The Pits

[Scott B. Riese]

I’m bringing this up because of the number of flyers we have at Delta Park flying. People are pitting and keeping their flight boxes on the edge of the circle. This has become a concerned of mine. If they were where to be a problem with the pitter where would he go? He would have to steep over flight boxes and planes. With eight or more people flying, everyone seems to put all of their flight boxes together. There’s no room for ere.
So what do we do? First read the rulebook for guidelines. There should be at least a 10’ (I think the rule book say’s 20’) buffer between the circle and the closest plane or flight box. The holder of the plane needs to remove all of the equipment from the circle after the launch. I know I’m going to hear static back at the field…. However, I’m just looking out after all of us. This just needed to be said. 

[Howard Rush]

Hey, I brought my box home, so it's no longer in the way.

[Tom Niebuhr]

This has been a concern of mine for umteen years.

No matter how many times you tell people to move the tool boxes. it goes in one ear and out the other.


I have seen so many people hit their own tool box while landing that I stopped counting years ago. Seems like the effort invested in moving a tool box a few feet is less expensive than an airplane.

[Paul Taylor]

Well I guess we are lucky cause we back our cars up to the field and leave most everything in the back of the truck. The only thing I take to the plane is a tach, glow starter, and a leather glove.
Tach, and glow starter go in my pants pocket, glove is thrown behind the plane as I walk behind to tach it.


But I wish I could be part of your problem Scott. I sure miss hanging out with the NWFB gang.

[Bob Reeves]

All our circles are grass and we leave a high grass ring about 6 inches wide at 80 feet. I've never seen anyone leave a flight box or anything else withen the grass ring and as long as the airplane stays withen the 80 foot circle he is pretty safe. The taller grass ring also creates a visible boundary that does a very good job of keeping everyone but the pilot and pit crew off the circle. We have never had to say anything to anybody, it seems that the taller grass ring speaks for itself.

[Gary Anderson]

Hi,
If you're a chartered club, don't you have a safety coordinator? Don't you have club meeting, either at the field or at a gathering to discuss issues? It makes things go a lot better if its come up at meeting or my the safety coordinator. Have a great day, Gary

[Larrys4227]

Simply sounds like a bad habit. If the guilty parties are oldtimers, then its probably engrained  to leaving the box there because they used it as a stooge when they were youngsters. Probably wont matter how many times ya tell 'em .... :-)

FlySafe!  Larry (Larrys4227)

[Scott B. Riese]

Hi,
If you're a chartered club, don't you have a safety coordinator? Don't you have club meeting, either at the field or at a gathering to discuss issues? It makes things go a lot better if its come up at meeting or my the safety coordinator. Have a great day, Gary

Gary So Right!
However deaf ears prevail.
I believe posting here will get out a heads up. Most of the flyer's are sport flyer's with good intentions and good people. I'M NOT POINTING FINGERS GUYS. This was not my attention all. It's been brought up several times at the field. NOW with some of us getting into NW Sport Racing, it's time to say...hold on guy's time out! Lets be safe...please.

[Bill Hodges]

All I take to the circle is my chicken stick and glow starter.  After starting the engine, I put those in my back pocket.  Nothing left at all.

Bill Hodges

[peabody]

There is a LOT of stupidity displayed in the pits....and getting worse as we age and become less "quick moving"...

I see the launcher leisurely picking up the starting gear and walking away at a snails pace....and frequently, instead of retreating directly from the launch area, they walk tangent to the circle!

I've seen planes hit starting boxes....scarier is when they hit people!

We send a safety letter to all new members and the same to the general membership annually....

Common sense!

[Matt Colan]

There is a LOT of stupidity displayed in the pits....and getting worse as we age and become less "quick moving"...

I see the launcher leisurely picking up the starting gear and walking away at a snails pace....and frequently, instead of retreating directly from the launch area, they walk tangent to the circle!

I've seen planes hit starting boxes....scarier is when they hit people!

We send a safety letter to all new members and the same to the general membership annually....

Common sense!

Whenever I launch my grandfather, I quickly run back and pick up the starter, chicken stick, the kneeler, and sometimes the fuel, put it by the flight box that is outside the circle.  then I walk around the circle making sure I don't into the crop circle (I call it that because if you out of my bathroom on the second floor, it looks exactly like a crop circle) and watch his flight from a judges standpoint.

[John Stiles]

Some of the fields I've been to have trees and picnic tables....but then....everyone complains that there's not enough shade....popups are the way to go; BYO Ts and Cs

[Randy Ryan]

All I take to the circle is my chicken stick and glow starter.  After starting the engine, I put those in my back pocket.  Nothing left at all.

Bill Hodges

I do basically the same thing but not with a clucker stick.

We had a situation at a local contest several years back where a flyer had laid out his lines and model in the circle while another flew. As CD I asked him to move to the pits for his prep and on-deck practice flight. He said they did this all the time at their home field and never had a problem. I explained that this was a contest and that the safety of the contestants was both mandated in the rule book and that I was to enforce it. He packed up and left. I would do the same today, safety and the legal ramifications of ignoring the "book" are really much bigger issues then most give consideration to. The potential for injury and the legal actions that would likely follow are more then enough to motivate me to enforce the safety guidlines stringently.

[john e. holliday]

At the circle I fly at now, we have sort of a pit area.  The planes and lines are lined up.  That is how we keep track of who's next.  Of course the most we've had was maybe 4 fllyers.  If the pit box is moved to the circle to start the plane that is going up, who ever starts the engine moves every thing back from the circle a safe distance.

Now racing is a different ball game if we have 2 or 3 planes on the circle flying.  The book states where the pitting circle is.  The plane is supposed to be inside of the circle when taking off or landing.  If the pilot moves out too far and hits a pit box it is his fault, not the pit man,  As a pit man I try to keep the box out far enough that my plane will miss it while I catch the plane. 

I agree that for stunt/sport flying all equipment should be back from the circle far enough that if the pilot does not stay in the center circle, he will not hit anything.  Of course that was the demise of the Flite Streak Trainer.  I let James wander too far at the school field.  DOC Holliday

[Lauri Malila]

 Hi.

 I have allways wondered why some people need so much tools and stuff along when they only have to start an engine and fly. I have only the glow battery. If that's not enough, maybe it would be better to practise the start procedured elsewhere first.
 That brings up another question. Is it just me or does someone else too find it annoying when some people start connecting lines, filling the fuel tank and priming the engine once entered the circle? It's OK if you are flying alone or there is not much people waiting but during practise in bigger contests it's not very polite to fellow fliers. L

[Scott B. Riese]

What about the guy that brings three(or more) planes and hooks all of the lines up and complanes that there's no room. YES we have one! 

The pits are for one think only. Keeping the plane safe and out of harms way.
"No running of engines" is one thing...What are other things?? Lets post em

[john e. holliday]

Well my pit box is the starting battery.  I have used the little Ni-Starters,  I think I left one in the woods up in Iowa a couple of years ago. 

And yes there are those that don't know better that think they can get ready on the circle.  I must admit that I did that once when I got to the circle early and no one was there yet.  I was hooking up the handle when the rest pulled up. 

Also when I was into racing alot, I would try to go out on days when no body was there.  As most racers know, you can't get a setting on the first tank.  But, even at that, if people are there we try to limit the number of pit stops.

Having fun,  DOC Holliday

[Bob Reeves]

Isn't this just all about being courteous.. Doesn't seem to matter to some how they selfishly act, rules or no rules. Sure glad we don't typically have these issues here, I think most do try to do what's right and the jerks are a small minority.

[Randy Ryan]

Isn't this just all about being courteous.. Doesn't seem to matter to some how they selfishly act, rules or no rules. Sure glad we don't typically have these issues here, I think most do try to do what's right and the jerks are a small minority.

You're right Bob, but it only take one to make it unpleasant for a while.

[Richard Entwhistle 823412]

Scott
Now, let's see.  The members of the club, the club to which you no longer belong, flew all fall, winter and spring, three times a week, without a problem.  Not even a close call.  Now that the weather is fair and you are coming to the field, don't you think a personal word to the club fliers would have been better than a public admonishment for what you see as a safety problem?  Are we so dumb that, without the weight of the forum, we would just blow you off? 
For the record, the only two times I have seen a plane hit a flight box or fuel jug, you were either the flier (Seattle) or the launcher (Portland-I was the flier).  Don't do as I do, do as I say?  Why do you love to start controversy?
And, yes, this is a public admonishment.  I'll try to show a little more class in the future.

Richard

[GEOFFREY]

clap!clap! Replied well with good taste

[Scott B. Riese]

WOW. I never intended to point fingers. No names (by me) where addressed. YES we have a problem with the pitting etiquette here in Portland. When a plane is put right on the edge of the circle with the lines, flight boxes something could happen. And I don't want to be that person that fowls up someones plane. We have the same problem at some contests. Lets say McMinnville. I lost a set of lines last year to someone walking through the pits. I was offered $$$ on the spot. NO ..I didn't take the money, we all learned something. There may not be a wrong or right here ...finger pointing... please lets get along. It's one field ,and a lot of people fly at three days a week, sometimes 10 or more. Common sense should be in order. Thank you for your post. 

Your Friend Scott

[Greg Hart]

why do people point fingers ? and or take things so personal . I see these forums as a learning tool to uplift  others and be positive. Scott, thanks for keeping positive among others defensive reply's. Take what we learn and share it to give kindness and growth so others may do the same.

[james dean]

HI Scott,

Thank you for risking the inevitable nasty response to bring to our attention some basic house keeping issues.  You know the devil is in the details, and a little attention to detail at the side of the flight circle will stay off many a regrettable moment later on.

At the moment of launching a plane you don't have that long to get yourself and what ever remains on the flight deck out of the way. 

It seems to me that it is just commonsense to WANT to make sure there is nothing left on that deck after launch.  We should all take it as just an aspect of our hobby and just do it.  We should be thinking safety all the time.

It is just a common awareness that should be taught and encourgaged by all.

 R%%%%I don't know whats wrong when someone like Scott ( Who is a local champion and promoter of the sport)   speaks up and then someone feels it's "their cause" to jump down his throat for taking a commonsense stand on safety.

More love and less attitude is what I say.

Turning and burning and Lovin' it

James Dean

[Mark Hansen]

Hello All,

As a contest director and member of the Control Line Contest Board (for combat) I take safety very seriously.  Here are my reflections regarding this very topic…  Our circle in Portland Oregon is in violation of the AMA Control Line safety code in only one regard--there are Power lines strung up about 60 feet from the paved circle.  By the looks of the poles, my guess is that these were put in after the circle was made, so little can be done about it now, and at no time has there ever been a problem.  With regards to pitting areas at East Delta Park, in Portland Oregon, there really is no problem that I can see (except that lines are tangent to the circle instead of normal.  Not my idea, but that is how it is done).  Virtually every pilot I witness, three to five days a week, will take their flight box, and plane to the circle, while the pit man takes the lines/handle (connected up) out into the center circle (very near the center).  The pilot then fuels the plane and starts the engine.  Once launched, the pit person will remove the box to the grassy area just outside the pavement 15 feet from the pilots circle, and set it safely down.  Pilots not flying store there pit boxes next to their planes, in the pits at least 20 feet from the circle.  I do not see how any of this behavior can create any type of unsafe situation. 

There are several unsafe activates I do regularly witness at Delta Park (having nothing to do with pit boxes, or the pits at all) these are:  Pilots never pull test their planes prior to flying, and with the exception of sun glasses, I do not see any of the stunt flyers wearing safety glasses also there is a complete lack of hearing protection.  Worst of all--most of the pilots walk the twists out of there lines while the poor pit person is holding a running plane!  Further, I cannot think of one occasion where I witnessed the instigator of this thread pull testing his plane prior to practice flying at Delta Park, in the last 15 years! 

Safety is always a topic we should address, but before we question others we should first look at our own behavior.  This will give more credibility to our concerns, and allow us all to lead by example.

[Mark Scarborough]

Mark
you make note of the "instigator" by your observation only,, not pull testing his plane before he flies,, in the interest of fair reporting, do the other pilots that fly there on non contest weekends always pull test theirs,, do YOU always pull test yours. Not to air dirty laundry but it is known that there are issues surrounding this situation that perhaps are best left of a national forum. I think that Scott's inital comments were addressing a situation he felt may be common at more feilds than Delta park hence his attempt to make the sitation known on this forum. However, your thinly veiled finger in his chest is not well taken. You and I have no history of problems, I want to keep it that way, BUT lets be fair about this, I doubt seriously if YOU pull test your planes when you fly on a non contest weekend, so to single him out this way is uncalled for. On a further note, I have seen issues of flight boxes to close to the cirlce, not 15 feet away at Delta park ON a contest weekend it is a legitimat safety concern.
As for walking your lines out while the engien is running, that is an accepted and expected practice when flying PRECISION aerobatics,, the reason being that it is imperative to insure you have your lines clean and straight and walking them out after checkign the clips is normal so that also is an unfair veiled finger at Scott. I like all the guys that fly there, issues between specific members of your club are your issues, but keep them OFF this forum unless you want fingers in your chest too , please,, show some respect. Scott has helped a lot of people in this hobby and to single him out is not called for when there are many many others that do just the same sort of thing.
I also wonder how wise it is for you to make a public statement about your clubs flying site being in known violation of an AMA safety concern on a NATIONAL forum, this acknowledges you, an officer of the club, as knowingly flying in violation of a rule and puts you at a serious liability, not a wise choice my friend,, 

[Scott B. Riese]

I pull my planes all the time. Even Firday with a new All American Don Curry and I pull tested it. I carry a pull tester. Guy's ... it makes me sad that this has gone so far left.
Safety is the issue. I was taught by some heavy hitters in the control line comunity, and one of the first things I was taught... a buffer between the circle and the pitting of the planes. Leo and I asked many times "PLEASE guy's we need room". Never was any intent other then a heads up. It sad that so many think of me as a "instigator"....some one has to look out and teach the new guy's coming up with control line etiquette. I know the most simple of things can be blown way out of context, however, this will soon pass and warmmer weather will bring out smiles. 

[Richard Entwhistle 823412]

To all, 
Please, let's put this post to rest.  Safety should never be marginalized and PUBLIC finger pointing only puts the slow burn into those to whom the finger is pointed.  It is very hard not to want to "kill the messenger" when you have been called out in public.  We have all bent the "rules", whether we know it or not.  Just let OHSA walk through your shop once; I can guarantee you the violation list will be long.  "He said", "he did", and "he didn't do" accusations have no part in this forum, and Robert has made his views of this behavior very clear.  My apologies to Robert and the forum members for my violation of this rule.
Scott, a hands-on, person-to-person, face-to-face explanation of what you see as safety violations would be most welcome at the field anytime this week.  Club members fly three times a week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday, from 9:30 until "to tired to fly anymore".  Hope to see you at the field. 
Richard Entwhistle, President
Northwest Fireballs

[Scott B. Riese]

I'll be at the field Friday Morning (8:30) to practice PA Stunt and to run my NW Sport plane for Saturday. I hope Jim and Mark can come out to help us with the rules and how to pit racing planes. I know nothing of racing. Someone needs to step up and show us beginners   

[Mark Hansen]

Hello Scott,

I will be happy to help all those that need some advice on racing, prior to the contest.  The day of the event, as the event director, I will be forced to be impartial.  Just a little heads up, Richard and I will need to paint the lines on the circle sometime this week, so don't be surprised when this happens.

[john e. holliday]

Hey Scott, a round trip ticket for me and I will teach you all I know about racing and pitting.    LL~DOC Holliday

[Howard Rush]

What's going on Saturday?  I heard about the stunt clinic.  Are there other things happening on the circle?  If so, what's the schedule?

[Mark Hansen]

The basic event is planned to come off this way:

Stunt Judges Clinic, by Don McClave, 9am to Noon.  This is entirely Don's gig so if you have any questions please ask him.  The basics are that Don is trying to teach people how to judge, but if you are a competitor, you may learn something about what the judges are looking for. 

After the Clinic, there will be a NW sport race of some kind.  This is my gig, and I will be running it; probably fly a couple of three up heats, and then a four up final.  My guess is that any pilot/pit crew with some experience, will clean up here, as most of our pilots have no real race experience.  Should be fun to watch.

Hope to see you here in Portland again; I have some very interesting handle designs to discuss with you.

Mark

[Howard Rush]

I'll take my handles.  If somebody needs some arm power in the race, I might be available if I don't carpool with somebody impatient.  Ask Jim Cameron about my whipping prowess.