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Author Topic: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.  (Read 15827 times)

Offline De Hill

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2010, 04:35:45 PM »
George Aldrich used to sit around the pool at night at the Rodeway Inn during the VSC's in Tucson, and tell stories of the old days to a bunch of us who would sit around and listen. George said that he used to go out to Los Angeles for the summers when he was a teenager. He  would work part time for Fox manufacturing and spend the evenings with Bob Palmer building and flying controline model airplanes. George told us that he received a pre production Chief kit from Bob Palmer and built it. 17 modified Chiefs later he built the final version which was called the Nobler.

George never mentioned Joe Wagner during his stories of the Chief/Nobler.

So what is the truth?

Does Joe Wagner have anyone who could verify his version of Chief story?

Unfortunately, George Aldrich and Bob Palmer have passed away, and we can't ask them about the Chief story.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 07:17:40 PM by De Hill »
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Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2010, 03:53:36 AM »
 H^^ Really De? Do you have anyone to verify that what you say is the truth? Your last respounce on this thread is, I think beyond the conduct that is the norm on this site. It is time for me to move on, away from this thread. H^^
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Offline De Hill

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2010, 06:28:45 AM »
Forgive me for musing out loud, Chuck.

As far as you moving on, that's your choice.
De Hill

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2010, 07:23:01 AM »
I have received two emails from Joe Wagner. He has given me permission to put his letter on Stunt Hanger but so far I have not found a way to do it. ...Chuck

Why not just highlight the text and use the "copy" and "paste" functions? Copy the e-mail and paste the text into the SH message/editing box. I have done this often, sometimes with formatting complictaions, but it has always worked.

SK

Online Brett Buck

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2010, 10:41:06 AM »
H^^ Really De? Do you have anyone to verify that what you say is the truth? Your last respounce on this thread is, I think beyond the conduct that is the norm on this site. It is time for me to move on, away from this thread. H^^

   De and I have had our disagreements from time to time, but nothing he said is out of bounds and there's no reason to doubt what he says. I think you are reading far more into it than there is, it seems pretty innocuous. He's just relaying what he was told.

    Brett

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2010, 04:19:22 PM »
Ty is essentially correct there, except I'll have to go out on a limb here and say that the finest, crispest OTS pattern I've ever seen flown was by Ted Fancher with an early version (i.e., pollywog airfoil) Chief at a long-ago VSC.  He seemed to have it "in the bag"....right up 'til his engine (Johnson .32?) went sour for whatever reason.

Ted is currently at the Golden State meet in CA.  Perhaps he'll see this upon return and explain about that engine run which pretty much ruined his chances.  Prior to that unfortunate incident his Chief was "on rails" --- again, perhaps the finest OTS flight I've ever seen.

By the way, I keep calling the event OTS.  In some circles (pun intended) it is today more likely to be called "the Jamison event" --- and, like many others, I'm not real thrilled about that.

Cheers!

HI Mikey.  Thanks for the kind words.  A little clarification is, however, necessary.

My Chief was not the early polliwog version and was flown only in classic the year that Bob Baron won the event with his reproduction of one of his versions of the flapless, twin boom high speed stunters (Old Timers is once again failing to disgorge the name of this well know ship...somebody will remind us).  As I recall I came in second to Bob that year despite an overrun due to trouble getting my small case Johnson "s" started in a timely fashion.  Lost landing and, of course, pattern points as a result.  It was, as you reported, an excellent flight that just took too long to complete.  With a reasonable landing and the pattern points it would have been a fairly large margin of victory but, alas, that's not how the rules work.  Bob Hunt was one of the judges that year and has several times commented on the quality of pattern the old Chief was able to produce.

The airplane is still hanging on the wall of my office but the little Johnson was replaced late in its useful life with an Aldrich McCoy .40 which, frankly, was way more power than the very light ship required.  It did its best work with the little "s".  That engine, by the way, was the very same engine I had in my first Ares which I built immediately after seeing Billy win the '59 Walker Cup.  I was dating Shareen at the time and she "helped" me paint it in the back of Paulsen Office and Hobby supply where I worked after school and weekends for a time.

I guess I shouldn't complain about her helping me paint the Ares.  It was a whole lot more benign than the "assistance" she provided on my VSC Nobler.

Ted

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2010, 05:05:02 PM »
My Chief was not the early polliwog version and was flown only in classic the year that Bob Baron won the event
Ted

Ted:  Whoops...thought it was the polliwog version.  No matter.  That was still among the finest patterns I've ever witnessed....right up 'til the infamous flameout.

As for Shareen's "assistance" with your Nobler, Uncle Jimby's video of that recreated event remains an all-time favorite here.
 
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2010, 07:24:30 PM »
Replies # 30, 32, 35 and 39 should clear this whole thing up.  Check 'em out.
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Offline George

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2010, 04:06:38 PM »
A couple of notes from Joe Wagner's Chief/Super Chief plan:

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Offline jim ivey

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2010, 04:16:56 PM »
ty check this out        Chief vs. Superchief‏
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View detailsTo jvey41@hotmail.com
From: Joe Wagner (vecojoe@juno.com) 
Sent: Tue 10/26/10 9:18 PM
To:  jvey41@hotmail.com


Dear Jim, Good to hear from you ! I met you once or twice in the mid-1950'sand still remember your happy-go-lucky attitude... Here's the FULL story of the Chief/Super Chief. 1. The first Veco Chief was an improved version of Bob Palmer's earlier"Go-Devil Senior", as kitted by Burbank Mfg. Co. circa mid-1947. (The assets of that company were transferred to Veco -- then Heco --in 1948.) The Chief changes from the Go-Devil included full-span flaps and Fox .35 power. (The Go-Devil used half-span flaps & was powered by an Orwick .64 spark ignition engine. Both the Go-Devil and the first-version Heco/Veco Chief used a "pollywog" wing airfoil.) Note that there was NO relation between the Veco Chief and the"Boxcar Chief". The "Boxcar Chief" was made by Ricks Mfg.Company; they went bankrupt and Veco bought their assets(very cheap) and started the Veco kit-making business at Ricks'old premises at 2400 North Hollywood Way in Burbank. 2. I joined Veco in the Fall of 1949, as a free flight designer. For the upcoming 1950 Nationals at Dallas I designed a greatly-modified version of the Veco Chief (the one with the pollywog airfoil) to fly as my personal entry. This was the ORIGINAL "Super Chief".  It used the same wing and horizontal tail planforms as the Veco Chief (version 1) but had a different airfoil and was constructed MUCH differently. 3. I built two Super Chiefs and took them to Dallas. At the motel there I shared a room with George Aldrich. ( This was a "luck of the draw" situation.) We knew nothing of one another at the time. George was a mere 16 then; just starting out in his stunt-flying career.  He admired the way my Super Chiefs performed; much better than the stock Veco Chief (with its pollywog wing) he had built at that time.  After the Nationals I supplied George with templates for the Super Chief. (No full-size plans were drawn up for that -- in those days we at Veco didn't build our prototypes from plans, but from thin aircraft plywood templates.) 4. My Super Chiefs flew so much better than the first-version Chiefs, we decided to revise the Veco kit to an improved version. However, that differed from my Super Chief in several ways, mostly because "management" felt that my built-up flaps and tail surfaces were too advanced for "the average modeler" to accept. 5. The Veco Chief (final version) used sheet balsa flaps and tail surfaces, a more scale-like fuselage design; and a thinner airfoil. (This was purely for economy -- so that more ribs would fit on a die-cut sheet) 6. Meanwhile, George Aldrich (living in San Antonio, TX, 1200 miles east of the Veco plant in Burbank, CA) continued with his Super Chiefs, modifying those he built and flew in several ways that he felt improved the performance even more. One was changing the control hookup so as to provide equal deflection for the flaps and elevators. George then went to a tapered wing planform, and eventually ended up with his "Nobler" configuration, using the fuselage shape and color scheme of the French Caudron race plane of 1936. 7. George and I kept in touch from time to time; and after he had won several prestigious model contests with his Nobler, and finished school, he visited the Veco factory, hoping to get a job there working alongside Bob Palmer, Hi Johnson, and me.As an inducement, he offered Gil Henry (Veco's Big Boss) royalty-free rights to kit his Nobler. Gil -- always short-sighted -- turned George down flat. 8. Having seen the benefits of my Super Chief's thick, built-up flaps and tail surfaces, Bob Palmer (who had left Veco by then and gone back to work for Lockheed) came up with his "Smoothie" design, which Veco kitted... Bob's later "Thunderbird" was thefinal derivative of the Super Chief -- although it owed more to my own final improvement to the big stunt model, the "Hand-kerchief" (so-called because it was covered with royal blue dyed silk "kerchiefs" that Thrifty Drug Stores happened to have "on sale" CHEAP at that time. ...I do still sell copies of my Chief/Super Chief (and Squaw) full-size plans. But I don't have any on hand right now. I'llhave more printed tomorrow, on my way back to southernCalifornia from my present home in southeast Alabama. Sincerely, Joe

Offline jim ivey

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2010, 05:17:08 PM »
to bob, bill and randy.   feel free to remove my post about the polywog and the chief. I think the email from oh yeah I forgot to mention my friend joe. I think uts settled now. no need to cut and paste anymore Ty    jim

Offline jim gilmore

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2010, 09:50:43 PM »
I'm confused bt an earlier statement, I thought the ju-87 stuka had flaps.
Or maybe it was not the ju-87 you meant by the term stuka ?

Offline jim ivey

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2010, 04:29:39 PM »
Ty and everyone else I seemed to offend . Sorry , I only intended to tell you guys what Hi's thinking was behind that pollywog airfoil on the stuka. Because someone asked. Again sorry To one and all    jim I

Offline Bill Little

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2010, 01:59:27 PM »
Ty and everyone else I seemed to offend . Sorry , I only intended to tell you guys what Hi's thinking was behind that pollywog airfoil on the stuka. Because someone asked. Again sorry To one and all    jim I

Hi Jim,

Not a problem on my end.  I love a good debate as long as it stays civil.  You have seen a lot in yuor day, and the information is good to know.

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Offline George

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2010, 08:40:22 PM »
Jim,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Many of us have heard bits and pieces, but not the whole story.

Joe Wagner adds interesting notes to his plans that provide some insight, but of course, not the whole story.

George
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Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2010, 05:06:47 AM »
Bill,

Thanks for your help.  I think this on going issue may finally be settled. D>K
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Offline De Hill

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2010, 02:04:13 PM »
As I said, We used to sit around the pool in the evenings at the VSC's years ago, and listen to George Aldrich and Bob Palmer talk about the old days .

Bob Palmer was very unhappy because Joe Wagner redesigned the Chief.

George Aldrich didn't think much of Joe Wagner's opinon's regarding engines.

Many guys listened to the stories, and I'm sure that some of them are still around.

And Chuck, I don't lie.
De Hill

Offline dale gleason

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2010, 04:02:55 PM »
I didn't get to sit around the pool and listen/argue with GMA. But we had our differences...about really important stuff. Like the color of his Nobler at the Longview, Tx meet in 1956 (or was it 57?) It was Maroon, dammit! And his FliteStreak (with the new Combat Fox silver head) was yellow Jap tissue and Maroon, dammit! The reason I knew these facts was I was 13 or 14 at the time, and George was really old, probably 24 years old, thereabouts, walking around on water.....he won Open, with a little wind sailing after the pattern (clockwise) and he won combat, beating our own Werner Harvey easily, Werner's  Halfast was no match for the FS, sporting a single wheel.

Years/decades flew by, Clarence Buhl's dog jumped up on George at the VSC, I held a hanker-Chief on his bleeding noggin, (George's not the dog's) and suddenly he recalled the maroon (dammit) Nobler! Maroon Testor's butyrate in the square jar, wouldn't shrink for beans....but, hey,  don't get me started.....

dg :)

PS: Lordy, I love this hobby....
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 05:55:03 PM by dale gleason »

Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2010, 04:43:09 PM »
Dale
I have been told y'all kept  loosing the HLGs......I don't think GMA was to blame. Neither was Cliff.
And it wasn't my Diapers either.

 >:D
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Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2010, 04:57:49 AM »
 ::) 8) ;) :D :) #^ :)! n~ :##

And the Beat goes on

 ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline jim ivey

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2010, 06:55:36 PM »
Seems joe and I are the only ones whos chiefs didn't have a polywog.  lets see now joe drew the one I built. I think his E-mail sorta prooved that. And like ty said about the veco35. Idont really dont really care about the old go-devil chief be cause i never built one.  I dont care what someone else built or think they saw someone else build . It has nothing to do with this thread!  It is about Hi's thinking when he designed the stuka and why it was flapless. jim

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2010, 06:59:20 PM »
Seems joe and I are the only ones whos chiefs didn't have a polywog. 

Well, then you and Joe obviously did not have one of the early 1950s Veco kits.  It's that simple.
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Offline billbyles

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2010, 09:03:31 PM »
Well, then you and Joe obviously did not have one of the early 1950s Veco kits.  It's that simple.

Yeah, Mikey,

They musta had one a the "better looking" non-pollywog airfoiled later Chiefs! VD~

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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2010, 08:21:19 PM »
They musta had one a the "better looking" non-pollywog airfoiled later Chiefs! VD~

"Better looking"?  Not by a long shot!  The original, 51" span, early '50s Chief (and its smaller cousin, the 39.25" span Squaw) featured gently rounded tips on their wings, stab/elev's and fins.  They had a very pleasant appearance, as opposed to the later re-designs marketed by both Veco & Dumas, both of which had "regular" airfoils and unappealing, squared-off tips.  Those Joe Wagner re-designs were completely different designs.  (The re-designed Squaw, in particular, was an abomination!)  "Beauty" being in the eye of the beholder, my opinion is that the later versions were MUCH less appealing, aesthetically.

(Egad!  I used to make fun of crabby old curmudgeons who couldn't let go of the past .... and suddenly it turns out that I BE one.  Sorry, folks...)
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Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #74 on: November 02, 2010, 05:28:43 AM »
 D>K Mike or somebody. Does anyone have photographs that show the two models. I would be interested in seeing the beautiful Chief and the ugly Chief. Same for the Squaw.
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Offline billbyles

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #75 on: November 02, 2010, 09:04:26 AM »
"Better looking"?  Not by a long shot!  The original, 51" span, early '50s Chief (and its smaller cousin, the 39.25" span Squaw) featured gently rounded tips on their wings, stab/elev's and fins.  They had a very pleasant appearance, as opposed to the later re-designs marketed by both Veco & Dumas, both of which had "regular" airfoils and unappealing, squared-off tips.  Those Joe Wagner re-designs were completely different designs.  (The re-designed Squaw, in particular, was an abomination!)  "Beauty" being in the eye of the beholder, my opinion is that the later versions were MUCH less appealing, aesthetically.

(Egad!  I used to make fun of crabby old curmudgeons who couldn't let go of the past .... and suddenly it turns out that I BE one.  Sorry, folks...)


Gee, and I'm so surprised to get that reaction from you Mikey, who'd a thunk it?... S?P
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Online Dennis Toth

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #76 on: November 03, 2010, 10:37:23 AM »
Guys,
Seems this got away from the original question - why the Polywog? I think the discussion about the saving wood is one that has been going around for a long time. It seems that there is truth to this, whether it was to use the square stock for TE or to get more ribs per sheet can be resolved. In one of the posts someone has an original Chief kit - polywog - count the ribs per sheet and post them. Then we need someone who has the later symmetrical wing and count the ribs per sheet - post them here.
One other possibility is that it was simply a marketing gimmick that was used to get flyer's to buy the kit. Someone must have one of the old Air Trail mags from when the Chief was first introduced. Would be interesting to see if the add calls out anything about the wing design (remember the adds for the differential flaps on the "T" Bird and the "flys better in the wind" airfoil for the Smoothy).
What hasn't been addressed is does the polywog airfoil have any advantages? In the post on Hi Johnsons "Stuka", Hi seems to think that it performs as good or close enough to a flapped symmetrical design without the hookup complication (on his version of the Stuka with the double angle TE the full flaps would be a challenge). In an article on the sidemount Barnstormer, Dave Cook indicated that Lew Andrews also thought that the flat flap with square edges gave performance that matched the flapped ships. Now the question is if it works well with fixed TE flap does it work better or worst with movable flaps? It seems that if it did it wasn't that much of an advantage to go through the trouble of sticking down the covering. Anyone build and fly both versions of the Chief?
Best,           DennisT

Offline Bill Little

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #77 on: November 03, 2010, 10:47:39 AM »
Hi Dennis,

Jim did describe the thoughts Hi had on the pollywog in his first post.  That is the answer for at least Hi's thinking. 

According to Bob Palmer, in his words, the Heco/Veco reason was to use existing TE stock.  Bob was working for Gil Henry at the time, so I am inclined to go with that answer. ;D

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Offline George

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #78 on: November 03, 2010, 01:51:03 PM »
"Better looking"?  Not by a long shot!  The original, 51" span, early '50s Chief (and its smaller cousin, the 39.25" span Squaw) featured gently rounded tips on their wings, stab/elev's and fins.  They had a very pleasant appearance, as opposed to the later re-designs marketed by both Veco & Dumas, both of which had "regular" airfoils and unappealing, squared-off tips.  Those Joe Wagner re-designs were completely different designs.  (The re-designed Squaw, in particular, was an abomination!)  "Beauty" being in the eye of the beholder, my opinion is that the later versions were MUCH less appealing, aesthetically.

(Egad!  I used to make fun of crabby old curmudgeons who couldn't let go of the past .... and suddenly it turns out that I BE one.  Sorry, folks...)


Mike, someone posted a later Dumas Chief that sorta resembled a Flite Streak, but that was WAY after Joe's redesign. Might that be the version you are referring to?

George
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Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #79 on: November 03, 2010, 02:28:31 PM »
A question that may fit in with this discussion

So why did Riley use Polywog on Quicker? the plan built not the kit

Or same question for Bobby James 'A Bomb' that won Stunt and 3rd in A speed in 55?


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Offline Marvin Denny

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #80 on: November 03, 2010, 04:40:03 PM »
  Also Dave Gierke used the poly-wog airfoil on his NOVI IV stunter.  It flies extreemly well.

  Bigiron
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2010, 09:17:59 PM »
(remember the adds for the differential flaps on the "T" Bird and the "flys better in the wind" airfoil for the Smoothy).
What hasn't been addressed is does the polywog airfoil have any advantages? In the post on Hi Johnsons "Stuka", Hi seems to think that it performs as good or close enough to a flapped symmetrical design without the hookup complication (on his version of the Stuka with the double angle TE the full flaps would be a challenge). In an article on the sidemount Barnstormer, Dave Cook indicated that Lew Andrews also thought that the flat flap with square edges gave performance that matched the flapped ships. Now the question is if it works well with fixed TE flap does it work better or worst with movable flaps?

A few comments that are illustrated in other threads and mentioned often enough...

1) Just a FWIW: I don't remember anyone mentioning the airfoil of the "Smoothie" in the windy weather ads. Although the term airfoil technically refers to an actual wing, we are used to using it in place of "wing section", and since we're talking about the chief's section, I assume this was meant. My impression has always been that the planview shape of the "Smoothie's" wing was given the credit for windy weather advantages. I can see this, since it approximates an elliptical wing. The MAC of an elliptical wing is about 42% of the half span out, which is farther inboard than any other shape not approaching a delta or triangular wing. This concentrates the lateral upset forces inboard, where they don't have  as much unbalanced leverage. So I wouldn't think in those terms regarding airfoils - pollywog or not.

2) I think that the polywog shape would be a disadvantage with flaps, since like Al Rabe and Igor Burger say, it should be better to ease the transition at the hinge line by making the aft section, before the flaps, a bit convex.

3) I agree that the polywog, perhaps with the concave surface concentrated a bit further back, would be advantageous for flapless wings though, since it would be a smoother approximation of the ordinary section with flat stationary flaps - like the Flite Streak. As I posted, NACA tested at full size and found this to be a more efficient wing at zero flap deflection than one with the flaps as part of the "airfoiled" wing section. XFOIL agreed, when I had it test such a wing vs. the NACA 00xx section of the same % thickness.

4) Whether a plane flies better with or without flaps is a function of the following:

     a) The tail moment available to overcome the wing's negative pitching moment tendency from deflected flaps.  The PDQ "Super Clown", Sterling
         Yak-9 and P-51 come to mind as too short-coupled to show a definite advantage.

     b) The relative deflection of flaps and elevator.

     c) Personal preference.

I think that the polywog airfoil might be quite good on a flapless plane, but cannot imagine it being any kind of advantage on a flapped plane. From what I've read, the squared-off t.e. flap has advantages - what used to be termed the Kamm effect on race cars. Probably a tapered flap, like 1/4" -> 1/8", with sharply edged trailing edge would allow the air to rejoin down stream, giving the effect of an area increase. Again, amount of flap used vs. total wing area is the consideration.

Edit: The last question...I'd think that the flat moveable flap, or a tapered thin one as described above would be better than one incorporated in a classic airfoil shape. I think that Al found this to be true in his famous experiments.

SK





Offline George

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #82 on: November 04, 2010, 09:40:23 AM »
...Or same question for Bobby James 'A Bomb' that won Stunt and 3rd in A speed in 55?

David

Darn, now you have me interested in Bobby Jones' A-Bomb (MAN 5506), though that "Fireball" canopy might be hard to come by!

Got a new K&B Green Head .23 that could go in it (Don't have the K&B .19).

So many planes....  :-\

I'm surprised noone mentioned what a pita it is to cover a polywog wing...or is it just me?

George
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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #83 on: November 04, 2010, 10:55:43 AM »
The A--Bomb-

Polywog airfoil apparent in first image. Last Pic is of it flying off the old Cleveland circles. That's a fiction, of course, but it makes a nice background for Dave E's safety column in our newsletter.

Edit: corrected typo.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 01:54:34 PM by Serge_Krauss »

Offline W.D. Roland

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2010, 11:15:26 AM »
Sorry bout that George, I have been told I instigate trouble! LL~ LL~ LL~

Thanks for the plan image upload Serge, I tried the copy I had but apparently was saved in wrong format or the wrong magick smoke flavor. Silly black boxes.
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Online Dennis Toth

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2010, 07:28:05 PM »
SK,
I agree with what you say about the section performance. What I was getting at with the Smoothie section was referring to ads for the kit (I believe on the Brodak site there is an explanation that Bob Palmer told John about the Smoothie section - he had two version one with the kit section (~40% high point and one with a high point at 25%, Bob liked the 25% most conditions except high wind). To get back to the Chief, someone out there should have a copy of the ads for the Chief (original and second version). When this plane was in its prime CL was a serious competitive business. The designer might not be on involved with the sales ads (except for flying and winning contests). Truth in advertising was not the rule and ads were all trying to have an edge to get you to buy the kit, a gimmick, not anything that was all right or wrong just something to get attention. So that's what would be interesting to see what was the sales pitch in the ads.

Best,              DennisT

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: The why behind Hi's Polywog airfoil.
« Reply #86 on: November 04, 2010, 09:33:22 PM »
Yeah, I remember the discussion over at SSWF about the Brodak kit vs. what was shown in the Air Trails article by Bob Palmer (8/52? 'also had the Roy Clough slotted saucer, which I built and loved). I have it up on the shelf, just out of reach here. Anyway, that section has its thickest point way back and a sharper nose radius. I think Bob mentioned using and preferring the NACA 0018, which is thickest at about 30% chord, but that point would be further forward on the part with widest flaps, when the flaps are included in the chord, as they should be. I don't know whether he changed the ribbed sections toward the tips. "Windy weather stunter" was a phrase I do remember though, for the "Smoothie". The good old days of adventure in design! The"Chief" was heavily advertised, and many were built around Elkhart, where I grew up. Many seemed to be in Army colors and were done well. Unfortunately, I was too young know much about its wing sections and heard no talk about them.

SK


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