The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.

[jim ivey]

 one: It slows the airplane down due to the vacuum created on both sides of the wing. two: Once you change the angle of attack of the wing, it loses the vacuum on the positive side and increases it on the negative side, thus eliminating the need for flaps! ( thats why the stuka was flapless.)

[Randy Ryan]

Because he found it saved balsa in diecrushed, oops, die-cut sheets

[W.D. Roland]

Gota ask
polliwog =reflexed on both sides( lack of better description at the moment).

The original plans Quicker was this way and the the California models kit used same airfoil as VooDoo.

Sound right???

[leoflyboy]

There are many other subtle features in Hi,s design of the Stuka, since you{mr Ivey} had one could you describe some of them for newer pilots??Regards Rob F

[W.D. Roland]

Yes Jim, Help us  here!

 Want to learn and will be your humble some times smart ass student( well I will at least)

David

[FLOYD CARTER]

No.  No.  The pollywog airfoil did not save wood.  Hi Johnson didn't want the expense, or couldn't make shaped trailing edges.  So the T.E. is a rectangular piece. The "pollywog" made a smooth transition into the flat trailing edge piece.
I have a "pollywog" Chief, and I can't tell any difference between a "pollywog" and a conventional airfloil.

Floyd

[Randy Ryan]

Randy, turned head and whispering over his shoulder, "Don't tell Floyd, but It was to save money on balsa, just like rectangular TE stock was to save money on machining."

[Bob Kruger]

Because he found it saved balsa in diecrushed, oops, die-cut sheets

Randy;

Not according to Bob Palmer.

V/r

Bob Kruger

[W.D. Roland]

Apologies for the sloppy drawing but hey..week before fist contest in 35 years!
So 8 lightning strokes of the pen with a few hiccups My guess is that #1 is a polly wog?


#1 Quicker Before California Models kit
#2 Normal
#3 Combat plane I designed in 69-70. Straight because at 12 years old it was easy to draw. Worked good.
#4 Based on NASA work, used on hand launch glider (flying models early 70s?)

[jim ivey]

Well in the case of the "stuka".  It was as i posted. There was nothing to do with getting more ribs ot of a sheet of balsa.( It was never kitted)  and the chief, the original wasn't "polywog". Dad and I built one about 1954 I helped cover it myself. NOT POLYWOG! The reason I remember that so well, was, it was our first time cover wet instead of dry. We died the silkspan with rit die. RED and CHARTRUESE, covered the whole airplane . no paint just clear. Polywog was called that because of the shape, you know , like a baby frog! I called them "Tadpoles" Hi didnt like it when I called it that. As for Rileys planes I cant speak, never built one. However I seem to remember his "diamond" airfoil. There would be no reason for a polywog , tadpole or baby frog airfoil on a combat plane it would be like putting air brakes on it.(Hmmmm. maybe thats why he was so slow.) If you dont hafta glue the covering to the ribs its probably not a polywog

[john e. holliday]

And some people swear that the Chief had to have the covering glued to each and every rib.   

[Glenn (Gravitywell) Reach]

Did anyone out there ever build one of Hi's famouse Stunting Stuka's, and if so, do you have a picture you could post and a description of flight characteristics?  I loved that plane and had the plans for years, but could never bring myself to build it cause it looked too complicated for my skill level.

[phil c]

Did anyone out there ever build one of Hi's famouse Stunting Stuka's, and if so, do you have a picture you could post and a description of flight characteristics?  I loved that plane and had the plans for years, but could never bring myself to build it cause it looked too complicated for my skill level.

Someone(sorry I forget the name) brought what he said was an original HJ Stuka built by Johnson, complete with a Johnson SS engine.  It flew fine, although he was pretty careful not to get too low.

I always liked the HJ Stuka and got a copy of the original article.  Very interesting.  The plane pictured uses a flat flap similar to a Flight Streak.  The plans show the wing ribs cut in a pollywog shape.  Totally different airplanes.  The article goes on to say that you should adjust the tail length and size of the tail to suit your own preferences as to how sensitive you want the controls.  Kind of leaves it wide open, you can build almost anything you want using the plans and the article as a guide and call it a Hi Johnson Stuka.  Just my kind of design.

[leoflyboy]

I,m building one right now,along with 10 short kits! Lotta work.There were only 3 built way back when,1of which was by Jim Ivey. Its a lovely plane,all who flew it said it had a wicked good turn. And yes its a complicated,read hard to build model.But why build only easy stuff? You,ll never learn anything taking the easy road,besides this model deserves to be reborn so others can see theres more than 1 way to fly stunt! Hi Johnson wasa tireless innovator,who has gifted us with this design as well as hiswell done engines. I,ll try to post pics on project,a first for me,till then, fly stunt!  Rob f

[RogerGreene]

I don't have the stuka plans but I do have the Hi Johnson's Spitfire. They were drawn by Hi march 25, 1959. Here are some of the polywog airfoils on the Spitfire.

Roger

[Glenn (Gravitywell) Reach]

Leoflyboy.....I for one would dearly love to see some pics of your build, and any info on those short kits would also be appreciated.

[jim ivey]

I would love to show it to also, but someone has removed from the internet, All the sites. This also explains why all my files and pics became corrupted. Good job whoever you are. I'm sure you're not honest enough to P.M. me and explain why!!!               .!.    jim

[Chris McMillin]

Sean Whitely built a beautiful Hi Johnson Stunting Stuka and flew it at VSC in the 90's. I believe it had an unfortunate accident.
Chris...

[Mike Keville]

The original 51" span Veco Chief (c.1951-52) DID in fact have a "pollywog" airfoil.  I know, because I had one.  The later (53" span) versions kitted by Veco & Dumas did NOT.  As far as I know, only the 51" pollywog design is eligible for OTS.  The others are for Classic.

As for the Hi Johnson Stuka, Sean Whitely's was a beauty.  Then, a few years ago, Tony Naccarato brought a partially framed-up one of those to the VSC.  Haven't seen it, or Tony, since.

[leoflyboy]

Gravitywell ,et all,will read up on how to post pics of Stuka build as well as short kits. Will have molded LEs,turtle deck and part of cowl.Requires an easily built dihedral jig,used later in final asy.Pics after weekend.Anyone curious about polywog airfoil ,Google "reflex airfoil" good explanation of tech reasons this works as well as it does!Too bad Mr Johnson left us so early,his innovations are still comming to light ,50 years on,nothing like a great,daring innovater. Thanks to all for your interest!!  Rob F

[W.D. Roland]

Jim
Check your email.

[FLOYD CARTER]

I think I blamed Hi Johnson for the "pollywog" airfoil and the rectangular T.E.  Now, my memory says it was Gil Henry who actually engineered the Chief kit for HECO. 

Floyd

[jim ivey]

reply to#9      Daaaaaaaave!!!! A 'fist contest" ? didnt know they had em! were you the "fister" or "fistee"?

[W.D. Roland]

Knowing my luck both at the same time.

[Bill Little]

(snip) and the chief, the original wasn't "polywog". Dad and I built one about 1954 I helped cover it myself. NOT POLYWOG! (snip)

Hi Jim,

Not to beat a dead horse, but Ty and Mike Keville are totally correct.  Ty even has an *Original* Chief *Kit* from Veco.  It most assuredly HAS a *pollywog* airfoil.  Maybe not quite as severe as Hi's Stuka, but definitely a pollywog (looks like a tadpole) airfoil.

The second generation Chief kit from Veco did not have the reflex airfoil, so that could have easily been the one you and your Dad built in 1954 or so. 

Joe Wagner's plans for the Chief and Super Chief did not have reflex airfoils, but Gil Henry used it anyway in the first Chief kit to match the trailing edge stock he had on hand (as quoted from Mr. Bob Palmer).

Hi's Stuka is a truly beautiful stunt ship!  I saw what was supposed to be one of the originals at a Brodak Fly In several years ago.

Mongo

[jim ivey]

Ok the only thing to do with a dead horse is to call the dog food company or the tallow factory.(as you can see been there done that.) however we're talking model airplanes here. Post a pic of that die-cut rib sheet. Please I'd like to see it. You can buy a web-cam at walmart that will work just fine cost less than 15 dollars. Even I can afford that. jim

[Bill Little]

Ok the only thing to do with a dead horse is to call the dog food company or the tallow factory.(as you can see been there done that.) however we're talking model airplanes here. Post a pic of that die-cut rib sheet. Please I'd like to see it. You can buy a web-cam at walmart that will work just fine cost less than 15 dollars. Even I can afford that. jim

Step back, and stand down, Jim.  I am simply telling you (as well as several others are) that something is truth.  And it is a well known truth.  I do not have the kit, or I WOULD post a picture of whatever you wanted to see, and it wouldn't take a web cam to do it, simply a camera.  The original Veco Chief kit had pollywog wing ribs.  Nothing can change that fact.  Period. 

Bill Little

[Glenn (Gravitywell) Reach]

I can also attest to the Cheif having polywog ribs.  I had the original kit years ago and the polywog scared me off of building it, so I sold it to a friend of mine.

[Glenn (Gravitywell) Reach]

Well Ty....I believed you have closed that argument!

[Brett Buck]

While I'm at it, engine choices and fuselage widths options.

   Throw that Ohlsson 23 in there and come on down to VSC!  Bob Palmer was clearly an optimist.


     Brett

[FLOYD CARTER]

Palmer's GO DEVIL (similar to a Chief) actually flew with my O&R 29, but just barely.  I later removed the O&R and replaced it with an Evo 36.  Much better!  Bob claimed to have flown a Chief (or maybe Go Devil) with an O&R 23, but that now seems amazing, based on my personal experience.

Flo9yd

[john e. holliday]

Thanks for all the detail pics.   

[jim ivey]

TY FYI veco didnt make a 35 back then no one did

[Marvin Denny]

What about the Fox 35???
  Also ---when Ty built his,  there were lots of 35 size engines around.
  I saw a Chief with a McCoy 19 rear rotor speed engine in it.  It flew very well until the control system jammed and it went in.  That was in either late 1951 or 1052 at Sheppard AFB  TX.

  Bigiron

[Chuck Feldman]

  Oh yes I want to get in here and stir the pot some to. My Father built a Veco chief and it was of the long span 53 or 54" and it had pollywog ribs. He had a devil of a time trying to get the paper to stay down. The Ringmaster also had pollywog airfoil and it was a little easier. Both of these ships had Fox engines one was 29 other was 35. So figure this one out?

I am currently building from plans, a Super Chief (Wagner plans). It shows the kit version of the Chief and also shows the Super Chief which was never a kit. No mention is given for the 51 1/2 " wing spans. They are all 53" according to Wagner. He mentions that George Aldridge flew the super chief in 1950 & 51 and that two California fliers also built the Super Chief. This documentation would have to mean that at least the Super Chief is legal in OTS. It would seem to me that all Chiefs are OTS legal but these decision's are not for me to make.

 

[Bill Little]

Oh yes I want to get in here and stir the pot some to. My Father built a Veco chief and it was of the long span 53 or 54" and it had pollywog ribs. He had a devil of a time trying to get the paper to stay down. The Ringmaster also had pollywog airfoil and it was a little easier. Both of these ships had Fox engines one was 29 other was 35. So figure this one out?

I am currently building from plans, a Super Chief (Wagner plans). It shows the kit version of the Chief and also shows the Super Chief which was never a kit. No mention is given for the 51 1/2 " wing spans. They are all 53" according to Wagner. He mentions that George Aldridge flew the super chief in 1950 & 51 and that two California fliers also built the Super Chief. This documentation would have to mean that at least the Super Chief is legal in OTS. It would seem to me that all Chiefs are OTS legal but these decision's are not for me to make.

 

HI Chuck,

The rationale on the "non legality" of the 2nd version Veco Chief *KIT* is that it was introduced after Jan. 1, 1953. 

Under the original GSCB OTS rules, Joe's Super Chief wasn't legal, only the first Veco kit.  Simply because Joe's Super Chief wasn't kitted or published prior to 12-31-52.  The PAMPA rules are less restrictive and most everyone is using them, now.

Big Bear

[Chuck Feldman]

  Hello Bill,  The plans that I am using clearly state that the Super Chief was developed by George Aldridge in 1950 and 51. I do not think a ship has to be kitted or published to be OTS  legal. The most popular models in use today never where to the best of my knowledge. Thanks Chuck

[De Hill]

Chuck,


Didn't Joe Wagner claim the super chief?

[Chuck Feldman]

Joe does not claim the Super Chief. He just reported that George was refining the Chief and that the super was a considerable improve over the original. I personally Believe that the Super Chief was 51 1/2" span just like the Original Chief. They are both in the same years. The Chief that is on the plans I have is the one that Veco produced and it was 53". Perhaps someone can confirm my opinion that the Super was 51 1/2" We shall see.

[De Hill]

George Aldrich told me that he built 17  different modified Chiefs. The 17th modification was named the Nobler.

I think if someone looked at the Super Chief plans, he would find out who the designer of the Super Chief is.

You could also google Joe Wagner.

[Bill Morell]

TY FYI veco didnt make a 35 back then no one did

 What about the Vivell 35???

[BillLee]

Many of you may remember "SMALLnet" that was originated and run by Randy Randolph and "Veco" Joe Wagner. I was in the fortunate position of actually building and maintaining the website for Joe. Joe included many comments regarding "full-size plans for all my Veco free flight designs and three of my Veco C/L models too." The CL models were  "... Sioux, Chiefs, Squaws, Scouts, etc.".

I suspect if you asked Joe he would claim that the Chief was HIS design. He is the Engine Columnist for Model Aviation and you can get his e-mail there. If you contact him, please let us all know what he says.

Regards,

Bill Lee

PS: If anybody is interested, I could possible reincarnate the SMALLnet archives. Lots of good information there. Lots that is badly outdated as well since it was all written in the period 2000-2008

[Brett Buck]

George Aldrich told me that he built 17  different modified Chiefs. The 17th modification was named the Nobler.

   He told me (all of us) that, too, on the old RCO forum. And there was some pretty nice engineering reasoning applied to get there.

   A lot of the top guys from that era get underestimated as far as their knowledge goes, unfairly. We know a lot more now, but only because we have had (collectively)  60 extra years to work the problems - and a head start from the good old days.

   We stand on the shoulders of giants.

    Brett

[FLOYD CARTER]

Well, I , for one, do.

Floyd

[Bill Little]

Hi Ty,

I also think most guys (and gals I guess! LOL!!) who seriously fly OTS still balk on the loss of 10 points for flaps.  No one I know of around here (SE U.S.) has "Phase II" OTS for the flapped planes. 

I would still like to build a Super Chief one day to Joe's specs.  Super light, minimal finish, good .35 (I have a brand new Fox .35 sand cast ??).  I could also use the "wrong side exhaust" Allyn/Veco .35 I have.

Bill

[Mike Keville]

"...Anyone flying a Chief in OTS is doing so for pure fun, it is not, for the most part, a very competitive model..."   

Ty is essentially correct there, except I'll have to go out on a limb here and say that the finest, crispest OTS pattern I've ever seen flown was by Ted Fancher with an early version (i.e., pollywog airfoil) Chief at a long-ago VSC.  He seemed to have it "in the bag"....right up 'til his engine (Johnson .32?) went sour for whatever reason.

Ted is currently at the Golden State meet in CA.  Perhaps he'll see this upon return and explain about that engine run which pretty much ruined his chances.  Prior to that unfortunate incident his Chief was "on rails" --- again, perhaps the finest OTS flight I've ever seen.

By the way, I keep calling the event OTS.  In some circles (pun intended) it is today more likely to be called "the Jamison event" --- and, like many others, I'm not real thrilled about that.

Cheers!

[Tom Niebuhr]

Mike,

"it is today more likely to be called "the Jamison event" --- and, like many others, I'm not real thrilled about that."

I hope to change that this coming March.

[Brett Buck]

The Model Airplane News plans of the Nobler are very interesting. I was doing one along with a 1949 kit of the Chief. The wings are very, very similar less the polywog airfoil and with a swept leading edge. The horizontal stab and elevators are EXACTLY the same size and shape, but the Nobler version is thicker.

   The key breakthrough was lengthening the tail moment to get rid of occasional violent roll/yaw motions. The effect was to reduce the ratio of pitch rate to lift generation and keep it from stalling. The tapered wing provided additional yaw stability and less coupling.

      Brett

[jim ivey]

Big bear joe didnt design the supercheif, hi and bob did.

[Chuck Feldman]

I have received two emails from Joe Wagner. He has given me permission to put his letter on Stunt Hanger but so far I have not found a way to do it.  I have been mistaken previous to this in mentioning the 53 " Chief. The plans I have (wagners) build a 51 1/2" wing. Joe says that he built the Super Chief by Modifying the Original Chief. He took two of them to the 1950 Nat's. While there his room mate was none other than George Aldridge (Navy Housing remember?) at that time George was a young man. George had a Chief that he had build. George was very impressed now much better the Super Chief flew than the Chief. When they all went home George had a set of Super Chief templates for the Super Chief. George set to work on the Super Chief making many improvements until he finally had the "First Nobler". Now that I have said the above I have to mention that it is not Joe Wagners letter. It is excerpt's from his letter. OK now I will try to find a way to put Joe's letter on here. If I don't find a way I will forward his letter to anyone who requests to read it.

I have to say that I never knew the Chief was involved in all this legal discussion for OTS. I want to add that I see no reason for the 10 point bonus for not using flaps? Do you think the flap legal planes would win the event all the time if they flew on the same basis as the non-flapped ones? I do not think so even though there are several ships that are great and OTS Legal. I.E; Smoothie, Nobler, Super Chief, and yes the Chief Pollywog or not (51 1/2" span)

Chuck