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[Rusty]

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[LARRY RICE]

yes

[Dennis Adamisin]

yes

Larry             


Rusty:
Did you get the Brodak kits (each list at $79.99) or the Midwest Magician and Sterling Yak 9?  Either way it looks like your friend did right by you...

http://www.brodak.com/shop_productdetail.php?ProductID=8108

http://www.brodak.com/shop_productdetail.php?ProductID=8110

[LARRY RICE]

I SEE THIS AS A SUBJECTIVE QUESTION.  If you plan to build and fly them then the Brodak kits would be better.  If you are a collector then the price was okay but there is always a cheaper or better one out there somewhere.  If you want to resell them for a profit then you will need a collector to buy them.

The basic answer is:
Can you afford them and are you happy with them?
and only you can answer those questions.

Larry

[Russell Shaffer]

Trace the parts so you can build another.  Also good for replacement pieces. 

[Jim Kraft]

You will love both planes. I won a Midwest Magician kit a few years ago in a raffle, and sold it for $35.00. Been kicking myself ever since. But it did go to a good home so that helps. I have scratch built 4 of them off of the Midwest plans.

[Dennis Moritz]

The Sterling Yak is tough because of the weighty wood and thick leading edge. I agree there. The Magician wing, however, is not any stronger than the Brodak. Flapping or not flagging a Magician is one of those partisan debates that has advocates on both sides. In my experience the wood in the Brodak kits tend to be lighter than the die punched old stuff. The new Magicians and new Yaks are laser cut. Definitely a plus. The Bro Magician is a slightly smaller plane. The price on the Yak 9 was very good. The price on the Magician was about right.

[Bill Little]

I think the fact that the Brodak kit is the original Jim Silhavy Magician (smaller and he did not use flaps) instead of a "remake" of the Midwest kit, which was NOT Jim's "original" model, might cause some confusion.  I'm not even real sure that Jim did the re-design for Midwest.

I agree with Dennis on the Yak 9 kit.  It's awful hard to find the Sterling one in the shrink wrap for $40. (don't have a clue for the going rate on the Midwest magician, but $75 doesn't sound "bad")

Big Bear

[Gene O'Keefe]

On the two Midwest magicians I've built, I made the flaps movable. I set them up to have about 20 degrees deflection with up to about 40 on elevators. I like the way it turns better with movable flaps. JMHO.

[Bill Little]

I had been waiting to get an original Magician.  I think models with flaps fly better and the Magician is one of the best I have ever flown, bar none.    I could have bought the Brodak, but passed on it hoping someday to get the original. 

(snip)Sorry, not trying to offend anyone.

Rusty

HI Rusty,

I think you missed the important part of my post.  The Brodak kit IS the "Original Magician".  It is the actual "Magician" Jim Silhavy designed.  Jim did not design the Magician with flaps.

As Ty mentioned, the company (Technical Models) that bought the rights from designer Jim Silhavy to kit the Magician made changes to the design (slightly bigger, added flaps) and then Midwest bought out that company.

So the Midwest kit is actually the one that was "Different" and it was NOT the original model design. 

All well and good, just the "Original Magician" did not have flaps and was a touch smaller than the later, modified, Midwest kit.  Brodak actually has reproduced the "Original Magician".

Big Bear

[builditright]

HI Rusty,

I think you missed the important part of my post.  The Brodak kit IS the "Original Magician".  It is the actual "Magician" Jim Silhavy designed.  Jim did not design the Magician with flaps.

As Ty mentioned, the company (Technical Models) that bought the rights from designer Jim Silhavy to kit the Magician made changes to the design (slightly bigger, added flaps) and then Midwest bought out that company.

So the Midwest kit is actually the one that was "Different" and it was NOT the original model design.  

All well and good, just the "Original Magician" did not have flaps and was a touch smaller than the later, modified, Midwest kit.  Brodak actually has reproduced the "Original Magician".

Big Bear

It was actually TMP that changed the design. I know this because when I first aquired Golden State Models kit line, I contacted Jim Silhavy and it was at that time he told me about the history and of the "Original Magician and he then asked me, so..  which version was I going to kit.

That was when I introduced the "Original" Magician kit.
Jim also assisted me in getting in touch with Bill Ayers and his partner's family (The Greers family) for
permissions.

Bill Ayers actually still had TMP's prototype after they changed the design and sent me the attached photo's below.
 


Also attached are the only two photos Jim had of his Original Magician when he first built it.
He could not locate photos for me of after he went back to the model and added in the half ribs.

[Bill Little]

HI Walter,

It was actually TMP that changed the design.

Which is exactly what Ty and I both said.

Still waiting on your PM reply, ignoring me?

Bill

[builditright]

HI Walter,

Which is exactly what Ty and I both said.

I know that is exactly what you both said; but since I felt I had more to contribute, I just thought I would confirm with a bit more info. Sorry...  I didn"t mean to step on your toes, I mean post.

Still waiting on your PM reply, ignoring me?
no I am not ignoring you, I simply felt there was and is no need to respond and get into a pissin match.

Bill

[Bill Little]

Walter,

I know that is exactly what you both said; but since I felt I had more to contribute, I just thought I would confirm with a bit more info. Sorry...  I didn"t mean to step on your toes, I mean post.

A mere reference to wither of us as having said it instead of what appeared to be a "new source" of information is usually good etiquette.  I try every time to do that, so don't.  No problem or otherwise I would not have put the "laughing" emoticons in.

o I am not ignoring you, I simply felt there was and is no need to respond and get into a pissin match.

I have no desire to get into a pissing match.  You actually fired what would be considered "the first shot".  You quoted something I did not say, nor imply.  No where did I state it wasn't a "Correct" anything so I did not understand the purpose of your PM.  I was looking for an explanation form you, that's all.  

If you are only looking for positive reinforcement on "the possibility of future kits", then you are being unrealistic.  I did not even mention, anywhere, in any way, that you should NOT go ahead with the kit.  I simply stated my opinion of where it might stand for the competition flier.  And with the qualifications I used, it is a valid opinion.  

You are reading far too much into things, or wither you are getting way too paranoid.

The rest of the PM was valid and considering the subject you mentioned (a model I have a lot of information from the designer), I could actually lend insight that no one else has.  That was simply meant for your benefit if you go ahead with the "other" project.

Having never "bad mouthed" you or your efforts, and actually bought a few minor things from you,  as a friend and a customer, I felt somewhat offended,and rightly so.

Bill

[Jim Kraft]

Most of us never new about the "original" Magician until a few years ago. When I started flying C/L again in the 60's, I saw the adds for the Midwest Magician, and I thought it was a fabulous looking plane. However, my local hobby shop guy never got one in for some reason, so I just continued to drool over the magazine adds. Not to long after, I started flying R/C, and kind of forgot about the Magician. Soo! When I came back to C/L about 18 years ago, I ran in to the Magician again. I had to have one now, so I ordered the plans from Stuka Stunt, and built my first one with a Fox 35. I have been hooked on them ever since. I have built 4, and still have number 3 and 4, which are both powered by McCoy 40's. Number 1 went kaboom in Topeka,s contest in very turbulant wind. Number 2 went kaboom in high wind with to rich a setting in a wingover.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the Midwest Magician, is the Magician, to most of us who were around when it came out.

[john e. holliday]

I too had one of the Midwest Magicians, courtesy of Charley's Hobby Shop in KCK.   Added the half ribs per one of our local experts as well as replaced the stab with thicker material.   No flaps and it flew great.  I did not know about the Original Magician until I seen it in builtrightflyright site.  That is when I talked Walter into trading a kit for a stunt plane kit I had.  That is such a beautiful kit that itis still in the box.   Mean time Bob Brookins had a Brodak several years later that I got off of him for a good price.  It got built as close to box stock as I could get it.  Even bought Brodak covering for it which has some positives and some negatives.  Of course it has to be powered with a Brodak .25.  Received the best scores I have ever gotten in Adv with it.  But, it has gotten dinged a few times and just patched back together, so the grand kids learned to fly it.  Still flies great, but doesn't look great.  After VSC and the other project may get started o Walters kit so he will still talk to me.   

[Dennis Moritz]

I'm building a Magician from a Walter rib kit. I took the rib spacing from a Midwest plan, the wing measures just shy of 48". Guess this will be a Midwest version, given the wing length. I am making the flaps moveable. Powering the plane with an FP40, which will be tuned in the usual Philly Flyer way. I'm also increasing the stab to cg moment by a couple of inches. My thought is that, if the Magician turn and corner is not improved by use of the flaps, the flaps are overpowering the elevator, slowing the turn. Pitch movement of flaps throwing the plane opposite to the direction of turn while, at the same time, increasing lift in the desirable direction. A fellow earlier in this thread set the ratio of flap movement to elevator movement at 50%. This would serve a similar function seems to me. So, I'll see what I've got in a few weeks. Ken Cook, a club member, loves his Brodak Magician, the original configuration, powered by a .25. No moveable flaps. It's one of his favorite planes. Guess we're hitting one of those CL phenomena. A design that out performs specs. Like Flite Streaks and (Giseke) Noblers, some designs just work right. They are in balance. I may be upsetting this inherent design balance, by going to moveable flaps and a heavier more powerful engine. The rib design of the Magician, for one thing, is on the thin side, thinner than a Twister, for instance. I built a sort of Fancherized Twister a few years ago. Powered it by an FP40. Very nice match. When trimmed out (finally) it did nice rounds and corners. Even tho it hit the scales at a porky 46 ounces. The Magician should be lighter. Much better wood. However...

[PerttiMe]

Better not talk about "original" Magician, I think.

Seems more clear to call them "Midwest" Magician and "Silhavy" or "Brodak"  Magician. That should not cause any confusion.

How many different kinds of Nobler are there, by the way? As many as there are builders?

[Dennis Moritz]

Yes. Yes. I love this element of CL. Personalize a given design, mess with this and that, moments, dimensions of wing and stab, shape of fues and so forth, it'll still probably fly alright, maybe even great, when you clip on the lines and turn round and round. Always lots of latitude in a CL design.

[john e. holliday]

I have at least 5 sets of Nobler plans, 6 if you count the Top Flite Gieske Nobler.