The Imitation (UPDATED - NOW TAKING ORDERS FOR KITS)

[Mike Griffin]

Who is currently kitting Ted Fancher's Imitation?  Thank you

Mike

[Alexey Gorbunov]

May be you? If you need help for 3D design - ask me.

[Randy Cuberly]

Who is currently kitting Ted Fancher's Imitation?  Thank you

Mike

I could be wrong but I haven't heard of anyone kitting it for a long, long time.  Maybe Ted will chime in!

If you're considering it, I'm sure there would be some interest!

Randy Cuberly

[Brent Williams]

UltraHobby (Steve Moon) was probably the last outfit that kitted the Imitation, starting back in '03.  Unfortunately, I believe his laser cutting vendor is no longer providing those services.  Steve sells his nicely redrawn plans for the Imitation and many other planes.  His version has the stab cut from flat material as opposed to the thick airfoil on the original plan.  I attached a couple of low-res pictures of both plans.

I have read that all of the UltraHobby laser cut kits were very well done.  Bob Hunt has foam wings available for the Imitation. 

Time for you and Eric to fire up the lasers!

[Mike Griffin]

I had a very nice conversation today with Ted Fancher about the possibly producing a laser cut kit of the Imitation.   Ted was very positive about producing a kit of the model and offered any help he could give during the process.  Eric Rule at RSM would do the CAD work and cut the kits for me if this project goes forward as I hope it does.

What I want to make sure of before I proceed with producing a kit is that no one is currently producing the kit because the last thing I want to do is cause any hard feelings or duplicate efforts.  I am not aware of anyone currently producing the kit and there seems to be sufficient interest to go ahead with the project.

Eric and I have had some discussions about creating a CAD file from which to cut the kit and this can be done as soon as I pull the trigger and give the go ahead.

So please give me your input on this and if you would like to own a kit of the Imitation please post and let me know.  If there is sufficient interest, I will get with Eric and produce the kit.

Thank you all very much

Mike Griffin

[Allan Perret]

I'm in on this one..

[Mike Griffin]

Thank you Allan

Mike

[Bill Morell]

Interesting bell crank shown on that plan!

[Roger Vizioli]

I'm interested in this one.
If produced, what is approximate availability date?
Roger Vizioli

[Mike Griffin]

I'm interested in this one.
If produced, what is approximate availability date?
Roger Vizioli

Hi Roger

I really have no idea yet on availability.   There is a lot to be done before we start cutting kits.  I have to get with Eric Rule and go over the plans and get the model into a CAD file.  Then he has to cut a prototype and I have to build that to make sure everything fits right.  All this takes quite  a bit of time and if we run into glitches in the test build that could take more time.  From start to finish when producing a new kit it takes a good amount of time.  Plus we have the holidays coming up.  At best I would think after the first of the year sometime.  I wish I could be more definite about a release date but there are a lot of variables to consider.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

Interesting bell crank shown on that plan!

Maybe Ted will answer why he used that type of bellcrank on the orginal model.  We will use a RSM Carbon Fiber bellcrank for the kit. 

Mike

[Walter Hicks]

Mike count me in on this one please.

[Dane Martin]

Color me in

[Mike Griffin]

From the input I am getting it looks like I will be getting with Eric next week and start preliminary planning to get the process going of producing the kit.  Please keep the input coming and I will get started on what I have to do.  Thank you all very much.

Mike

[Jim Oliver]

Mike,
Just what I need----another kit to add to the stack
Save one for me.

Jim

[Bootlegger]

 I too would like one, do you have a price yet?  Thanks, Gil

[ray copeland]

Mike, add me to the list! 

[Mike Griffin]

I too would like one, do you have a price yet?  Thanks, Gil

Not as of yet Gil.  Will let you know as soon as I know.

Mike

[Roger Vizioli]

Hi Roger

I really have no idea yet on availability.   There is a lot to be done before we start cutting kits.  I have to get with Eric Rule and go over the plans and get the model into a CAD file.  Then he has to cut a prototype and I have to build that to make sure everything fits right.  All this takes quite  a bit of time and if we run into glitches in the test build that could take more time.  From start to finish when producing a new kit it takes a good amount of time.  Plus we have the holidays coming up.  At best I would think after the first of the year sometime.  I wish I could be more definite about a release date but there are a lot of variables to consider.

Mike

Mike, thx, I understand the process and timelines for getting to the "Build a prototype" task.
Pls keep us informed.
Roger V.

[Mike Griffin]

HI Mike. Plans mailed at 1:15 pm today. You should get them Friday or Saturday. Set one aside for me.  I'm going to push three of my guys to buy one as well.

Thank you Ty and I certainly will.   

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

Here are a couple of photos I had in my picture album I had of the Imitation.  I do not know whose models these are but they are pretty.

Mike

[Brent Williams]

Mike, your second picture is "THE Imitation."  Ted Fancher's original plane. 
Here are some additional pictures of that plane.

[Mike Griffin]

Mike, your second picture is "THE Imitation."  Ted Fancher's original plane. 
Here are some additional pictures of that plane.

Thank you Brent.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

Everyone who said they wanted a kit in the above thread has been added to the list.  I will get with you all later as it gets closer to finishing the kits as far as shipping addresses etc.  Thank you very much for supporting this effort

Mike

[Larry Fruits]

Mike,
 I am considering a kit, however I have a few questions.

 Would this be a full kit or a short kit, or an option for either one?

 Would the kit have the thick stabilizer as originally designed, or the thinner stabilizer as modified by the Moon's?

Thanks;
  Larry

[Mike Griffin]

Mike,
 I am considering a kit, however I have a few questions.

 Would this be a full kit or a short kit, or an option for either one?

 Would the kit have the thick stabilizer as originally designed, or the thinner stabilizer as modified by the Moon's?

Thanks;
  Larry

Hi Larry,

Honestly, I have not gotten that far into the process yet but it is not a problem to do either one.  I can always list it as a short kit with with options but I am not to that point yet.  Usually I like to keep things a simple as I can but listing additional options or add ons for a kit is not a problem.  I want to keep this kit as cost effective and affordable as possible.

As far as the stab thickness goes, I have had a brief conversation with Ted and Eric about this and we have not made a decision yet.  Eric tells me that we may be able to make it a builder option and include material in the kit to build it either way.  That may be an option.

These are all good questions and we are taking these and others into consideration.  As we progress through the CAD files and design, these factors will be addressed and I will let everyone know before the kit is released.  I can tell you for sure that we will NOT use the round bellcrank that Ted showed on the original plan.  It will be a 4" Carbon fiber suspended bellcrank  and mount. 

Thank you for the input.

Mike

[Larry Fruits]

Hi Larry,

Honestly, I have not gotten that far into the process yet but it is not a problem to do either one.  I can always list it as a short kit with with options but I am not to that point yet.  Usually I like to keep things a simple as I can but listing additional options or add ons for a kit is not a problem.  I want to keep this kit as cost effective and affordable as possible.

As far as the stab thickness goes, I have had a brief conversation with Ted and Eric about this and we have not made a decision yet.  Eric tells me that we may be able to make it a builder option and include material in the kit to build it either way.  That may be an option.

These are all good questions and we are taking these and others into consideration.  As we progress through the CAD files and design, these factors will be addressed and I will let everyone know before the kit is released.  I can tell you for sure that we will NOT use the round bellcrank that Ted showed on the original plan.  It will be a 4" Carbon fiber suspended bellcrank  and mount. 

Thank you for the input.
=========================================================================================

 Thanks Mike for your reply to my questions.

 Larry

[Allan Perret]

Hey Mikey:  I told you this one would be a winner.  You should get ahold of Ted's construction article and include a copy in the kits..

[Gerald Schamp]

Changed my mind Mike, can't do it. Gerald

[Brett Buck]

I know nothing about the details of the kit, however, the Imitation is the basis of almost *all* the West Coast designs, and many others (acknowledged or not). Almost everything we have done since 1979 (me included even though I didn't live here then) is based on trying to replicate the flying qualities of the Imitation in a full-fuselage design, with varying degrees of success - the Thundergazer being the closest to the original in most relevant characteristics.

   Brett

[Steve Helmick]

The profile fuselage in Ted's original plan doesn't look at all rigid aft of the wing. Yet, the design is legendary for flying ability. This is perplexing to me. Anybody else?  Steve

[Mike Griffin]

Hi Mike,

Even though I have at least 3 projects under way, this is one plane I've always wanted. Eric cut me a set of ribs awhile back, I think they are from Pat Johnston's files, but that is all he had at that time. They match the drawings (root and tip) from the plans. Anyhow, I want one when you get to going on it.

Thank you Gerald.  You are on the list

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

UltraHobby (Steve Moon) was probably the last outfit that kitted the Imitation, starting back in '03.  Unfortunately, I believe his laser cutting vendor is no longer providing those services.  Steve sells his nicely redrawn plans for the Imitation and many other planes.  His version has the stab cut from flat material as opposed to the thick airfoil on the original plan.  I attached a couple of low-res pictures of both plans.

I have read that all of the UltraHobby laser cut kits were very well done.  Bob Hunt has foam wings available for the Imitation. 

Time for you and Eric to fire up the lasers!

Thank you Brent.  WE are in the process of starting the CAD files.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

Mike count me in on this one please.

I have you down for one.  Thank you Walter

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

Mike count me in on this one please.

I have you down for one Walter.  Thank you

[Mike Griffin]

Color me in

I have you down for a kit Dane. Thank you
Mike

[Mike Griffin]

Mike,
Just what I need----another kit to add to the stack
Save one for me.

Jim

I have you down for a kit Jim.  Thank you
Mike

[Mike Griffin]

HI Mike. Plans mailed at 1:15 pm today. You should get them Friday or Saturday. Set one aside for me.  I'm going to push three of my guys to buy one as well.

Thank you Ty.  I have you down for a kit

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

Mike, add me to the list!

Thank you Ray.   I have you down for a kit

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

I too would like one, do you have a price yet?  Thanks, Gil

Thank you Gil.  Ihave you down for a kit.

Mike

[Brett Buck]

The profile fuselage in Ted's original plan doesn't look at all rigid aft of the wing. Yet, the design is legendary for flying ability. This is perplexing to me. Anybody else?  Steve

  DO NOT, repeat DO NOT, cut out the aft fuselage as it shows (optionally) on the plans.

    Brett

[Ted Fancher]

Just wanted to say thanks to Mike for taking on this project, I'm sure he'll do his usual good job.  We've had some preliminary chats about the Imitation, it's history and design considerations and discussed a handful of ways to adapt it to general use rather than as the "flying test bed" mission of the prototype.  For those interested in building one when Mike makes them available I urge you to get on the AMA website, search for and read the two part article on the ship in the Sept and Oct 1979 issues of Model Aviation magazine. (I know, I know.  That sounds really "old" but I think you'll find an Imitation flies really "new" when it comes to our "tricks".)  In any case, I think those of you with an interest in stunt design will find the discussion of the various experiments for which the design was intended to be of interest.  Of my several designs I believe the Imitation was the easiest of all to fly easily and accurately time after time.

As Brett was kind enough to point out, the Imitation had a significant impact on the the west coast stunt community immediately after its publication in Model Aviation, one that has carried over and influenced a number of successful subsequent designs, many of them full fuse versions of the underlying Imitation "numbers".  Those ships often utilized the fuselage of the later Excitation design (with only modest relocation of the wing suggested by the greater taper ratio and swept forward flap hinge line of the Excitation wing compared to the Imitation.  My own Citation V which won the 1986 Nats was pretty much one of those full fuse Imitations under its fancy paint job.

Good luck to Mike with this project.  I hope many will give the "Imitation" a chance to be their "real" thing.

[Ted Fancher]

  DO NOT, repeat DO NOT, cut out the aft fuselage as it shows (optionally) on the plans.

    Brett

As usual, Brett is absolutely right (as was Steve in his query). 

This was already the subject of a discussion between Mike and me.  This aspect will either be restructured to provide some semblance of rigidity or (most likely) be eliminated entirely. The fact that today's engines are generally a couple or more ounces heavier and thus (as was proven when the thing got in the air) the need for aggressive weight saving in the tail was...and will continue to be...a non issue.  Even with the extra weight of an Enya .46 four stroke up front the tail weight box was never employed.

In my defense, when designing and drawing the plan I had some concern over the longer than the "norm at the time" tail moment arm and tried to cover my butt three ways...first and second by lightening the aft fuse while also including a tail weight box.  This apparent dichotomy was intended to be of use when testing motors of different weights, etc.  The primary way of doing so was always intended to be the three firewall "spacers" which could be added between the 1/4" ply fuse firewall and the "RC style" engine mount to accommodate engines of varying weights while maintaining a "flight proven" optimum  CG.  The use of those spacers, by the way, was in itself a "flight test" gimmick in that I was of the opinion that what we so often call "nose moment" was not a significant factor in pattern performance and that a nose should be simply long enough to achieve the optimum CG without adding dead weight to get it there. To the best of my recollection any adjustments necessary to achieve the desired CG were always accomplished by selecting an appropriate spacer.

[gene poremba]

 Mike i'd like to be added to your list for a kit. Thank you.....Gene Poremba

[Mike Griffin]

Mike i'd like to be added to your list for a kit. Thank you.....Gene Poremba

Thank you Gene.  I have you down for a kit

Mike

[tom brightbill]

Hey Mike,
Sure, add me to the list.
Cheers,
Tom

[Dave Royer]

I don't want to be left out Mike so please add me to the list too.

[Mike Griffin]

Hey Mike,
Sure, add me to the list.
Cheers,
Tom

Thank you Tom.  I have added you to the list

 Mike

[Brett Buck]

In my defense, when designing and drawing the plan I had some concern over the longer than the "norm at the time" tail moment arm and tried to cover my butt three ways...first and second by lightening the aft fuse while also including a tail weight box.

   Nothing to defend, the damn thing flew great regardless. However, it *was* coming up on 40 years ago (sorry...) and I think we have learned a few more things since.    This would be an absolutely ideal project for a relatively simple vacuum-bag experiment, vacuum-bagging 6 ounce/square yard carbon fiber woven cloth on both sides of the fuse. Might add about an ounce and a half but much, much stiffer. As noted, almost any engine you might want to put on it is likely to be heavier than an ST and the nose can't be much shorter and still contain the fuel tank, so I don't think it would be an issue.

      Again, hard to argue with the result, but if I was going to do it now (and I might) I would also use the same sort of tail I have on the Infinity, relatively thin, airfoiled, 67/33 and about 4.5:1. As luck would have it, I have the cores to such a tail that appear to be excess to my needs. Maybe I will call it a "profile Thundergazer."

     I would additionally note that almost anything you might want to put on it will be more powerful and effective than an ST46, too and in general use less fuel.  I would be inclined to use an AAC 40VF, now that such a thing is possible.

      Brett

[Mike Griffin]

I don't want to be left out Mike so please add me to the list too.

I have added you to the list.  Thank you Dave

Mike