Quite unlike a ST  .60, about the same "power", but at about 1k higher rpm.  D>K  Steve
In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.

In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General Mattis.

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2018, 06:32:15 PM »
You would have to check with Randy Smith for exact prices but I would guess about $575.00 (USD) plus postage for an engine, header and pipe.  Again, don't take that as gospel it's just an educated guess on my part.  I've bought several of them.
It's also possible to find used engines and pipes for somewhat less!

About the ST60...one thing to keep in mind is that they need a very firm front end on the airplane.  Big Jim and Windy Urtnowski developed a fuselage front end called a V-deflector that is very rigid and definitely is what you want for a ST60.   Use the search function here and type "Big Jim Greenaway Pattern Master V deflector fuselage".  That should show you what it is!

Randy Cuberly
I will check that out on the ST60, thanks!  If I didn't buy the ST60s and a bunch off LA46s I could of had a PA. But more is always better right! Maybe you could part with one of your PA's to help out a unfortunate ST60 owner ;D

Chris
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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #70 on: January 12, 2018, 06:37:41 PM »
I will check that out on the ST60, thanks!  If I didn't buy the ST60s and a bunch off LA46s I could of had a PA. But more is always better right! Maybe you could part with one of your PA's to help out a unfortunate ST60 owner ;D

Chris

Well.....Uhhhhhhhhhh   <= <= <=  LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~  Good luck.  If you really want one you'll find one!

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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2018, 01:03:49 PM »
I have to ad my .02c

NOT for just  folk who want to compete and win... but even WE hack/ sport fliers can benefit from some of the old guy wisdom offered in this and many other threads

Back when I came back (retread) like so many others--- Nostalgia was on my mind...Dad's Ring master with Fox 35   or similar of 1950s or 60s... Torp Green heads, Enya 5224...etc

Thus I went down the path of Old Skool and all the requisite learning curve and frustration

Along the way I found the BBTU by Dirty Dan and was mildly intrigued... followed the path as a religion...suffered a lot of derision from my companions on forums 

Many with some deep animus for Dan or Brett....OK that is cool... bu the formula worked out for me...easier start, lower learning curve, formula worked each and every flight day

I started a relationship with Tom Dixon and Randy Smith... decided to trust Randy as I was not seeing a lot of love for the Stalker line... RS had sold me a bunch of ready to run engines that do exactly as he suggests....  I do not mean this to mean Tom Dixon's Stalkers are junk... I just decided to got with RS engines

Now I have mostly discarded (sold) old stuff and focus on the now obsolete but well supported Magnum and OS line of engines and so far do not regret any one I finally found for a price I can live with...

I will probably never buy a RoJet or PA as for my hack flying they would be a grand waste of my diminishing hobby funds.... BUT I truly believe the guys that swear by them as the best of the best.....

Even for hack / sport flying... there is really no compelling reason to be frustrated with the old tech , rings, fussy fuel, fussy tanks, and poor life spans of many of the 1950s~1960s crap

Hell I can find brand new never run OS .35, .40, .46 much cheaper that a used ST, Enya, K&B, Veco, Johnson, Fox... and the Magnum line is very affordable and reliable

On could say my $200 ARF SV-11 deserves a decent RoJet or PA monster on pipe....but I bet my RS Blue printed  $152 Magnum .52 will suit my easy to start and fly needs just fine

I had a ST .60 once upon a time...admittedly I was dumb back then.... happy when a friend bought it off me... stupid engine always back fired.. spun off the prop...bit my finger tips... and ate a LOT of fuel

If you absolutely MUST ply old school for nostalgic reason...very cool

But to compete, train, and have a bullet proof power system that does not require a lot of every flight thinking

I sure would follow the advice here from the winners.....with "been there done that" experience
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Target

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2018, 04:30:03 PM »

Basically who cares.  I build toy airplanes for fun.

^^^ Pure Truth above^^^

Basically, if not for my OFB that is a great engine guy, as a newbie, I would have just stuck to E power because it's pretty darned simple if you understand how it works.
That being said, LiPo batteries make me a little nervous, so Glow seems safer to me.
THAT being said, getting a consistant running engine is paramount to getting a good flight, regardless of WHAT brand of engine is in the plane, RIGHT?
Some of the folks here don't want to spend time tinkering, they would rather spend a bit more money to have what they know is going to work. Nothing wrong with that. Commonality of engines and equipment in various planes makes sense whenever possible. One spare part that fits multiple planes IS a good thing, right?

Some people have less disposable income, and need to, or want to, find some cheaper alternatives to the solution of a good running engine above. They cannot or do not want to trade dollars for time.
Personally, as I age, I feel like more days are behind me than ahead, so trading some dollars for time when possible makes sense.

But it's ALL supposed to be fun, whether derived from OS, AP, RO-Jett, Stalker, Cobra, Thunder Power, or God knows what the next greatest power system will be.

We should remember that we are all "US", not US vs. THEM in this hobby. Try to help each other when you can. If you can't help someone and you tried, it's ok, some folks ask a question and already have a couple answers in mind.

Lets just have fun and get along for 2018. They are toy planes.

BR,
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Chris
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Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #73 on: January 13, 2018, 05:28:32 PM »
I never imagined posting a link to a ridiculously priced engine would have turned into so many arguments and discussions over old and new engines.
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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #74 on: January 13, 2018, 06:20:45 PM »
It is a shame that RO-JETT or PA do not come is SUB 60 sizes anymore or am I wrong? I have no need for a monster sized motor or a Model that requires one. SOmetimes I think that CLPA follows those humongous RC models we all love to ridicule. I sort of miss the days when all you needed was a Stiletto 660 or smaller model to compete. But I will say one thing. I firmly believe that always having to mess with engine runs or compensate for erratic engine runs most certainly hampered my ability to hone my flying skills. Run Away's, Over Heats, and the entire host of other engine issues and flight to flight inconsistency made me more focused on adjusting to the engine run rather than flying.

You don't need a good steady engine run to do lazy 8's a couple of loops or even flying inverted, But try completing even a semi recognizable pattern with an recalcitrant engine  and you will be pulling hairs. It completely blows even trying to get the model trimmed right out of the water. The engine winds up downwind and then goes slag upwind, gets loose in overheads, or just plain runs away screaming like a Kardashian faced with a Implant malfunction, and see how that messes with your Karma. Sure electric can mitigate some of that but there it's not all that cut and paste. There is as much if not more to dial in an electric setup for CLPA as there with IC plus you have to bring your charging system to the field with you, which means sitting in your car charging batteries else spend a ton of money on batteries as quality LiPos are not cheap. Oh and by the way FAA has prohibited LiPo batteries as checked baggage on all flights, you pretty much have to mail them to your destination in advance.

So if someone makes engines that are designed for CLPA using modern materials and technology then just the hours saves from having to mess incessantly with hardware not specifically designed for that purpose is well worth the money, it is if you ever think about perhaps competing semi seriously, or perhaps just getting better at flying your toy airplane. Just for informational purposes, I had my share of the old school Iron engines back in the day FOX, McCoy, Enya, K&B etc. Once i discovered OS, I never looked back, even back then. But as I mentioned I never got into models that needed a 60 or larger engine. Did I mention that it's too bad that RO-Jetts and the like are being made in a Sub-60 size?
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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2018, 06:22:04 PM »
Liner:
I know, right?
Any engine that runs consistantly the way you want without problems and too much fussing seems like a good engine to me, regardless of make.
Getting parts seems like something to consider regardless of brand.
R,
Target
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Chris
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Offline George Truett

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2018, 07:13:34 PM »
Peter, last C/L engine price list I got from Dub Jett listed a 35, 40L, 51, 61, 67 and 76.  That was about a year ago and all are still available as far as I know.  If you PM me an email address I'll forward the price lists.  George

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2018, 07:20:22 PM »
I believe the RO Jett 40 in both side and rear exhaust versions are still made and available.  I have three of them one side exhaust and two rear exhaust (all Bar stock engines and very light).  They are very good running engines and believe they will last for ever if treated well.  Also Randy Smith (yes that guy again) does a magnum 36 that is a beautiful and very good running engine.  A bit heavier than the RO Jett but runs very well and is a bit less expensive.  Get the B&B one!

There are some very good smaller engines available so there should be No Problem if that is your fare.  I also do not like Lipo's.  Not for any particular reason.  I'm just stubborn, and like the smell of castor even if it is only 5%!    LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #78 on: January 14, 2018, 01:12:25 AM »
I have 4 V.60tys 2 were Free and the others I got for 50 ea off eBay. They all run the same. Tigers, in my opinion, run the best set up this way. RS venturi and spray bar in stock location. Sig Champion fule, 13 X 6 Revup prop. This engine is very predictable with plenty of power for a ship up to 65 oz. Let the airplane off at 85 to 9000 RPM for a smooth four stroke with little cycling. If you like the nostalgic sound this is the engine for you but if you need the screaming power of a windup weedeater the buy a VF.46.

The engine that I am using on my next plane of the PA.75 very powerful with similar run characteristics. Call me nostalgic but I love that sound.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #79 on: January 14, 2018, 01:22:34 AM »
FWIW, I picked up a used RO-Jett .76 SIDE EXHAUST from a regular on here and eventually called Dubby Jett and sent it off to him to convert to REAR EXHAUST. That was only $50 plus shipping both directions. From what I've read on here more recently, I might be able to get it converted to a .67 if I wish to buy a new piston/cylinder and head insert. Dubby can usually deliver stunt engines in a pretty timely manner, but I don't know what the hurricane and flood did to him. Worth a call.   y1 Steve
In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.

In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General Mattis.

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #80 on: January 14, 2018, 01:50:19 PM »
  I'm just stubborn, and like the smell of castor even if it is only 5%!    LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

Randy Cuberly
[/quote]

Really?  %^@  5% oil!? I think you mean 5% nitro......... y1

Jerry

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #81 on: January 14, 2018, 04:16:16 PM »
I assumed (yeah, I know!) that Randy meant 5% castor of a total of 20% or more oil. Nobody in Tucson runs 5% nitro at their density altitude.  H^^ Steve
In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.

In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General Mattis.

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #82 on: January 14, 2018, 05:04:04 PM »
I assumed (yeah, I know!) that Randy meant 5% castor of a total of 20% or more oil. Nobody in Tucson runs 5% nitro at their density altitude.  H^^ Steve

Ahhhh, that makes more sense to me! y1

Jerry

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2018, 06:39:28 PM »
I assumed (yeah, I know!) that Randy meant 5% castor of a total of 20% or more oil. Nobody in Tucson runs 5% nitro at their density altitude.  H^^ Steve

Yeah, Thanks Steve!

I guess I made an assumption that no one would think I only use 5% oil!  I typically use 20% total oil in most engines but use a total of 18% sometimes with only 3% castor in some RO Jett engines.  The AAC Ro Jetts tend to run cold if too much oil especially castor is used here in Tucson where the air is typically very dry and hot.
Also of course as Steve mentioned, 15% nitro is pretty much the norm here with up to 20% + in some cases to maintain power and a good run.  Some folks tend to carry two jugs of fuel to the field with like oil content but 15% in one jug and 25% in the other jug and then mix the two to choice in the syringe before filling the tank.  By varying the amounts from the two jugs you can mix any amount between the two.  However...do the math carefully.  The biggest danger is that the higher the nitro content the more fuel it takes to fly the pattern.  It's easy to run short if you're not careful.  How much it's effected depends on the engine venturi size, prop, and RPM range used.  SO...it requires some careful planning and practice to accomplish but can be a very effective tool for altitude and climate/temperature changes!  However don't say I didn't warn you and don't call Dub Jett and say "Hey, Randy Cuberly said your engines only need 18% oil..."  What I'm talking about is special cases here at high altitude.

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2018, 08:29:48 PM »
While We're on the subject of INJUNs . And while all the ' engine blokes ' are HERE . . .

Was a Big Jim ST 51 post on U Tube , at F Meadow - Later unavailable due to copyright / tunes !? ??? ( dunno it had any )

Can someone/ anyone REINSTATE IT , from the historical perspective it is one of the few ' movies of Mr Greenaway , and a engine of his flying stunt ,  >:(

Thanks . H^^

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2018, 08:55:37 PM »
I like the idea for the time share I will put in my life savings mind you my life consists of lots of airplanes so my savings is $13.24 a tooth pick and half a stick of gum

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #86 on: January 18, 2018, 04:51:19 PM »
While We're on the subject of INJUNs . And while all the ' engine blokes ' are HERE . . .

Was a Big Jim ST 51 post on U Tube , at F Meadow - Later unavailable due to copyright / tunes !? ??? ( dunno it had any )

Can someone/ anyone REINSTATE IT , from the historical perspective it is one of the few ' movies of Mr Greenaway , and a engine of his flying stunt ,  >:(

Thanks . H^^

Well, I dunno. I recall seeing that one, but it's not there anymore. Probably, whoever posted it needed space in their account folder or something of that sort? Windy might know, but I have no idear (sic) who posted it originally. If you manage to get it reinstated, please let us know.  H^^ Steve
In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.

In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General Mattis.

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #87 on: January 19, 2018, 10:09:56 PM »
Hi Skip,
I've been reasonably competitive with my old V60 Tigre powered Golden Falcon. it's an old 80's style 60 ship. It's all wrong. But I've flown it a lot and it's really reliable.
My pipe ship needs some maintenance and I'm actually slower than Randy at getting models done but it has a PA 61 on a 65 Aero Pipe and the model has a few little quirks so I'm not flying it right now but it can fly more competitively than the 60 ship. But only if it shows up to the contest.
Build your ships, put in the engine that suits you, practice (or have fun).
You if desire to compete, and can fly in Advanced, you can kick everyone's butt with a 60 ship almost everywhere in the country if you practice with a coach and fly regularly. After 1,000 flights on one or two ships with reasonable shapes sizes found by a flying with a good outside observer/coach, you'll be competitive.
Once you're in Expert, one has to step up a lot, and my 60 ship suffers from slow speed recovery in hard corners and trim issues from having a forward CG.
I'm building a Thundergazer for a PA75 like David Fitzgerald has, but I'll have a hard time beating he, Brett or Paul ever because I won't fly as much as them. Not enough fire for it anymore, too many hobbies, etc.
Have fun with the 60, it gets one to 95% all at once better than any other engine, and easier.
Chris...

Did I just read someone mention "Triton. I sold mine years ago for "stupid money" to someone who probably never rode it. Anyway attached is a pic of my 1969 Triumph TR6R "Caff".Took me 3 years to build from a total basket case. She's a beauty!.....not ST60 powered.....lol

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #88 on: January 20, 2018, 09:27:20 PM »
Hi Skip,
I've been reasonably competitive with my old V60 Tigre powered Golden Falcon. it's an old 80's style 60 ship. It's all wrong. But I've flown it a lot and it's really reliable.
My pipe ship needs some maintenance and I'm actually slower than Randy at getting models done but it has a PA 61 on a 65 Aero Pipe and the model has a few little quirks so I'm not flying it right now but it can fly more competitively than the 60 ship. But only if it shows up to the contest.
Build your ships, put in the engine that suits you, practice (or have fun).
You if desire to compete, and can fly in Advanced, you can kick everyone's butt with a 60 ship almost everywhere in the country if you practice with a coach and fly regularly. After 1,000 flights on one or two ships with reasonable shapes sizes found by a flying with a good outside observer/coach, you'll be competitive.
Once you're in Expert, one has to step up a lot, and my 60 ship suffers from slow speed recovery in hard corners and trim issues from having a forward CG.
I'm building a Thundergazer for a PA75 like David Fitzgerald has, but I'll have a hard time beating he, Brett or Paul ever because I won't fly as much as them. Not enough fire for it anymore, too many hobbies, etc.
Have fun with the 60, it gets one to 95% all at once better than any other engine, and easier.
Chris...

    Hey Chris;
    There may be a Mini-Me Golden Falcon in the future. Sean was asking me about the airplane and I'm sure he has talked to you about it. One of these days, I'll type my version of why the American flag decal is on the right wing tip!  That one one of the wildest things I ever saw!  I always loved the paint scheme on that airplane!
    Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee
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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #89 on: January 21, 2018, 02:22:36 AM »
Cylinder head, relocate spray bar, timing, venturi.

I do nothing but what I already listed. (Box stock)
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