stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Scott Richlen on April 26, 2018, 06:31:09 AM
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What would you say is the greatest stunt ship never published? There have to be dozens of deserving stunt ships that have never made the limelight!
Maybe they flew locally but never made it to the Nats. Maybe they made it to the Nats but the designer only had the plans on brown wrapping paper. For instance, that was the situation for the USA-1 until Tiahart (spelling?) got with Werwage and drew up the plans. How many more are out there like this?
Why do you think that a particular plane should be published? If you have a picture of your nomination, please post it! Any history? Let's hear that as well!
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Actually, that could happen now that we have a bunch of CAD guys volunteering to draw up the plans (am I supposed to still use the word "draw"?)
And thanks for the nomination, now it won't look self-serving for me to publish the SL-3. (If anyone complains, I'll just blame you! ;D )
But I do have to ask, what other planes would you nominate Bob? I'm interested in your perspective. Also, I'm thinking about a P-51 that a certain Mike Palko flies like nobodies business.....
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They have these types of threads over at the RC Classics forum and they are SOOO MUCH FUN!! Great photos start to emerge and tall tales of the "good old days" before Turnaround. #^
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I’d love to see Paul Walker’s Bad News design published. I think reading how that evolved into the Impact would be interesting.
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"Bad News" has always been one of my favorites. It just had "the look".
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glad I am not the only one hooked on the Bad News. was lucky enough to see the Famous wind flight
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Ski Dombrowski's "Lace Maker"
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Ski Dombrowski's "Lace Maker"
Ditto!
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Ryan's Eagle.
Bob Hunt design with some of Buddy Weider's "preferences".
Pictures, Bob ?
Frank
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Brett’s Infinity
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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How about some of the mid fifties Daly I-Beam designs from the Strathmoor club in Detroit like Jim Ebejers Neptune and Rod Pharis and his Jupiter. Art Pawloskis' Atom was published in MAN some time ago but not his earlier Globe with the pre Daly sheeted Nobler style wing construction. Roland McDonalds Strathmoor was published with a sheeted wing and not the I-Beam which I recall it having. Jim, Rod, and Art all won Jr and Sr. at the Nationals and Roland seemed to always end up second in Open. The I-beam, although not new, was still a "Secret" item back years ago.
Don Boka.
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Weren't some of these early I-Beamers in Flying Models years ago? However, I don't recall which ones.
I had never heard of the Globe before. Any pictures?
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I'm not sure what "published" means here, but if we're speaking of magazine articles as in the old days, then how about another classic, for which I have had plans for a while: Mario Rondinelli's "Venus." There is a photo of Australian Nats classic winners, one of which is a nice "Venus," but I can't find it. As I recall, this is a Nobler derivative with a nice airfoil, elliptical wing, and specially contoured fuselage..
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I remember seeing Rondinelli's Venus many years ago in American Modeler and thinking that it was a really nice-looking airplane. But sadly, there wasn't much accompanying information. So, how did it fly? Did it ever place in any contests? Who was Mario Rondinelli and what was he like? Was this his one great "build" or were there more?
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Hi Scott.
To the best of my knowledge the only I-beamer that appeared was Arts' Atom, I built the model shown for the MAN article. The original was not exactly presentable at the time of publication and had been painted a different color as well.
Again, Rollands' Strathmoor was presented in Air Trails I think but not sure about the magazine. However the original I-beam construction was not shown . These stunters were sheet and block, usually Berry Brothers butyrate over nitrate, a bit over 500 sq. inches, large flaps with not too much travel and a bit of swept forward trailing edges. Earlier ones weighed around 50 ounces and later around 37, 39 ounces. power was of course Fox 35 with a healthy addition of nitro, popular props were the original Y&O 10/5. Except Rod in the Top Flight ad! Right Rod? I do not believe I have any pictures of the Globe which was red and yellow, bubble canopy, fuse landing gear with wheel pants and the tail stinger that was popular on these airplanes.
Don Boka.
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Ditto!
Yeah Me too for the Lace Maker! What a gorgeous airplane!. I tend to doubt, however that very many people would actually want to attempt to build one! Worse than a big stick and tissue model to construct!
Anyone know how well it actually flew?
Randy Cuberly
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Was there a I-beamer called the "Louisiana Lightning" back in the day ? was it ever published & who was the builder ?? ???
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I would also like to see Brett's Infinity published, or at least I would like to have plans for it!
It's obviously been a very successful and long lived design!
It deserves some recognition in print and ink for posterities sake if no other! C'mon Brett! Give it up!
Randy Cuberly
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There was a fellow from the Philadelphia area who built something called the "Conquistador" (sp).
I met him years ago but can't recall the name.
Bob Z.
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PW's Predator plans with option for IC power would be cool. y1 Steve
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I would also like to see Brett's Infinity published, or at least I would like to have plans for it!
It's obviously been a very successful and long lived design!
It deserves some recognition in print and ink for posterities sake if no other! C'mon Brett! Give it up!
I have some very nice CAD plans by Jack Pitcher, just needs a few tweaks, but I have sort of lost any momentum on the project. A few copies have gotten out, and most of them fly pretty much like I wanted, so they must be pretty close.
Brett
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I remember seeing Rondinelli's Venus many years ago in American Modeler and thinking that it was a really nice-looking airplane. But sadly, there wasn't much accompanying information. So, how did it fly? Did it ever place in any contests? Who was Mario Rondinelli and what was he like? Was this his one great "build" or were there more?
Rondinelli was second at the 64 Nats. The design has appeared several times at VSC. I am not sure where or who the plans came from.
Keith
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There was a fellow from the Philadelphia area who built something called the "Conquistador" (sp).
I met him years ago but can't recall the name.
Bob Z.
Bob,
You may be talking about something else. However, there have been two designs published with the name "Conquistador". The El Conquistador by Clair Sieverling in American Modeler, March 58 was a straight wing, tapered flap design. The Conquistador by Thorton Hoffman was in Model airplane news, August 1958 was a very attractive design with an elliptical wing and tail, inverted engine, bubble canopy. In my opinion, this is one of the more attractive designs from that era.
Keith
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Putting this one in the mix Bob "Champione" Lampione's PM classic, which to my knowledge
this PM version was never published.
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Was there a I-beamer called the "Louisiana Lightning" back in the day ? was it ever published & who was the builder ?? ???
That was one of Windy Urtnowski’s planes that he built in 1986 (along with “Relentless”). It’s a “Big Jim” Greenaway Bee-Jay design with a Cardinal look to it (although it precedes the original Cardinal by two years).
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Randy:
I saw the Lacemaker fly at one of the Chickopee (sp?) Massachusetts Nats. I think it flew okay but remembered it as being a bit "swoopy" in the corners (if that makes sense). Not sure that that wasn't just how Ski flew it. He was a good pilot but not one of the top flyers. I'd bet that it would fly pretty much representative of the pilot's ability that was flying it.
I saw it during appearance points up close and thought is was stunning. Dombrowski was a master builder. He came to Eastern Shore contest either last year or the year before but was not flying. I think he said that he still had it. I wish he'd build another one.
Scott
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Ron:
That PM of Lampiones is the prettiest PM that I've seen!
By the way, Al Reed still has his PM and it is in pristine condition. He's another one of these guys that we keep trying to get to show up at the flying field. He's busy with other stuff.
Scott
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Ron:
That PM of Lampiones is the prettiest PM that I've seen!
By the way, Al Reed still has his PM and it is in pristine condition. He's another one of these guys that we keep trying to get to show up at the flying field. He's busy with other stuff.
Scott
Hey Scott,
The thread starter was best looking unpublished, the 'Lacemaker' I know wasn't published HB~>
Bob's PM also came to mind, though there is / was a plan of sorts not published that I'm aware of
I was fortunate enough to get a copy many years ago from a very nice guy on the East Coast,
don't wish to blow my trumpet about the plan as it has a few big names on it :o get my drift
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That was one of Windy Urtnowski’s planes that he built in 1986 (along with “Relentless”). It’s a “Big Jim” Greenaway Bee-Jay design with a Cardinal look to it (although it precedes the original Cardinal by two years).
Mike you should be with NCIS) ........its all coming back now I think I saw the "Louisiana Lightning" on
one of Windy's old videos during a gallery shot scene.
Thank you might have to chase up some old 'Bee- Jay' material.
Ron
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Pat Johnston's ringmaster 576 and 526, the Shark 560 and 610 and Wildcat. My P-39, Tennessee Hound Dog, The "Nomad" series, to name a few. Don Hutchinson's war bird series.
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Gordan Delaney's Heinz-57.
Fantastic looking classic legal plane. The orange plane was built by Gordan and the cream colored plane was built by Ray Firkins.
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Putting this one in the mix Bob "Champione" Lampione's PM classic, which to my knowledge
this PM version was never published.
I own this plane thanks to my Bro Jose Modesto. Has a genuine Big Jim ST 60 Red Hemi Head motor. Needed trimming to get to rock, but flies nice. It is REALLY REALLY BIG!!!
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Bob it’s neat to see that picture of Les’ Tropicaire. He was polishing that rascal in the work hanger at the Nats when I first met him. Really pretty! Milton that airplane- isn’t that the one Jose brought to the Team Trials last year? Not to compete but test fly. I think I launched it once. It looked like it was flying well.
Dave
BTW Bob- what about Gene’s Air Boss? Anything exist of it? I know it came apart in the air at the Nats in practice. Hardest turning thing I ever saw. It just couldn’t stand up to it forever.
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Back to my nominee, the Ryan's Eagle. Bud Weider built three and I built one. Bud placed in the Top Ten at the NATS and won Expert at Brodaks with his. (sure wish I could fly like him). His is no doubt the "bench mark " example.
Mine got the Concours Award at an event this past summer.
Mine "borrowed" his trim scheme with some color variation. Did that to honor my friend, Ryan Weider. I also widened the fuse, shifted the canopy, pinched the nose, added gills to the cowl, and a few other subtleties .
Mine is NX 29614. I'll post a pic of Buddy's next.
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Here's Buddy's
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Another shot with pilot , Buddy Weider .
C'MON BACK , BUD !!!!
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Can I nominate another ?
Bob Hunt's Crossfire; in particular the "Drop- nose " variant.
Pics from builders ?
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I'm getting carried away with all of this. Darn near forgot the one and only constructed "JD FALCON II". The late John D'Ottavio , a.k.a. "Mr. Stunt" , penciled that one for me Fall 1968. I still have his aged and faint side profile drawing on poster paper and a rib template.
Check out the little picture insert alongside my name in the upper left . That's it at the 69 Navy NATs, Willow Grove , Pa. ( Credit to Shultzie - God rest).
I lost it on the reverse wingover during very high winds -smack into the tarmac at Mitchell Field, Long Island , NY Contest( Fall 1969).
Hope to someday do another...
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I remember seeing Rondinelli's Venus many years ago in American Modeler and thinking that it was a really nice-looking airplane. But sadly, there wasn't much accompanying information. So, how did it fly? Did it ever place in any contests? Who was Mario Rondinelli and what was he like? Was this his one great "build" or were there more?
Scott -
I believe this excerpt from Jerry Worth's M.A.N. (2/69) article is worth (no pun) reading. Mario did place high at the Nats, and I believe he won some other competitions. Jerry Worth was impressed enough that he redesigned his "Mirage" to incorporate his version of the "Venus" wing and liked the performance of both planes. I've included the scanned excerpt and plans from his article. My "Venus" plans are nicely drawn by someone who signed them "JLW" (I'm thinking Jerry Worth, based on the article) and were sent to me by Canadian modeler Dennis, who might comment here, if he wants. As I wrote, there was a nice one that placed high recently in Australia's version of Classic, but I haven't had time to go through my files to find the internet photo.
Edit: My plans are the Jerry Worth drawings, and I found a letter from Mario to Alan Ressinger describing the model.Correspondence describes color, design philosophy, and limits of the plans' dimensions.
SK
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My P-39, Tennessee Hound Dog, The "Nomad" series
Perry:
Do you have pictures of any of these? What's their competition record?
Thanks,
Scott
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I've been told that there are programs that can examine a photo that was taken at any given angle, and if only one dimension on the photo is a known one, then the rest of the dimensions can be extrapolated. Perhaps this may be an acceptable way to reclaim some of these great, non-published designs
Anybody in the stunt community with this capability? At least with some of the classic ships, if we knew that they used a Nobler wing we could probably recreate them from a few photos.
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Yep, Keith, it was Thornton Hoffman. I met him many years ago. He was a close friend on a fellow club member, Phil Sam.
It was rumored (not confirmed!) that after his passing, the original model that he still had in his house mysteriously disappeared.
True? Who knows. Who will ever know?
Bob Z.
Bob,
You may be talking about something else. However, there have been two designs published with the name "Conquistador". The El Conquistador by Clair Sieverling in American Modeler, March 58 was a straight wing, tapered flap design. The Conquistador by Thorton Hoffman was in Model airplane news, August 1958 was a very attractive design with an elliptical wing and tail, inverted engine, bubble canopy. In my opinion, this is one of the more attractive designs from that era.
Keith
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I'm not sure what "published" means here, but if we're speaking of magazine articles as in the old days, then how about another classic, for which I have had plans for a while: Mario Rondinelli's "Venus." There is a photo of Australian Nats classic winners, one of which is a nice "Venus," but I can't find it. As I recall, this is a Nobler derivative with a nice airfoil, elliptical wing, and specially contoured fuselage..
Peter White Plans has the “Venus” plan available......and many others!
https://sites.google.com/site/fullcircleflyers/home/plans
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Bob Hunt's original OPS 40 Piped Crossfire. Or one of the many Ted Fancher planes (like the "Temptation")
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Hi Eliott:
Thanks for the "vote." Attached here is a B&W photo of that Crossfire.
Later - Bob
Stunning plane
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20 + years later. flies like nothing other!
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Ski Dombrowski's "Lace Maker"
I remember seeing this airplane at some of the East Coast contests back in the day. It was amazing, the pictures don't do it justice.
Did Ski just get tired of stunt and quit the hobby?
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Yeah Me too for the Lace Maker! What a gorgeous airplane!. I tend to doubt, however that very many people would actually want to attempt to build one! Worse than a big stick and tissue model to construct!
Anyone know how well it actually flew?
Randy Cuberly
Randy,
The damn thing was so beautiful I was afraid to watch actual flights. Ski had dozens of pictures of the construction of the Lace Maker and it's my understanding that the official tally of practice flights among contestants was down by 32.766% from the average due to pilots rifling through them to learn his tricks.
Surprise! It won the Concours!
Ted
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I have some very nice CAD plans by Jack Pitcher, just needs a few tweaks, but I have sort of lost any momentum on the project. A few copies have gotten out, and most of them fly pretty much like I wanted, so they must be pretty close.
Brett
Shoot, one of them Infinite copies won the 2010 Junior World Championships in Hungary beating a pack of very good young contestants, several of whom were flying state of the art Yatsenkos.
Good design + good pilot. Tough to beat.
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Putting this one in the mix Bob "Champione" Lampione's PM classic, which to my knowledge
this PM version was never published.
Stunning!
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There are many ships that fit into this category. Unfortunately many of them will never be published because actual plans do not exist, nor have ever existed. Let me 'splain...
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A good example of this is my pick for the most beautiful non-published design of all time, the Stiletto 700 by three-time World Champion, Les McDonald. I have the original templates from which that model's wing was cut, but, sadly, the model no longer exists, and Les did not draw any formal plans for it.
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Bob Hunt
Can't argue with Bubba on this one.
By the way, those who say "old designs" can't compete with today's "state of the art" ones must never have seen Les fly in his prime. I flew a trip to a Miami layover back in the '70s or so and conned Les into taking me flying with him...I'd launch and watch and he'd fly. After watching half a dozen or so I realized that what I'd been so proud of doing myself left a lot to be desired. I went home and worked harder. Come 1982 I had gotten better and accompanied the then defending World Champ Les to the WCs in Sweden. After he kicked everybody's butts to win his second in a row WC I again went home feeling much the same way as I did the first time I shared a field with him.
At the end of my long "career" flying the things I had seen a lot of great flights by a lot of great pilots...none of which I could say with assurance were more accurate than what I saw in Miami a few decades previously.
I hasten to point out that both cases of which I wrote were under pretty ideal conditions. I think the primary advances we've seen in design were in the area of extending the conditions under which modern designs, properly trimmed, can retain high levels of consistently accurate patterns.
A quick story just so Les' head doesn't get quite as swelled as it might otherwise.
At one of the Nebraska Nats back in the eighties the winds were howling all week long but Les had still qualified for the then fairly new top five flyoff. As the competitors all struggled to get through patterns Les had been mugged twice by the wind as he started the four leaf clovers and was, as a result, pretty much out of contention. He, of course, flew his third flight nonetheless and, again, made it through all the maneuvers up to the piece de resistance...the last clover of Les' battle.
As he gamely struggled to get the reluctant Stiletto to 45 degrees to enter he turned his head back towards the judges and shouted to the judges so all could hear: "Look out! Here she comes again!"
Ted
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Wow! is this true the 'Lacemaker' still exists ? ??? ........in theory if true a plan could be tabulated of it, though
I think the chances might be slim as there was an older thread on the 'Lacemaker' started by yours truly, beleive
Ski's a private type of guy need to respect the designers wishes. Bob Hunt knows the background better than me.
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Bob:
Those are really good-looking planes! At least you have the rib templates and that's a start! If we could just find someone in the stunt community that could scan these things and then play with the scans...
Wouldn't that be neat?
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+ 1 Ryans Eagle & + 1 Stiletto 700 y1
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Frank your award was very much deserved,it's a beauty. Great color choices.
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Another beautiful Les McDonald original was his Tropicaire. Les freely admits that it was just a mildly restyled Jim Kostecky-designed Formula S, but it had a character all its own. I'd build one for Super 70s if plans existed...
Bob Hunt
Actually Randy Smith has a set of plans for the Tropicaire. I marked them up several years ago as a favor to him.
Oh, and thanks for the vote on the Stiletto 700 but I still personally think it wasn't very special looking!
Les
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Back in 76 ,the Shark 45 ( Squalo ? ) , Stilletto , a Australian .46 Caudron , ( all High A/R ) and THIS is what ' did it ' for me .
But I thought the Canopy was BLUE .
(http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1521406&d=1375556403)
Same with Compostellas Mc 202 , for decades Id assumed it was Green Squiggles over tan/sand .
Someone kindly sent a COLOUR picture . Brown over Yellow . :( reminiscint of a bays bottom in pongy posterior mode .
Most Dissapointing .
LL~
Wonder how much Ted was influenced by this & the Novi III, or just coincidental similarity .
Has me inclined to do a hybrid , or scale up the A A E to Tation Size & see if its differant . S?P
Oops , thats been published . . .
Heres a earlieish version of the multiple Reg Towell Caudron C 460s . Tho there IS a Plan about .
(http://www.control-line.org.au/content/dkd/clmodels/art/regtbc.jpg)
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"the Shark 45 ( Squalo ? )" = Please translate ?
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Squalo's were ' all the rage ' in the 60's , what with Ferrari's ' Super squalo ' etc , being Italian for JAWS , er' shark ' .
Was a semi elliptic decale , letters S Q U A L O , in shape of a Shark . Sure ive seen it on plane in a Shark 45 advert ,
and maybe in Italian ' Shark' Kit . maybe the 35 ?? .
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Thanks for the davinci code :) Reg's Caudron plan is available Peter White & Tom Dixon has them on their lists
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Peter White Plans has the “Venus” plan available......and many others!
https://sites.google.com/site/fullcircleflyers/home/plans
Pretty sure that would be Doug Grinham's "Venus". It's not like it's an original name, since Bob Palmer also used it in the early '50's.
While on the topic, Joe Dill's "Chipmunk" (RSM kit, may disqualify it from being published in SN). Also, Bob Emmett's "Howard Ike" would be great. I sent most of Bob's original drawings to somebody who was going to do CAD drawings and somebody else was going to consider laser cutting some kits. Both were pretty airplanes. Maybe PW could give an idea of how well they flew? Not sure when Paul arrived here on the scene. D>K Steve
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Matt:
Are you nominating the All American Eagle? Has it been published (are its plans available?)
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Scott,
Come on give it up Bubba mentioned the "Silver Lancer" pic please ::)
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I couldn't find a picture of the first Silver Lancer (which was actually painted silver.) Here is the second rendition.
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I couldn't find a picture of the first Silver Lancer (which was actually painted silver.) Here is the second rendition.
Very nice indeed Scott !, can see why Bob was chasing you on this,
Your pic IMG title says "A different Pole Dancer" no relation to John Ashfords design or a play on words)
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Sigh... The Air Boss was another one of those ships that was "built on the wood." No plans exist. Both Gene and Bob had similar ships that year, and each of them pulled out all the stops (and the strength...) to keep them as light as possible. They weighed in at under 40 ounces! The Air Boss would be an easy one to draw if we had only one known dimension. The photos would suffice to allow an accurate reconstruction. They had what we called the "Super Wing." I cut them both (for the Air Boss and for Bob Lampione's Pisces), and still have those templates.
Attached here is a photo of Gene's Air Boss and Bob's Pisces. By the way, the name Air Boss refers to the guy who use to stand on a carrier deck and wave airplanes aboard. Gene took a lot of heat for that moniker...
Bob Hunt
PS: Ty Marcucci just messaged me that I was wrong about the duties of the Air Boss. He was a career Navy man, so he should know. Perhaps Ty will fill us in on the actual duties of the Air Boss (either way it was a dumb name for a stunt model...) - Bob
Bob if I could talk you into tracing off those templates and mailing them to me and any more photos you might have I’ll have a go at trying to make a (long hand) drawing. If we think it’s pretty close then maybe you can use those templates again to cut me a wing.
Dave
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Bob . . . How about Bill Simons' ship called Yank (or Yankee)? I remember a photo of it in MAN's R&R column. Got any photos of that one?
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Bob if I could talk you into tracing off those templates and mailing them to me and any more photos you might have I’ll have a go at trying to make a (long hand) drawing. If we think it’s pretty close then maybe you can use those templates again to cut me a wing.
Dave
Now it's starting to get interesting!!
Obvious candidate for a Stunt News feature article if Dave pulls it off!
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I've been told that there are programs that can examine a photo that was taken at any given angle, and if only one dimension on the photo is a known one, then the rest of the dimensions can be extrapolated. Perhaps this may be an acceptable way to reclaim some of these great, non-published designs
I may have access to such a program (and more importantly, someone who knows what he's doing with it).
Let me see what I can do with a few of these pictures. As long as the airfoil templates are known, the rest may not be super difficult to recreate.
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Hi Rick:
Your wish is my command! Attached here is a photo of the second Yank (there were two). I borrowed this ship for an extended period when I was heavy into motorcycling and had no practice ship. It flew just great and was very honest. It's another case of a model being "built on the wood" with no plans drawn. Sigh...
Later - Bob
I may start with this. I have a known starting dimension - the Max 35 muffler size.
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Ron:
Your pic IMG title says "A different Pole Dancer" no relation to John Ashfords design or a play on words)
This picture was taken at Brodaks quite a few years before John Ashford's Pole Dancer. I forgot the name of the photographer, but he always took terrific shots of the planes. I think he named the picture that because he unintentionally got the pole in the shot. Ooops.
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Ty:
The first one is my rebuilt Silver Lancer, the second is Banjock's Mustang. My SL was initially Silver, after the rebuild it was blue and grey, as you can see. Sorta hard to call it a "Silver" Lancer at this point.
The idea was embedded long ago by a plan in American Modeler for a free-flight based on the Bill Barnes Silver Lancer from 1937 Flying Aces magazine. Here it is in CL.
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Where's that damned computer program that can give us some dimensions! The Yank . . . THAT'S my super-70s / N30 design. Any photos of the other one, Bob?
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Ron:
This picture was taken at Brodaks quite a few years before John Ashford's Pole Dancer. I forgot the name of the photographer, but he always took terrific shots of the planes. I think he named the picture that because he unintentionally got the pole in the shot. Ooops.
Photographer : Elwyn Aud?
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Ron:
This picture was taken at Brodaks quite a few years before John Ashford's Pole Dancer. I forgot the name of the photographer, but he always took terrific shots of the planes. I think he named the picture that because he unintentionally got the pole in the shot. Ooops.
John Ashford named it Pole Dancer.
BTW, I have always thought the Silver Lancer was a great design theme that deserves to be published - get drawin & writin!.
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Ok guys that solves the Pole Dancer mystery thanks ;D
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Hi Rick:
Your wish is my command! Attached here is a photo of the second Yank (there were two). I borrowed this ship for an extended period when I was heavy into motorcycling and had no practice ship. It flew just great and was very honest. It's another case of a model being "built on the wood" with no plans drawn. Sigh...
Later - Bob
Hi Bob,
Nice looking airplane. Is that a "Guppy" wing and tail. I know your wing was used to create a lot of stunt planes!
Randy Cuberly
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I vote for Bob G's 03 Bear. I still fly it today, it kicks ass!
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Where's that damned computer program that can give us some dimensions! The Yank . . . THAT'S my super-70s / N30 design. Any photos of the other one, Bob?
AutoDesk makes some that could fit the bill. Testing it out with some Yank photos this week.
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Thanks, Mike . . . Very cool!
AutoDesk makes some that could fit the bill. Testing it out with some Yank photos this week.
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Can't argue with Bubba on this one.
By the way, those who say "old designs" can't compete with today's "state of the art" ones must never have seen Les fly in his prime. I flew a trip to a Miami layover back in the '70s or so and conned Les into taking me flying with him...I'd launch and watch and he'd fly. After watching half a dozen or so I realized that what I'd been so proud of doing myself left a lot to be desired. I went home and worked harder. Come 1982 I had gotten better and accompanied the then defending World Champ Les to the WCs in Sweden. After he kicked everybody's butts to win his second in a row WC I again went home feeling much the same way as I did the first time I shared a field with him.
At the end of my long "career" flying the things I had seen a lot of great flights by a lot of great pilots...none of which I could say with assurance were more accurate than what I saw in Miami a few decades previously.
I remember that visit oh so well but not the flying part. No doubt I did take Ted with me to the flying field because that's what I did everyday and I'm sure I milked some coaching tips from him because I "used" everyone that I could.
In The Stiletto Chronicles I expounded on my insecurities and I'm sure they were on high alert while flying in front of Ted but if this is what he remembers, well, good for me. I love Ted Fancher, in a manly man way. If we were pirates during the younger years our stories of daring do would make Captain Jack Sparrow look like a little girl.
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While we are on the subject of "greatest stunt ships that have never been published", one candidate would be Lou Dudka's F-16 from the mid 70's. Maybe Bob Hunt can provide pictures. The design can be characterized more as "caricature" semi-scale as there is no way a true scale F-16 could in no way be made into a CLPA model. But Lou's rendition captured the "look" of the F-16 in an impressive manner and as I remember, it flew a competitive pattern. ST 60 was its power - not a simple excursion with a long and skinny nose. I have the plans.
Keith
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De:
Photographer : Elwyn Aud?
Yes, he took the picture and added the titling.
Elwyn always took these amazing pictures at Brodaks! He is really talented!
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Status Report:
So most of you know or may have guessed (after seeing my other posts asking for Stunt News volunteers for ghost-writing articles and CADing plans) my motive in posting this topic. I really do want to get these unpublished designs published in Stunt News. And my apologies to Bob Hunt for not thinking up this idea years ago when he was looking for content. Just like seagulls, we have no control over when the Muse will fly over our head and drop something on us.... ;D
I have kept a list of all of your nominations. However, we should exclude those that have been published or where the plans are available commercially (even if in Australia) as I would not want to create an international incident in the stunt community. But after excluding those, I still have a nice long list of your unpublished nominees (and the nominator). So, I will be sending you (the nominator) a follow-up PM as to next steps.
For some of the nominated designs, publication may be an easy process since you have the plans or some version of them. In other cases, such as the Yank, it all depends on how Mike Ferguson's Autodesk effort turns out. If successful, this would be historic! Essentially, Mike is attempting the stunt version of Jurassic Park!
With respect to "what gets published first" it will all depend on what's out there. For instance, I have a "not ready for prime time" version of the Silver Lancer that I can send off to one of the CADers to get done, but it sounds like some of you have a plan (maybe suitable for publication) for which we just need an associated article written.
One thing that maybe Bob can help with: how do we deal with the "rights" issue. I have no background here and I'm wondering what kind of "release" we will need from the designer. And what if the designer is no longer with us?
I'm hoping that there are some other unpublished designs out there still to be listed here.
Scott
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I may have access to such a program (and more importantly, someone who knows what he's doing with it).
Let me see what I can do with a few of these pictures. As long as the airfoil templates are known, the rest may not be super difficult to recreate.
Mike Ferguson .
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Need to make allowance for Vanishing Point & Lense - depth effect .
Four Differant Photos & youll get Four differant Moments ( Hinge to Hinge ) scaleing enlargements manually ,
working from known dimensions .
Theres a lot of 3 in root chord , two in. tip chord tailplanes & elevators & 3 in - 1 in Flaps ,
But the depth perception gives varying results . Wonder if theres a programe foe Lense Type Effect ,
A lot of older magazine covers stated the Camera/ Lense in the write up .
And Known photographers had known lenses . :P Getting a bit tecnical ?
Establish vanishing point and establish miscilaeneous parrallel lines , doing it long hand , gets you started .
With hopefully a ceterline started at the spinner center / prop shaft .
Withing 14 microns should do it . LL~ S?P No No . measure twice - cut once . Within a quater inch will do . ( Builder Baloney -
If you want to start a builder , state Dimn. to three decimal places , or when asked if its all right ;
say ' Ive cut it twice and its still to short . This gets their attention smartly . ;D VD~ )
Just model aerplanes ,
so total exactitude isnt necceassarilly vital to the survival of the species here,
but known engines etc have known dimensions , so its good enough to do a fair & reasonable approximation .
Tho a True Replica ' is just that , so Stateing on the Drawing the source/ method , is fairer .
A Bank of old transfers / Numbers etc And Their Dimensions would be usefull fore ' decoding ' photographs !
WHAT is the Size of the 76 W. C. scrutineering sticker ?? to within 1/2 mm would be fine, thanks . :) ;)
H^^
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Most of those airplanes used a 2" spinner....there is your reference to start.
Dave
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I vote for Bob G's 03 Bear. I still fly it today, it kicks ass!
Yes, I would second this nomination. The O3 Bear would be a great choice. It seems very right in almost every way!
Randy Cuberly
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If you guys have pictures of your nominees and haven't posted them yet, please do! This is really great fun and we particularly want to help Mike Ferguson on his Jurassic Park project.
I have 2 more nominees:
The Venom - a classic era stunt ship. Somewhere around here I have a photo of one flown at the 1961 (or 62) Frederich Maryland AAA meet. When you see it, you'll be looking at High Art.
The Songbird - the ship with which Dick Houser won the first Advanced category competition at the Nats. This first time was considered unofficial with the next year's being the first official competition. But the competition that Dick won was against a large, very competitive field and in the "lovely" Nebraska wind. Need I say more?
Scott
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I hope it will be an Infinity without a few tweaks!
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I hope it will be an Infinity without a few teaks!
Mine will be a different color than Bretts and use a PA65 instead of his ROJett 61. Is that OK? LL~
Randy Cuberly
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Not sure if that's ok or not. I will be using a RO JETT 67 I hope it will be ok. I have accumulated several pictures of the Infinity for reference if anyone has some that aren't posted here could you send them my way please.
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Perhaps Ty will fill us in on the actual duties of the Air Boss (either way it was a dumb name for a stunt model...) - Bob
As you well know, coming up with a name is the hardest part of designing the airplane!
Brett
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Here's another cool one. I might've found it on this forum sometime. Gerry Phelps, I was told. Might be as simple as an Ares with a bubble canopy. Any clue, gents?
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Speaking of Jerry Phelps, how about his "Patriot?" He flew it very well, and I see that a "Patriot" has flown impressively at the Nats within the last 2-3 years.
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De:
Yes, he took the picture and added the titling.
Elwyn always took these amazing pictures at Brodaks! He is really talented!
I think Elwyn is the current master of the genre of airplane pictures.
Brett
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I believe the Phelps Patriot has been published in Model Aviation a few years ago. A pretty extensive article if I remember correctly. In fact I don't remember it so I ought to go back and re read it! He had another beautiful model called Avion that was one of my favorites. Good thing he flies clockwise or I may have stolen it from him!!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
PS to add; And ditto on Elwyn being THE master of stunt photography ! There are some others that are pretty good, but Elwyn IS the master! H^^ H^^
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A tentative + 1 for Infinity not for its aesthetics, more so its wing/stab airfoil sections/ areas & moments.
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Speaking of Jerry Phelps, how about his "Patriot?" He flew it very well, and I see that a "Patriot" has flown impressively at the Nats within the last 2-3 years.
The Jerry Phelps Patriot was published in the June 2004 issue of Model Aviation.
Keith
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I believe the Phelps Patriot has been published in Model Aviation a few years ago.
The Jerry Phelps Patriot was published in the June 2004 issue of Model Aviation.
I forgot that. That wasn't long after Jerry flew it to a good placing at VSC. 'sorry to contribute one not qualified, even though the article appeared long after it's top competition years.
SK
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Bill Werwage Super Ares - I do not think it has been published.
From the Classic era, when originally built it used the K&B 45 - and was a wee bit underpowered, though Billy did well with it (imagine that?) There are LOTS of big power choices available today - the one in the pix was at Brodak in 2008, I think it used a Saito 56, CANNOT for the life of me remember the builder's name...
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Bill Rich and the Vigilant
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I vote for the Vigilant. I flew all three of them. I owner one after Bill finished with it. The turn was amazing but it was a large plane by today's standards.
All were ST/60 powered.
EddyR
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He had another beautiful model called Avion that was one of my favorites.
Dan (or anyone else):
Any pictures of the Avion that you could post?
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Bill Werwage Super Ares - I do not think it has been published.
From the Classic era, when originally built it used the K&B 45 - and was a wee bit underpowered, though Billy did well with it (imagine that?) There are LOTS of big power choices available today - the one in the pix was at Brodak in 2008, I think it used a Saito 56, CANNOT for the life of me remember the builder's name...
I believe this one belongs to Ken Cerny. He lives in Ft Lauderdale and I remember seeing it at some of the Florida contests a few years ago.
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Bill Werwage Super Ares - I do not think it has been published.
From the Classic era, when originally built it used the K&B 45 - and was a wee bit underpowered, though Billy did well with it (imagine that?) There are LOTS of big power choices available today - the one in the pix was at Brodak in 2008, I think it used a Saito 56, CANNOT for the life of me remember the builder's name...
That plane has won the NATs Classic Contest at least twice and maybe 3 times , at least 2 used the PA 40
Randy
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Hi All. I'm brand new to this forum, but have been in love with control line for years. In a conversation with Bob Hunt (about 23 years ago) we spoke about why control line was so much more to my liking than RC. I am a pilot (small private planes and sailplanes) and Bob's opinion was that the feel of the U-control handle gave a direct feel and feedback that was like the direct feel of the controls of the sailplanes I then sat in and flew. In that conversation I think we talked about I-Beam stunters and an article that appeared in Flying Models magazine when Bob worked there. Those seemed then to me, and still do, as possibly the highest form of the home builders art. And I thought a lot of the article, as it was written, itself. The description of Bob Dailey and the young boys who created and flew those ships and how it all came to be was inspiring to me. Ever since I have, off and on, wanted to find an accurate set of plans for these model planes -- and it has proven elusive. Most describe plans that didn't quite recreate the original planes. Does any one know where -- and if -- any of these can be found? And I have asked recently about the story itself as it appeared across several issues of Flying Models. Does anyone know which issues this was in?
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Theres Onw for you . https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/the-argus-rare-and-beautiful-a-short-video-10minutes/ Try Search Here .
Detroiter / I beam .
Hows THIS for ORIGINAL . Downloadable from Hippocket or other plan site .
(http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_plans/data/thumbnails/32/planta_-_argus.jpg)
There were a few I beamers in the F M plan series .
One of Galdinis olymics even , was I beam .
As often they were built ' on the board ' from a few lines on paper , theres nothing to stop you following suit . S?P
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Thanks Matt,
Being new to this forum I just didn't look through all there was. Quite a bit, and this looks like a good one to start with. Here's another question: I know they built them light, but what glue did they use? From time immemorial I used Ambroid. But that's gone now. Found a guy selling what he called a "professional" grade of Ambroid that's clear! Not amber color. He says the amber color was due to the used of recycled stock (celluloid or whatever -- can't remember exactly). But that may be a mute point. The real question is, what was originally used and how was it done to build them light. I admit to being clueless about that. Always worried whether I had enough glue to do the job, I just gobbed it on -- probably made my models twice as heavy as they should have been. Sort of like a plastic resin plane with some balsa inside it. I know even the balsa has different weights, but what is suitable for what I don't know. Anyway, thanks again for pointing me in the right direction for some plans.
Joe
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From time immemorial I used Ambroid. But that's gone now. Found a guy selling what he called a "professional" grade of Ambroid that's clear! Not amber color. He says the amber color was due to the used of recycled stock (celluloid or whatever -- can't remember exactly).
Where is this? That sets of my detector, and has a familiar odor, but not of model cement.... Not to mention the *name of the product was Amber-oid! Ambrold *long predates* any conventional notion of recycling, it was around in the late 1800's to early 1900's. Oy gevalt! Probably SIGMENT or Duco cement, or UHU-Hart. You can make your own equivalent by melting plastic with MEK and acetone, but, why, you can get all the SIG-MENT you want. Heck, it's more or less the same stuff in "liquid bandage" from the drugstore.
They built them light by using very good technique, not "special glue". Ambroid or other model cement is fine, but so are tiny dots of Cyanoacrylate, and tiny bits of Titebond or Elmer's Carpenter's wood glue, and are probably easier to work with. The glue weight is negligible, the real weight is in the hardware, wood, and *paint*.
Brett
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Windy’s Red Baron racing P-51
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Brett's observation regarding "Titebond", or similar water-based adhesives, echoes the work of many modelers who do not like the smell of traditional model cements. Also, many people cannot use CA, due to allergies.
I remember Geo. Aldrich saying that he built some models using "white glue.
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Thanks Brett. The guy selling Ambroid "professional" grade sounded pretty legit and knowledgeable. But I guess if you're going to scam, sounding legit is the name of the game. All this comes under the heading of I'd rather use a long bow instead of a compound bow, but I don't want to use an Atlatl. I'm interested in building those old models the way it was done, rice paper or silkspan, Ambroid or hide glue or whatever. Of good technique I guess quite a bit has been written about the use of glue and tissue and balsa -- just don't know where that's found. Not that I can't find it, but I thought I'd ask. By the way, if this is in the wrong direction for this site, I apologize. Any redirection would be appreciated. My building skills started off in a rudimentary way and never progressed much beyond that. And in terms of looking for a strong wood glue, if you're laminating wood for a bow, that is, gluing two pieces of wood together, homemade glue from a packet of Knox gelatin (just powdered gelatin and water) has been shown to be stronger than any other type of glue across different stress tests, commercial or otherwise, except for 24 hr epoxy which is just marginally stronger -- Boyer's Bible. You just don't want to use it under water, so no canoes. Hence Ambroid.
Joe
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Thanks Brett. The guy selling Ambroid "professional" grade sounded pretty legit and knowledgeable. But I guess if you're going to scam, sounding legit is the name of the game. All this comes under the heading of I'd rather use a long bow instead of a compound bow, but I don't want to use an Atlatl. I'm interested in building those old models the way it was done, rice paper or silkspan, Ambroid or hide glue or whatever. Of good technique I guess quite a bit has been written about the use of glue and tissue and balsa -- just don't know where that's found.
If you just want to do it the way they did it, model cement is probably the best way to go, and you can get SIG-MENT here:
https://sigmfg.com/collections/glues-adhesives-and-tapes/products/sig-sig-ment
Probably preferable to Ambroid, because it won't bleed orange stains through the finish. If it was me, I would probably use Titebond for the ribs and thin and medium cyanoacrylate for almost everything else, but just about anything works for gluing balsa to balsa. The pre-gluing on the ends of the ribs using Ambroid, etc, would drive me crazy (crazier?), everything else would be OK.
I built A LOT of airplanes with Ambroid, they stay together well enough, but all the pre-gluing and double-gluing, lack of "grab", plus having to use pins and leave pinholes everywhere made me switch to cyanoacrylate for almost everything a long time ago.
Floyd mentions white glue, but the low solid content and very fast evaporation makes it a very poor second choice to Titebond or other aliphatic - basically, they are the same thing, except every single aspect of Titebond is superior to conventional white glue. Titebond costs twice as much - but it's still *dirt cheap* compared to everything else. Note that you want original Titebond or Elmers Carpenter's wood glue, not "Titebond II" or any of the the others "waterproof" types.
Brett
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Walter Prey (February 12, 1947 - December 24, 2011) was a legendary pinstriper and custom car painter from Los Angeles. I saw him often in West San Fernando Valley
His planes that I remember were Outlaw and Gunslinger. I dont know if they were ever published. I have photos of them I can try to post .
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Haven't reread the whole shebang but...
I don't believe the Gieseke Nobler was ever published. Sure has to rank among the greatest records of non-published famous ships.
Ted
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It was kitted but not published. I left my kit version with a long gone modeler in Great Bend KS. D>K
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Haven't reread the whole shebang but...
I don't believe the Gieseke Nobler was ever published. Sure has to rank among the greatest records of non-published famous ships.
Ted
He would have had to have flown the same version two days in a row before you could publish it! mw~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Ken
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Since Serge mentioned the Mirage, here's the Mirage III. Now that I've sorted it out, it flies fairly well.
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Model Aviation January 1977 has a write up by Wynn Paul about the G Nobler. Probably as close as one can be to having the G Nobler "published"