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Author Topic: Tigre 60 really?  (Read 2798 times)

Online #Liner

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Tigre 60 really?
« on: January 09, 2018, 05:22:41 PM »
Chris Fretz (38)
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Offline Doug Moisuk

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 05:47:23 PM »
Randy Smith prepared and I think it's a Randy Smith muffler as well. But I am not sure about the muffler. Very powerful.

Offline Motorman

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 06:40:01 PM »
Not sure on my eur conversion but I think you could get a PA with all the trimmings for less than that directly from RS.
There will be a sunny day and we will fly our airplanes.

Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 07:27:24 PM »
That's about $525..........And the shipping? Must be made out of unobtainium!

Jerry

Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 09:13:46 PM »
Quote
What is so great about this engine for the price? 

The Profit .  ;D

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 09:17:18 PM »
Not sure on my eur conversion but I think you could get a PA with all the trimmings for less than that directly from RS.

     I don't know whether they are available right now or not, but I would certainly prefer to have the PA, particularly for much less money. A RO-Jett 61 is certainly less and it is far superior to the ST60 as well,  as is a 40VF, which you might be able to get for $125 since they are sitting round rusting in drawers around the country for the past 20 years. Even Windy declared the ST60 uncompetitive in 1993, and wanted to start a separate event so they wouldn't have to compete with modern engines.

      Brett
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 10:06:07 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2018, 11:16:59 PM »
I doubt it's worth a third of that even in perfect condition.  I also don't doubt that someone will buy it!

Randy Cuberly
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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 02:47:04 AM »
Let's all combine money to buy it and we can send it to each other say every 2 months?  ;D ;)
Chris Fretz (38)
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 06:08:03 AM »
Let's all combine money to buy it and we can send it to each other say every 2 months?  ;D ;)

The time share tigre!

Offline Vitalis Pilkionis

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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2018, 08:51:38 AM »
My word! I'll never complain about the price of an engine again!

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2018, 08:55:06 AM »
Hummmmmmm I wonder if Randy Smith will build me a OS46VF... and then I can put it on eBay... and then I'll be rich VD~
Chris Fretz (38)
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Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2018, 08:59:06 AM »
Don't go cheap, guys. Let's grab OS instead...

https://www.ebay.es/itm/control-line-engine-OS-46-VF-Randy-Smith-tuned-pipe-carbon-Randy-Smith/232614767396?hash=item3628ebab24:g:4ZIAAOSwXaRaSKCB


$946.00 !  Phtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt!
Jerry
PS: That's the Bronks cheer!

Offline Dietmar Morbitzer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2018, 09:00:24 AM »
     I don't know whether they are available right now or not, but I would certainly prefer to have the PA, particularly for much less money. A RO-Jett 61 is certainly less and it is far superior to the ST60 as well,  as is a 40VF, which you might be able to get for $125 since they are sitting round rusting in drawers around the country for the past 20 years. Even Windy declared the ST60 uncompetitive in 1993, and wanted to start a separate event so they wouldn't have to compete with modern engines.

      Brett
Brett,
please tell me why you hate ST60 engines and their well known stunt run. A lot of pilots around the world
wont burn the circle with a chainsaw sounding ear killing crying piped thing you call engine. You left no chance out
to blame Super Tigre engines whenever a topic is talking about. Was something bad happened in your youth with
ST engines or do you lost to much competitions ? I only want to understand. (This is ironic and not to serious, please)
Dietmar
BTW when they are not competitive since 1993, why did they still win WC?

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2018, 10:04:38 AM »
Brett,
please tell me why you hate ST60 engines and their well known stunt run. A lot of pilots around the world
wont burn the circle with a chainsaw sounding ear killing crying piped thing you call engine. You left no chance out
to blame Super Tigre engines whenever a topic is talking about. Was something bad happened in your youth with
ST engines or do you lost to much competitions ? I only want to understand. (This is ironic and not to serious, please)
Dietmar
BTW when they are not competitive since 1993, why did they still win WC?

     I don't hate them. I say there are much better options in the year 2018, including 4-strokes, several different widely available semi-custom engines like the PA or RO-Jett, feedback electric systems, and even a better version of the ST60 - the Discovery-Retro 60 (which does everything the ST60 was claimed to do, but never actually did - like a ST60 with actual engineers working on it, instead of salesmen).

    BTW, I referred to Windy's comments about how they were obsolete. He spend about 5000 words trying to explain why you needed to have  a separate event for 4-2 break engines and wood props (Model Aviation 1993 NATS report) because they were uncompetitive otherwise. Which was one of the more accurate things he ever said or wrote.

   What I do have a personal animus over regarding the ST60 is not the engine itself, but some of the ST60 promoters/salesman. Not all of them, just a few - but they were (and still are) relentless. They cause the event, many of my friends, and me, many hours of irritation over the topic, as far as I can tell, so they could sell off the last of their ST60s. The second that happened, hey, guess what, we found something better - Saito 4-strokes (for which we have just acquired a franchise). After which it continued with new players, sometimes to the point that something Wynn Paul allegedly did in 1985 was later attributed to, say, Frank McMillan or Ted Fancher or Paul Walker, whoever's character they thought needed assassination at the time.

   They played (play) the victim, time after time, always being "kept down by the man" by the "eiltist" - a game that some of the hanger-on STILL play as recently as a few weeks ago. We had people threatening various things up to and including *shooting a judge* leading briefly to the cancellation of the 1997 team trials which later proceeded with an ARMED GUARD,  the near-destruction of PAMPA over the stupid misinterpretation of a profit statement, a PAMPA president going FAR out of his way to bad-mouth the most revered administrator, in print, over a ridiculous perceived slight, a lawsuit that led to a retired Iowa schoolteacher sued by a millionaire for "wiretapping" for having overhead a conversation that wound up getting tossed out of Federal district court as "vexatious" and the on-going attempts to destroy the event over the BOM. We had a demand to overturn PAMPA election results, apparently over his very slight dismissal of a Saito engine, but claimed to be "racism" or something over the use of the phrase "Mama Mia!".

    I have a question for you, and I genuinely want to know the answer  - why is it that you think saying a particular thing you seem to like, or is in some way your favorite, is not the best, translate to "hate" for you?

    I don't understand it at all, I am not emotionally invested in any engine, I use the engine (or anything else) that seems like it gives me the best chance of winning. I offer my observations to keep people from getting led astray, like thinking their $500+ would be well-spent on an engine that was more-or-less given up on 20 years ago by even the most ardent supporters. I don't hate the ST60 (or  Fox 35, or Saito 56, etc), I just don't think they are a good way to go to be competitive in stunt in the year 2018. 1955 it was a different story, 1985 it was a different story, 1993 it was a different story, and it's a different story now.

    Brett

Offline Dietmar Morbitzer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2018, 10:31:29 AM »
Brett,
I agree the asked price in this offer is a joke and not
a realistic price. At the competitions here in Europe
the price for a ST60 is about 120-150.- Euro.
A new one is avaiable for 250.- Euro. I feel when talking
comes to ST60 you react very emotional in a matter i can't understand.
I understand that you want to beware people from buying or using
unreliable stuff and spend to much money for it, thats fine.
With the ST60 you don't going wrong. You can use 3 blade carbon fibre
propellers and quiet mufflers and have a bulletproof powerfull system.
I start 2013 with F2B and have since 2014 flown 2 EC's and 28 competitions
in Germany and Europe. I remember 3 yes three piped airplanes,
one 4-stroke yes only one, eastern europe competitors using very succesfull DR or Stalker engines.
 But countless ST51-60 ships and also countless electric planes. One of the succesful pilots
with pipes is building now a ST60 ship, so I can't be to wrong, out of my sight.
I can't answer everything you wrote not because i will not, only not
understanding all words correct, please excuse me.

Dietmar

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2018, 11:08:00 AM »
The ST60 I used would not start when inverted.  Always had to turn the plane over and use an electric starter.  All my other engines will start when inverted.  So I quickly got rid of the ST.
"Growing old is easy.
 Staying old is hard"
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Offline Kim Doherty

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2018, 03:05:54 PM »

Dietmar said:

"A new one is available for 250.- Euro. I feel when talking
comes to ST60 you react very emotional in a matter i can't understand."


Dietmar, Brett certainly does not need my support in this but I don't think Brett is emotionally invested in the defence of the ST60. He does however have significant experience that only comes from having done this for a considerable period of time at a consistently high level. In this game that counts for a lot. Give it another 40 years and you will begin to understand.

"I understand that you want to beware people from buying or using
unreliable stuff and spend to much money for it, thats fine."


And that is the point. Compared to what is available TODAY for the same outlay it should not rate a second glance.


"With the ST60 you don't going wrong. You can use 3 blade carbon fibre
propellers and quiet mufflers and have a bulletproof powerfull system."


Well if this were 1985 you might have a very good system. It would not then or ever have been a "Bulletproof" system. It all depends on what the definition of "IS" is. At a large contest you may have an official flight at 8:00 a.m. when it is calm, cool, moist and high air density (you were able to get a practice flight at 7:15 weren't you? -- oh, too bad) So off you go and the ST60 runs very well. (just not quite as fast or breaking just when you wanted it too). You get a good score (well for you it's good but maybe not for someone else who is trying to win) and head out for breakfast then at 10:00 a.m. you go to the practice field and Oh! Oh! the other 89 competitors had the same idea. No practice for you. Your next flight is 2:00 p.m. on another circle. So with no practice flight to get a good setting off you go! But it is no longer calm, the temperature is nearing 38C, there is no moisture from where you are standing to the Atlantic ocean, the air density is 1200M. Where will you set the needle? You can guess (and if you have the experience you will come pretty close (most of the time) (just not all of the time). Will you make a good flight?.....perhaps or perhaps not. And that is not the experience you would have with a well set up tuned pipe and certainly not the experience you would have with a properly set electric system. So why would you shoot yourself in the foot intentionally when there was no need to???

"I start 2013 with F2B and have since 2014 flown 2 EC's and 28 competitions
in Germany and Europe. I remember 3 yes three piped airplanes,
one 4-stroke yes only one, eastern europe competitors using very successful DR or Stalker engines.
 But countless ST51-60 ships and also countless electric planes."


It is always refreshing to see new blood eager to learn and compete at the highest level.

"One of the successful pilots
with pipes is building now a ST60 ship, so I can't be to wrong, out of my sight."


How does one persons actions make you not be wrong? or at least only marginally right? Kornmier's WC win will be the last one with a .60 powered model. Not because you could not get lucky but because people just do not get to the top by betting on long shots.


Kim

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2018, 03:13:21 PM »
Well, in my humble opinion, after owning at least 7 of them and flying them for several years when they were marginally competitive in the 80's and 90's is that they were marginally competitive in a very good airplane that they eventually would shake apart.  Yes they won many National, Local and even World championships with a lot of work and special parts.

Today they are an anachronism that has a place in stunt history but very little else!  There are many engines available today that are better, more reliable and easier to deal with straight out of the box than any Super Tigre 60.

PA's, Ro Jett"s, Stalkers and even a couple of Magnum engines reworked by Randy Smith, are head and shoulders above the Old ST60, in reliability, ease of handling, power and stunt suitability.

All I can say is if you think the ST60 is still a competitive engine you have never flown a good airplane with a PA65 on a pipe!  Oh yeah it will last much longer, run better, and give much more controlled runs in any weather, especially wind!

To date I believe it's the only engine capable of competing with the best electric setups!
With the possible exception of Davids PA 75.

Enough said about a poor old tired engine!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2018, 06:00:20 PM »
CRIKEY : Thats like saying tri 5 Chevs are Obsolete .  :o :o

Most people go out to fly , not to win .

 Hadnt seen a plane, almost , for over twenty years . R C Float meet , asked if it was a Super Tigre ( 60 ) as it sure sounded like one .

Answer Was YES .  ;D

So We can Blamre the Super Tigre 60 for getting me back in the Hobby . Or Sport  .

Sport being Sporting. Not Commercial Employment .  :o :o

One can also regard them as a Art Form , and Period Engineering Excellance . As well as a Historical Artifact .





As well as experianceing a Authentic Period Experiance / Anachronism . Thats Still Competitive .  LL~ Sorry personal dig Brett , the last bit .

 :) no offence .  ;) Good to see ' clearing the woodwork ' , better than veiled insinuation ( control & manipulation )
Everybodys entititled to there point of view .
Problem with egos and ignorance / self intrest in most ' clubs ' of all types .
Where if its ' against the stop watch ' its hard to argue with .
digital mapping in F2B W Champs'd cover that .  S?P VD~

Were some right retarded sh*ts in Yachting in my Fathers Day . The Yacht disallowed in the Sydney Hobart as being ' to weak '
(it was cleaning up in N Z and upset ' the Establishment ' there too ), later won the Trans Pac Twice , and is Still Going Strong .

I dont think the Super Tigre 60s Day is Done yet , and in any case many of its later competitors are derived from It.
So where does that leave us .

WHOOPS .

http://racersreunioncom.jamroomhosting.com/data/media/0/0/Ning_Media/discussions/5/5153_discussions.jpg
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:01:57 PM by Matt Spencer »

Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2018, 06:08:14 PM »


The Best Fox 35 is a Fox 35 ? the Mills .75 is still doing quite well too, but WHAT is the Best Super Tigre 60 ?? a Staker 61 RE ,  :-\.

Healthy Debate is informative & enlivening , Garofali probly wasnt as much of a barsteward as Ferrrarri . LL~ S?P n~ mw~

IS THERE a More succesful or More Renowned engine , in World Champs Competition !  ;D >:D H^^ Than the S T 60 Victory .

Online Skip Chernoff

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2018, 06:34:20 PM »
After reading this thread I'm confused. Last year I finished up a Brodak Strega powered by a Big Jim ST 60. To be honest, the plane was really too heavy to be competitive ,but the engine ran (runs) beautifully.It's easy starting, gives a wonderful 4-2-4 break. My only complaint is how sloppy it is to operate.
I liked the engine so much that I'm finishing up a Shark 45 modified to accept the ST 60. I love the "user friendly" nature of this engine. This year I'll be flying Advanced.....it seemed like a nice combination of plane and engine. What am I missing here? Cheers,PhillySkip
 
PS I do have a new Brodak SV11 ARC that was to have an ST60 as well.....

Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2018, 06:38:15 PM »
These Things are obsolete , and a bit of a pig too , but theyll cost you your eye teeth .





They couldnt give the last of them away ,
 even after theyed fitted windscreens and other rubbish , and had to burn the factory down to get rid of them  .

Online Skip Chernoff

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2018, 06:55:43 PM »
Thanks for sharing that footage of Hawthorne and the D Jag. The D Jag, in my estimation, is one of the most beautiful cars ever built. There is one here in Philly at the Simeon Museum. I drool every time I see it.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2018, 10:10:15 PM »
After reading this thread I'm confused. Last year I finished up a Brodak Strega powered by a Big Jim ST 60. To be honest, the plane was really too heavy to be competitive ,but the engine ran (runs) beautifully.It's easy starting, gives a wonderful 4-2-4 break. My only complaint is how sloppy it is to operate.
I liked the engine so much that I'm finishing up a Shark 45 modified to accept the ST 60. I love the "user friendly" nature of this engine. This year I'll be flying Advanced.....it seemed like a nice combination of plane and engine. What am I missing here? Cheers,PhillySkip
 
PS I do have a new Brodak SV11 ARC that was to have an ST60 as well.....

No one is saying that if you're a sport flier and have a ST60 that you should hang the engine in the closet and not use it.

However if you're really serious about competing now in 2018 and willing to spend 400+dollars on a competitive engine you will be foolish to do it on a ST60. 

Competition at top levels (even in Advanced) has surpassed the abilities of the ST60. 

If you have one and wish to use it, by all means Do So.  If you don't have one and wish to be competitive you will be better served by a more modern choice!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Jared Hays

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2018, 11:17:18 PM »
Yes Tigre 60's are completely obsolete and everyone should send all of them directly to me for proper disposal...    ;D ;D ;D

Online #Liner

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2018, 02:45:12 AM »
Nobody's giving up on them cause I got no hits on a wanted Randy Smith tube muffler for one.
Chris Fretz (38)
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Online Don Jenkins

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2018, 06:31:58 AM »
I recently obtained a serialized ST .60 along with a hand written letter from Tom Lay (3-4-1990) explaining what was done to the engine and how to break it in.  Its been in the box since.  Yes, it will go into a plane some day!

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2018, 07:30:47 AM »
I recently obtained a serialized ST .60 along with a hand written letter from Tom Lay (3-4-1990) explaining what was done to the engine and how to break it in.  Its been in the box since.  Yes, it will go into a plane some day!
What modifications did he do to it?
Chris Fretz (38)
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2018, 07:45:55 AM »
Iíve bought ST60s for 100 bucks. Other folks I know have done the same. Iíve seen these work reliably in stunt. Iíve never seen a used PA or Ro-Jett for less than 300. New ones are 400. Climbing up in Advanced while learning and crashing influences my engine choice. Actually. Surprisingly enough. I flew at least one decent flight in Advanced at the last NATs with a plane/engine combo I bought for 100 dollars. Power was a thundertiger 36. A functional reliable power plant in an overweight plane. One of those 100 dollar tigers will be powering my this summer build. I hope. Knowledgeable friends, very competitive in stunt, have told me again and again, use the Tigre, wait on the PA 61 I bought a while back. When I read discussions like this it often seems to me that some of the most accomplished folks in our hobby underestimate their current proficiency and the time and talent needed to get in hailing distance of what the best do. Those of us on the lower rungs have a different perspective, often better served by way less expensive alternatives to the state of the art.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 08:29:48 AM by Dennis Moritz »

Online Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2018, 08:45:21 AM »
Iíve bought ST60s for 100 bucks. Other folks I know have done the same. Iíve seen these work reliably in stunt. Iíve never seen a used PA or Ro-Jett for less than 300. New ones are 400. Climbing up in Advanced while learning and crashing influences my engine choice. Actually. Surprisingly enough. I flew at least one decent flight in Advanced at the last NATs with a plane/engine combo I bought for 100 dollars. Power was a thundertiger 36. A functional reliable power plant in an overweight plane. One of those 100 dollar tigers will be powering my this summer build. I hope. Knowledgeable friends, very competitive in stunt, have told me again and again, use the Tigre, wait on the PA 61 I bought a while back. When I read discussions like this it often seems to me that some of the most accomplished folks in our hobby underestimate their current proficiency and the time and talent needed to get in hailing distance of what the best do. Those of us on the lower rungs have a different perspective, often better served by way less expensive alternatives to the state of the art.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Many years ago, while we were talking about the available hardware, one of the Italian acrobatics gurus told me: "Bisogna perseguire l'eccellenza..." ( "We must pursue excellence ..." ).
It is useless to keep stock of good material for the best of times.
Now is the time to improve and then time to use the best materials we have available.
If and when we are at a higher level, there will be other quality ardware and perhaps that of today will be obsolete.
I do not believe that in any other sport, an athlete who wants to compete seriously (seriously not at a high level) uses materials from 20 years ago.
Anyone who wants to benefit from the latest generation equipment, even amateurs.
I do not want to say that a beginner must use a PA75, but only that today there are much more reliable systems than a glorious FOX35
The discourse is different if we are not interested in competitions (except for the old timers), in this case we can find satisfying use perhaps not highly reliable engines, but that have a special charm to our eyes.

Massimo

Offline Dietmar Morbitzer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2018, 08:57:23 AM »
No one is saying that if you're a sport flier and have a ST60 that you should hang the engine in the closet and not use it.

However if you're really serious about competing now in 2018 and willing to spend 400+dollars on a competitive engine you will be foolish to do it on a ST60

Randy, you are right, but as the name says top five there is still only enough space for 5, and all the others are behind.
A hobby is still a hobby and a lot of pilots enjoy flying by itself and also don't like the nervsawing sound from a piped engine.
Everybody can choose for himself how competitive he want to be and feel good wile flying. I came from RC pylonracing
and start learning F2B because control line give me the feeling through the handle when the engine works the pattern.
I also enjoy 4-2-4 break and for this satisfaction I accept a disadvantage, which is not realy there i think. Why? Later down.

Competition at top levels (even in Advanced) has surpassed the abilities of the ST60. 
I'm in luck, not in Europe.

If you have one and wish to use it, by all means Do So.  If you don't have one and wish to be competitive you will be better served by a more modern choice!
 Here is my later:
If you want to be a top competitor in 2018 you have to use an electric motor with active rpm control.
So if ST60's and all engines like them are so old fashioned, why do all top level electric  pilots
fly 5.5-6 inch propellers in pitch and increase rpm when nose up and reduce rpm when nose down?
Why do they not run a 3.75 pitch prop with 110000 rpm with constant speed?
 Please this is a hobby and talking about and experimenting
things is an important point, espacially in control line stunt, I hope not to be misunderstood.
Dietmar



Online Skip Chernoff

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2018, 09:10:31 AM »
Randy C.....I actually own 3 of the ST60s . One, I bought at a flea market for $5,cleaned it up, and put it on the test stand. It ran beautifully! Another one was given to me as a gift by Joe Adamusko. He stopped using it when he started flying some electric stuff and when he bought a couple of Ro Jett engines. This engine is in my Shark 45. The last one is the "Big Jim" model that powers my Strega.

You know, I kind of agree with Dennis on this. Until I learn how to fly where my bottoms are where they should be, my corners are square, my loops are round,and my hourglass remotely resembles an hourglass.......will having a more "modern" engine really make a difference? Cheers,PhillySkip

Offline Gerald Schamp

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2018, 10:57:08 AM »
Wow.

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2018, 01:23:31 PM »
Skip and a couple others have a point.  It really doesn't require a $400 engine to progress through the Advanced level, or into the Expert level.  Many modelers have done just that using the lowly OS46LA, or similar low-cost engines.
"Growing old is easy.
 Staying old is hard"
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2018, 02:05:44 PM »
A ST 60 won the world not so long ago. Beat a slew of PAs, Ro-Jetts, electrics and other names. I've seen many a PA and the like not running all that well in competition. Getting a glow engine to assist doing the shapes takes experience and skill. FPs and LAs can be worked with. The knowlege will transfer when flying dedicated stunt engines.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2018, 02:44:14 PM »


Dietmar,
Your ideas are good but your knowledge of piped engines is lacking.

Your idea that piped engines run at constant speed is at best simply not true.  A properly set up piped engine regulates the engine RPM and power to match the conditions.  It's just not as obvious to the ear because the sound does not abruptly break from 2 to 4 stroke.  The power is limited as a result of pressure changes in the pipe and cylinder of the engine!
As to your idea of very high RPM and very low pitch props, that goes back to an era when tuned pipes were in their infancy and very few if any current setups run like that!

A Typical PA65 setup runs a 12.25 to 12.5 three blade prop with a pitch of 4.25 to 4.5, with a launch RPM of 9500 to 9600 RPM and possibly picks up about 200 RPM in the air.  These medium pitch props tend to be more efficient on  acceleration and deceleration than higher pitched props!  On a modern large volume pipe, set with a long setting to regulate properly, the sound is fairly mellow.  Power is in fact far above the ability of even the very best special ST60 setups and regulates much better to avoid wind up in wind or speed up on down legs.  It also regulates much quicker than the simple lean rich condition of a typical 2-4 break where there is often a slight lag in operation between 2-4 cycle!

The difference in a 12 to 15 mph wind has to be experienced to be believed!

However all that said the real improvement in the modern piped engine is the reliability factor.  Because the pipe setting tends to control the engine speed the needle valve setting becomes far less critical.  Small changes in air temperature etc, practically go unnoticed.  One properly adjusted the set up becomes "bullet proof" beyond reasonable maintenance.  Keep the screws tight and keep and keep things reasonably clean and just fly the thing!

That's the real advantage to a good piped engine setup.  If you haven't tried it you will never understand why so many use it!  Personally I believe it to be far superior in that regard to even the best electric setups!

Also a good piped PA or RO Jett engine will outlast any ST60 style engine about 3 to 1!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2018, 02:54:30 PM »
I've seen many a PA and the like not running all that well in competition. Getting a glow engine to assist doing the shapes takes experience and skill. FPs and LAs can be worked with. The knowlege will transfer when flying dedicated stunt engines.

So using stuff that doesn't work very well will make you better when you start using stuff that does work well!  Now that has to be without a doubt the biggest load of BULL Crap ever put to pen!  Dream on Alice!

 LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2018, 03:13:08 PM »
What is the point of Randy's statement. Perhaps someone can explain. It takes skill and experience to make any glow engine work well in a stunt plane. These skills can be gained using FPs, LAs, and the like. Engines that can be had cheap. Until these skills are mastered buying a $400 engine is a waste.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2018, 04:20:11 PM »
What is the point of Randy's statement. Perhaps someone can explain. It takes skill and experience to make any glow engine work well in a stunt plane. These skills can be gained using FPs, LAs, and the like. Engines that can be had cheap. Until these skills are mastered buying a $400 engine is a waste.

The point of "Randy"s Statement" that always seems to elude people like Dennis is simply;  If you wish to limit yourself and make life as difficult as possible and your learning curve as long as possible by all means don't take advantage of the latest technology, instead start where all the old guys like me did with engines that had to be nursed, filed on, fiddled with, etc, etc, etc.  Then after just as many years as it took for us to improve to modern standards you will be able to do the same. 

Phhhtttttttt.  What a load of marlarkey!  That time to learn can be shortened tremendously by taking advantage of modern engines and modern airplanes.  I've seen it happen many times.  I've seen several people advance to expert levels of skill in a two to three years by simply using equipment that was properly designed and prepared while being helped by experts with the knowledge to explain how and why it worked. 

This of course precludes the profile crash to learn to fly straight and level which should take about one week!

Of course IF you are simply a sport flier who wishes to have fun flying round and round with the occasional loop, this does not apply to you.  Have fun!  This is a sport that can accommodate you also.  However if you wish to fly competitive stunt...don't mess around with JUNK from the past that the OLD guys like me had to use because it was what we had!  Believe me, nothing would have pleased most of us more than to have had access to a PA 65 or RO Jett 61 in 1970 and fore go all that "Knowledge" of having to make do with troublesome equipment that only held up progress in improvement!  Choose your own poison and do what you will!  I for one wish I had just started flying now instead of in 1952 with a FOX 29.

Life advances as does technology.  No one wants to return to the times when most babies died before they were three years old and the mean life expectancy was 50 years old. 

Why would you want to turn the technological clock back to 1952 and fly a large Fox 35 instead of a modern engine and airplane!

Unless, of course, you just like having fun playing with old toys!

Get serious while you still can.  When you get old and creaky it's a lot harder!

Randy Cuberly

Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2018, 05:06:17 PM »
Is an LA46 that hard to make work? I've seen many do what they need to. There are a lot skills to master to get a glow engine to fly stunt. Tank set up, fuel, needle setting, venturi size, prop, vibration trouble shooting and so on. Air frame construction. Trimming effects on engine run. And so on. Until you get a handle on this stuff, a PA or Ro-jett won't be of much use.

Yep. My club is full of folks who like to have fun with old toys. We have a lot of fun.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2018, 05:53:40 PM »
On the other hand, if you want the most direct route to fame and fortune in Control Line Stunt-- the most direct route with the least frustration and shortest learning curve, plug and play, electric.

Offline Jared Hays

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2018, 07:42:26 PM »
Well hell I'm convinced,  I'm gonna head up to my local Hobby Town USA tomorrow and pick me up a PA75 and a tuned pipe for my next stunt ship.

Online #Liner

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2018, 07:47:34 PM »
Well hell I'm convinced,  I'm gonna head up to my local Hobby Town USA tomorrow and pick me up a PA75 and a tuned pipe for my next stunt ship.
Get 2!
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Online Dan Berry

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2018, 08:04:06 PM »
Well hell I'm convinced,  I'm gonna head up to my local Hobby Town USA tomorrow and pick me up a PA75 and a tuned pipe for my next stunt ship.

Tell'em to look for it in the 'nitro motor' section of the store.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 08:53:45 PM by Dan Berry »

Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2018, 08:16:19 PM »
Quote
If and when we are at a higher level, there will be other quality ardware and perhaps that of today will be obsolete.
I do not believe that in any other sport, an athlete who wants to compete seriously (seriously not at a high level) uses materials from 20 years ago.

Yes & No . getting ' off subject '  . ifin 81 you can blow off TZ 350s  with a 55 T 100 R Triton , ' home made ' frame  etc . Some ' old un's ' sorted are better than a womble with a new one .

Flying Flying & flying , in multitudinous conditions can get you ' up to the mark ' .I think you learn to fly better flying something that ' takes a bit of work ' at the handle .

A Comp is a differant game however , so the whole approach & phychology thing comes in . Youll need to Jog 20 Km each day . VD~ S?P ;D

I find the G-51 pretty bulletproof & easy to operate . seems better than the Stalker 66 , so far . a 10 x 6 3 bl , or 12 x 5 " 11 5/8 , so it can ' cam up .
The HP 40 R PR was better in the wind .
a FSR 25 magnum " 58 bftt of .018 , in ' the wind ' in a .35 sized thing taught you a lot more about ' energy manadgement ' than a big overpowered barge ever would .

Ve Vill see vot zer sexties do , before long . But the Theory is theyre a Better .46, if in a traditional 46 sized plane , so we're told . H^^

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2018, 08:24:43 PM »
On the other hand, if you want the most direct route to fame and fortune in Control Line Stunt-- the most direct route with the least frustration and shortest learning curve, plug and play, electric.

Finally Dennis said something I can actually agree with!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2018, 08:39:41 PM »
Is an LA46 that hard to make work? I've seen many do what they need to. There are a lot skills to master to get a glow engine to fly stunt. Tank set up, fuel, needle setting, venturi size, prop, vibration trouble shooting and so on. Air frame construction. Trimming effects on engine run. And so on. Until you get a handle on this stuff, a PA or Ro-jett won't be of much use.

Yep. My club is full of folks who like to have fun with old toys. We have a lot of fun.

Yeah, it's really tough to set up the best IC Stunt engine in the world.  Get a new PA65 with header and pipe from Randy S.... buy a 6 oz tank from Brodak, Get a 12.25-4.25 three blade Bolly (or the like) bolt that stuff into an SV11 or Impact or one of the clones, ask Randy where to set the pipe, use 10-20 fuel with a little castor in it, and go fly it.
Worst case, you might have to change the needle setting a click or two on the first couple flights, and move the pipe an eith of an inch or so.  One you've got it you will never have to really move anything again unless something really drastic happens!

Don't believe it...try it.

Randy is taking orders for PA65's right now and recently finished a new batch of 75's, one of which resides in my engine cabinet next to the old one!  They're available.

Or if you're a newbie and chicken about slime go electric!  Forget that old crap it's just trouble!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2018, 08:44:38 PM »
Well hell I'm convinced,  I'm gonna head up to my local Hobby Town USA tomorrow and pick me up a PA75 and a tuned pipe for my next stunt ship.


Yeah?  You might just try to run up there and buy any kind of CL stunt engine!  It's easier to buy a PA or RO Jett!

 <= <= <=

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Tigre 60 really?
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2018, 10:41:31 PM »
I only have a couple of flights on a ST .60bb (Scott Riese's), but I would bet $ that my early 2-Star .60bb ABC is smoother and does a better 4-2-4 than the Tigre. A lot of folks like 4-2-4 or 4-4-4 runs...they do sound cool. But it would not be good for a Judge to prefer that over a pipe run or a whirring electron burner, and I believe that has happened in WC's. I think the 4-2-4 run engines would be great for OTS or Classic, and would recommend them for that...better them than electrics. Not realistic to try to be competitive in PA without a pipe or electrons.  D>K Steve
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