The mattress and the pea (How light or heavy is your handle?)

[james dean]

Hey guys there was some talk in a recent thread about how much a controlline handle should weigh. It got my attention and I've been thinking about it ever since.

So what do you think, does it really matter how much the handle weighs?  Maybe within a certain weight range?.

I make my own handles and have thought about the weight of the first several handles.  In each new version I have reduced the weight and overall mass of my design.  Even the looks of it have started to improve as well and has gotten some positive attention at the field.

I find that when the airplane comes up to speed on the lines, the weight of my arm and the handle in my hand effectively disappears.  It then becomes an issue of letting my arm relax and letting the pull of the plane do the work as I follow the plane thru the maneuvers.

If the handle is comfortable in my hand I don't even notice the handle anymore.

So, what say you all?


James Dean

[Scott B. Riese]

Jim your a big dude and maybe a little heavy handed. More feel or weight is good for you. I like a light handle. All I want to feel is the pull of the plane. Now as you know I have no feelings in my right hand because of one of my injuries. I must be focused on that pull. If I had a heavy handle it takes away from the finis I'm putting in. Lighter the better for handles is MY way.

[james dean]

Hey Scott! 

It's good to hear from you. That issue with the "Hand feel" is soo real and I agree with you.  Lighter IS better than any of the alternatives.

I weighed my last few "iterations" of my handles and they progress towards lighter and less mass.  My last adjustable faceplate handle weighed 5.25 oz.  The pressant one I'm doing is a hardpoint coming in at 2.85 oz. 

During recent practise sessions I've used these three different handles and the weight of the adjustable faceplate handle is felt more when compared to the lighter ones.   It's not neccessaily a bad feel, just different.

My newest handle has the offset removed and is neutral on the vertical as well as on the horizontal.  I've been finding that "offset" is playing havoc with my inverted portions of the manuevers.

AH well, practice and learn.


Turning and burning with maximum joy

James Dean

[Frank Sheridan]

So what kind of wood is best for a handle? I've got a hyper viper with a carl goldberg style copy made of anigre. It's pretty light. I have lots of wood drop offs from work. A small piece of Ash (2inches thick, 10 feet long) but it's heavy. A piece of straight Maple (nice freckles). Some Walnut (pretty dark) with a little spalted section in it. An experiment combining Wenge and Ash for a chessboard. And finally my favorite, spalted Anigre (but I used it all to make my nutdriver holder!), below it is ablock of Babinga, which is absolutely gorgeous and too heavy, and a piece of Zebrawood (nicey but pricey). What's the standard? Basswood or maybe Birch? Maybe Poplar, I would think, because it's lightweight and takes paint well.

[Randy Powell]

I made a handle out of African baywood (imagine slightly harder, 12 lb balsa with longer grain). The handle is almost weightless. It works fine. I have another made from rosewood. it's a lot heavier. I like it OK, too, but the baywood job is better.

[Howard Rush]

You guys have class.  My handles are balsa around a sheet metal core.  They look like crap. 

[james dean]

Frank,  You could use those awsome exotic hardwoods and it would look like classic furniture and really look great.

But for the price and utility of it I use birch 10 ply in 1/2'. Looks great when finished and is light for the strength of it. It finishes like a laminated wood prop.



Regards,

James Dean

[Mark Scarborough]

I make a core of 1/2" ply, then laminate a chunk of something pretty on it,, the one I made for my stepdaughter was a peice of lacewood, then carved to shape to fit her hand,, mine are usually cherry grips,, of course, it really sucks when you drag your handle across the pavement but ,, well so be it,,

[Scott B. Riese]

Today I made a handle out of blood wood. Nara is a good one also.
One thing I need to learn is how to use a hard point handle. I haven't used one for a long time. Maybe I should give one a try?

[Howard Rush]

Keep an eye on that handle.  Somebody might take it.

[Mark Hansen]

I personally like 3/8 inch African Lace Wood.  At only 50 dollars a linear foot, it is a real steel.  Besides the wide open grain, gives the wood the same natural resonant frequency as the lines and line clips...Boy when you frequency match the wood, to the lines and plane, you get truest feel, and incredible fineness.

[Howard Rush]

I know this man.  He is a combat flier, and he's making fun of us.

[Geoff Goodworth]

Howard

Mark said, 'I personally like 3/8 inch African Lace Wood.  At only 50 dollars a linear foot, it is a real steel.' 

I doubt that African Lace Wood is that hard!

Surely $50 aq linear foot is a real steal. 

Cheers, Geoff

[Geoff Goodworth]

Folks

To get back to the original question, and I don't know how relevant this info is, I have just taken delivery of a couple of straight, unbiased Tom Morris handles from Control Line Central.

My biased Tom Morris handles weigh in at 100 grammes (3.53 ox) and the unbiased are 93 grammes (3.28 oz).

I suspect that when the specific requirements are understood, other designs could come in at lower weights. For me, the handle must be light and comfortable. Beyond that, the precise details of overall size, line spacing and a couple of other factors become personal preference based on the mechanical leverage of the chosen control system.

Cheers, Geoff

[Dennis Adamisin]

Just finishing a new hardpoint handle.   Has a one piece laser cut Stainless core with foam & tape grips.  Feels just right, and it weighs 7 oz.  For comparisons sake, I have a bar-style handle that weighs 4 oz but feels like it is heavier,  in the air it feels like it weighs about 5 lbs.  Have not flown the new hardpoint yet.

I think handles have a CG too.  It is not just a question of how much does it weight but WHERE that weight is.  With my new "heavy" handle all the weight is in the fist, so it is unnoticable.

Howard & Mark: I realized it is offically frowned upon but I suspect my Stainless handle would help, uh, encourage opponents to wear a better grade of hard-hat during combat matches! 

Should come in handy while passing the handle over the flyers head during racing too.  You know where you don't hold the handle quite high enough and it sorta conks and/or scalps the other flyer on the way by - strictly accidental of course...   

[Howard Rush]

I've flown against you Detroit guys.  Chain mail helps.

[Mark Hansen]

You are right as always, Howard...Combat flyers know nothing! 

I was not kidding about the Lace Wood, that's what I make my handles from.  Really pretty and easy to see in the grass.  Also, I don't prescribe to the hard point style handle.  I have seen more maneuvers ruined by a lack of proper neutral than by a 1/16 inch cable.  Just a thought.

One thing is for certain, the time spent on forums like this one, would be better spent practicing.   If a high score is what you are after, that is.

[Dennis Adamisin]

I've flown against you Detroit guys.  Chain mail helps.

"if you ain't cheatin then you ain't TRYIN!"

BTW, didn't you mention flying combat & Rat in Dayton way back when?  There were some serious full contact racing pilots back then!

[john e. holliday]

I don't think anything compares to the old E-Z Just 4 inch handle or even the 5 inch.  Only reason I quite using them is they come apart when they are not supposed to.  I have in my possesion some old Dar-Win metal handles that were used for combat and rat racing.  The other pilots learned to behave when we were using those. 

But, in reality I have not paid that much attention to what handle I was using.  I try to set them up to fly the plane the way I like to fly. 

Also about time spent on forums,  can't paractice in the rain and high wind.  Also have to do womething while the paint sets up on the new planes.  Just sprayed the second coat of primer on them.  DOC Holliday

[Howard Rush]

"BTW, didn't you mention flying combat & Rat in Dayton way back when?  There were some serious full contact racing pilots back then!"


I remember flying in a race there with John Ballard.  "Awright, Rush, I got my hand on your bag."  A couple of laps later: "Now I'm gonna clamp down."  I was laughing too hard to fly.  

That's where I first met your dad.  You folks had a cool racer with a redwood body.  I asked about it, and your dad gave me plans and was very helpful.  

[Howard Rush]

Ah, Darwin handles.  I remember Wayne Meriwether using a Darwin handle.  Chuck Rudner did, too, but it probably has disintegrated from age.

[Dennis Adamisin]

John Ballard was, uh, "fun" to fly against!  Heck of a racing pilot.

What handle was it that had the spike in the bottom.  Ostensibly to stick it in the ground and hold it upright while you started you airplane.  I remember seeing them at some races and the QUICKLY got... "peer pressured" out of the circle!

[Richard Entwhistle 823412]

Howard

Those Darwin handles have evolved into something else.  They don't look like they use to.
I'll build you a good looking handle if I can get your Bio rhythms next week at the stunt clinic.
My hard point handles weigh in at 50g

Richard

[Frank Sheridan]

How's about some pictures of some of these handles? Who would get the stunthanger's worst handle award? Unofficially, of course. Here is a 35 year old E-Z-Just that has crystalized and is crumbling as we speak. The other is a handle made from a piece of 3/4 ply that I got in a box of stuff off of eBay, make or maker unknown.

[Dave Adamisin]

My current fave is an oldy. In the sixties and seventies my dad made all of our handles from a nylon like material. This one is the one Dennis used. Dad gave mine to George A. It has a simple pin into hole adjustment method. It weighs 3.7 oz and is about 0.75" thick back at the thickest part of the grip. The most important design note is that the grip isn't vertical. It's inclined at about 7 deg. This is to even out the movement of your wrist. If you look at the hand grips of guns they all have this feature because your hand rests most naturally at this angle.

[Frank Sheridan]

That's a nice looking handle. I noticed the plastic coated cable is crimped but not stripped where it goes through the ferrules. I always thought that was supposed to be a no - no. Is the handle one piece or its it split in halves and screwed together? I like the angled grip.

[Greg Hart]

Howard,
I'd use a plastic cox handle if I could fly like you.

[Eric Viglione]

I find the overhang more important than the weight of a handle. Be it where the hard point handle attaches the lines, or where the cable exits a cable handle, I think that point is where a lot of a handle's "feel" comes from. For example, bar front handles tend to have a heavier or more loaded feel (to me anyways) compared to hot rock / Kaz / Brodak/ Fancher style.

YMMV
EricV

[Brett Buck]

I find the overhang more important than the weight of a handle. Be it where the hard point handle attaches the lines, or where the cable exits a cable handle, I think that point is where a lot of a handle's "feel" comes from. For example, bar front handles tend to have a heavier or more loaded feel (to me anyways) compared to hot rock / Kaz / Brodak/ Fancher style.

    I pretty much agree, I think the handle should probably be light, but the other parameters matter a lot more. I also much prefer the bare minimum overhang.

     Brett

[Steve Helmick]

When I (uncharacteristically) got two "Ted Handles" put together, I started this thread.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=11758.0

It says they weigh about 60grams (2.1 oz). I think they are a big improvement over either version of the "Tom Handles", which I liked a lot, and which got better when the non-biased ones came out (and slotted bar for infinite adjustments).  It seems that the more your plane pulls, the less the weight would matter, but if it ever gets "questionable", you'll want the lighter handle hooked up right then and there!  Steve

[Brett Buck]

When I (uncharacteristically) got two "Ted Handles" put together, I started this thread.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=11758.0

   Taking up from the other thread, I would recommend "gamma gauze" Tennis racket grip tape. It's just like coarse black medical gauze with something on it that makes it stick to itself. It's very thin and very grippy.

     Brett

[Mike Ferguson]

   Taking up from the other thread, I would recommend "gamma gauze" Tennis racket grip tape. It's just like coarse black medical gauze with something on it that makes it stick to itself. It's very thin and very grippy.

     Brett

Drumstick grip tape works great too.  As do drummers' gloves, if you don't like the idea of putting tape on the handle.

[Randy Powell]

Interestingly, a much cheaper version (a buck and a half a roll) of the grip tape that sticks to itself is 3M Velrap bandaging tape. It's used to wrap horses legs. Comes in many colors and works very well and the dye doesn't come out.

http://www.statelinetack.com/item/3m-vetrap-bandaging-tape/SLT700304%20BLK/

[Dave Adamisin]

That's a nice looking handle. I noticed the plastic coated cable is crimped but not stripped where it goes through the ferrules. I always thought that was supposed to be a no - no. Is the handle one piece or its it split in halves and screwed together? I like the angled grip.

Yes it is crimped. It wasn't stripped so it remained insulated. In Michigan during the summer we have a lot of static electricity in the air especially in the evenings. The insulation stopped the static shocks in the middle of the square eights.... I always hated that..... It is one piece carved to the hand that was using it. It fits Dennis better that me but i don't have mine anymore and Dennis is a REAL good brother.... The angled grip was the ticket. By the way the handles were all pull tested to 100 lbs. We also flew a LOT of rat race with them. There aren't any stunters that pulled as hard as a rat at 160mph. I have the experience to back that up........ We used to fly 1000 lap rat races at the end of the summer and Arch and I would each fly 5 to 7 races each. That was an experience. Along with Jon Ballard I also flew with Kilsdonk, Weaver, Barnhard, and a cast of a thousand others. Luckally I was younger and taller than most of them......

[john e. holliday]

I remember the first time I seen someone holding nothing but cable that used to be a Hot Rock handle.  I beleive it was Ballard of all people.  After that he used a different handle that I beleive was custom made.  Also I can remember the first time I actually heard of Ballard.  It was the Glenview NATS in 1970.  I was still recuperating frome totaling out a tow truck with a Honda 450.  It was an old A-Frame job. 

This was my second NATS and my Brother Bob was my team mate.  We only flew scale race as I had gotten out of rat because no one would fly the high speed planes.  But, back to Ballard, what brought my attention to him was when he was coming out of the circle yelling they couldn't have beaten his time.  He stated that they had to run a half a lap to pit their plane. 

But, back to the original post, I still say any handle will work depending on the individual.  DOC Holliday

[Frank Sheridan]

I was born in Lake Charles, La and volunteered to work at the Nats one year. One of the jobs given to me was as a lap counter. I seem to remember a certain Mr. Ballard who was quite....."Enthousiastic" with regards to racing, particularly during a pitstop when his engine was resistant to his helper's restart technique. As a relaxed weekend sport flier, I was totally unprepared for the adrenalin surge of control line racing. Sorry to get off subject here, but I'll never forget the expression on Ballard's face! Oddly enough, I don't remember what kind of handle he used.