Thinning butyrate dope

[Gary Dowler]

I was informed that you can use quality laquer thinner to thin dope for painting. Anyone tried this?

Gary

[Dave Hull]

Gary,
Try doing a search for "Lacquer thinner."  There are a number of discussions of this exact topic. You will need to judge for yourself based on the type of dope, the type of thinner, and how critical the painter was concerning the characteristics....and how critical you are going to be about the handling/finish qualities. There may be a bit of discussion about how "hot" different types are. And so on.

Many of the posts are from guys who are reporting exactly what they did; not just conjecture about what they think would work.

Dave

[Bill Morell]

I use the same stuff Larry Fernandez uses. His finishes are pretty much flawless. We both use "Klean Strip" brand lacquer thinner available at Home Depot. You have to look on the back to make sure it says "Max VOC". If not you are wasting your time. At $18 a gallon it is a good bargain. I cannot tell any difference from the thinner at Aircraft Spruce. Only difference is in my wallet.

[Jim Kraft]

I have used Dupont 3608s thinner for years in both butyrate, and nitrate dope with good success, but it is getting more and more expensive. Those I have heard from that are using the Klean Strip are having great success with it, and it is less expensive. Those that say it works I trust. Some of the best finishers around. Last time I looked it was also available at Walmart. The other option that I have no experience with is Dupli Color lacquer thinner from auto parts paint stores. I have heard it works, but that is all I know about it.

[kenneth cook]

                       One thing to caution, Dupli -Color offers lacquer thinners in two identical qt. size  cans. One stating on the front 100% acetone, the other says virgin thinner. In the gallon sizes the top of the can says Premium  Cleaner series in which they offer different evaporation rates. The auto stores near me don't carry anything but the acetone variety which doesn't even clean the brush.

[Larry Fernandez]

I use the same stuff Larry Fernandez uses. His finishes are pretty much flawless. We both use "Klean Strip" brand lacquer thinner available at Home Depot. You have to look on the back to make sure it says "Max VOC". If not you are wasting your time. At $18 a gallon it is a good bargain. I cannot tell any difference from the thinner at Aircraft Spruce. Only difference is in my wallet.

As Mr. Morell stated, the Klein Strip works fine with all the different dopes I have used. BUT, make sure you use the high VOC or high solvency thinner. The low VOC (the crap that California wants us to use),turns to snot when mixed with dope.
There is one thing I need to point out. Klean Strip thinner flashes off faster than most thinners, so if you are shooting when the humidity is high, you can expect some blushing. So think about keeping a can of retarder handy. On the initial coats before paint this is not a problem

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Dave Harmon]

As Mr. Morell stated, the Klein Strip works fine with all the different dopes I have used. BUT, make sure you use the high VOC or high solvency thinner. The low VOC (the crap that California wants us to use),turns to snot when mixed with dope.
There is one thing I need to point out. Klean Strip thinner flashes off faster than most thinners, so if you are shooting when the humidity is high, you can expect some blushing. So think about keeping a can of retarder handy. On the initial coats before paint this is not a problem

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Larry.... assume this thinner works ok with Randolph nitrate as well as butyrate clear and colors....right???
Also....I must be more blind than usual....I don't see in the pix where it says 'high VOC'.....where is it?

Thanks...

[Larry Fernandez]

Larry.... assume this thinner works ok with Randolph nitrate as well as butyrate clear and colors....right???
Also....I must be more blind than usual....I don't see in the pix where it says 'high VOC'.....where is it?

Thanks...

Hi Dave, if you look at the second picture I posted, at the top you will see that it reads "High-Solvency". this is the same as high VOC.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Dan McEntee]

  You can buy tuis stuff in quarts also to give it a try. The cans I have been buying are yellow but seem to mix with Randolph's butyrate clear with no problems for me., I'll have to check the label tonight.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Dave Harmon]

I just thinned some Sig dope today using Sig thinner, it worked great. Admittedly I don't use much dope anymore but, I'm just wondering, how much money are you saving with lacquer thinner on a full size plane?

Considering that Butyrate and nitrate thinner at Wick's is $42 gal and Kleenstrip at Walmart is $18.....it would appear that there is a considerable savings on a full size aircraft.....same for a model.

[Fredvon4]

Wife drives up to Dallas Texas to visit our daughter several times a year... Fort Worth has a airplane supplies outlet near a airport that carries the Full Randolph line... I pre ordered a few gallons of dope and thinners,,,,gallon of any product was basically $48 and wife picked it all up...enough for the rest of my hobby career

I buy $8 a gallon thinners from Lowe's and only use for brush and gun cleaning...I am a very firm believer in using the Proper thinner for a dope finish

Yes a few folks get lucky and can adapt the DuPont or Home depot stuff to work...but when it does not work...well not you have days and days of stripping and sanding...... having done that el-cheapo drill more than once  I gladly pay the $48 for a pure gallon of the CORRECT thinner

[Dave Harmon]

Wife drives up to Dallas Texas to visit our daughter several times a year... Fort Worth has a airplane supplies outlet near a airport that carries the Full Randolph line... I pre ordered a few gallons of dope and thinners,,,,gallon of any product was basically $48 and wife picked it all up...enough for the rest of my hobby career

I buy $8 a gallon thinners from Lowe's and only use for brush and gun cleaning...I am a very firm believer in using the Proper thinner for a dope finish

Yes a few folks get lucky and can adapt the DuPont or Home depot stuff to work...but when it does not work...well not you have days and days of stripping and sanding...... having done that el-cheapo drill more than once  I gladly pay the $48 for a pure gallon of the CORRECT thinner

Show me where at Lowes I can get a gallon of thinner for $8.....you are not even halfway there for a gallon of the stuff.
Then you say that...."Yes a few folks get lucky and can adapt the DuPont or Home depot stuff to work"
What are these "folks" doing/"adapt" to the thinner to make it work??
Do they make some change in the contents of the thinner to make it compatible with dope???

Your comments still don't make any sense.

[Bill Morell]

Show me where at Lowes I can get a gallon of thinner for $8.....you are not even halfway there for a gallon of the stuff.
Then you say that...."Yes a few folks get lucky and can adapt the DuPont or Home depot stuff to work"
What are these "folks" doing/"adapt" to the thinner to make it work??
Do they make some change in the contents of the thinner to make it compatible with dope???

Your comments still don't make any sense.

The only thing we are doing is making sure it is "Max VOC" and then (drum roll please)  opening the can.

[Mike Haverly]

Luck doesn't have much to do with it.  Read what Larry said, blushing is about the only thing that most often goes "wrong".  Retarder fixes that, so does spraying straight thinner over the affected area, carefully.  It takes practice more than luck.

[Dave Harmon]

Luck doesn't have much to do with it.  Read what Larry said, blushing is about the only thing that most often goes "wrong".  Retarder fixes that, so does spraying straight thinner over the affected area, carefully.  It takes practice more than luck.

Indeed!!

[Bill Morell]

When it comes to mixing Klean Strip with colored dope I have not had any problems. Awhile back I bought several different colors of Sig and some Certified. The jars of Sig from LHS were over half way dried out. I filled them back up to the top with this thinner. Not only did it restore the colors I was able to thin it enough to fill a quart can with each color. Worked perfectly. I got the jars for .50 to .75 cents each. Did the same with the colors from Certified but on a larger scale since they were already in quart cans.  Cheap way to have enough colors to keep me happy. Again, this was straight from the can. Nothing else was done.

[Fredvon4]

Dave admittedly I have not bought a Gallon of Lacquers thinner from Lowe's in 5 years ---so I accept that price may be a lot more...BUT I do have a gallon can here right now I clean guns with and a $7.98 label on it

I will argue--- that NO mater the $7 or $15 ( I looked on line) for Lowe's thinner the economy is NOT worth (to me) the oft reported disasters

And I did acknowledge there are many many folks that get away with using Dupont, or Napa, or Home depot, or Lowe's thinners with what ever (sig, Brodak, Randolf) dopes they have

There are quite a few pro finishers right here on Stunt hanger and other web forums who will insist YOU stick with same brand product AND ratios, and Procedures, and Weather environment....

This is MUCH as science as an art....so OK admittedly I am a convert

When I started sticker shock got my frugal butt to try lower cost alternatives...and my bet FAILED ---a lot of long and deep grousing about the need to strip and start over on a lot of hours prepping model

Got the good stuff at $48 per gallon....Butyrate dope, Nitrate dope, Thinner...

Followed guided for weather, thinning, brushing and spraying.... nirvana with no blushing, no log wait for flash off, easy to sand and keep going

SO IMO using the correct products in combination is a WIN win...trying to save $30 bucks Might work...BUT it also MIGHT cost a modeler a LOT of unnecessary grief

PS I no longer use dime store , Walmart, or Ace ...el cheapo super glues

[Randy Cuberly]

I've used the DuPont 3608 (I think that's right) thinner and it works very well with Sig, or Brodak. or Randolph's Dope.  However when I last went to "Finish Masters"  here in Tucson to buy another Gallon I found the price to be $44.00 for a gallon.

I'm going to go today and get some of the "Kleen Strip" and some retarder.  I trust Larry and Bill to give only good info.  Larry's finishes are about the very best ever seen.

Here in Tucson it's typically very dry but usually about 95 to 100 degrees when I have to spray outside early in the morning!  Without retarder the dope tends to dry before it gets to the surface of the airplane!  Leaves a ratty looking frosty appearance sometimes until sprayed with thinner!  Eddy Capitinelli , another superb finisher here in Tucson (gone from our midst now unfortunately) is the one that turned me on to the DuPont thinner many years ago.  Too bad it's also gotten rather expensive also.  Too bad I'm so cheap (read poor) these days. 

Actually this is no small deal for me as I'm in the lengthy process now of finishing 8 full size stunters.  Yes unfortunately that's 8 .... airplanes all framed up and ready for finish!

Anybody want's to help will be welcomed!   

Thanks Larry and Bill for the info about "Kleen Strip".

Randy Cuberly

[Randy Cuberly]

Hey, Larry!
One more thing...Do you have a recommendation for how much retarder to use in my case?

Randy Cuberly

[Roy DeCamara]

Hey guys, lets keep it civil.  Fred, I remember when I used to buy both acetone and lac thinner at HD for $7.97 a gallon.  Those days are long gone with the meteoric rise in oil prices.  As for Dupont 3608, it will work fine if you can find it.  If it is V3608 it will be low VOC and is what Larry says #turns to snot#.  Makes no difference what brand of paint company, low VOC is what the feds want us to use. but will not work with aircraft dope of any brand.  Dupont had several lac thinners or properly, reducers, made to work within a certain temperature range which varied the part number.  To solve Randy's problem with hot days in Tucson, one could buy a reducer to slow down the flash point and give the paint more time to film over. I use regular acrylic lac. primer.  I tried Dupont lacquer with the V181S and after spraying colored dope "worm" tracks appeared in the finish.  I hope I made some sense here.  I race ahead of my ability to type so some grammatical errors.

Lastly I would again say play nice in the sandbox and if you don't agree, GO FIND ANOTHER SANDBOX!!!

[Larry Fernandez]

I've used the DuPont 3608 (I think that's right) thinner and it works very well with Sig, or Brodak. or Randolph's Dope.  However when I last went to Master Finishers here in Tucson to buy another Gallon I found the price to be $44.00 for a gallon.

I'm going to go today and get some of the "Kleen Strip" and some retarder.  I trust Larry and Bill to give only good info.  Larry's finishes are about the very best ever seen.

Here in Tucson it's typically very dry but usually about 95 to 100 degrees when I have to spray outside early in the morning!  Without retarder the dope tends to dry before it gets to the surface of the airplane!  Leaves a ratty looking frosty appearance sometimes until sprayed with thinner!

Anybody want's to help will be welcomed!   

Thanks Larry and Bill for the info about "Kleen Strip".

Randy Cuberly

Hi Randy I'm glad you brought this up. I had this same problem years back. That frosty appearance is blushing. As the dope leaves the tip of you paint gun, the atomized dope/thinner picks up moisture from the air.
If the material sprayed onto your plane flashes of fast, it will trap that moisture in the finish thus causing blush. As you said, you can spray straight thinner over it. This will soften the material underneath to let the trapped moisture out.

Here is how I've been finishing for the last ten years or so. Once all the colors are sprayed on and your happy with what you have, put the plane away for a two or three weeks, giving it time to gass off and shrink, and yes it will shrink. dope is basicly laquer after all and laquer is always shrinking.

I then spray three coats of clear, thinned 2:1 ( 2 parts thinner 1 part clear) waiting a day between coats put the airplane away for two to three weeks to gas off. I then wet sand with 1000 paper, jst enough to level the texture and dull the finish. This also makes it easier to apply ink lines.

I then spray a wet coat of clear, again 2:1 with just a splash of retarder. This improves the flow out.
Wait a day and spray the next coat, using a tad more thiinner and a splash of retarder. you will be amazed at how flat and smooth this will flow out. Provided you are using the correct air pressure and the gun is at the propper distance from the sprayed surface.

Wait another day and your ready for the last coat.
Thin it a tad more than the last coat and again add a splash of retarder.

Put the plane away for about a month to gas off.
The longer it sits, the easier it is to color sand.


With a very smooth sprayed clear coat, I'm able to start wet sanding with 1500. It shouldt take much work to flatten out and dull the finish. I then sand with 2000 wet just to get rid of the 1500 marks.

You are now ready for the polish of your choice. I prefer 3M Finesse-ll.

Wax with quality carnubera wax to protect the finish from UV and fuel.

Then post pictures of your plane as it sits in the" Front Row"

[Randy Cuberly]

Larry,

Thanks very much for the tips.  I went for quite a while without finishing an airplane (about 10 years) due to health problems.  I did recently finish a Colossus that didn't turn out all that well!  It's OK I guess but it turned out to be an overweight "Flexi-Flier" impossible to keep in trim, and the finish was about three miles from the front row.

In the past I used a cheap but sort of adequate HVLP gun that probably just wore out because it gave a lot of problems during that build with inconsistent air and paint flow!  I recently acquired a new two gun set of DeVilbiss HVLP guns and I have big hopes for the finish on the new stunter in process right now.

I seriously doubt that I will ever be able to create a real "Front Row" finish, but know I can do better than before!

Thanks again,
Randy Cuberly   

[EddyR]

 Randy   I want to tell you about my experience that is similar to yours and what I found. I have been into spray finishing models airplanes, cars and bicycles since the 1950's and had good results for years with lacquer and dope. I went to the 1988 Nats and had a top three front row model. I moved to North Carolina in 2002 and my finishes were still OK for a few years but then they started to get dull and dry looking using dope. My bicycles still looked great. I was putting $500 paint jobs on bicycles using the same equipment as I was using for models. It took me five 5+ years to figure it out. I had used DuPont and another auto shop  brand of lacquer.  I found that the one brand was adding acetone in ever larger amounts. I stopped using that brand and tried the brand sold a Lowes and Home depot mentioned above and my finishes came back to bright and smooth. Note I had tried them many years before and they did not work. I believe what they sell now is a upgrade to the old product. I last paid $16 a gallon  at Lowes last winter .
  Over the years I have saved parts of old painted models to test paint on. It saves a lot of time in testin.
Ed

[Dane Martin]

It's OK I guess but it turned out to be an overweight "Flexi-Flier" impossible to keep in trim, and the finish was about three miles from the front row.

Mine was so far back, they created a row for my planes! Haha

[Dave Harmon]

I had a need to go to the local Walmart this evening and remembered this discussion.
I walked right up to the thinner which is exactly the same as in Larry's pictures and bought a gallon for $12.96.
Just wanted to mention it to help someone save a few bucks.