This is starting to get me down...

[Bill Heher]

I get a known good airplane, mount a good engine, check everything twice. Study the Beginner sequence, I even "Mind fly" the pattern 4-5 time in my room with the handle in my hand, after I redid the safety thong  to get rid of the knot between my last 2 fingers.

Put up 2 trim flights- take it easy and feel it out. Nice stable level flight, good response, good tension. Keep it cool - don't push it, only do wingovers, insides loops and lazy 8s, and some safely high inverted to check the tension and engine run. Nice engine run, no surging or difference between upright and inverted.

3rd flight, the plan is just practice the Takeoff / level flight, wingover, inside and outside loops and landing. I never made it to the landing, 2nd time through the loops I punched it in on the outside loop (inverted entry).

I was trying to open the loop up a bit and not stall the plane on the back side, which was observed by the guys when I was flying the profile Oriental, and was I still pulling ( pushing) too hard on the exit, it was almost a square corner and recovering in a 30-45 degree climb.

 I made the top nice and high, had good tension and felt comfortable, but guess I opened it up about 15 - 20 feet to much, and another one bites the pavement. I might be able to cobble the profile back together with parts from both, but I didn't even bring todays wreckage in from the car yet.

But.. I will not quit, I will not stop, I will not go quietly into the night (except to the ATM) - but I will need a new O.S. 35 crankshaft and muffler. Or maybe a U-key and fly over grass until I get past this mental block with inverted.

[Alan Hahn]

Grass and soft dirt is your friend!

A Ukey is also a good way to go---just gave mine away to a high school group.

[Garf]

Concrete doesn't give much.

[Russell Shaffer]

Go for the grass.  It is very forgiving.  If you do happen to total an airplane at least the engine will just need a toothbrush to get the mud out of the fins.  You can smack the grass pretty doggone hard and still fix the plane.

[Mark Scarborough]

dude, I feel your pain,, been there myself not so very long ago,
get back on the horse and ride again, however, I really think where yoru at a Ukey, or a flight streak might do you better service, less investment in time and in money.
Not to mention a non flapped airplane tends to be a bit less trim sensitive in my opinion

[Ted Fancher]

Bill,

Just curious.  Do you generally crash in outsides?  Why was the airplane "stalling" before and what were the symptoms that made you come to that conclusion?  In comfortable level upright flight is your handle held vertical or do you fly in the relaxed "handshake" position with the handle angled downward?

Ted Fancher

[Bill Heher]

Well the kindness and generosity of Richard Entwhistle in providingme low cost, flyable used airplanes ( 2 this month) has kept the time and emotional investment low. I have had multiple Flite Streak, Ringmasters, Shoestrings , etc. over the years, and have to say that the larger winged / flapped ships fly so much better that I want to keep flying them.

I have made more progress in the past couple weeks by having a good flying plane ( or 2 or 3), and a crew to observe and offer advice, that I almost wish my company would offer me a relocation package to Portland. I sure would miss my wife though - and the alimony payments would deplete the modeling fund in a hurry!

I can't thank the gang at Delta Park enough for their help, encouragement, and good natured ribbing while they watch me try and get to the point where I can fly the Beginner Pattern and bring the plane back to the hotel without having to rebuild / repair it every time. If I can do that and fly in one contest and post a complete flight I will feel like I really accomplished something.  I never dreamed it would be this big of a challenge when I was a teenager banging a Ringmaster around the schoolyard in the 70's.

[Bill Heher]

Bill,

Just curious.  Do you generally crash in outsides?  Why was the airplane "stalling" before and what were the symptoms that made you come to that conclusion?  In comfortable level upright flight is your handle held vertical or do you fly in the relaxed "handshake" position with the handle angled downward?

Ted Fancher

Ted,

Yes my last 3 crashes have all been on either outside loops or inverted. Upright level flight my hand is fairly vertical, but I have a tendancy to rotate the top to the right, while still holding it vertical.  Inverted I tend to fly high, maybe 30 degrees elevation, and have to "pull" it down to getcloser to the ground, when I relax it will climb inverted back to a high level path.
I think part of it is my mental aversion to the ground when inverted, I have been spending a portion of each flight just flying high inverted for 3-4 laps and trying to ease it down to maybe 20' altitude. I know that the crash before todays that totaled the Profile Oriental was just a panic induced reflex of "up" while inverted when the engine coughed.

Today I was calm and the engine was purring, and I had already done 2-3 outside loops in the same quadrant of the circle, the wind was light and steady. The diagnosis of forced "stalling' on the exit was based on obsevation from the guys watching from outside, and seeing the plane jerk and rotate hard with a pretty good bobble when I gave increased down ( or up on the insides) to come out of the backside of the loop.

I think I am overcontrolling and not letting the plane fly on the wing, but my experience with bigger flapped planes is limited, I have had a few, ARF Nobler,etc , - but before getting to hang out in PDX I was learning pretty much on my own and they didn't last that long. I really like the way the 2 recent Orientals flew, and I have a Twister ( with your mods + P-51 flavor) under construction. Well actually it is in storage under the guest bed of my friends house in Phoenix until I get back there in a few weeks. Trying to make progress while living on the road is all part of the challenge I guess.

[John Harold]

Bill, when you get the chance to do some building, maybe you might consider a .15 powered SIG Akromaster to practice with. Inexpensive, fast to build, will fly any aerobatics and it's not the end of the world if you prang it....John

[ray copeland]

Bill, you could also do the beginner pattern outsides from an upright entry like i do!! I don't think there are any penalties for this. I take it up high on the second lap after the insides and go from there. Good luck and keep trying , i am going for my first OTS entry this fall so i may have some rebuilding in the near future!!  Ray

[Ralph Wenzel (d)]

OK, so which OS .35 do you need the crankshaft for ? ? ?

OK, I finaly got down to the Classifieds. Email sent . . .

[Roger Vizioli]

Bill,
When you come over -
We can setup takeoff from one of the mowed circles and you can then move into taller grass that we can cut "to your specs!"
Roger V.

[Matt Colan]

Ouch!!!  I used to have that problem the first time I went inverted.  I tried to hold my hand like it has in level flight, did a roller coaster for half a lap and pancaked it in upside down.  This was on grass thankfully because I was flying an ARF Smoothie and it would've probably ruined the motor if it were on blacktop.  I fixed the plane that night and flew it the next day, and I still have it.

[phil c]

Bill, if you fly too far into the wind(to your left on insides, to your right on outsides) the plane will tend to give a kick after it goes over the top.  It can be pretty unnerving.  It also has nothing to do with how you are flying it.  It's trying to tell you to fly more directly downwind.

[Randy Powell]

At least yours wasn't a control system failure in the air. Man, that was a surprise.

[Bill Heher]

The control system is about all that survived intact, and the tail feathers / fuse from wing trailing edge back.

I dug it out of the bag last night and decided it is repairable. Started rebuilding the nose section and with some aluminum pads to back up the engine bearers it will probably be OK.  The fuse bottom block below the wing popped out in 1 piece, and the top 1/2 seperated at a previous break. I with put a couple 1/4" square longerons inside across the break on the top half and re-inforce with epoxy and cloth strips. The lower block will will get cross grain 1/16" sheet to make a full mating surface for the repaired wing centersection.

The tank compartment will be fine, I added some 1/16th sheet cross grain above the bearers to tie them together, and will fit the original filler block. Lower tank compartment block also survied intact.

I'll tape / pin / glue the fuse together 1st thing tonignt, then start on the wing. Give me something to do while I watch the Magic / Lakers and see if the finals will go past 4 games. I plan to fly it this weekend if I don't run into any major issues. It's gonna gain some weight, especially since I have to go to the back-up motor, an older O.S. Max-H .40. I have to drill new holes in the beams, and the cowl is trashed so I will shove it back as far as it can go.

[Richard Entwhistle 823412]

Bill

If you come to Delta park tomorrow you can look at the the crankshaft I have and see if you want to use it.

Richard

[Bill Heher]

I'll try and sneak away before lunch- I have something scheduled for 1pm so I will have to "Grab and go".

Thanks- I hope to see ya there

[john e. holliday]

Bill,  I think you are trying too hard.  I am afraid you  are going to burn yourself out.  I have lost count of how many guys have done the same thing you are doing now.  You keep pushing yourself until it is not fun anymore.  Maybe you need to sit back, relax and think about what is happening.  Anyway hope you get over your hangups.  Having fun,  DOC Holliday

[Bill Heher]

Fear not- I'm still having fun!  But I have had enough practice at rebuilding crashes to last me a month or so.

I started putting it back together and it is not as bad as it looked at first, just hoping the repairs don't add too much weight, it's a good flying plane.  I am going to take it easy when I get it back on the circle, and relax a bit.

I have one at home that is barely stated and I am going to do a few mods based on what I learned from this one.

[Charlie Pate]

Al Rabe said the tore the rudder off his five times trying to master the outside sq. loop.
Obviously he Did figure it out.
Try and allow a margin for  error. Don,t go for a forty point manueuver, to start.
Learn how to use the wind
Place your manuvers
Learn this with simple manuevers , then go from there.

[Ted Fancher]

Ted,

Yes my last 3 crashes have all been on either outside loops or inverted. Upright level flight my hand is fairly vertical, but I have a tendancy to rotate the top to the right, while still holding it vertical.  Inverted I tend to fly high, maybe 30 degrees elevation, and have to "pull" it down to getcloser to the ground, when I relax it will climb inverted back to a high level path.
I think part of it is my mental aversion to the ground when inverted, I have been spending a portion of each flight just flying high inverted for 3-4 laps and trying to ease it down to maybe 20' altitude. I know that the crash before todays that totaled the Profile Oriental was just a panic induced reflex of "up" while inverted when the engine coughed.

Today I was calm and the engine was purring, and I had already done 2-3 outside loops in the same quadrant of the circle, the wind was light and steady. The diagnosis of forced "stalling' on the exit was based on obsevation from the guys watching from outside, and seeing the plane jerk and rotate hard with a pretty good bobble when I gave increased down ( or up on the insides) to come out of the backside of the loop.

I think I am overcontrolling and not letting the plane fly on the wing, but my experience with bigger flapped planes is limited, I have had a few, ARF Nobler,etc , - but before getting to hang out in PDX I was learning pretty much on my own and they didn't last that long. I really like the way the 2 recent Orientals flew, and I have a Twister ( with your mods + P-51 flavor) under construction. Well actually it is in storage under the guest bed of my friends house in Phoenix until I get back there in a few weeks. Trying to make progress while living on the road is all part of the challenge I guess.

Bill,

Sorry for the delay responding.  I sometimes forget where I've left messages on threads.

I've a couple of suggestions for you.

First, is there an accomplished pilot/trim expert in your group that could fly one of your ships and evaluate its state of trim.  I don't like the sound of an airplane that "wants" to climb when inverted yet "stalls" when trying to do outside loops.  The two are sort of counterintuitive.  Makes me wonder if the ship isn't either nose heavy (requiring a lot of additional control input when coming down the backside of loops) or if there isn't some misalignment between the flaps and elevators that makes the thing want to climb when flying inverted but is unwilling to react aggressively to outside pitch inputs.  An accomplished pilot could tell you a lot in a single flight.

I'd like you to try flying lazy eights repeatedly until you're real comfortable with doing so and can evaluate the control inputs you find necessary to do the insides and outsides.  I suggest doing this evaluation doing "lazy" vice "AMA" style eights since your loops will always be "away from the ground" thus freeing you up to evaluate the airplanes response to your control inputs.  What you should be feeling is consistency between the "effort" necessary to do the insides and the outsides.  If you're having to do something "extraordinary" to make it turn one way as well as it does the other it'll be a good clue to why you're plowing turf in outside stuff.

Finally, have a flying buddy critically monitor your handle position in level upright flight to determine if you're not doing the relaxed neutral thing.  A lot of people won't believe this but a relaxed neutral can make outsides much more difficult and, if to severe, can actually make the geometry of the system such that you can't get all the down that is available from the on-board control system.  This can easily result in the sort of "panicked" down inputs you've alluded to that might result in the misbehavior your flying buddies have called a stall.

Finally, if I get rude again and don't respond right away, send me a private message to remind me.  We're in the middle of a huge house remodel/expansion that pretty much keeps me too busy to spend much time with airplane stuff for the time being.

Ted Fancher

p.s.  Last question.  Do you use a "reversed" bellcrank (pushrod on the "inside" of the crank -- toward the pilot) and, does the flap to elevator pushrod have a secure fairlead on it to prevent buckling (or, better yet, is the pushrod a C.F. rod)

[Scott B. Riese]

SNIP>>>First, is there an accomplished pilot/trim expert in your group that could fly one of your ships and evaluate its state of trim.  I don't like the sound of an airplane that "wants" to climb when inverted yet "stalls" when trying to do outside loops.  The two are sort of counterintuitive.  Makes me wonder if the ship isn't either nose heavy (requiring a lot of additional control input when coming down the backside of loops) or if there isn't some misalignment between the flaps and elevators that makes the thing want to climb when flying inverted but is unwilling to react aggressively to outside pitch inputs.  An accomplished pilot could tell you a lot in a single flight.

YEP...I saw the plane fly after the first rebuild. Leo and I found that there was Elevator incidence, Engine had down thrust, and tank plumbed wrong for pressure. Bill fixed many of them. I should have been out there to lend a hand. Not many people there can trim a plane. I'll be out there Wednesday with a U-KEY. OK??? Let me know.

[Bill Heher]

Hey Scott- how are those little kitties doing?

The rebuild you saw was the profile Oriental, I put that one in again and broke the wing in half, then I bought Richards ARF Oriental- and it was flying pretty good till I smacked the ground again. It is rebuilt and 1 put up 3 flights today, and brought it back in 1 piece, even after some real Horizontal 8s.

I will keep flying and trying- it seems like progress is being made. I included a quick photo montage of before, during and after the rebuild.

[Steve Helmick]

Just started reading this thread, and my thoughts are pretty close to Ted's. A trimmed airplane is one that is easy to fly, seems relatively slow, and keeps the pilot relaxed. The relaxed pilot is one that can think and use his head, not nervous and likely to panic.

A couple weeks ago, Randy Powell and I were at TNA, and talking about body position (and twisting and turning) to do the OH8's...so many of us have sore backs and stiff necks.  I got inspired by watching John Leidle at Regionals. A lot can be learned by watching the pilot vs. watching the airplane, and practising what they do, at home, sans planes.

As a result, I decided that instead of calling that livingroom practise session "Dry Flying", I thought we needed a catchier name for it, and decided on "Pilotes".  Kinda like "pilates", but for pilots. Ok, so ask your wife or dictonary.com what "pilates" are. Some kinda exercises...don't ask me for details. They're kinda girly, I think, like Yoga.  Not at all like what I do, when I go to the gym. Not by a long shot. But I like the name similarity and puns...   Steve

[Bill Heher]

Bill,

Sorry for the delay responding.  I sometimes forget where I've left messages on threads.

I've a couple of suggestions for you.

First, is there an accomplished pilot/trim expert in your group that could fly one of your ships and evaluate its state of trim.  I don't like the sound of an airplane that "wants" to climb when inverted yet "stalls" when trying to do outside loops.  The two are sort of counterintuitive.  Makes me wonder if the ship isn't either nose heavy (requiring a lot of additional control input when coming down the backside of loops) or if there isn't some misalignment between the flaps and elevators that makes the thing want to climb when flying inverted but is unwilling to react aggressively to outside pitch inputs.  An accomplished pilot could tell you a lot in a single flight.

I'd like you to try flying lazy eights repeatedly until you're real comfortable with doing so and can evaluate the control inputs you find necessary to do the insides and outsides.  I suggest doing this evaluation doing "lazy" vice "AMA" style eights since your loops will always be "away from the ground" thus freeing you up to evaluate the airplanes response to your control inputs.  What you should be feeling is consistency between the "effort" necessary to do the insides and the outsides.  If you're having to do something "extraordinary" to make it turn one way as well as it does the other it'll be a good clue to why you're plowing turf in outside stuff.

Finally, have a flying buddy critically monitor your handle position in level upright flight to determine if you're not doing the relaxed neutral thing.  A lot of people won't believe this but a relaxed neutral can make outsides much more difficult and, if to severe, can actually make the geometry of the system such that you can't get all the down that is available from the on-board control system.  This can easily result in the sort of "panicked" down inputs you've alluded to that might result in the misbehavior your flying buddies have called a stall.

Finally, if I get rude again and don't respond right away, send me a private message to remind me.  We're in the middle of a huge house remodel/expansion that pretty much keeps me too busy to spend much time with airplane stuff for the time being.

Ted Fancher

p.s.  Last question.  Do you use a "reversed" bellcrank (pushrod on the "inside" of the crank -- toward the pilot) and, does the flap to elevator pushrod have a secure fairlead on it to prevent buckling (or, better yet, is the pushrod a C.F. rod)

Ted,

Thanks for the reply- and don't worry about being rude- far from it. I have the advantage of living in a hotel room with no " Honey Do's" or household chores until I get home. That is why I never get to fly at home ;}.

I am comfortable doing lazy 8s, but my goal is to get through the beginner pattern and I am trying to do the regulation horizontal 8s and outsides from inverted so I don't have to "un-learn" anything as I progress through the schedule.

Today before flying the rebuilt ARF Oriental, Leo , Richard and iIgave it a going over, there was some down in the elevator with the flaps at neutral, not sure if it was there before repairs. We tweaked most of it out by bending the flap and elevator joiners. It seemed to help- the inside and outside loops of the Horz 8 were closer to the same size, and the amount of control input for the outsides seems less than what I needed before. Seemed to fly pretty well after cobbling it back together in the hotel room.

I'll get someone to put a few flights on it and check the trim, and also to come out to the centerand watch my hand / handle to see if I'm biasing it down / up without intending to, and give me some real time feedback on my flying.
If I can sneak away on Wed I'll meet Scott and the others down there and see what we come up with.

I am starting on the repairs to the profile Oriental, that way I will have 2 similar planes, and can keep going if I prang one, instaed of stuffing it in the bag and waiting another week to be ready to try again.

Thanks again

Bill

[Scott B. Riese]

I'll be there about 10am. I'll find SOMETHING to bring. I'll also bring a trim Chart and Maybe we can have a trim clinic. 

[dave siegler]

I am going to go out on a limb.  Get or borrow a Bislob, they fly slow enough that you can think your way out of trouble.  No it won't do a good looking pattern, but it will teach out the elements.  And it will turn tight enough to keep you out of the grass.    My outside squares and square8's got better after doing them on a slob.   

[Scott B. Riese]

DAVE... My flying improved be flying the Bi-Slob(s). My 60 sized slob is so easy to fly and control. You can antisipate the hand to planes reaction. Input to the plane became easier to understand or comprehend. I've told many people about this and I get ....."OH thats OK I don't like the slob"....Their Loss..

[john e. holliday]

Haven't tried it yet, but, I think the Slob would make a great trainer.  I have too much fun with mine, especially doing the reverse wingover into the wind.  DOC Holliday