...Thoughts...???

[Bootlegger]

  What are your thoughts if a contestant is blown out of a manouver, but did attempt the manouver, and got 10 points,for the attempt, should pattern points be awarded if the pattern is flown in the proper order???

[Rudy Taube]

HI Gill,

You may want to go over to the SH "Rules" forum. There is a good discusion of your rules question there.

BTW: The question will be moot on Jan 1, 2009, No more pattern points.

Regards, 

[John Miller]

I'm afraid that the rules are pretty clear on this one. The ten points were awarded for an attempt, not a completion. You must make the entrance, manuevers, and the proper exit, before the manuever is considered completed. Pattern points are awarded for completing all the manuevers, in the proper order, within the prescribed time.

Sorry, but I woulod not award pattern points for an attempt. It Sucks, but we've all had it happen to us at one time or another.

[FLOYD CARTER]

Usually, if the WX is really that bad, chances are the rest of the pattern will be way below par.  It has happened to me, and by the time I'm mostly through the pattern, I've already given up and so pattern points don't mean much.

Floyd in OR

[Trostle]

HI Gil. It is in the rules. An attempt at a maneuver only gets one ten points, NO pattern points and NO landing points. It's in the book. Very last sentence.\\ps Mary in fine. Just pissed off.

Ty,

Please explain your response that there are "NO landing points".

Keith

[Jim Thomerson]

In Old Time Stunt, you get no points for an attempted maneuver, but you still get pattern points.

[peabody]

Ty...
Unless you over ran, you were robbed.
If you over run, you will lose pattern points as well as landing points...
If you blew a maneuver prior, you lose pattern points, but cannot lose pattern points more than once.

[Steve Helmick]

Sorry. You was hosed, Ty. Who'd you PO? That paragraph simply points out the minimum points for each maneuver as 10, except the landing, which can get zero (crash). While I think it's pretty clear, maybe out in the wind and heat, it isn't?

My most confusing transgression was doing a RWO with 1.5 laps inverted (feet were in the wrong places, ya know). The judges gave me 10 points but didn't think I should be stripped of PP's. I disagreed. And I was the CD. So, I lost PP's. Anybody agree with me?  Steve

[minnesotamodeler]

This is what's so great about this community--almost like golf, the honor system is "honored", people penalize themselves for errors.  You're to be commended, Steve, for being scrupulously honest in deducting your own points even in the face of judges that thought otherwise.  I don't know which view is technically correct but still admire your honor.

[Steve Helmick]

Stop!  It wasn't a big deal, and it didn't make a difference on how I placed. I still would like to know who was right, and why. As I see it, the entry and exit were right, the maneuver wasn't per the book, pretty plainly. Same for doing 4 loops instead of 3, IMO, or one triangle instead of two. Sometimes we reach the wrong conclusion when it's hot and calm (or cold and windy) and we're tired. Enough said.

This judging gig isn't always simple, and with the new rules next year (no PP's), there will still be some criteria to meet in order to get points for each maneuver, as I recall. We'll have some studying to do over the winter, oh, joy!  Steve

[Jim Oliver]

Breathes there a Judge (or aspiring Judge) who hasn't missed a call??

I missed a call at our last contest (no, it wasn't Ty's flight---I didn't judge that class). I don't think he was talking about our contest, anyway, since he won his class there.

The outcome of the class wasn't affected, but I am humbled by the mistake.........and flyer has not mentioned it to anyone AFAIK, but I learned from it.  I'm sure I will make other mistakes, but not that particular one, again.

Jim

[Rudy Taube]

Hi Steve,

1st, thanks for the clarification on Ty's flight. I agree, Ty was hosed. 

2nd, I too admire your honesty on your "feet in the wrong place" RWO! .... You were honest, AND correct.

My guess is that the 25 PP bonus was put in place as an award to those who start AND complete each and every "correct" maneuver in the proper order. You did get 10 points for starting the maneuver, but you did not complete the correct maneuver. I'm sure you did a great "free style" 1 1/2 RWO, .... but you were ahead of your time ... it will be a few more years until CLPA includes free style maneuvers  Therefore you did not meet all the criteria to get the 25 PP bonus. ...... Good call, and you added to your already large positive karma account too! 

Regards, 

[Trostle]

HI Keith. I am basing this on page CLA-28 of the present AMA regs.   "9. Scoring of Incomplete and Unattempted Maneuvers. If a pilot starts but does not complete a maneuver for any reason, the minimum award is given zero (0) for landing and ten (10) for all others. Unattempted maneuvers will receive no score (0)."

I quoted it in full.  At my last two contests, I blew a maneuver, got ten points for the attempt, but zero for my landing,  and no pattern points.  If this is wrong, then I got robbed. ha ha

Ty,

The reason I asked about your comment about loosing pattern points as well as landing points is that something did not sound right.  That was wrong as others have already pointed out.  Also, it has been pointed out that somebody misinterpreted the rule that you just quoted.  The wording is clear.  If a maneuver (not the landing) is started but not completed, it will be awarded a mimimim of 10 points.  Now this is gets a bit tricky, but the landing will receive its minimum score of 0 (zero) points if it is somehow deemed to be incomplete.  The only way a landing would not be complete is that the eight minute flight time limit was exceeded before the laniding was completed.  (A crash is already described in the rulebook to receive 0 landing points.)

You are right, you got robbed.

Keith

[Trostle]

(clip)

My most confusing transgression was doing a RWO with 1.5 laps inverted (feet were in the wrong places, ya know). The judges gave me 10 points but didn't think I should be stripped of PP's. I disagreed. And I was the CD. So, I lost PP's. Anybody agree with me?  Steve

Steve,

I think your question has already been answered.  Your extra full lap inverted on the RWO is analogous to flying additional maneuvers during any of the consecutive maneuvers for which the penalty is loss of pattern points.

And as has already been mentioned, Pattern Points go away entirely after January 1, after which there is a whole set of standards on how points will be lost for not completing a maneuver as described in the rulebook.

Keith

[Trostle]

Hi Steve,

(clip)

My guess is that the 25 PP bonus was put in place as an award to those who start AND complete each and every "correct" maneuver in the proper order.

(clip)

Regards, 

Rudy,

Pattern Points were added to the Aerobatics rulebook in the late 40's or early 50's.  At least by the 1952 rulebook, Pattern Points have always been part of our event.  I think the Pattern Point bonus was added to the rulebook to indeed give additional credit for completing the pattern when in those days, performing the entire pattern was a significant achievement.  It is my opinion that Pattern Points no longer served that purpose  and in fact, over the years, the rules have been modified from their original intent to require a double penalty for a single error.  This happens when a maneuver error is made for whatever the reason (pilot mistake or weather problems) and pattern points are lost in addition to receiving the minimum 10 points score.  The new rule eliminates this double penalty situation.

Keith

[john e. holliday]

Ty, you were robbed.  Now when does the english class start and where?  DOC Holliday