beginner pattern

[Jack Mulinix]

Was just curious as to the difference between beginner and intermidiate pattern. Thanks,  Jack

[Dennis Moritz]

The Intermediate is the full pattern. Beginners is a lot simpler. No inverted, no outside square or square, no vertical 8, etc. Different websites publish both patterns. I just checked. The Brodak website shows both patterns. Hit up Brodak, click on stunting.

[Russell Shaffer]

An option if you are beyond the beginner pattern but not up to the full intermediate is to tell the judges in advance about any tricks you don't want to do.  If you want to leave out outside squares, cloverleaf, etc., just talk to the judges before your flight. That is what I did and it worked out for me. 

[Jack Mulinix]

Thanks Russel and Dennis, I could'nt find any info, so there you go. Thanks Jack

[John Castle]

As a beginner/intermediate flier I tend to think that this sport would be better served if the intermediate pattern was indeed midway in difficulty between the beginners and the advanced patterns. It would allow intermediate fliers to gradually learn new skills while still giving us a chance for some success at a contest. You have to admit that there is a huge jump in the skill set needed between the beginners pattern and the complete pattern.

John

[Brian Massey]

It would allow intermediate fliers to gradually learn new skills while still giving us a chance for some success at a contest.
John

If the "intermediate" flyers who win every contest they enter would move up to advanced, it would give real intermediate flyers a better shot.

Brian

[Dennis Moritz]

Get the outside square good enough so you don't crash or get freaked and the rest of the pattern will start to feel doable. Square eights will likely look terrible for a while. Rounding some of the corners off, especially the second inside square, is typical Intermediate stuff. Vertical eights have a tendency to become a vertical nine and splat. Watch out for that. Kind of like swimming for the first time in water over your head. Big traumatic prelude followed by the realization that if you can swim in chest high water YOU'RE ALREADY SWIMMING. Oh yeah, if you've chosen to do Beginner without inverted, then you have to master that well enough for six laps. Inverted, once you stop getting nervous about handle moves switched up is, I believe, inherently a more stable orientation than upright. With inverted the engine torque twists the plane inside wing up. Meaning a little more pull on the cables. Beside, if you don't feel up to trying a maneuver you can do some loops as a place holder. Might loose pattern points. I don't know the current rule specifics for pattern points. Check it out. I understand it's been changed again.  The Intermediate crew is usually a fun loving fairly committed crowd. Beginners haven't fully bitten the bait. They're still dabblers. I've seen some piped ships recently in Inter. Imagine that.

[Dennis Moritz]

O there are sandbaggers in Inter. Especially at the big contest like Brodak and THE NATS. Some take a year or two to pass on. Eventually most do. If you fly local contest the planks add up anyway. What's the diff.

[Tim Wescott]

As a beginner/intermediate flier I tend to think that this sport would be better served if the intermediate pattern was indeed midway in difficulty between the beginners and the advanced patterns. It would allow intermediate fliers to gradually learn new skills while still giving us a chance for some success at a contest. You have to admit that there is a huge jump in the skill set needed between the beginners pattern and the complete pattern.

For as long as I remember the rules have allowed you to take maneuvers out with no penalty as long as you tell the judges before hand what you'll be omitting.  Since I have intended to start flying PA for a lot longer than I've managed to actually do it, I was happily surprised when I got back into modeling and found the beginner's pattern.  In fact, I read somewhere that the beginner's pattern as it stands now came from a group of people in (I think) the midwest who noticed that the beginners all seemed to take out the same maneuvers.

I think you should just take out the maneuvers that you don't feel that you can complete, practice the resulting pattern, and get judged.  Will you win?  Maybe not -- but you may score better overall by cutting out that Really Scary maneuver that leaves you rattled for the rest of the flight (or splats your airplane) than you would by attempting it at a contest.

Remember, when you start winning in a class you're supposed to go up to the next one.

[Bill Little]

Hi Jack,

Looks like you got the question answered.   There IS quite a jump between Beginner and Intermediate, but the original thought was that "Intermediate" would be a "jump off" class where the competitor wouldn't stay long.  A true "transition" to the full pattern and then get on up to Advanced.

Remember, when you start winning in a class you're supposed to go up to the next one

Ahhhhhhhh, Tim, if that were only so......... but there really are no "directions on the bottle" as to how long a person should stay in a class, winning or not.  Guidelines abound, but there is nothing to "make" a pilot move up.  One guy I know was flying "Advanced" (winning, placing) when I flew my first Beginner contest about 20 years ago. (I was real late in actually entering contests)  He still flies Advanced today.  Quote: "I will NEVER move up to Expert".  he's a good guy, just will never move up to Expert! LOL!! 

I guess that is kinda like myself, "I ain't gonna judge". (but I have.............., and I abhor it.)

Big Bear

[Larry Fernandez]

Ahhhhhhhh, Tim, if that were only so......... but there really are no "directions on the bottle" as to how long a person should stay in a class, winning or not.  Guidelines abound, but there is nothing to "make" a pilot move up.  One guy I know was flying "Advanced" (winning, placing) when I flew my first Beginner contest about 20 years ago. (I was real late in actually entering contests)  He still flies Advanced today.  Quote: "I will NEVER move up to Expert".  he's a good guy, just will never move up to Expert! LOL!! 

My last year flying advanced, the competition was pretty thin so I moved up to Expert, only to be harassed by my so called "Flying Buddies" for never having flown a "500 Point Flight" as an Advanced flier. ( How in the hell can you be an Expert fl yer, When you have never cracked the magic 500 mark???) I can tell you without question, the move to Expert made me a much better fl yer. If you are a competitive person at heart, you will find that whether its flying stunt, playing baseball , hockey, horseshoes, bowling, golf and so on, competing against better opponents will indeed make you a better competitor yourself.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team 

[Bill Little]

can tell you without question, the move to Expert made me a much better fl yer. If you are a competitive person at heart, you will find that whether its flying stunt, playing baseball , hockey, horseshoes, bowling, golf and so on, competing against better opponents will indeed make you a better competitor yourself.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team 

By Jove, I think he's got it!

Actually, about 1996 I was on the brink of moving up to Expert just to do it for those reasons, Larry.  I was not "winning" Advanced, but was close a lot.  But then I don't think I won any Intermediate either!   I moved to Advanced when my son moved to Intermediate...... 

Lots of life issues hit in between then and now.  Maybe I can at least make it back to being competitive in Advanced.  If my son catches the bug back, like I think he has, I won't have to worry about flying against him much longer anyway! LOL!!  Then again, the doctors might finally decide they CAN do something for my knees...... and neck.......... if so, who knows?

Big Bear

[PerttiMe]

If you are a competitive person at heart, you will find that whether its flying stunt, playing baseball , hockey, horseshoes, bowling, golf and so on, competing against better opponents will indeed make you a better competitor yourself.

And even if you are not all that competitive, it is not my idea of fun to consistently beat people who are even worse than I am ...

[Jerry Leuty]

     I have judged a lot of stunt over the years in the Dallas - Fort Worth area. I am a fair judge. I am a fairly unskilled stunt pilot as well. I do fly the full AMA pattern and have for several years now. I too flew the Beginner pattern for several years. Then I found myself competing against some who were just entering their first few contests. So I went and taught myself the full pattern. Some of my square maneuvers look terrible. Oh well. Some times I get to go flying several times a week and some times it is a couple of months in between practice rounds. Well you know what that means. Having to warm up all over again. I go to a few out of Dist. 8 contest each year. I have had Advanced pilots who are a little rusty come back and fly Intermediate. Just so they can dust somebody off and take home a piece of wood. I got to thinking on the way home from a contest that was a 1000 miles away; "Why do we let the entrant place themselves in a particular class?" Why not just let them sign up and then award trophies in accordance with the flight score given to them. There are 15 maneuvers worth some 40 points each or a total of 600 points. Make the scoring 0-200 one class, 201-350 a class, 351-500 a class, and then 501 to 600. Skip the beauty points for the flight score as well as the pattern points. These are 'gimme' points anyway. Have a nonflying trophy for the beauty queens and score each entrant in accordance with what they earned according to the judges. One friend of mine increased his score by 30X just by moving up a class. He still flew the same, just scored higher for his higher class. I may static judge you with a 18 or even a 19 if your work is flawless. Then I will static judge a Monocoat/rattle can spray paint plane with a 15 if it is real nicely done. So for your extra hard work I give you 3 or 4 points. You go out and blow a square corner and I give you a 19. The other pilot does a nice corner and he gets a 30. What happened to your extra beauty points? The way we score now should be different than it was 60+ years ago. My daddy does not build my planes for me anymore. If I want to purchase a $1000 plane to compete with or build a $100 plane what difference is that to anybody? Ah, now that feels better.

[Larry Fernandez]

    . Skip the beauty points for the flight score as well as the pattern points. These are 'gimme' points anyway.

Nothing more fun than beatin on the dead horse



  One friend of mine increased his score by 30X just by moving up a class. He still flew the same, just scored higher for his higher class.

You need better judges. You should be scored for your performance, not for the class that you fly in. 


 If I want to purchase a $1000 plane to compete with or build a $100 plane what difference is that to anybody?

It makes no difference to me. I'm still going to get my nineteen points and you will get none with your ARF. And I need all the points I can get.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Steve Helmick]

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2011-2012CLAerobatics.pdf

Beginner pattern is toward the bottom of the pdf, so scroll on down...

What Tim said about talking to the judges about what you can't/won't do...yes, it's a good thing to do, as it will help the judges figure out what maneuver you're doing....in case it isn't terribly obvious! That might improve the scores received, but it shouldn't otherwise have any bearing. The rulebook says you didn't do the whole pattern, so now there's no Pattern Points for you, Mister!

So, yes, there is a penalty....unless maybe the enlightened CD would remember to put this deviation from the rules in the contest PR. Some of us (Dave Gardner and myself, at least) are in favor of allowing Beginner and Intermediate fliers to opt out of maneuvers they have not yet learned, but still giving them PP's. They would have to do all the tricks they said they would, in proper sequence, and correctly, in order to receive PP's. For the last two years, we didn't have PP's, so it was effectively the same thing, but sadly, that's now gone.

Ok, so, moving right along...one thing that rather bothers me, is to see an experienced Combat flier enter Beginner. Chances are he can fly inverted, right? That's the real mark of somebody who should move up to Intermediate. We'd like to see them do all the tricks they can presently do safely, but nobody likes to see a flier splatter their plane. Besides, somebody might get hit with flying debris.  Steve

[john e. holliday]

Speaking from experience I had a fellow I watched flying.  He was doing most of the pattern.  He was doing all the square maneuvers.  Then he wanted me to watch his beginner pattern and tell him what to correct.  I told him he was doing almost all of the regular pattern.  So I put up a flight with him watching.  He couldn't figure out the clover for some reason and the hour glass scared him.  I told him to take it easy with the hour glass.   Then explained the clover.  He proceded to put in a full pattern.  In fact he really made me look bad.  His first contest he went home with a first in Intermediate.   The next year he was flying Advance and placing well.   His job is keeping him from flying now.   As was told me when I first started flying the full pattern,  it is nothing but a series of loops and sme inverted flying. 

I do remember an indiviual that flew intermediate for several years and was always in the top three.  But each year it was always someone new knocking him out of first.  The last I saw him, he was told by the contest director he would fly Advance the next year.   We haven't seen him since.   I myself moved up to Advance so I could get better scores.  Yes I did win Intermediate at several places.  So if in my opinion, if you can fly inside and outside loops,  inverted laps as well as eights, you should be able to do the full pattern.   Some of the maneuvers may not look that great, but at least you are trying them.  Nothing like watching guys flying 500+ patterns in Intermediate.

[Rafael Gonzalez]

I do remember an indiviual that flew intermediate for several years and was always in the top three.  But each year it was always someone new knocking him out of first.  The last I saw him, he was told by the contest director he would fly Advance the next year.   We haven't seen him since.   I myself moved up to Advance so I could get better scores.  Yes I did win Intermediate at several places.  So if in my opinion, if you can fly inside and outside loops,  inverted laps as well as eights, you should be able to do the full pattern.   Some of the maneuvers may not look that great, but at least you are trying them.  Nothing like watching guys flying 500+ patterns in Intermediate.

I've seen this in many other facets of competition. I used to dwell over the same issues of the level and placement of entries. It is called "sand bagging " as we are all aware of. There are several ways of preventing this but it involves tracking the winning entries and scanning the contests entered. Way too much responsibility for the CD.  Q500 in the Northeast moves you up to a higher class after time/wins in the bigginning class. Combat does the same. However, it is at a local level. In PA, it would be an imposible task since folks travel much longer distances.

This is not limited to PA only. I entered my first racketball competition in class C circa 1978. On a local level, I was a class "C". I was blown away within an hour! The guy I went against was of class A+ at "My"  level local gym.
I used to race my '61 Sprite at Scca "H" production along with many others. There would always be an entry that would go around the track once; put the car back on the trailer and would wait for someone to beat his time. If they did, he would take it down again and post a faster time. I saw the car always take the trophy home.

As a Cubmaster, I saw the PineWood cars with a lot of parts purchased, and I saw cars that were built by the father and son. It was not about winning, but satisfaction, accomplishment and bonding.

My point?

All that have posted, have a sense of honor, honesty and pride. It is not about a piece of plastic and wood, but about our own sense of accomplishment. Like the poster that said
"Why would I feel good about beating someone that is way worse than I am?" We can not change those that place the importance in a token rather than in a true achieved goal.

I would like to let everyone know how much I/We appreciate all the help and input everyone provides at this site. In older days, a beginner could only get info if they attended a contest where the "best of the best" would be competing. Now we have it at our fingertips.

Best Regards and Thank You.

Rafael

[Jerry Leuty]

   I just had a brilliant idea. In stead of allowing me or you to pick our class to fly in why not let the plane speak for us? I mean if I were to purchase a completely built, trimmed ready to fly, full competition stunt model from one of the many reputable builders out there and say that plane scores an 18 then I would fly against other planes scoring 16 to 20 appearance points. If I built my own plane and it scored a 12 then it would compete against other planes of the same point range. This is a crazy idea I know and has no real value or merit. My point is this; the score should reflect the actual skill of the pilot. I had a F-16 pilot tell me one time that I could design and build the most ascetically pleasing, the most combat efficient, the easiest to maintain, plane of the century but if he could not fly it then it was worthless. My point exactly. There are some real magazine quality works of art in the contest pits and yet the owner/pilot says; "I am flying Intermediate because my scores do not show I am ready to move up." Then they go out and put up a 427 point official beating most of the Advanced pilots. I have to shake my head and laugh. But then I am not a trophy hound.

[Jim Thomerson]

Back when you had to be careful not to step in the dinosaur poop, Beginners flew the full pattern just like every one else.  I won second in Beginner at my first stunt contest, one of Bill Allen's contests at De Kalb, IL, in 1978, flying the full pattern.

I think the hurdle for beginners is learning to fly inverted with confidence.  Once you can do that, the only thing between you and flying the full pattern is practice and effort.   When judging Intermediate, I generally see square 8's flown better than round 8's.  After all, a square or triangle is just a poorly flown round maneuver. 

[Larry Fernandez]

  I just had a brilliant idea. In stead of allowing me or you to pick our class to fly in why not let the plane speak for us? I mean if I were to purchase a completely built, trimmed ready to fly, full competition stunt model from one of the many reputable builders out there and say that plane scores an 18 then I would fly against other planes scoring 16 to 20 appearance points. If I built my own plane and it scored a 12 then it would compete against other planes of the same point range.

?? What
So let me see if I understand your logic here.

When I was an intermediate flier, I was building eighteen point planes. Forget the fact that I was lucky to score 400 points.
Your saying that I should have been flying against Ted Fancher, Brett Buck and David Fitzgerald??

Now that makes a lot of sense.   NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Larry Fernandez]

    My point is this; the score should reflect the actual skill of the pilot.

WHAT ??
Where in any rule book does it say that the "Score should reflect the actual skill of the pilot??

The score should reflect the skill of the pilot as a flier, designer, builder, trim capabilities, knowledge of power plants and so on.
Its all a part of this hobby. Its all a part of being a "MODELER"
I laugh at the Jack Wagon R/C guys that buy their toy planes at the hobby shop on Saturday afternoon, install the motor and radio on Saturday night , then go flying on Sunday.
These guys are not modelers and they have no real sense of what this hobby is all about.
That's too bad because they are missing out on a great thing.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team 

[Steve Helmick]

We once had a fella (from out of state) show up at a contest with a .46VF/tuned pipe stunter that he'd bought from somebody. I saw him practising the full pattern, but he entered Beginner AND Intermediate. The ED took the bull by the horns and cancelled his entry in Beginner. We haven't seen him since, which maybe is unfortunate. Or not?    Steve

[Jerry Leuty]

   Don't take offense to my knot headed ramblings. If you have the skill to build a 18 point airplane, power it well, trim it to fly on rails, then certainly this does not reflect on anyone's flying ability to be placed in a class with Fancher, Walker, or who ever is hot at the time. The point is to be able to execute the pattern well. That does not happen in my hobby shop but at my flying site. I understand what is meant by being in the 'hobby' and doing our own thing. Most of my planes are scratch built and not entirely from the standard balsa products. I use a lot of foam, foam board both from Hobby Lobby and Home Depot. I simply cut out the parts and sheet them in 1/16" balsa. My planes are BOM. I rarely build from a kit. I have pilots in our club that build their own molds and do balsa shell ships that you will see in our favorite magazines. My point is; 'So what if I have a 19 point appearance plane and I can only fly a 310 point pattern. Add that together and it still comes to 329 which won't place in any contest that I have ever attended.' If you want to progress in your flying skills then it takes lots of fuel burning to 'git er done." I guess at 65 years of age I am just so much waste of air time at a weekend contest. What I enjoy is judging a pilot with the 18 point plane and I am hard with the pencil. They will get what they earn no matter what the plane may score in static judging. All in all; dream it, design it, fabricate it, paint it, fly the wings off of it in front of me. And if you fly the pattern well you will come up scoring well.

[Rafael Gonzalez]

  Don't take offense to my knot headed ramblings. If you have the skill to build a 18 point airplane, power it well, trim it to fly on rails, then certainly this does not reflect on anyone's flying ability to be placed in a class with Fancher, Walker, or who ever is hot at the time. The point is to be able to execute the pattern well. That does not happen in my hobby shop but at my flying site. I understand what is meant by being in the 'hobby' and doing our own thing. Most of my planes are scratch built and not entirely from the standard balsa products. I use a lot of foam, foam board both from Hobby Lobby and Home Depot. I simply cut out the parts and sheet them in 1/16" balsa. My planes are BOM. I rarely build from a kit. I have pilots in our club that build their own molds and do balsa shell ships that you will see in our favorite magazines. My point is; 'So what if I have a 19 point appearance plane and I can only fly a 310 point pattern. Add that together and it still comes to 329 which won't place in any contest that I have ever attended.' If you want to progress in your flying skills then it takes lots of fuel burning to 'git er done." I guess at 65 years of age I am just so much waste of air time at a weekend contest. What I enjoy is judging a pilot with the 18 point plane and I am hard with the pencil. They will get what they earn no matter what the plane may score in static judging. All in all; dream it, design it, fabricate it, paint it, fly the wings off of it in front of me. And if you fly the pattern well you will come up scoring well.

Absolutely!

From the book:

2. Skill Class Precision Aerobatics Classes. This event will be divided into four (4) classes. Distinction between classes should be based roughly on a contestant's scoring in a previous season (except Beginner). They shall be (in order of increasing skill proficiency:
2.1. Beginner—Abbreviated pattern (The following classes are for pilots who can execute the entire CL Precision Aerobatics pattern as described in the Flight Maneuver section of the CL Precision Aerobatics event.)
2.2. Intermediate—Average score is 300 to 399
2.3. Advanced—Average score is 400 to 499
2.4. Expert—Average score is 500 and up
Skill Class Challenges. It is the responsibility of the Contest Director to settle any disputes over the placing of a competitor in a particular skill class. The CD has the authority to change the skill class of a competitor to higher or lower classes if, in his/her opinion, that competitor is placed in the wrong class; however, the CD should use extreme care in doing so. This is to prevent a competitor from picking a skill class lower or higher than his/her ability just to win a cheap trophy.‖ Protests by a competitor over a change in his/her skill class should be made to the Contest Director and only the CD shall have final ruling on the skill class placement.

Procedures are in place to ensure that everyone competes fairly. However, when reports are sent to AMA on contest results, very few CDs use them at the next event. So, only the honor system is followed.

[john e. holliday]

I remember the days when if you could manage a score in the 350+ range you had a chance of placing.  In local meets now I see scores in the high 400.  This is all Intermediate.   At the NATS when I was competing there, the top three were in the 500's.  Have not flown at the NATS in several years now.  But, if we don't have sandbaggers some of the Beg-Int trophies would not have a home in some areas.  Leave it to the individual when he/she wants to be shamed into moving up.

[Jerry Leuty]

The honor system. Boy I like that. I remember going fishing back in the late 60s and the bait shop closed down at night. The minnows were still available with a can placed besides the tank for the honor system payment plan. Wow! Try that today. My desire is that we would all operate on the honor system. That is why I really do believe that the placement for trophy awards should be within the scoring range that the entrant receives. Then the BOM, pattern points, or whatever really does not play into the awards factor. The entrant is awarded on the over all score they receive and not by winning with 427 points and the second place pilot is 378 in Intermediate. I seriously doubt that we mature stunt pilots could ever agree on changing anything from the CLPA. The CLPA was set up nearly 60 years ago now. I would hate to use the word 'sacred' but to change a dot or tittle usually starts the CLPA wars all over again. Thanks for letting me air some thoughts. Meanwhile it is off to surgery and hopefully be back in the Intermediate flying circles soon................God Bless

[john e. holliday]

Jerry, I hope it is surgery on a plane and not on you.  But, if it is on you,  take care and does this mean VSC is out this year?