The Long Journey Back

[Andre Ming]

THE LONG JOURNEY BACK

So my journey back to C/L began with a 10+ hour drive time to/from Shawnee KS. (On the outskirts of KC KS.)

It is ironic that my return to C/L commenced with a trip to the Kansas City area. You see, I was born and raised in KC and it was in KC that I learned to fly C/L in 1967. (My previous thinking it was 1966 proved to be incorrect according to my on-going scrapbook/journal I've found.) The KC area was my home until Jan of '69, when my dad got the urge to return to his "Fatherland" and we picked up stakes and moved to Roosterpoot, AR. (Almost Roosterpoot: Abbott, AR, pop less than 100, was actually the "town" we were nearest to!)

My alarm was set for 6 AM, and after gulping down a quick breakfast, I was out the door and on my way by about 6:35 AM yesterday.(Tuesday, Oct 10.)

The first order of business was to meet up with John "Doc" Holliday. I drove straight to his driveway WITHOUT Siri! (I'm amazing!)

Once there, Doc and I went out to his storage shed and Doc retrieved two VERY well built airplanes. (Pic 1) The tree shade I shot the picture in does not do justice to the high sheen on the finish! Doc is an excellent craftsman.

BUT... as if these two airplanes and engines weren't enough, Doc wasn't done yet, he also tossed in what looks like an indestructible 049 stunt/combat trainer, complete with an engine! (Pic 2)

From Doc's we loaded up and headed over to Dave Trible's place so I could meet him. It was great meeting him mano u mano and seeing his immaculate stunt ships. Why, Dave even has some old combat wings downstairs in his workshop!

During the visit at Dave's, Dave pointed out the Fox 35 Stunt that Bob Gieseke had owned that was likely one of the engines I built for Bob's use while at Fox Mfg. In fact, this could be the very engine that Bob used to win the World Championship in 1974! I had to get a picture of Dave and that Stunt! (Pic 3)

Not to be outdone by Doc (I guess?? LOL!), Dave loaded me up with these goodies in pic 4. It was another twist of irony that the surplus kit he gifted me was a Midwest Magician. You see, a Magician was the first "big" airplane I bulit and flew back in my C/L learning period. (The day was filled with irony!) About the two engines: One is a 25 sized engine for slow combat "should I ever decide to compete" and the other is a OS Max 40 "in case I ever want a full size stunt plane", said Dave!

I am convinced that C/L enthusiasts are some of the most giving group of hobbyists out there. I'm talking giving of advice, help and support, along with even giving of themselves and their time and efforts. It's a good hobby filled with a lot of excellent people!

Dave also provided some delicious pulled pork, and I had not seen the tub myself, that BBQ could have passed for premier KC BBQ! Good stuff.

After stuffing myself with BBQ and a very good pasta salad side, imagine my surprise when Dave announced we were going to the flying field (about 10 minutes from Dave and Doc's homes) and he was going to put me up in the air!! (Eegad!! I immediately had visions of unintentionally re-kitting his Buster into a pile of sticks!!)

Once at the field and unloaded, he soon had the Buster purring and I gave him the signal to release.

The take off and level flight went without hitch but whew boy... it didn't take long for the dizziness to creep in! I motioned for Dave to come give me a break, which he did. As soon as Dave took the handle I immediately sqautted down to give my equilibrium time to reset. Soon, I mentioned I was ready for another dose. As soon as the handle passed over my head I began to stand up... only to snag the line with my fool hat!! Quick as a flash: THWUMP! In went his Buster. Sheesh! What a total dweeb I can be!

Thankfully, the airplane was fine and dandy... but the wooden prop didn't survive. (Imagine that.)

He changed props and fired it up again: Off I went to see if I could finish off his Buster. (Or so it seemed!)

This time when I first felt some dizziness coming on, I stopped and did a sloppy loop (which gave pause to help the equilibrium to reset). Ha! It dawned me that I had come full circle. That is, some 56+ years ago I began learning stunts with sloppy loops... and here I am starting all over again doing what else but sloppy loops! More irony!

I did a few more laps then when the dizziness began to be felt again. This time I stopped, and in attempt to outdo my sloppy loop, I performed an equally sloppy figure eight. Rinse and repeat. I figured using this "rotate until dizzy, stop and do an eight" approach, I could get through this flight one way or the other!

While doing yet another of my patented "Sloppy Eights"... at the worst possible place (at the top of the outside loop near the top of the circle!) the engine cut out. Instinct took over and I took off* with the handle... alas... I heard the dork sound before I ever got the lines tight.

* Let me qualify that "took off" comment. Though "took off" sounds as if I burst into action with blazing speed, and actuality I took off as fast as my 71 year old body would allow, which ought to be a few miles per hour faster than a glacier. Looking back, frankly, I'm surprised I didn't fall flat on my face. I'm no spring chicken you know, and I can't remember the last time I tried to run... especially while dizzy! It's a miracle I didn't immediately eat grass and the airplane didn't impale itself into my butt.

Anyway, once again, the silk and Dave's excellent building techniques allowed the Buster to survive my ineptness (sans wooden prop)... but I needed to cut the losses before I found a way to completely destroy Dave's Buster. That was my last attempt. The rest of my return to flying needs to be MY airplanes taking the risk and NOT Dave's!

With that, Dave put up one of his big, nice, stunt airplanes. He felt it wasn't one of his best (which I thought looked and flew excellent), so he used it stay practiced.

I had forgotten how impressive it is to watch National (World?) caliber stunt flying. No wonder they call it "Precision Aerobatics". The precision involved is just amazing.

I tried to snap a couple pics as Dave flew the pattern, but I'm no Elwyn Aud (he was SO good at model flying photography!), so this is the best it gets. (See pics 5 and 6.)

It was a great trip, filled with so many ironic situations. It was nice being back in the Shawnee area of KC. Oh, and another Irony: As a lad I lived in Johnson County near where Doc and Dave currently live! (This would have been from about 12/59 - 11/62.) In fact, as an 8-9 year old kid, I used to ride my bicycle down to the little hobby shop that was on the town square to spend about .65 cents on Guillows stick n' tissue kits! (I remember building a Spitfire, a Chipmunk, and another one or two that are lost to memory. One summer I would save my allowance, and when I had sufficient funds, I would peddle down with my saved allowance money... buy a kit... struggle to get it assembled... then peddle down to repeat the process!)

Anyway, this "Return" trip was a very enjoyable experience, and I sincerely thank Doc and Dave for their hospitality as well as their unselfish generosity. Pic 7: Two very talented and unselfish C/L enthusiasts: Doc and David at the flying field. Doc is holding my Demon as a pic for posterity's sake.

C/L has a great group of guys (and gals?) involved with it.

All fer now!


Andre "I'll be back" Ming

[Dave_Trible]

Andre we enjoyed having you visit Stunt Central.  You are welcome any time.

Dave

[Andre Ming]

Thanks Dave.

Are you a regular at the Tulsa Stunt Meet?


All:

Got the first Red Head up and running. (See pic below!)

Also ran my 36 Sport plain bearing that I intend to use on a future sport plane. (Likely a profile Flite Streak.)

Out of time today. I intend to tackle the other Red Head tomorrow. I may also run the 35X "stroker" engine that's currently on the nose of the Demon.


AND...

After decades, I've reconnected with a lad that's a few years younger than I. We were both regulars at the Fort Smith flying field back in 1970. His late dad was also a C/L flier. (Which is why "Young Son" was a C/L flier!) I've not pushed him about returning to flying, but I am certainly enjoying chatting with him and wiping the dust off all the decades. He, too, has very fond memories of flying "back then". I think it's been decades since Young Son has flown C/L. It would be super cool if he would get back into C/L and I could have a flying bud from way back then.

As for other Fort Smith fliers: I'm sure there's a very real possibility that those fliers significantly older than I have passed, or if one or two are still with us, I've lost touch with them.

Andre

[john e. holliday]

Andre, it was great having you visit.  Most of all was watching a 70 plus man be a kid again.

[Andre Ming]

Andre, it was great having you visit.  Most of all was watching a 70 plus man be a kid again.

C/L flying is like me riding one of my vintage dirt bikes: I feel like a kid again.

Shame the body doesn't get the memo.

 


erdnA

[john e. holliday]

Well the wife and family don't think I can handle a motor bike.

[Dave_Trible]

Well the wife and family don't think I can handle a motor bike.

[Andre Ming]

Still re-supplying!

Just ordered a twist-on McDaniel Ni-Cad ignition battery w/charging system along with an extra McDaniel battery so I can always have a back up.

Also ordered 6 APC 9x6 sport props.

Working a deal for some Sig-ment.

Picked up two new syringes today down at Co-op.


AND...

Got the Flite Streak reassembled and ready to fly.

Next on that front is to fabricate a tail hook stooge for it, possibly tomorrow.


Still ahead...

Eventually I'll need a building board. (No hurry.) I plan to use a piece of 1/2" A/C birch plywood to make one about 14" x 42". Underneath it will be framed with 1x2's. I'll be looking for a cork board of some type to apply to the top so it will easily take T pins pressed into it. I had built one just like I described some years ago... but like a doofus I tossed it when I was convinced I was done with C/L.


The journey back continues!

All fer now!


Andre

[Ken Culbertson]

A TIP - Frame the building board with angle iron. Wood warps!

Ken

[Andre Ming]

I'm sure you're right. For the previous board I used the 1x2's on edge, which made it more warp resistant. In the 7 years I had it, it was always stored within the house and I didn't notice any warping. However, I'm sure metal would be better.

To avoid weight, I could be interested in either L angle aluminum, or aluminum channel. However, where to source locally will need to be addressed.

I reckon I'll figure out something when I get to that phase.

Andre

[John Rist]

If you have a table saw you can do what I did.  Edge cut plywood is straight and does not warp.  See the first part of the following for my details.  By the way I used 3/4 " (Actual: 0.688 in. x 48 in. x 96 in.  From Home Depot)  I had Home Depot do some of the original cuts.  There cuts are very straight.  See the first part of:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/starting-to-build-a-59-ares-brodak-kit/

For my build story.

PS cut 1 and cut 2 in my cut diagram was done by Home Depot.  The whole thing is held together with countersunk screws.

[Andre Ming]

AND...

Just closed a deal on 7 unopened 4 oz tubes of Sig-ment at $6 each. Given my (lack) of airplane productivity... that ought to last my remaining lifetime! (Just received the tracking # for the shipment.)

OH...

...and I've scrounged up enough materials to fabricate a ground launch (planes w/landing gear) stooge.

Life is good!

 

Andre

[Andre Ming]

If you have a table saw you can do what I did.  Edge cut plywood is straight and does not warp.  See the first part of the following for my details.  By the way I used 3/4 " (Actual: 0.688 in. x 48 in. x 96 in.  From Home Depot)  I had Home Depot do some of the original cuts.  There cuts are very straight.  See the first part of:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/gettin-all-amp'ed-up!/starting-to-build-a-59-ares-brodak-kit/

For my build story.

PS cut 1 and cut 2 in my cut diagram was done by Home Depot.  The whole thing is held together with countersunk screws.

Excellent build, John!

You built the "Deluxe" version of a building board!

I'll be building the compact "Putz Builder's" version. 

I only need a board big enough to accommodate vintage combat wings and sport planes with a basic 36" spar length. Compact is a given. (So it can be stored on end in the closet when not in use.) I'll be shooting for a board about 42" long and about 14" wide.

Wow. After seven years of zilch C/L activity in me, here I am talking another building board, building a stooge today... possibly trying to fly this weekend. How things change.


Downside: Stored my Monocote up in the attic over the summer. Think it's ruined?


Andre

[john e. holliday]

If your MonKote has not been opened it should be okay.  I have Monokote decages old that is still usable.  By the way the Flite Streaks are not Mono Kote.  It is DOC paper and clear mylar  with heat sensitive glue already on it.

[Andre Ming]

Hi Doc!

Yes, I figured that was not Monocote. Looked like "flite span" heavy tissue as a base.


All:

Mission accomplished. See pics...

It's too windy today to risk my first unassisted flying session. However, I "think" all things are ready for my first unassisted flying session within the next couple of days. Depends on what the weather (wind) does. I really don't need to deal with the complication a 12+ MPH wind would add to the "experience". 

Andre

[Dan McEntee]

Hi Doc!

Yes, I figured that was not Monocote. Looked like "flite span" heavy tissue as a base.


All:

Mission accomplished. See pics...

It's too windy today to risk my first unassisted flying session. However, I "think" all things are ready for my first unassisted flying session within the next couple of days. Depends on what the weather (wind) does. I really don't need to deal with the complication a 12+ MPH wind would add to the "experience". 

Andre

    Do not underestimate the ability of that wire to vibrate out when you are half way out to the handle!! Been there, done that, had the cuts in my hands from trying to fly a control line model with one line in each hand, and then had to repair the model after the unavoidable crash!!. Another upright on the inboard side, a good spring and some wheel collars to limit the pull length and you are in business!  You might have to sacrifice another coat hanger to make a longer hook if necessary!  But this looks like it will do the job for what you want to do.

  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Andre Ming]

Dan:

I've looked at that and wondered about that, too.

I think I can make it where it can't vibrate out with some careful tweaks of the wire so it takes some pressure to pull it out.

I fix'er up!

Andre

[john e. holliday]

You naad to devise a spring that will keep the wire in place.  Even as a kid I had my stooge spring loaded.  Looking at it, just mount another block of wood to mount the spring.  Not that hard.

By the way I hope you have some spikes to put into the ground to hold that thing.   Especially on grass.

[Ken Culbertson]

What John said.  I have had several very unsophisticated stooges. All had some form of spring or bungie chord.  The best one was my little brother.   Might prop up the front about 2" to give you some wheel clearance when you hit the end.

Ken

[Andre Ming]

Thanks for the "bewares" Doc and Ken!

I think I can use one of the inner tube rubber bands I keep on hand (for use on my trail motorcycles) to maintain tension on the release rod. (Said rubber bands work great for rubber-banding things to the handlebars/etc.)

I can take along a brick to prop up the nose of the stooge and tomorrow I'll get some tent stakes so I can anchor it to the ground by running stakes through the holes I'll drill in it tomorrow.

With y'alls help we'll make this work. 


Andre

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

My stooge has no spring.  Just a slight bend in the wire to add some resistance.

Peter

[Andre Ming]

Starting to receive my orders.

Arriving today from Radical RC:

1/2 dozen APC 9x6 props (for the Flite Streak and any sport type profile plane I build.)

The McDaniel 1.5v twist on ignition battery w/charger.

Unfortunately, though charged for it, the extra McDaniel 1.5v twist on ignition battery was not in the box. I've already contacted Radical RC via email to correct the oversight.

Several other items still in transit.

Went motorcycle riding with Wild Child the wife today... so other than the arrival of the Radical RC shipment, no "Journey Back" progress to report. IF this wind will lay we've been having for the past several days, I will be able to try to get the Flite Streak up in the air using my newly fabricated stooge.

All fer now!

Andre

[Andre Ming]

Essentially NO wind today. Fantastic day. After lunch I will be loading up and attempting my first solo (no helper) flying session.

I've added a tension mechanism to my simplistic stooge comprising of two rubber bands cut from a bicycle inner tube. This applies pressure to the release rod to prevent it from vibrating out. See pic.

My stuff is gathered up, and I'm essentially ready to load and head for the field.

First tank will only be 2 oz worth of fuel. If I'm unsuccessful with consecutive eights (stopping to do them to allow my equilibrium to reset)... I'll be hard pressed to run that out in level flight without falling over from dizziness!

Fingers crossed this will go okay.

Andre

[Paul Smith]

Don't go cheap.  Use a coil spring in compression and nail it down good.

It's easy enough to assemble an SLD (Self Launching Device) with some RC nose wheel bearings, 1/8" piano wire and wheel collars.

As second line of defense, stake the safety thong to the ground so worst case will be nosing over and stopping the engine.

[john e. holliday]

Your set up is no good in my opinion.  You need another block of wood for the launch pin(rod).  Compression spring or rubber band to keep pin in place.  Also the anchor of the plane should be between the two blocks away from yuou and short enough that when you pull the the launch cord the pin will clear the outboard block and still be in the middle block.  You should have inspected mine a little closer.  And as Paul stated anchor yor handle so the if it releases early down elevator will cause plane to nose over hopefully stopping the engine.   Hope you see this in time.

[Andre Ming]

Well fella's. We've all got to start somewhere. Doc: Yes, I added a tension device on the release rod as per above.

This stooge is temporary until I see what I've got. In the past I've successfully used even more rudimentary stooges. This one will suffice for today. This one will receive static testing w/engine running before any launch attempts. If I'm not satisfied with its performance, then I will address any issues.

However, if I like its basic concept and performance, then I will make it more "permanent" and add refinements. (Bushings, adjustable side stop for the wheels, etc.)

Absolutely: Screwdriver in the ground and rigged so the down line gets tension if an inadvertent launch takes place. (Saw that concept illustrated recently in a thread "somewhere" and immediately saw the benefit in so doing.)

Andre

[Ken Culbertson]

Well fella's. We've all got to start somewhere. Doc: Yes, I added a tension device on the release rod as per above.

Andre:  PLEASE don't use that stooge as it is.  The wire may/will pull the rubber band into the hole and lock it up.  The picture below is almost identical to the one I used on grass years ago.  You need one more block.  I was a cheap kid so I used rubber bands.  Change them every so often, sun and exhaust will weaken them.  You need 2 wheel collars.  One is shown the other is on the same wire to hold the pull wire from going completely through the first block.  It can go behine either block 2 or 3.  I prefer 3. Adjust the other one to allow you to pull the wire completely through the space between 1 and 2 but not all the way through 2.  "B" needs to = "A". Couple of screwdrivers and you are good for any size plane.  If you go Big, keep in mind that a large stunt motor/engine puts out 5-10lbs of thrust. 

This is pretty similar to some of the others suggested.  I just use rubber bands because I normally don't have any springs laying around.  As a side note, I would narrow the gap between 1 and 2 a bit.  I don't like long pulls to release but that is personal.  What you have is fine.

Ken

[Andre Ming]

Ken:

I see what you're saying. I think I may have some more 1x2 cutoffs and can make that modification. I don't have any wheel collars on hand, though.


Flying Session...

While setting up my stuff out at a corner of property across from our rural airport, a white pick up truck pulled out onto the field (that's by the airport) where I was and stopped. The driver politely asked me what I had going on. Turns out he's the Airport Manager.

I explained that I was going to try to fly my control line airplane and was hoping that doing so out here by the airport would be okay. I quickly pointed out the lines and explained said lines are 60' long thus the airplane is completely captive. He'd never seen such before, only R/C.

Note: RC used to be allowed at the airport (I've flown my R/C trainer there along with other R.C fliers), but as we all know, things change. Being able to fly R/C at the airport came to an end for some reason.

Anyway, he couldn't stay to watch, but gave his blessing for my use of that portion of airport property. Whew!! That turned out well!

See the pic to see my "new" flying field.

The above is the Good News.


The Bad News...

So the McCoy ran great on my test stand set-up w/my clunk tank I use. I had cleaned removed and cleaned the installed hard tank and vents using 91% propranolol. I figured at the time, I should be all set to boogie.

After 45 minutes of burning off primes but not being able to get it to take a needle setting I figured it wasn't just me not being familiar with McCoy Redheads. I then thought surely I have crud in the spray bar (forgot to install the fuel filter), so I removed the needle and flushed.

Tried some more. No change. At this point I turned my attention to the tank, and I was verifying that all tubes were clear of obstruction... I noticed that it appears the tank could be seeping. Upon that, I folded up camp and came to the house. I will attend to that when I get the oomph and have available time.

Okay... give me a break before you bust my chops. It's been DECADES since I've messed with hard tanks. ALL of my flying has been with bladder pressure. (Even my speed limit combat planes.) The way I was sloshing/squirting 91% propranolol around when cleaning the tank, it never dawned on me to check for leaks.

Anyway, I will get to it and figure out where the seepage is taking place and if I have the needed soldering skills to correct it. If I chicken out then I'll be pestering you guys (and others!) for tank options.


SO, my first attempt at unassisted flying didn't turn out as I'd hoped... BUT... at least I didn't crash!!

 

erdnA

[john e. holliday]

Here I just ran that in the back yard with no problems.  The cleaning must have loosened something.  Hope you get it right.

[Andre Ming]

Here I just ran that in the back yard with no problems.  The cleaning must have loosened something.  Hope you get it right.

Stuff like this happens!

Well, IF the tank is truly the issue, I'll figure it out and find a way to address it. Frankly, messing with a hard tank again is making me feel like a total neophyte. It's been forever since I've tried a hard tank. In fact, I can't even remember the last time I tried to use a hard tank! SO, it could be me!

First thing in the morning is I've got to change out the front/rear tires on Wild Child's motorcycle. That finished, I can get serious about trying to find out what I've missed or what I am doing wrong.

I'm anxious to get the airplane into the air. It looks straight as an arrow and ought to fly really nice.

I guess it's like one of those sports movies when the goin' gets tough and the Team Captain, or the Coach starts yelling "Well? How BAD do you want it? HOW BAD DO YOU WANT IT!!"   


Andre

[Ken Culbertson]

Andre:
I have run a bunch of McCoys "back in the day".  May sound silly but I ran most of them on pressure.  I think it was the upper left (from the rear) backplate screw hole opens into the case.  We put a pressure fitting in it.  What you are experiencing is characteristic of the McCoy.  Does it have a stock NVA and/or a venturi insert?  Most of ours had no insert and stock NVA under pressure because we flew them a lot in slow combat.  They ran like crap in the air without the insert off of pressure.  How does it draw fuel on a choke?  Will it pull it all the way to the NVA and hold it there if you release the choke?  I never liked that "smoke stack" venturi.  Any leaks in the NVA or misalignment of the spray bar and you have what you are experiencing.  Some have tried a ST NVA to restrict the size some. I never did.  I am not much on engine tampering. Maybe some of this thread may help:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/mccoy-35-venturi-question/msg648710/#msg648710

Ken

An after thought.  Is the backplate gasket in good shape?  Loose screws, especially the upper left can cause it to leak pressure.  If I remember right the backplate on the McCoy is a rather lose fit and relies heavily on the gasket, but it has been a LONG time so I may have that confused.

[Andre Ming]

Okay, just had a few minutes free so I could piddle with the tank, so I dug out the removed tank from the Flite Streak and upon further investigation, it appears a seam has let go. It's beyond my scope to fix it.

SO...

I then clumbed up in the attic an' dug around and found the three tanks pictured. All three hold air pressure. Whatever tank I chose will need to be flushed to insure any residual goop is cleared out.

It's been so long since I've worked with hard tanks I've forgotten most of the "givens n' druthers" of doing so.

Here's the question: Of the three, which would you chose and why?

I'm inclined toward the middle "Profile" tank, and a C/L friend agrees, but I would also be interested in hearing experiences using any of the above pictured tank types for future reference.

Thanks!

[Andre Ming]

You can rule out the tank on the right. It's too long. Won't fit between the leading edge and engine.

EDIT:

I just hit Brodak's site and thankfully there's a good selection of profile type tanks that are in stock. SO, while we're at it, what's the concept of a "Uni-Flow Profile" tank versus and plain ol' "Profile" tank and why does that option exist?

[Dan McEntee]

   All three will "work" to some extent but the type of run will vary. The first GRW tank will give you a slow combat type run that you remember. The engine will have to pull the fuel against centrifugal force and may lean out a bit in the air. You will get the same effect on the tank on the right, a standard vented wedge. It will tend to lean out towards the end of the flight anyway. The one in the middle, an old Veco I think, might be your best choice if the GRW tank gives problems. Of the middle tank and the wedge, cap the overflow, and then put a short length of fuel line with a angle cut on one end on the fill/vent line, with the angle cut facing forward. That will kill "chimney effect" when the engine is running  and prop blast goes over the fill tube, creating a little negative pressure in the tank. The angle tube will add a bit of pressure to the tank. The GRW looks like it has a cap over the over flow, and the open tube is the fill/uniflow vent, if it is a uniflow. Some testing may be needed.
   But that's why they call it a hobby!!
    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Dan McEntee]

You can rule out the tank on the right. It's too long. Won't fit between the leading edge and engine.

     I was going to mention that, but forgot. I wonder why they even made that tank!! Very few profiles back then had long enough noses!!  Later on, they put the pick up tube coming out of the top or the bottom of the tank body to help with that issue. Again, too bad you don't live down the street. I could fix that other tank in a jiffy!

  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Andre Ming]

Thanks Dan for your input.

As I recall... I purchased that Chicken Hopper back in the early 1990s because I was getting into super slow combat with some regional friends that flew then. That thing was supposed to be the hot ticket. SO, onto a Fox powered foamie it went. Worked great until time to go overhead... then it would loose draw and the engine would die stone dead. No "burp"... flat out die.

I guess what I'm saying is that for now, I will use the center tank.

Now, once you guys school me on better options offered by Brodak, I shall purchase accordingly and remove this one and install the new tank.

That is UNLESS my current profile tank runs fine and dandy through maneuvers! Then I'll save my $$ for a new tank when another profile sport plane joins the squadron.

[Robert Whitley]

Before you beat yourself up too much over possible tank issues try some different fuel.
I had similar frustrations early this season with poor starting and inconsistent crappy runs.
I opened a different gallon of fuel and all those problems magically went away.

[john e. holliday]

Mow the old DOC is awake and thinking about it clearly.  I just ran those engines before I gave the planes to him.   I have never had trouble starting an engine even with a leaky tank.  In fact the first Ringmaster marathon I had a tank tube come loose.  After driving 70 Plus miles I was going to get a flight in or else.  Found a peice of wood that I pushed into the now open tank vent hole and fuel the tank and flew a couple of short flights before the wood fell out.  Yes it could be the fuel.  Try it at home before going to the field.

[Andre Ming]

Mow the old DOC is awake and thinking about it clearly.  I just ran those engines before I gave the planes to him.   I have never had trouble starting an engine even with a leaky tank.  In fact the first Ringmaster marathon I had a tank tube come loose.  After driving 70 Plus miles I was going to get a flight in or else.  Found a peice of wood that I pushed into the now open tank vent hole and fuel the tank and flew a couple of short flights before the wood fell out.  Yes it could be the fuel.  Try it at home before going to the field.

Doc, I have no doubt in my mind that fuel system and motor combo on that airplane worked fine when you last ran them.

Stuff happens. I'm thrilled to have these airplanes and engines and I thank you again for gifting them to me!

Andre

[Andre Ming]

Update:

So I took the old profile tank I have on hand that I intend to use and filled it half full with 91% alcohol. Capped off the vents and vigorously shook it for a spell. Took a syringe and hooked it to the fuel delivery tube to draw out the dirty alcohol. Nothing but vacuum suction!

Yup. The fuel delivery brass tubing was plugged solid, likely from congealed castor.

Found a strip of brass that I use for other projects... and ran it down the tube and rooted it back/forth for a bit.

Put the 91% back into the tank, capped of the vents and put the syringe onto the delivery tube and drew through it. Bingo! Alcohol came through it!

I flushed the delivery tube as well as the tank, and then drew all the alcohol back out. I think the tank is ready to be mounted.

Hoping to get the tank mounted today or tomorrow and test run the entire system out in the back yard. If it's appears good to go... I may try again Saturday morning to get myself up in the air.

The Journey Back: Inch by inch it's a cinch!

[Andre Ming]

Before you beat yourself up too much over possible tank issues try some different fuel.
I had similar frustrations early this season with poor starting and inconsistent crappy runs.
I opened a different gallon of fuel and all those problems magically went away.

I can try another jug of fuel, but the fuel I was using at the flying field was the same fuel I used on the test stand and the Redhead started and ran fine with it. (Sounded surprisingly strong, actually.)

[Andre Ming]

Did you ever wonder if a goal, in this my return to flying, is just snake bit and maybe it's not meant to be?

So I went to Tru-Value hardware and came home with a pack of very small screw-in hooks. I intend to use them to mount the tank w/rubber bands. Small piddly project. Ought to have it done in maybe 10-15 minutes, right?

I marked my locations and pre-drilled a .040" hole. Started the screw hook by hand a then switched over to small pliers to twist in the remaining short length.

It snapped.

Seriously.

A 1/16" diameter screw being inserted into a pre-drilled hole in wood... and it snapped.

Tried a .060" pre-drilled hole. Same result. Broke off flush.

In exasperation, I put down the items, turned off the light, and locked the door behind me.

However, the upside is, China was able to make it cheaper than what it could have been made here in the USA. I'm sure thankful for that.   

[Dan McEntee]

Update:

So I took the old profile tank I have on hand that I intend to use and filled it half full with 91% alcohol. Capped off the vents and vigorously shook it for a spell. Took a syringe and hooked it to the fuel delivery tube to draw out the dirty alcohol. Nothing but vacuum suction!

Yup. The fuel delivery brass tubing was plugged solid, likely from congealed castor.

Found a strip of brass that I use for other projects... and ran it down the tube and rooted it back/forth for a bit.

Put the 91% back into the tank, capped of the vents and put the syringe onto the delivery tube and drew through it. Bingo! Alcohol came through it!

I flushed the delivery tube as well as the tank, and then drew all the alcohol back out. I think the tank is ready to be mounted.

Hoping to get the tank mounted today or tomorrow and test run the entire system out in the back yard. If it's appears good to go... I may try again Saturday morning to get myself up in the air.

The Journey Back: Inch by inch it's a cinch!

       Be prepared for the possibility of some stuff being shook loose when you run the engine. I'm sure you run fuel filters. The vibration from the engine acts like an alcohol powered ultrasonic cleaner! I purchased the late Mike Gretz's Fierce Arrow from his estate and just had to fly it a few times. Mike built the 4 ounce tank into the fuselage and I can't remove it to clean or check it out. I ran the engine about three times on easy does it flights before the fuel filter I installed plugged up with rust. Still wanting to fly it some more, I filled the tank with white vinegar and let it sit for a few days, then pushed that out and flushed with some alcohol. I ran it on the ground for a few tanks of fuel and it ran well until the filter plugged up again. I kept this up for about 5 tanks of fuel, and when the filter started to stay clean is when I felt comfortable in flying patterns with the model. There is YouTube video of it on line.  I just didn't want to have to cut into the fuselage, so I found another way. I eventually decided to purchase a Harbor Freight Ultrasonic cleaner for cleaning engines, parts and such. It's big enough that I think I can put a tank filled with white vinegar into the tank that is filled with water and see if that gets me the same results on a tank by itself. I can make tanks all day long. But with our suppliers all leaving the market I thought it would be handy to know if this works or not. If 15 to 30 minutes in a ultrasonic cleaner will do the job , I can't make a tank that fast. I don't see a problem with cleaning and servicing a used tank if it will do the job I need it to do. Think how many tanks there are laying in junk barrels and drawers!!
    Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

[Dan McEntee]

Did you ever wonder if a goal, in this my return to flying, is just snake bit and maybe it's not meant to be?

So I went to Tru-Value hardware and came home with a pack of very small screw-in hooks. I intend to use them to mount the tank w/rubber bands. Small piddly project. Ought to have it done in maybe 10-15 minutes, right?

I marked my locations and pre-drilled a .040" hole. Started the screw hook by hand a then switched over to small pliers to twist in the remaining short length.

It snapped.

Seriously.

A 1/16" diameter screw being inserted into a pre-drilled hole in wood... and it snapped.

Tried a .060" pre-drilled hole. Same result. Broke off flush.

In exasperation, I put down the items, turned off the light, and locked the door behind me.

However, the upside is, China was able to make it cheaper than what it could have been made here in the USA. I'm sure thankful for that.   

      Were they brass? I never buy anything like this in brass any more because it's not what you think it is!! I think some of this stuff is die cast. On some profile models, if I have a pretty good idea where the tank will mount, I dill a hole all the way through big enough for coat hanger wire. Two in front and two in back, with about 1/8" space above and below the tank. Then I make a U shaped piece of coat hanger to go from top to bottom hole, with "legs" long enough to stick out the tank side about an inch to inch and a half. The coat hanger wire is soft enough to bend up into a hook and still stiff enough not to straighten out. File the end that are exposed a bit to remove burs that will cut rubber bands. You could slide some old fuel line over the wire also. These are easily removeable if needed. And it you want just a dab of glue or silicone at the hole will hold them in place.
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[john e. holliday]

I thouht I had hooks holding the tank in place.  I have a stash of phillips head screws about an 1 1/2 inches long, 4-40 that I bend the screw head over to make a hook.  Drill where I am going to mount tank and I run the screws in to the fuselage.  Rubber bands from craft store or hobby shop.  Guess I should have shown you some of my set ups while you were here.  But, Really I thought you would just hook up lines and fly.  I have planes that have been hanging for a year or so that I just pull them off the hook and go fly .  Sometimes I don't even dust them off.  Most trouble is engine my be a little still from the oil I use.  Take the Combat Streakm out and fly it with out doing any thing to it.  As I said I ran both planes on the ground to make sure they would run and had no problems.

[Andre Ming]

Dan:

The screw hooks were bright plated (cadmium type) not brass plated. If I can find a coat hanger small enough I may go that route. Otherwise I plan on riding my little '75 DT125 down to the hardware store and selecting a bit larger screw hook and hopefully a different brand... but it will still be made in China. Or, I may go to Ollie's Lbr Co first to see if I can source a better quality screw hook.



Doc:

The issue isn't your fault. Don't fret about it!

As for the hooks: Indeed you did have hooks installed. However, my replacement tank is the taller "profile" type so it wouldn't fit between the existing hooks.



All:

I'll get this sorted out. However, it IS getting to become important that I get an airplane into the air ASAP. The last thing I need right now is to allow the desire to fly C/L to again go dormant. Need some gratification.

All fer now!

Andre

[Ken Culbertson]

Andre - I have used Doc's method on most of my profiles.  Never much liked those double wedge or hopper tanks much.  The Parabolic wedge is the best IMHO but you do have to have one that fits.  Make sure when you put the wires through that you fill the holes with silicone or that nasty exhaust will find a way to gas soak the nose.  Take lots of rubber bands too.  Nitro melts them pretty quick.  The McCoy drawing fuel now?

Ken

[Andre Ming]

Hi Ken!

You said:

Never much liked those double wedge or hopper tanks much.

And I for sure remember not getting good service out of the Chicken Hopper. I can't recall what the profile-style tank was on, or how it performed, or if it was ever used!

The Parabolic wedge is the best IMHO but you do have to have one that fits.

 

And of course, which I don't. (Have one that fits, that is.) I'll wait and see what I have with the profile-style tank.

Make sure when you put the wires through that you fill the holes with silicone or that nasty exhaust will find a way to gas soak the nose.  Take lots of rubber bands too.  Nitro melts them pretty quick.

I intend to use rubber bands I've cut from motorcycle inner tubes. I think those are lot more robust than office supply type rubber bands. Remains to be seen how fuel resistant they are. Suspect they're better at that, too.

The McCoy drawing fuel now?

It drew fuel fine on my clunk tank equipped test stand. I trust it will be fine with the profile tank, but I will leave nothing assumed this time. The airplane w/new tank will get fired up out in the back yard and then hoisted at different angles while running to check for attitudes that cause a burp/etc. I will also be placing a fuel filter inline to catch any rubbish from the long-stored tank that didn't get loosened/flushed with my alcohol rinse today.

All fer now!

Andre

[Andre Ming]

Yesterday was not a good day for the goal of returning to C/L flying. Lots of frustrations and ultimately unsuccessful.

HOWEVER...

As of today I'm now 95% sure that all of my Fox "Dukes Fuel" in plastic jugs is too old to run properly. Too much nitro and/or methanol has lost its volatility. Not only was it hard to start, but after setting for a fast four stroke (with some 2s breaks)... when the battery was removed it would go slobbery four stroke and often die. Just not enough "hot" left in the fuel to ignite as it should. SO, it looks like about 25-30 years is the shelf life for Fox Duke's Fuel in plastic jugs. Imagine that.

Today I tried the what remained of a pint of leftover Sig fuel that was was only about 8-10 years old. Using my test stand, I first ran my 36 Sport and it fired right up. Next was a 35 Stunt that yesterday would NOT start on the old Duke's Fuel... it too, fired right up, never lost an RPM when the battery was removed, and held a needle.

Encouraged, I mounting my 36 Sport to the Flite Streak and filled the profile tank. Within about 30-40 seconds I had it running and the needle set and it drew the fuel down to the pick up tube.

I now need to make a decision on fuel and get some headed my way. I was going to go with Rich's Brew because I can essentially get a Duke's Fuel blend (10% nitro and pure castor oil), but the horror stories I've read here about Rich's Brew's customer service has me shying away from that.

Browsing the fuel at Brodak, I didn't see a Dukes Fuel type blend, and it appears the fuel Brodak sells uses a castor/synthetic blend, which I'm not too keen on.

So, I need to do some more research, then make a decision and get some fresh fuel headed my way, but at long last I think I'm headed in the right direction.

Looks like those that suspected the fuel were right.

All fer now! 

Andre

[Dan McEntee]

    Hi Andre;

    Knowing that you participate in the vintage dirt bike festivities, is there a vendor in your area that carries VP fuel products?? VP Fuels has a product that comes in 5 gallon cans that is a 50/50 mix of methanol and nitro. You use that as a base, and then add as much methanol and oil as you need for the blend you want. It's been discussed here on the main forum a few times in recent history and a few guys mix their own that way. That saves some time and expense of sourcing nitro, it's already in the mix. You could mix your own Dukes Fuel, and as you go along, add the old fuel you have a quart at a time to a "good" gallon and nothing goes to waste. I did that with all the questionable fuel I had on hand during the pandemic lay off in 2020 that was going to be used for weed killer along the fence! I burned at least 4 or 5 gallons of it that way, as I was going to Buder Park and our super secret flying spot 3 to 4 times a week at that time!! I did not have any issues with the sour fuel tainting the goo fuel. If what you have is Dukes Fuel 10% all castor, that would be easy to duplicate and the old stuff would blend right in.  As fuel gets harder to acquire, I'm going to look hard at that option myself.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee