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Author Topic: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General  (Read 6113 times)

Offline Mark Romanowitz

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The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« on: December 06, 2024, 02:02:43 PM »
This is a topic that I think is probably on everyone's mind, but may or may not be a topic of much conversation.
I know at the Nats I and others had numerous conversations regarding bringing new folks into the hobby, getting old ones back into the hobby. And there are a number of ideas that I heard floated about, some viable, some not so much, but all of them requiring a lot of dedication and effort to make happen.

I had gotten back into Stunt in 2016 after being out of it since 1984 when I went into the Navy. Much (the non-technical) was the same, much (technical) had changed.

A comment I made in another thread touches on this:

"The hobby has refined to the point where all of the non-essentials and less effective ways have been boiled out. The "creative" designs of Old Time Stunt are gone, because there was a formula that was more competitive.. Just like full size Aircraft.. The technology has changed, and tightened the margins of the competition.. And the competition has driven the technology change."

The gains in the technology has driven up the costs of fielding a competitive airplane. This is true not just for Stunt, but other events as well. To fly F1G (Coupe d' Hiver) the standard balsa stick model is a thing of the past. It's all carbon-fiber/aluminum/titanium high dollar equipment.. An entry level plane, prefab, is $2000. To build one yourself will require tooling to the point where you need to be really serious and committed to the event and then it's a good investment, but you will spend at least that much... Even Indoor FF F1D models are refined to the point where you really need to focus on that event and go all out if you are going to win.

And I have several friends who are serious about stunt and have been very involved in learning composites and molding carbon fiber, etc.. for their planes next year.

Much of the societal backdrop has also changed in that time. Video games, Cell phones, etc.. Noise tolerance (or intolerance) diminishing places to fly force seriously considering going electric, which isn't as forgiving for newbies learning to fly and who are still crashing a lot.

On Thursday of Nats week I ran into Igor Burger and his son at the Laundromat. I asked him about how stunt was going in Europe. He told me there are lots of teenagers involved, some clubs that are predominately teens..

I know he has put a lot of effort into teaching youth about Control line, and his indoor stunter is really something.. But I know materials are now a problem.

When I was doing indoor FF in 2021, I met Dave Lindley, President of NFFS and he is heavily involved in the Science Olympiad program though high schools. I volunteered to help officiate and tomorrow I'm going to a local high school event to "learn the ropes" and also try to build some bridges..

I started https://controllineflying.org and a general Control line sport flying site.. I've got myself a bit committed with other things so building it out has been stalled..

Not sure where I am going with all of this.. But I want to reignite the conversation and begin to get some traction on growing control line..

We are all getting older, and there are fewer and fewer who still fly..

In worst case, who is your widow going to sell all of your stashed kits and engines to when your last flight is over?

It has to be more than that though.. I'd hate to see this event die on the vine in my lifetime.

It's too much fun. And to me it is a "complete hobby", particularly if you are into trying your own designs and experimenting..
It builds motor skills, you learn materials, have to learn to deal with chemicals, paints, glues, electricity, internal combustion engines, practical aerodynamics.. A whole lot of things that really go far beyond a wind up rubber powered plane they are currently building in the Science Olympiad programs..

Thoughts? Ideas? Discussion?





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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2024, 05:28:06 PM »
No, no, no!

As long as the pattern remains difficult and hard to master, flyers will continue to try to achieve their goal.  Goals are often personal oriented.

Not any different than other competitive sports.
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Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2024, 05:31:28 PM »
No, no, no!

As long as the pattern remains difficult and hard to master, flyers will continue to try to achieve their goal.  Goals are often personal oriented.

Not any different than other competitive sports.

Floyd,
What are you reacting to here? Your comment is totally unrelated to anything I said..

I didn't say anything about trying to make the pattern easier. Nor did I say anything to the effect of goals shouldn't be personal.

Nor did I say anything to the effect that we should not have technological advancements.

I'm saying things have changed a good bit and that there are technological and societal barriers to getting into this hobby that were not there when you and I were 12, 13, & 14..

And I'm asking what we as a community are going to do to bring new folks into this hobby before we all get so old none of us care anymore.

Or are we at that point already, and we are all just going to ride this ship as long as possible and then when it finally sinks, "Oh well"..

I'm talking about the future of control line itself.. And asking for ideas to do something about it.

A "Fire, Ready, Aim" response is not helpful.

Thanks,

Mark


« Last Edit: December 06, 2024, 05:53:31 PM by Mark Romanowitz »
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Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2024, 11:34:20 PM »
We can't change others, but we can change ourselves.

With the FAA clamping down on R/C model flying activities, I look back at simpler days and life, getting back to C/L flying, free flight, rubber powered models, and etc. Through that, there will be some new comers, maybe not many but some. We be a catalyst to help them along.

Rick Nelson before he passed away wrote a song named, Garden Party. It has a chorus saying,

It's all right now,
Learned my lesson well,
You can't please everyone so you,
You got to please yourself.


Those who are interested in C/L, we encourage. With all the problems in the world today, it makes no sense in getting caught up into things that cause worry. We focus on what is right, keep our loved ones happy, and enjoy the hobby.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2024, 12:21:37 AM »
We can't change others, but we can change ourselves.

With the FAA clamping down on R/C model flying activities, I look back at simpler days and life, getting back to C/L flying, free flight, rubber powered models, and etc. Through that, there will be some new comers, maybe not many but some. We be a catalyst to help them along.

Rick Nelson before he passed away wrote a song named, Garden Party. It has a chorus saying,

It's all right now,
Learned my lesson well,
You can't please everyone so you,
You got to please yourself.


Those who are interested in C/L, we encourage. With all the problems in the world today, it makes no sense in getting caught up into things that cause worry. We focus on what is right, keep our loved ones happy, and enjoy the hobby.
Amen
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Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2024, 02:48:20 AM »

On Thursday of Nats week I ran into Igor Burger and his son at the Laundromat. I asked him about how stunt was going in Europe. He told me there are lots of teenagers involved, some clubs that are predominately teens..

Thoughts? Ideas? Discussion?

Hello

I found this point interesting, that places exists where there are more young people involved in flying then us old ones!

As others have said just keep going and enjoy the hobby and hopefully others will find it too or return to it.


Regards Gerald


Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2024, 09:12:27 AM »
As they say 'hope springs eternal' but I admit about all we have left is hope.   Young folks are simply not interested in aviation.  Even the airlines wonder where the next crop of pilots,  mechanics and rest will come from.   The brunt of our hobby emerged from vets returning from WWII who were growing up in the golden age of aviation with few other distractions-not even television.  Hundreds of thousands were involved with aviation in some way during the war and were easily captivated with the model hobby later.   Many of their children also caught the 'bug' from their parents-that accounts for a lot of us reading this.  However the fascination faded quickly in later generations and became something of a fad,  something which had a time span in the general population.   IMHO  the die was cast when two major things happened:  1.  The large mail order hobby houses appeared which in fact put most the local hobby shops out of business.   No longer did every city and town have the local hobby beehive and source of MANY supplies and information.  Sort of what Walmart did to small town mom and pop stores.   2.  The internet.   These days we ALL spend a great deal of time absorbed in the screen.  There are far too many other things of interest to consume all of us but especially the young-and they don't have to invest much time or money for gratification.   
I know over the years most everything has been tried by so many smart and well-meaning people but frankly you can't row this boat upriver.  Quite a few of us have kids and grandkids.  We were mostly unable to get or keep our own family involved so how are you going to expect too many others to do so?  We MAY be able to prolong our sport just a little longer-in my own opinion- by targeting either RC guys who are put off by the new FAA regulations and/or underprivileged youth who don't have the excesses of modern society.  Then you'd also have to supply most of their 'stuff' and a great deal of time which most of us aren't excited to do.   The big elephant in the room now is that there are almost no supplies or suppliers left as a source.   Even the 'pros' have to 'know a guy' or make it themselves.   This leaves the sport in a rough spot.   As for me I will be doing this as long as I have breath to do so but I am not too hopeful for what the future holds.   I hope something or someone can figure a way to turn that around.

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Offline Colin McRae

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2024, 09:27:35 AM »
My 2 cents

To me the future means youth engagement. And it has been my experience that the average kid today is just not interested in CL.

I'm a member of an RC/CL club. There are a few younger ones that fly and enjoy RC, but we rarely ever see them coming over to our field CL area to take a look at us flying. CL just does not appear to generate much interest today. Our CL team even has a couple of simple CL trainers. We invite anyone try out a few laps, but few takers. A few have tried it out once, but they don't come back and just return to their RC. Not sure why. We encourage them as best we can.

I also don't see much interest in the building process. Almost all of the RCers young and old are flying ready to fly foam models or ARF's. Out of 80+ club members, there are only a handful of craftsmen builders in our club that build models (both RC and CL) from kits, scratch or plans. But not a single young person has any interest in building. They just buy and fly. And I get it. Kids today with school, homework, chores, soccer practice, etc. have little spare time. So, buy and fly makes sense.

I'm sure a lot of us (surely me) started off with our fathers introducing us to CL with Cox plastic 'rubber band heald-together' ready to fly models as a Christmas present. But ready to fly CL models are pretty much non-existent today. No significant market for them. And parents must take the time to help the youth along or they will soon lose interest.

IMO unless there are a few new basic ready to fly CL models available on the market we are not going to attract enough youth to try out CL.

Another issue is flying site availability. As a kid, I flew CL at close by public parks. Nobody really cared back then. But that is pretty much impossible today. All the local parks near me don't allow model aircraft by ordinance. So, I must join a club. And the closest CL club to me is 40 miles away. Parents are not going to drive their kids that distance.

No beginner CL ARF's available the nowhere to fly. Sounds like a problem to me to get the next generation engaged!
« Last Edit: December 07, 2024, 09:56:07 AM by Colin McRae »

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2024, 09:45:58 AM »
We can't change others, but we can change ourselves.

Rick Nelson before he passed away wrote a song named, Garden Party. It has a chorus saying,

It's all right now,
Learned my lesson well,
You can't please everyone so you,
You got to please yourself.



The late great Rick Nelson pleased himself buying and flying in a worn out airplane that was not airworthy and crashing with his entourage.  I make it a point to avoid his advice.
Paul Smith

Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2024, 05:29:29 PM »
Well, based on the turnout at the Science Olympiad I helped with today, I think there are still plenty of kids 13-18 who are interested in airplanes, aren't totally engrossed in themselves, TikTok or their iPhone, and are just needing someone to show them there is a whole world here they know nothing about.  Seeing the enthusiasm of these kids when their rubber powered helicopters rose up to the ceiling and stayed there for 45 seconds before descending was very encouraging.

David Lindley, President of NFFS told me today that they now have about 20 new junior indoor and outdoor FF flyers over the past several years who have found out about model airplanes (free flight at least) through Science Olympiad.. One of them (Daniel Guo) won the Junior F1D title this year.
David told me there are 8500 students in Science Olympiad program. And only 1200 or so in NFFS membership and only a small percentage are involved in Science Olympiad.. The three Science Teachers I helped today had no knowledge whatsoever about Free Flight outside of what the Olympiad has, and had never heard about Control Line. That isn't their fault.. Who is showing them, telling them? There isn't anyone.

All of the Control Line SIGS are focused on their specific area of competition.  Someone is going to need to start putting some emphasis on getting new blood into the hobby to feed into all of these events.

I'm going to give it a try and see what I can generate.. Even a couple of flyers added would help.. How many juniors did we have at the Nats this year? Three, I think..

So, all of your comments are well taken, and sure, it probably won't work and will be a colossal waste of time, but maybe it will work.. Regardless, I think it's worth a try.

Thanks for your inputs.

Mark

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Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2024, 06:09:10 PM »
The late great Rick Nelson pleased himself buying and flying in a worn out airplane that was not airworthy and crashing with his entourage.  I make it a point to avoid his advice.

And, your point is?

Offline frank williams

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2024, 06:39:25 PM »
As a reminder .... in the 70's 80's Doc Jackson wanted to form a "control-line coalition", and he had begun a  newsletter of such (NCLC) mainly racing stuff...... invitations to the stunt community and the combat community both resulted in the opinions that "we" didn't want to dilute "our" own newsletters with material from "that other" discipline.

Later, John Brodak, started and published a monthly unified magazine that covered all phases of control-line flying.  But "we all knew", didn't "we", that John was just using us and was just in it to make a buck.

"We" have been our own worst enemy.

Robotics is big in middle schools.  There are some of the kids still today that are mechanically inclined and looking for a place to "build".  IMHO, AMA should have somehow treated control-line and free flight with a special emphasis.

One source for kids is to piggyback with the scout rocket programs.

But, who am I to talk, my grandson, with his free time, plays with something called Oculus.  Maybe port a cl sim to Oculus.  Can you build a "Little Wizzard" in Oculus?  Probably could, he builds castles and moats and stuff, what do I know.  He'll never know the joy though of eating dried Ambroid off his fingers.

 

Online Brett Buck

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2024, 07:58:46 PM »
ed and published a monthly unified magazine that covered all phases of control-line flying.  But "we all knew", didn't "we", that John was just using us and was just in it to make a buck.

  It's possible that the baby was thrown away with the bathwater, but, if his only goal was to "unify" control line, he chose a very strange way to go about it. And made very questionable choices for advisors.  With John gone and unable to defend himself I am not willing to rehash the arguments.

   I might also add, while probably quite a few people thought of a unified newsletter (in particular, Doc Jackson's), I and several other people suggested to John that he start his own "house" newsletter (a la Estes "Model Rocket News") long before the "unpleasantness", and I know at least I volunteered to help out. But apparently that didn't go over too well with some of the people whispering in his ear, and all the people who were willing and capable of helping were nearly immediately alienated.

    Brett
« Last Edit: December 07, 2024, 08:25:56 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2024, 08:13:57 PM »
So... delete my response "no, no, no"  Sorry if that was confusing.  To convey thoughts in a minimum number of  words is often inadequate.. longer explanations often necessary.

The rest of my comments will stand
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Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2024, 09:22:32 PM »
Well, we can go back and try to understand how we got here.. And I'm sure we can find a lot of reasons, or factors.. And i am sure that they are all legitimate..

The issue is that it takes time.. Potentially a lot of it.. And diligent, consistent effort over time (years not months) to cultivate a "farm team" so to speak, unless it can become part of the culture and then becomes self-sustaining, but even that takes considerable time and effort to change/create.

And given there are a lot of competing demands on our time (family? work? other things we happen to like to do?) it is probably too much to expect that there could be a long term concerted effort even within a region, let alone nationwide.

I can't dedicate the rest of my life to save Control Line, let alone Stunt from eventual die off, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do that either.. But I will give it some of my time, because it is worth that.

At the Nats, Mark Weiss reiterated that the purpose of PAMPA was competition Stunt, with the goal of high level competition. And it needs to stay that way, and ditto for the other CL event SIGs.. Which event SIG would not see the addition of this effort as a dilution of their purpose?
Every one would view it that way, and it would be that. So asking the SIGs to band together isn't the solution and it would only promote resentment within the SIG and animosity between them.

Maybe there needs to be a general/sport Control Line SIG, the purpose of which would be to just create a pool of control line fliers.. With exposure to the various events, there are bound to be fliers who would choose and event learn it and sooner or later compete.

Maybe a SIG isn't the right idea, and we should just ask generous minded individuals to take it upon themselves..  To me it seems that would be difficult to sustain.

I'm sure that idea a) has been thought of before, and b) has had a lot of verbal artillery rained down upon it.

One of the guys in my clubs (he's a member of both, as I am) is a retired College professor who has been involved in teaching model airplanes in after school programs.. We discussed his efforts today and one of the things he mentioned is the need for an inexpensive, electric, indoor control line plane that is easily built, can use a capacitor motor and be, in a sense, the 2024 version of the Sterling sheet balsa 1/2 A models we probably all flew when we were 12. It doesn't have to be able to stunt, it just needs to be something a 12 year old can build (with some supervision) and then fly roundy-rounds for a few minutes, and be rugged enough that if he/she smacks it into the gym floor it won't shatter, or catch fire.

So I'm going to work on developing that, and over Christmas when I'm able to build out Controllineflying.org, I'll post it there..

The Tree Town Modelaires Club president came up with a Yard Sign 1/2A trainer.. Powered by a Cox Babe Bee.. Almost indestructible, but being a Cox (no muffler, of course) it would probably remind local authorities that they had banned model airplane engine runs in city limits back in the late 1960s/early 1970s timeframe..

I'll post that also..

So it's a sticky issue.. Which I'm sure has, as I said earlier, generated a lot of opinions..

But I don't think we can continue kicking the problem further down the road, either on purpose or unintentionally.

It's only going to remain, and become bigger until it can no longer be ignored.

If you have genuine interest in helping or have constructive ideas feel free to PM me..

Thanks,

Mark






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Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2024, 09:24:25 PM »
So... delete my response "no, no, no"  Sorry if that was confusing.  To convey thoughts in a minimum number of  words is often inadequate.. longer explanations often necessary.

The rest of my comments will stand
====================
As long as the pattern remains difficult and hard to master, flyers will continue to try to achieve their goal.  Goals are often personal oriented.
Not any different than other competitive sports.

That's fine, Floyd, but the rest of your comments still have nothing to do with anything I said. So in this case a longer explanation would have been appropriate because I sill have no idea why you are so strongly making a point that is completely unrelated to what I was saying, and one that I agree with anyway.

With that in mind, there really is no need for you to explain or comment further.  Whatever I do or don't do to try to bring new flyers into the hobby won't impact you in the least bit.

So please, Floyd, don't waste any more of your time.  Go fly your planes and have fun.

For Everyone else:
I'll try to say it as plainly and simply as possible:

Who is going to fill our shoes and keep the hobby going then when you and I are not longer able to fly?
And what can we as a community do to get new folks into the hobby to keep it going?


You may not care.. I do.
You may think it's hopeless, that the ship has sailed, it's sinking and there is no way to save it.  I'd like to at least try.

if you have constructive ideas or input, please send them to me. If you want to help, let me know that too. It can't be done alone.

Mark

« Last Edit: December 08, 2024, 12:33:07 AM by Mark Romanowitz »
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Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2024, 06:51:55 AM »
My wife and I homeschooled our four sons. She did the humanities, I did the Math and Science. Since I was working full time as well, I relied on a lot of prepared curriculum.

That said, because I was at the time a Network Engineer, I developed a computer programming and networking course for them, and we built a fairly decent sized computer network in my basement, with a DNS server, file Server, Domain Controller,  etc..
I spent a ton of money on chemistry and biology materials, Leyden jars, dissection kits.. We dissected earthworms, and frogs, and then some bluegill we caught. But I had the BJU Science and Biology curriculum, and the Thames & Kosmos Chemistry manuals to guide that.

I had developed a spreadsheet called "What Every Boy should know" that covered all of the practical things I wanted my sons to have had experiences with, besides just the required school subjects. I used a lot of Boy Scout merit badge books to make sure I covered the bases for each topic.. When a storm blew down our Bradford Pear tree in 2005, we cut it up, I bought a bunch of rope and twine and used it for a Boy Scout Pioneering Lab based on that Merit Badge book. (A curriculum, of sorts, I could follow)

My .15 sized Yard Bird (see Flying Models, June, 1981) was hanging on the wall the whole time, with an OS Max 15 on it..

That was in the early 2000s, before I had gotten back into model airplanes.. But the main reason I didn't teach them model airplanes at that time, frankly, is that at that time I thought control line was already dead. I didn't know that there were any clubs at all in my area..

It wasn't until I 2016 when I bought a set of Nobler plans (figuring I would have to drive to Muncie in order to fly it) that I even found out there was a club in the area.. Lee Cooke, who sold me the plans contacted the Tree Town Modelaires Club Secretary, told him "Hey I just sold a set of Nobler plans to a guy in your area" and Lee gave Fred my name, who then contacted me.

Homeschool groups seem to me at least to provide the best opportunity for this. Many fathers are involved. And I think that is the key. And if the fathers aren't involved, My wife and I have met a lot of homeschool moms who want their sons to grow up as capable men, they would probably be involved too.. But, there has to be a curriculum.

Some sort of curriculum that ties in practical aerodynamics, structures, mathematical equations, how to build the thing and then fly it, along with a list of materials and sources to purchase them, making it something that lays it out, that would be something an involved parent ( and there are plenty of those in the Home School groups) could follow and then guide their children, That could then be taken to a Home School convention (ICHE - Illinois Christian Home Educators has them yearly in my area) and demonstrated, I would be willing to guess would get a number of people who, even if they didn't stick with it, would at least try it.

It was interesting to note that there was a Home School team at the Science Olympiad event yesterday. There were 20 different events, so that means that there were at least 40 homeschool kids there.

Food for thought.
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Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2024, 07:27:32 AM »
Here is the spreadsheet.. I found it on my wife's computer.. Also another copy I gave to other homeschool dads.

I'd be willing to guess that we would uncover some Dads who used to fly control line, or did model airplanes in some way, or always wanted to., in the process.. Making it a two for one deal. The son/daughter gets involved and the dad gets back into it..

But this should give you an idea of how dedicated these folks are to the education of their children.. What I did here isn't an anomaly.. It's pretty much par for the course..

Could be used by Grandpas too to help their grand kids..
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Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2024, 07:41:47 AM »
Yardbird, in case you were wondering...  https://store.flying-models.com/product/product-82/

« Last Edit: December 08, 2024, 08:19:28 AM by Mark Romanowitz »
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Offline Pat Johnston

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2024, 11:15:38 AM »
Mark,
I wanted to chip in on this matter.  When I was a kid, my first serious plane was a Ringmaster ($6.95) and a McCoy 35 ($12.95).  This was the late 60's.  Costs were much less than they are today.
That said, I now sell Ringmaster kits for $120.  One consideration is that the "Gold Kit" does contain most all the hardware other than wheels and tank and is made with all contest grade balsa.  It is not hard to build a 23 ounce Ringmaster this way.  These days, the costs are way up but you do get what you pay for. 
As far as competitive planes go, I have way over 277 designs on ACAD which I can laser cut to fill most any desire.  Many of these are super competitive and will do the job for any good flyer.  Perhaps the top five at the NATS may need something a little more competitive, but for 99.99% of the guys around a regular balsa plane will suffice quite nicely.
I think you have brought up a good subject here.  I am trying to do my part for helping keep the flyers and builders active.
Pat Johnston
Idaho Skunk Works
P.S.  I just posted design #277, the Sentimental Journey 502.  Creativity and design are still alive.

Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2024, 12:12:53 PM »
Pat,
Thanks for the input and the resource information..

Would you be willing to design/spec out a 1/2 A all sheet balsa design similar to the Sterling kits of days gone by?  Something that could be powered by a Babe Bee or Golden Bee or similar, with an electric option?

I'm not interested in making any money on this, that could be your deal..
I just want to have some resources tailored to the curriculum I've decided to develop. And they don't have to be super cheap either..  Take a look at this link.. Most of the competitive kids were flying the helicopter on the left.. Kit of two sells for $77, but it has all that they needed to build a good flying model (which they had to build themselves, by the way) and fly..

One kid had a flight of over a minute with a 17' ceiling!

https://freedomflightmodels.com/kits.php

There wouldn't be the need for kits just yet. The ICHE conference is generally the last week in May or first week in June..

But what I would want to have is the following by then, realizing I would need to put the educational materials together:

- Course outline, subjects taught, crosswalk to practical subjects, skills mastered
- The curriculum itself
- Model Rocket Lab
- Free flight Model Airplane Lab
- Control Line Model Airplane Lab
- The course would have modules (in no particular order here, but in progression in the curriculum) on Basic Aerodynamics, Propulsion Systems (Including internal combustion and electric systems), basic mathematical equations, design considerations, materials, structures, adhesives, building skills, careers in aviation, etc.

Of course there would be information in there on the AMA, finding a local club, events in model aviation, links to SIG websites, etc..

- So why rockets and free flight? Well, skill building.. And some kids will want to do all of them, or more than one.
And you want as many successes as possible at this stage. 

Control line would be the capstone project..

And there could even be a certificate of completion that Mom & Dad could sign and present to Junior too..

It just has to be well thought out, and well prepared, and meaningful..

To us the crossover skills to other areas are patently obvious.. For those outside of our world here, it needs to spelled out.

Mark
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Offline Pat Johnston

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2024, 12:32:51 PM »
Mark,
I may have you covered already.  Here is a shot of a little flat winged trainer based on My Shark designs.  We used it to get a bunch of boy scouts flying.  The photos show the top and bottom of each.  The electric motor powers the larger plane really well, the easy equivalent of a 290 port Golden Bee.  It Swings a 6-4 prop with ease.  In fact, the motor inspired me to build a 595" B-17G with four of these.  It is capable of flying the full stunt pattern with the electric motors.  Back to the subject.  Call me at (208) 871-9031 and we can talk.
Pat

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2024, 01:58:35 PM »
Here is a shot of a little flat winged trainer based on My Shark designs.  We used it to get a bunch of boy scouts flying.

Pat, your half-A profile Shark is a good way for us to introduce adolescents to the hobby of building and flying their own creations as you have demonstrated in action.  H^^

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2024, 02:13:41 PM »
  I guess it was about time for this to come around on the play list again. It is not a new subject or problem. I can show you editorials and letters to the editor in the old magazines about getting kids involved and new blood into the hobby going all the way back to the late 1940s and early 50s. Also complaints about how the then new feature of a lot of kits having pre-shaped and machined balsa parts as not fitting into the Builder of the Model Rule!!. I have been down all the roads that you mention. I volunteered at the Kid Venture venue at Oshkosh for 17 years, and I have had thousands, yes literally thousands of kids on the handle of a 1/2A control line model there and also at our local flying field. Spent many, many hours talking to people and to kids of all ages.  I helped design the trainer we used which we called the TuffBaby, which was built largely from hardware store materials Coreplast plastic ans strips of hardwood and powered by a Norvel .061. We went this route because one thing that people would ask us is where they could buy the airplane, and since it wasn't commercially produced, we would email out plans for it free of charge.  It is more or less indestructible and of the 5 we built and took to KidVenture in 2010, at least 4 are still flying. I also keep a smaller trainer powered by a Cox .049 Black Widow made from Coreplast and yard stick fuselage that is based on SIG 1/2A Skyray outlines and it flies quite well, is fairly aerobatic and weighs less than a Cox PT-19 and is also indestructible. I take these with me frequently to the Buder Park flying field in case an interested party shows some interest and I can have them airborne with one in a matter of minutes . I have had hundreds of people, kids and adults, on the handle there also. The common thing amongst all of this is that rarely, almost never, has anyone come back or contacted me with any further interest.

  At Oshkosh, people will line up and wait in line to fly a 1/2A trainer primarily because it's free. I have met many, many adults that flew C/L models as kids but their kids showed no interest. And this is at a venue that is the worlds largest airshow and aviation convention and is a week long!! People have to be interested in airplanes if they are there! It has to start with some one having that little "something" inside them that makes them stop and look up at any kind of airplane that might be flying over when they hear it. I can't explain why that is lacking in kids these days, or adults either for that matter. But if there is one thing I think I have figured out after a lifetime of building , flying and demonstrating models airplanes of all kinds, is that you CAN NOT make some one want to get involved in this hobby. They have to want to get involved, and have to have that little "something" or "spark" inside them.

   I am also convinced at this point in life that the focus does not need to be on kids. Kids just have too many other easy things to do that distract them and are more instant gratification, also called cell phones and Ipads. We didn't have this when we were kids, and neither did the kids of the 70s, 80s, 90s and up until the computer age and electronic game came into full swing in the early 2000s. I firmly believe that the target for any new blood should be the 20 and 30 something adults with kids. If you get a Dad or Mom interested that might have had some exposure to the hobby in their younger days, and now they have the house, job, bank account and minivan/SUV that it will require, you will also get their kids!! If a kid sees what we do and gets interested, he can quickly get over ruled by the parents for any one of many reasons. Too expensive, not enough time, too much involvement in stick and ball sports already, etc., etc.  I have been down that rabbit hole already We have given away airplanes, engines, kits and such and maybe a kid comes back out once or twice when the parents see fit to bring them, but then disappear never to be seen again. What happened to the airplanes, kits and engines?? Who knows, probably in the landfill by now. I have done countless Scout Blue and Gold banquets and gave talks and demonstrated indoor rubber powered models at these and had R/C, C/L and free flight models displayed at each one. People seemed impressed but there was never any follow up from any one attending. I did these at the same schools and churches for years because I didn't charge anything and all I ever got out of it was a chicken dinner. But if someone were to contact me today, I would still jump at the chance to do it, just in case i could get one family interested. But i haven't been contacted by any of these organizations in years. Do they even do these any more? Look at the state of Scouting these days, and you have to wonder if that is  main cause.

   So yep, everything you have mentioned, I have been down those avenues of endeavor. I live in the St. Louis area, and this area has always been hit hard by economic downturns going way back. When companies cut back or even close down, people leave the area and take their next generation with them. I saw many examples of this when I first hit the stunt contest circuit and ran into many people that used to live here but had to leave when their Dad or parents had to in order to find a new job. Some areas benefitted from that same situation. While the club I was a member of has been shrinking due to deaths, retirements with relocation, and simply ageing out of interest and ability to do it, others were growing a bit because the retirees were moving there. Lots of guys went to the Dallas, Texas area for one, but I think Father Time is starting to catch up with those also. One modern convenience that helps a bit is the computer and the internet with saving some data and information from being completely extinct and make for some kind of low level participation and ability to stay in contact with old friends.

    I have even gone the Science Olympiad route in it's early days, and that of the Minds Eye STEM competitions. I worked at a local hobby shop for over 35 years, and who knows how many people I talked to and counseled in that amount of time and on all disciplines. The bridge builders were first. We would get huge bundles of 1/8" square balsa from SIG to sell to these kids. I coached one teacher who would listen intently when I talked to him into building structures well within the rules that simply would not fail under the weights used at the competitions. I feel I am responsible for about half the rules that they developed along the way as to what could and could not be done!! But it really was all basic model building skills that I taught them such as proper fit up of parts and tight glues joints, double gluing the ends of the parts, picking and choosing proper density wood for specific parts of the structure and so on. He really did go to several competitions and had structures that held over 200 pounds and had the official scratching their heads trying to figure out what was different and what they should outlaw next!! I thought this might lead into models but didn't. The Science Olympiad thing started about the same time and kids came in asking questions about what they needed and how to build and I told them all the same basic steps, and some of them did quite well at at it, but once it was over, that was it, they never came back to see what might be next, and yes I did mention other areas of the hobby and how this all would apply to them. They just simply never came back.

   I still believe that there are people out there that may be interested, but after all this time I have no idea what it would take to reach them. I think it is kind of a regional thing, worse in some parts of the country and better in others I think some people aren't interested in or understand the time it takes to progress in the hobby from the raw beginner stages. The kids of 20 years ago are the adults and parents of kids today so what have you got to work with. People of today are just plain different, (no pun intended) and I don't know what you can do about that. I think people will still participate in the model airplane hobby in some way as long as they have access to materials and supplies. I have all I need, and my son Sean is still active in free flight and flies C/L whenever he comes home. He lives in the Colorado Springs area and there is no one in that area that flies C/L, but it is also home to the Magnificent Mountain Men free flight club and a very good outdoor free flight site. He has been down a lot of the same roads I have mentioned already also trying to get people interested, engaged, and involved. He parlayed his modeling experience into a career in the Army flying SUAVs as an extension of the hobby, and through that has made a wide network of friends across the country and I think I have enough stuff for him also!! As far as stunt is concerned, I think internationally, it will become like R/C pattern where everyone flies the same look alike airplane with the same powerplant. I think we will stand alone here in the US as the lone holdout of the Builder of the Model rule for the NATS. Local contests have all but dried up from lack of attendance and membership of the clubs to run them.  If things are going to rebound, it will take along, long time and I think have to take place naturally and organically, like it grew and expanded originally, and look how long that took. As I said before, you can't hold a gun to someone's head and make them like and want to build a model airplane, and todays kids can be easily overruled by their parents if they won't commit to and support their interests.
 
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
  Who has been there and done all of that!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2024, 06:21:17 AM by Dan McEntee »
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Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2024, 02:42:26 PM »
Well, Dan,

What can I say..

I'm thankful you took the time to write all of that out, with well reasoned points and experience to back it up.

I appreciate well structured, thought out argument, rather than emotional knee jerk response.

And I do not have the life left nor the inclination to repeat the process just to learn the same lessons you learned because I was too stubborn to take good advice.

You likely just saved me a ton of effort, time and frustration.

With that I'll just be happy with what we have, go fly my airplanes and have fun while I'm still able to do so.

Thanks again..

Mark


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Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2024, 02:48:37 PM »
Mark,
I may have you covered already.  Here is a shot of a little flat winged trainer based on My Shark designs.  We used it to get a bunch of boy scouts flying.  The photos show the top and bottom of each.  The electric motor powers the larger plane really well, the easy equivalent of a 290 port Golden Bee.  It Swings a 6-4 prop with ease.  In fact, the motor inspired me to build a 595" B-17G with four of these.  It is capable of flying the full stunt pattern with the electric motors.  Back to the subject.  Call me at (208) 871-9031 and we can talk.
Pat

Pat, I am interested having something like this on hand. I am the control line instructor for Woodland Aero Modelers, but I don't currently have a club trainer plane, so when we do have Boy Scouts or a Club Open house I haven't had anything to use.. I was going to mock up a Flite Streak Trainier, but the kit I got from eBay was completely warped.

So I'm not going to go down the curriculum route and do the ICHE convention, etc.. Dan McEntee added some cogent perspective on that whole idea..  But I am interested in getting a plane or two from you.
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2024, 03:58:26 PM »
  I guess it was about time for this to come around on the play list again. It is not a new subject or problem. I can show you editorials and letters to the editor in the old magazines about getting kids involved and new blood into the hobby going all the way back to the late 1940s and early 50s. Also complaints about how the then new feature of a lot of kits having pre-shaped and machined balsa parts as not fitting into the Builder of the Model Rule!!. I have been down all the roads that you mention. I volunteered at the Kid Venture venue at Oshkosh for 17 years, and I have had thousands, yes literally thousands of kids on the handle of a 1/2A control line model there and also at our local flying field. Spent many, many hours talking to people and to kids of all ages.  I helped design the trainer we used which we called the TuffBaby, which was built largely from hardware store materials Coreplast plastic ans strips of hardwood and powered by a Norvel .061. We went this route because one thing that people would ask us is where they could buy the airplane, and since it wasn't commercially produced, we would email out plans for it free of charge.  It is more or less indestructible and of the 5 we built and took to KidVenture in 2010, at least 4 are still flying. I also keep a smaller trainer powered by a Cox .049 Black Widow made from Coreplast and yard stick fuselage that is based on SIG 1/2A Skyray outlines and it flies quite well, is fairly aerobatic and weighs less than a Cox PT-19 and is also indestructible. I take these with me frequently to the Buder Park flying field in case an interested party shows some interest and I can have them airborne with one in a matter of minutes . I have had hundreds of people, kids and adults, on the handle there also. The common thing amongst all of this is that rarely, almost never, has anyone come back or contacted me with any further interest.

  At Oshkosh, people will line up and wait in line to fly a 1/2A trainer primarily because it's free. I have met many, many adults that flew C/L models as kids but their kids showed no interest. And this is at a venue that is the worlds largest airshow and aviation convention and is a week long!! People have to be interested in airplanes if they are there! It has to start with some one having that little "something" inside them that makes them stop and look up at any kind of airplane that might be flying over when they hear it. I can't explain why that is lacking in kids these days, or adults either for that matter. But if there is one thing I think I have figured out after a lifetime of building , flying and demonstrating models airplanes of all kinds, is that you CAN NOT make some one want to get involved in this hobby. They have to want to get involved, and have to have that little "something" or "spark" inside them.

   I am also convinced at this point in life that the focus does not need to be on kids. Kids just have too many other easy things to do that distract them and are more instant gratification, also called cell phones and Ipads. We didn't have this when we were kids, and neither did the kinds of the 70s, 80s, 90s and up until the computer age and electronic game came into full swing in the early 2000s. I firmly believe that the target for any new blood should be the 20 and 30 something adults with kids. If you get a Dad or Mom interested that might have had some exposure to the hobby in their younger days, and now they have the house, job, bank account and minivan/SUV that it will require, you will also get their kids!! If a kid sees what we do and gets interested, he can quickly get over ruled by the parents for any one of many reasons. Too expensive, not enough time, too much involvement in stick and ball sports already, etc., etc.  I have been down that rabbit hole already We have given away airplanes, engines, kits and such and maybe a kid comes back out once or twice when the parents see fit to bring them, but then disappear never to be seen again. What happened to the airplanes, kits and engines?? Who knows, probably in the landfill by now. I have done countless Scout Blue and Gold banquets and gave talks and demonstrated indoor rubber powered models at these and had R/C, C/L and free flight models displayed at each one. People seemed impressed but there was never any follow up from any one attending. I did these at the same schools and churches for years because I didn't charge anything and all I ever got out of it was a chicken dinner. But if someone were to contact me today, I would still jump at the chance to do it, just in case i could get one family interested. But i haven't been contacted by any of these organizations in years. Do they even do these any more? Look at the state of Scouting these days, and you have to wonder if that is  main cause.

   So yep, everything you have mentioned, I have been down those avenues of endeavor. I live in the St. Louis area, and this area has always been hit hard by economic downturns going way back. When companies cut back or even close down, people leave the area and take their next generation with them. I saw many examples of this when I first hit the stunt contest circuit and ran into many people that used to live here but had to leave when their Dad or parents had to in order to find a new job. Some areas benefitted from that same situation. While the club I was a member of has been shrinking due to deaths, retirements with relocation, and simply ageing out of interest and ability to do it, others were growing a bit because the retirees were moving there. Lots of guys went to the Dallas, Texas area for one, but I think Father Time is starting to catch up with those also. One modern convenience that helps a bit is the computer and the internet with saving some data and information from being completely extinct and make for some kind of low level participation and ability to stay in contact with old friends.

    I have even gone the Science Olympiad route in it's early days, and that of the Minds Eye STEM competitions. I worked at a local hobby shop for over 35 years, and who knows how many people I talked to and counseled in that amount of time and on all disciplines. The bridge builders were first. We would get huge bundles of 1/8" square balsa from SIG to sell to these kids. I coached one teacher who would listen intently when I talked to him into building structures well within the rules that simply would not fail under the weights used at the competitions. I feel I am responsible for about half the rules that they developed along the way as to what could and could not be done!! But it really was all basic model building skills that I taught them such as proper fit up of parts and tight glues joints, double gluing the ends of the parts, picking and choosing proper density wood for specific parts of the structure and so on. He really did go to several competitions and had structures that held over 200 pounds and had the official scratching their heads trying to figure out what was different and what they should outlaw next!! I thought this might lead into models but didn't. The Science Olympiad thing started about the same time and kids came in asking questions about what they needed and how to build and I told them all the same basic steps, and some of them did quite well at at it, but once it was over, that was it, they never came back to see what might be next, and yes I did mention other areas of the hobby and how this all would apply to them. They just simply never came back.

   I still believe that there are people out there that may be interested, but after all this time I have no idea what it would take to reach them. I think it is kind of a regional thing, worse in some parts of the country and better in others I think some people aren't interested in or understand the time it takes to progress in the hobby from the raw beginner stages. The kids of 20 years ago are the adults and parents of kids today so what have you got to work with. People of today are just plain different, (no pun intended) and I don't know what you can do about that. I think people will still participate in the model airplane hobby in some way as long as they have access to materials and supplies. I have all I need, and my son Sean is still active in free flight and flies C/L whenever he comes home. He lives in the Colorado Springs area and there is no one in that area that flies C/L, but it is also home to the Magnificent Mountain Men free flight club and a very good outdoor free flight site. He has been down a lot of the same roads I have mentioned already also trying to get people interested, engaged, and involved. He parlayed his modeling experience into a career in the Army flying SUAVs as an extension of the hobby, and through that has made a wide network of friends across the country and I think I have enough stuff for him also!! As far as stunt is concerned, I think internationally, it will become like R/C pattern where everyone flies the same look alike airplane with the same powerplant. I think we will stand alone here in the US as the lone holdout of the Builder of the Model rule for the NATS. Local contests have all but dried up from lack of attendance and membership of the clubs to run them.  If things are going to rebound, it will take along, long time and I think have to take place naturally and organically, like it grew and expanded originally, and look how long that took. As I said before, you can't hold a gun to someone's head and make them like and want to build a model airplane, and todays kids can be easily overruled by their parents if they won't commit to and support their interests.
 
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
  Who has been there and done all of that!
Dan an interesting read.....I haven't really gone the organized event route you did but I have sure attempted to take MANY under wing over the years and provided them with engines and airplanes, etc. only to have nearly every one vanish into the ether with the stuff and never return.  My only real modelers-made ended up being two son's in law and they are truly committed to the sport.   They are now my flying/travel partners and I'm grateful for them.  I have pretty much given up on recruiting but I do have a couple trainers I keep around and occasionally carry to the flying field in the event someone happens by showing interest.  I've mused that one needs to have the model airplane 'gene' to become really involved and these are as rare as albinos these days.  You can't force your interest upon someone else.  They get it or they don't.  And,  as I alluded to earlier,  if you get folks interested then what?   Where do you send them for kits, engines etc. that are reasonably priced when they aren't even sure how much they want to do this?  Ebay I guess.  These days you need a Rolodex (yes I remember those) of where to mail order , glue, dope, and just about everything it takes to build an airplane and the stuff needed to fly it.   Can you convince people all this is worth the effort to fly a model airplane once in a while?  You'd have to be a pretty good salesman.

Dave
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Offline Rusty

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2024, 11:11:12 PM »
  I guess it was about time for this to come around on the play list again. It is not a new subject or problem. I can show you editorials and letters to the editor in the old magazines about getting kids involved and new blood into the hobby going all the way back to the late 1940s and early 50s. Also complaints about how the then new feature of a lot of kits having pre-shaped and machined balsa parts as not fitting into the Builder of the Model Rule!!. I have been down all the roads that you mention. I volunteered at the Kid Venture venue at Oshkosh for 17 years, and I have had thousands, yes literally thousands of kids on the handle of a 1/2A control line model there and also at our local flying field. Spent many, many hours talking to people and to kids of all ages.  I helped design the trainer we used which we called the TuffBaby, which was built largely from hardware store materials Coreplast plastic ans strips of hardwood and powered by a Norvel .061. We went this route because one thing that people would ask us is where they could buy the airplane, and since it wasn't commercially produced, we would email out plans for it free of charge.  It is more or less indestructible and of the 5 we built and took to KidVenture in 2010, at least 4 are still flying. I also keep a smaller trainer powered by a Cox .049 Black Widow made from Coreplast and yard stick fuselage that is based on SIG 1/2A Skyray outlines and it flies quite well, is fairly aerobatic and weighs less than a Cox PT-19 and is also indestructible. I take these with me frequently to the Buder Park flying field in case an interested party shows some interest and I can have them airborne with one in a matter of minutes . I have had hundreds of people, kids and adults, on the handle there also. The common thing amongst all of this is that rarely, almost never, has anyone come back or contacted me with any further interest.

  At Oshkosh, people will line up and wait in line to fly a 1/2A trainer primarily because it's free. I have met many, many adults that flew C/L models as kids but their kids showed no interest. And this is at a venue that is the worlds largest airshow and aviation convention and is a week long!! People have to be interested in airplanes if they are there! It has to start with some one having that little "something" inside them that makes them stop and look up at any kind of airplane that might be flying over when they hear it. I can't explain why that is lacking in kids these days, or adults either for that matter. But if there is one thing I think I have figured out after a lifetime of building , flying and demonstrating models airplanes of all kinds, is that you CAN NOT make some one want to get involved in this hobby. They have to want to get involved, and have to have that little "something" or "spark" inside them.

   I am also convinced at this point in life that the focus does not need to be on kids. Kids just have too many other easy things to do that distract them and are more instant gratification, also called cell phones and Ipads. We didn't have this when we were kids, and neither did the kinds of the 70s, 80s, 90s and up until the computer age and electronic game came into full swing in the early 2000s. I firmly believe that the target for any new blood should be the 20 and 30 something adults with kids. If you get a Dad or Mom interested that might have had some exposure to the hobby in their younger days, and now they have the house, job, bank account and minivan/SUV that it will require, you will also get their kids!! If a kid sees what we do and gets interested, he can quickly get over ruled by the parents for any one of many reasons. Too expensive, not enough time, too much involvement in stick and ball sports already, etc., etc.  I have been down that rabbit hole already We have given away airplanes, engines, kits and such and maybe a kid comes back out once or twice when the parents see fit to bring them, but then disappear never to be seen again. What happened to the airplanes, kits and engines?? Who knows, probably in the landfill by now. I have done countless Scout Blue and Gold banquets and gave talks and demonstrated indoor rubber powered models at these and had R/C, C/L and free flight models displayed at each one. People seemed impressed but there was never any follow up from any one attending. I did these at the same schools and churches for years because I didn't charge anything and all I ever got out of it was a chicken dinner. But if someone were to contact me today, I would still jump at the chance to do it, just in case i could get one family interested. But i haven't been contacted by any of these organizations in years. Do they even do these any more? Look at the state of Scouting these days, and you have to wonder if that is  main cause.

   So yep, everything you have mentioned, I have been down those avenues of endeavor. I live in the St. Louis area, and this area has always been hit hard by economic downturns going way back. When companies cut back or even close down, people leave the area and take their next generation with them. I saw many examples of this when I first hit the stunt contest circuit and ran into many people that used to live here but had to leave when their Dad or parents had to in order to find a new job. Some areas benefitted from that same situation. While the club I was a member of has been shrinking due to deaths, retirements with relocation, and simply ageing out of interest and ability to do it, others were growing a bit because the retirees were moving there. Lots of guys went to the Dallas, Texas area for one, but I think Father Time is starting to catch up with those also. One modern convenience that helps a bit is the computer and the internet with saving some data and information from being completely extinct and make for some kind of low level participation and ability to stay in contact with old friends.

    I have even gone the Science Olympiad route in it's early days, and that of the Minds Eye STEM competitions. I worked at a local hobby shop for over 35 years, and who knows how many people I talked to and counseled in that amount of time and on all disciplines. The bridge builders were first. We would get huge bundles of 1/8" square balsa from SIG to sell to these kids. I coached one teacher who would listen intently when I talked to him into building structures well within the rules that simply would not fail under the weights used at the competitions. I feel I am responsible for about half the rules that they developed along the way as to what could and could not be done!! But it really was all basic model building skills that I taught them such as proper fit up of parts and tight glues joints, double gluing the ends of the parts, picking and choosing proper density wood for specific parts of the structure and so on. He really did go to several competitions and had structures that held over 200 pounds and had the official scratching their heads trying to figure out what was different and what they should outlaw next!! I thought this might lead into models but didn't. The Science Olympiad thing started about the same time and kids came in asking questions about what they needed and how to build and I told them all the same basic steps, and some of them did quite well at at it, but once it was over, that was it, they never came back to see what might be next, and yes I did mention other areas of the hobby and how this all would apply to them. They just simply never came back.

   I still believe that there are people out there that may be interested, but after all this time I have no idea what it would take to reach them. I think it is kind of a regional thing, worse in some parts of the country and better in others I think some people aren't interested in or understand the time it takes to progress in the hobby from the raw beginner stages. The kids of 20 years ago are the adults and parents of kids today so what have you got to work with. People of today are just plain different, (no pun intended) and I don't know what you can do about that. I think people will still participate in the model airplane hobby in some way as long as they have access to materials and supplies. I have all I need, and my son Sean is still active in free flight and flies C/L whenever he comes home. He lives in the Colorado Springs area and there is no one in that area that flies C/L, but it is also home to the Magnificent Mountain Men free flight club and a very good outdoor free flight site. He has been down a lot of the same roads I have mentioned already also trying to get people interested, engaged, and involved. He parlayed his modeling experience into a career in the Army flying SUAVs as an extension of the hobby, and through that has made a wide network of friends across the country and I think I have enough stuff for him also!! As far as stunt is concerned, I think internationally, it will become like R/C pattern where everyone flies the same look alike airplane with the same powerplant. I think we will stand alone here in the US as the lone holdout of the Builder of the Model rule for the NATS. Local contests have all but dried up from lack of attendance and membership of the clubs to run them.  If things are going to rebound, it will take along, long time and I think have to take place naturally and organically, like it grew and expanded originally, and look how long that took. As I said before, you can't hold a gun to someone's head and make them like and want to build a model airplane, and todays kids can be easily overruled by their parents if they won't commit to and support their interests.
 
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
  Who has been there and done all of that!

I agree with games diverting attention from models.  In the 1980s I got one of the first Atari 2600 consoles.  It was the first home game system that was close to arcade machines, like Donkey Kong, Pac Man, etc.   It was enjoyable because it took real skill to master.  Then came the Coleco Vision console, which was even better.    Then in the early 90s came PCs.  I remember having a 486 with early windows.  A really great and difficult game was "DOOM."  DOOM 1 and 2 was intense and took a lot of quick reflexes and memorization of the controls.  The graphics and sound were amazing for the time.   Then around 2000 the Sony Play Station 1 came out.  It had Grand Turismo, which was light years improvement over any home game that far.  That consumed a lot of my evening, building time.   Even today, my RC simulator takes time away from actual models.   I really think it is ALL  good because it keeps your reflexes sharp, helps your memory and is FUN.

I started flying models in 1962.  It was much easier then to participate in modeling then because there was numerous hobby shops and clubs with people who, like Dan, would help.  Today, in my area, there isn't any shops and very few with any ability to build even an ARF.   

I think the future is bleak.  The pockets of places where there is CL activity may continue, but outside of that, NO.  Who is going to go online to Brodak and order all the stuff to fly CL and attempt to build and fly with no help or experience?

Then one has to look at the cost vs reality.   Kits that used to 4.95 are now near 200.00.  Engines are getting hard to find in new condition.  Fuel is astronomical in price.   

If I didn't start young and have a lot of stuff, obtained when it was reasonable, I would not start the hobby. 

Recently, I GAVE a doctor a Mark's Models P51 kit, engine and some supplies.   I spent HOURS coaching him and helping him to build it.  He won't fly it, saying he spent too much time and money on it to just crash it.   I gave the club vice president a GB Hobbies, Wild Thing 15 kit, building board, T pins, wax paper, covering, iron, exacto knife, etc.  He never tried to build it.   I offered to give other club members a kit.  No takers.   They want Eflight foam planes that a plug and play.

Sadly, I think CL is never going to be what it was in the day.   There will be no MCLGA. 




Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2024, 12:00:15 AM »
I really don't want to rain on anybody's parade here but why all the doom and gloom?  So what if there is no one to take up the endless pursuit of the perfect pattern.  We will all still be trying as long as we are here.  We should not be so focused on pulling people into the hobby that we are instead driving people who show interest out.  Can you imagine the effect on someone who shows a spark of interest finding this thread?  How many active fliers read this and start to say "what is the point"?  Somehow, we have forgotten that we do this because it gives US pleasure and satisfaction, not because it is the popular thing to do.  So don't worry if the hobby as we know it survives past our rapidly approaching departure.  Enjoy it and each other until that day comes.

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Offline Perry Rose

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2024, 05:53:19 AM »
Until the control line hobby is buy and fly the hobby will stagnate.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2024, 07:00:33 AM »
Until the control line hobby is buy and fly the hobby will stagnate.
There is some merit to this.   There will be some who will buy ready-made airplanes and fly them.  But then there has been some of that in the past and it didn't last well enough to support itself.   Think Cox and Wen Mac.   Now it would take marketing at Walmart and Target.   The investment would be enormous and little assurance of payback.   Also I'd bet the corporate lawyers would have a say in it when they discover the past major lawsuits that nearly killed control line in the seventies when a kid died by hitting power lines with his airplane.  The insurance liability is huge.  Anything short of major mass production would I think still leave the cost pretty high.   You might stand a chance with a foamy,  electric about Ringmaster size or less flown on fishing line.

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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2024, 08:23:47 AM »
There is some merit to this.   There will be some who will buy ready-made airplanes and fly them.  But then there has been some of that in the past and it didn't last well enough to support itself.   Think Cox and Wen Mac.   Now it would take marketing at Walmart and Target.   The investment would be enormous and little assurance of payback.   Also I'd bet the corporate lawyers would have a say in it when they discover the past major lawsuits that nearly killed control line in the seventies when a kid died by hitting power lines with his airplane.  The insurance liability is huge.  Anything short of major mass production would I think still leave the cost pretty high.   You might stand a chance with a foamy,  electric about Ringmaster size or less flown on fishing line.

Dave

        If any type of new product offering were to materialize, it would depend on one thing, and that is people WANTING and looking for something like that. The main credo of a successful business is "supply and DEMAND."  The demand for any product goes hand in hand with customer interest. A great example of this was the Bratco Skybaby and Hexdrone plastic RTF airplanes that came out in the late 90's or early 2000's. I had heard and read a small blurb about these coming on the market in a hobby retailer magazine at the time. At the SIG contest that year, some guys from the company were there from the company with examples of each for us to test fly. They really thought they had something new and unique. The Skybaby was a large model powered by the Norvel .061. The construction was vacu-formed shells that were glued together, and this is what the company reps thought was innovative, but were stone faced when I told them that Cox had a model like this , the TD-3, back in the late 50's and it was very short lived because it was too fragile. It turns out that the Skybaby was like a flying eggshell also. It would fly fairly well, and was mildly aerobatic, but as we discovered at Oshkosh, they could not survive the slightest impact. SIG was the main distributor of these, and sales were worse that dismal. They were listing at a street price of $125 and their main competition was Cox who were still offering the PT-19 and a few other models for $75 to $85 and already had an established market. The best thing about the airplane was the Norvel .061 engine but people had problems with those also, and production ceased and SIG pulled them from the market. They donated the remaining stock to the KidVenture program, and we figured out how to beef them up and repair them so we could get more that two flights out of them.  We had one guy ( the late Art Johnson ) who's main task was to prepare the airplanes for use and repair them after a crash. When we developed the TuffBaby trainer, we reused the engines on those with great success. The Hexdrone delta/combat style model was just hideous, if you have ever tried to fly one you know what I mean. I could barely keep up with the controls and there was nothing stable about the design, and again, the only decent thing about it was the Norvel .061 engine. The current thought among many people is that something powered by an electric power plant would be ideal, but i think would would suffer from some of the same problems as all the others, and again, there has to be some kind of demand for it, and that gets back to customer interest. I have been watching this trend from both the flying field and from behind the counter at the hobby shop until I retired from there in 2015. The shop I worked at has done a pretty good job of adapting with current trends and such and is still in business but is nothing like it was when I worked there. The R/C department is mostly Traxxis other brands of R/C cars and some boats. They have not stocked a balsa R/C kit of engine of any kind in a long time, and have the foam RTF planes to satisfy that end of the hobby. No C/L stuff and just a few Guillows kits and a half empty balsa rack.  It's gonna take some sort of big society change to get people back involved with any kind of hobby, and who knows what that would take and how long or how many generations that would take. But that is just my observation from looking at this closely for a long, long time.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
   
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2024, 08:38:36 AM »
Well, Dan,

What can I say..

I'm thankful you took the time to write all of that out, with well reasoned points and experience to back it up.

I appreciate well structured, thought out argument, rather than emotional knee jerk response.

And I do not have the life left nor the inclination to repeat the process just to learn the same lessons you learned because I was too stubborn to take good advice.

You likely just saved me a ton of effort, time and frustration.

With that I'll just be happy with what we have, go fly my airplanes and have fun while I'm still able to do so.

Thanks again..

Mark

     Well, it certainly was not my intention to discourage you from what you have in mind, I just thought it best to point out that some of us have already been there. You said that you were out of the hobby for a while and just getting back to it, and there is a lot that you have missed out on. I did not come to my conclusions over night.  Like I mentioned, things may be different where you are, and it may indeed be a regional thing, but from what I know of the Chicago area clubs they are not too much different from what we have experienced. You have a much larger population up there to draw from than we do. I haven't 100% given up, just not as enthusiastic about it as I used to be. These days I want to see some kind of commitment from any person that shows interest. I have a whole lot more runway behind me than I have in front of me, and do not feel that wasting any time is in my best interest!! I kind of crash landed and slid backwards into retirement due to the pandemic and still figuring things out, but I think it's time for me to pay attention to me for a while! I wish I could have a better view of even the smallest possibilities of getting some new blood involved, and like I said, I haven't fully given up on trying, just getting old, tired and slowing down these days.
  Type at youlater,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline Rusty

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2024, 08:41:32 AM »
I agree with Ken and that is exactly what I am doing.  I am using what I have the best I can.  What happens after that, is up to the estate sale company. 

Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2024, 09:04:09 AM »
" I want to see some kind of commitment from any person that shows interest. "

I think that is a good litmus test..

I was on the phone this morning with Mark Feist, Associate VP of AMA District III (Ohio) whom I had met at the Nats..
He was telling me about the kids that his R/C Club was helping.. He explained further that it was an organic group that was started by two kids who were already in the club.  They contacted their friends, set up a Slack group, and they meet every Saturday at 10:00 to build and/or fly..

When it got to about ten kids they asked the club if they could form a group and if the club would consider purchasing a trainer.. So the club spent $500 and bought a trainer for them. The kids then combined their funds and bought a couple of Old School Model Works R/C kits and are building those.. They had 17 involved by the time of the Nats.. Mark told me this morning they now have 25.. This is in the Cincinnati area.

There are a couple of distinctives here:
- It was started and has been grown entirely by the kids.
- The Dads are involved, but not the ones driving this.
- It is R/C, and given that most hobby shops themselves if they carry airplanes at all they are R/C ARFs, so the kids have some awareness of what is out there.
Most hobby shop folks I've talked to lately have never even heard of control line.

But the main point here is that there is a "Want to" in the kids themselves and they are driving this.
And before you can have "Want to" you have to know it even exists..


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Online Dave Harmon

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2024, 01:43:42 PM »

There are a couple of distinctives here:
- It was started and has been grown entirely by the kids.
- The Dads are involved, but not the ones driving this.

But the main point here is that there is a "Want to" in the kids themselves and they are driving this.


Yesterday I had thought pretty much the same thing but I was not going to comment because I thought I might be a bit too far outta the box.

I remembered back to the early 50's in the Tulsa area that it was the KIDS that were driving OTHER KIDS into model airplanes in general.
R/C was not reliable enough even for 'grownups'...not even considering the increased expense.
Free flight was certainly possible but....most of us did not have a ride to the field.
That left control line!

My mentors were guys like Charles Gilliland and Jack Hamilton who were only 3 years older than myself and were incredible modelers.
Determined guys like me were driven by guys like them...I went over to Charles house a couple blocks away every single day of summer in 55', 56' and 57' watching like a hawk how he scratch built those free flight models....he won the 58' NATS in BC Senior Free Flight.
Model Airplane News March 1958 page 45.
Of course he flew c/l as well and we all flew a LOT on Tulsa vacant lots back then.

There were other young experienced guys around here who were mentoring other young INEXPERIENCED guys...like me...and a good many are still building and flying.
Charles is still around and still has that 4' tall 58' NATS trophy...saw it a couple of years ago.

I should also say that....there were NO parents or grownups involved back then other than the hobby shop owner...Harold F 'Bud' Marr.
Bud did not have any kids and he made it possible to have a well stocked shop and took us to several C/L contests in his station wagon.
A contest in Ft. Smith near the FOX Mfg company location....comes to mind.

So yeah Mark....you're right....we WANTED TO.....


Offline realSteveSmith

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2024, 02:07:45 PM »
There are still 'model airplane people' being born and created in 2024.  The big question is, what is the value proposition for control line these days?  Put another way, if someone does have the desire to get involved with aero modeling, why would they choose CL over something like RC these days?

I have my own ideas here but I wanted to hear what others say to this question.
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2024, 02:23:25 PM »
        If any type of new product offering were to materialize, it would depend on one thing, and that is people WANTING and looking for something like that. The main credo of a successful business is "supply and DEMAND."  The demand for any product goes hand in hand with customer interest. A great example of this was the Bratco Skybaby and Hexdrone plastic RTF airplanes that came out in the late 90's or early 2000's. I had heard and read a small blurb about these coming on the market in a hobby retailer magazine at the time. At the SIG contest that year, some guys from the company were there from the company with examples of each for us to test fly. They really thought they had something new and unique. The Skybaby was a large model powered by the Norvel .061. The construction was vacu-formed shells that were glued together, and this is what the company reps thought was innovative, but were stone faced when I told them that Cox had a model like this , the TD-3, back in the late 50's and it was very short lived because it was too fragile. It turns out that the Skybaby was like a flying eggshell also. It would fly fairly well, and was mildly aerobatic, but as we discovered at Oshkosh, they could not survive the slightest impact. SIG was the main distributor of these, and sales were worse that dismal. They were listing at a street price of $125 and their main competition was Cox who were still offering the PT-19 and a few other models for $75 to $85 and already had an established market. The best thing about the airplane was the Norvel .061 engine but people had problems with those also, and production ceased and SIG pulled them from the market. They donated the remaining stock to the KidVenture program, and we figured out how to beef them up and repair them so we could get more that two flights out of them.  We had one guy ( the late Art Johnson ) who's main task was to prepare the airplanes for use and repair them after a crash. When we developed the TuffBaby trainer, we reused the engines on those with great success. The Hexdrone delta/combat style model was just hideous, if you have ever tried to fly one you know what I mean. I could barely keep up with the controls and there was nothing stable about the design, and again, the only decent thing about it was the Norvel .061 engine. The current thought among many people is that something powered by an electric power plant would be ideal, but i think would would suffer from some of the same problems as all the others, and again, there has to be some kind of demand for it, and that gets back to customer interest. I have been watching this trend from both the flying field and from behind the counter at the hobby shop until I retired from there in 2015. The shop I worked at has done a pretty good job of adapting with current trends and such and is still in business but is nothing like it was when I worked there. The R/C department is mostly Traxxis other brands of R/C cars and some boats. They have not stocked a balsa R/C kit of engine of any kind in a long time, and have the foam RTF planes to satisfy that end of the hobby. No C/L stuff and just a few Guillows kits and a half empty balsa rack.  It's gonna take some sort of big society change to get people back involved with any kind of hobby, and who knows what that would take and how long or how many generations that would take. But that is just my observation from looking at this closely for a long, long time.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
 
I had suggested the electric route, not that I'd prefer it, but there are no engines to speak of being made today that would be suitable and the fuel issue.   Beginners don't want to buy gallons of fuel-if they can find- nor mix it themselves.   Also electric might be more acceptable noise-wise on the school ground or park.

Dave
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Offline Colin McRae

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2024, 05:57:40 PM »
why would they choose CL over something like RC these days?



I fly with guys that fly both RC and CL. They like them both. One is not better than the other, just a totally different experience. A newbie to CL just has to have the chance to fly CL a few times with some type of basic trainer. So they can 'feel' the model in the air.

Our club has a 25-size solid wing profile trainer. But we use a very small 1 oz fuel tank so it does not fly very long. Just a minute or so in the air. Any more than that and the new pilot will surely get too dizzy.

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2024, 06:06:11 PM »
Mark R: please don't let anybody interested in CL read this thread.  What a downer!

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2024, 06:08:26 PM »
I had suggested the electric route, not that I'd prefer it, but there are no engines to speak of being made today that would be suitable and the fuel issue.   Beginners don't want to buy gallons of fuel-if they can find- nor mix it themselves.   Also electric might be more acceptable noise-wise on the school ground or park.

Dave

      The electric power plant is viable, but offers it's own protocol for proper feeding and care. Cox models came with or required the simple starter kit, and if the directions were followed, it all worked and was relatively safe. I would think that you want an electric power system that would at least equal what a Cox .049 puts out so that would require a lithium battery, charger and motor to fit that bill. Think about what previous FRT electric models have been like, from the Stanzel Electromic to the carious early attempts that Cox put out. You want some performance that is better than that.  Proper use of the charger and battery and storage when not in use is the big thing here. I just keep thinking of all the videos of fires started by people charging hover boards, electric bikes, lawn and garden equipment and the like. People are burning their houses down by not reading instructions and heading warnings. I know most would look on a control line model as a toy airplane and not give it the respect it deserves to stay safe. I saw it at the hobby shop with NiCads and Nickle metal hydride batteries for R/V vehicles, abusing the batteries by over charging and causing melt downs, and you know lithium batteries could be much worse. I dealt with people at work on how to use and charge material handling equipment with lead acid batteries. Trying to use a device while it's being charged it asking for disaster. It took a battery in an electric pallet truck exploding in the bindery one day before anyone would listen to me. Have you ever seen a car battery blow up when it was charged improperly or the alternator in the car stuck and the owner ignored it? There was a discussion on FB one day this week about whether a cell phone charger could start a fire or not. I would wager it would, if the user spent a lot of time talking and using the phone while connected, and pulling all the current that the phone required through the charger and cord and did that often enough to damage the charger. They can get quite warm when doing that. It's just that there are people out there that could screw up a 2 car funeral and they are starting to outnumber the rest that have any common sense!! But it's like you said, who is going to make the investment and do the research and development on something like this in an unknown market. I would be tickled to see it happen, really I would, but I just don't see it happening.

  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2024, 06:25:51 PM »
" I want to see some kind of commitment from any person that shows interest. "

I think that is a good litmus test..

I was on the phone this morning with Mark Feist, Associate VP of AMA District III (Ohio) whom I had met at the Nats..
He was telling me about the kids that his R/C Club was helping.. He explained further that it was an organic group that was started by two kids who were already in the club.  They contacted their friends, set up a Slack group, and they meet every Saturday at 10:00 to build and/or fly..

When it got to about ten kids they asked the club if they could form a group and if the club would consider purchasing a trainer.. So the club spent $500 and bought a trainer for them. The kids then combined their funds and bought a couple of Old School Model Works R/C kits and are building those.. They had 17 involved by the time of the Nats.. Mark told me this morning they now have 25.. This is in the Cincinnati area.

There are a couple of distinctives here:
- It was started and has been grown entirely by the kids.
- The Dads are involved, but not the ones driving this.
- It is R/C, and given that most hobby shops themselves if they carry airplanes at all they are R/C ARFs, so the kids have some awareness of what is out there.
Most hobby shop folks I've talked to lately have never even heard of control line.

But the main point here is that there is a "Want to" in the kids themselves and they are driving this.
And before you can have "Want to" you have to know it even exists..

    This is good to hear, and really is to the point I was trying to make. This is the way it would have to grow. It's no surprise that it's R/C oriented, as that is what grabs most people, no matter what the age. I really don't care, as it's at least getting them involved, and then they can discover and explore the other disciplines as they go along. But here is the real thing to look for,,,,,,,,,, continuity. It's great that the students are the main driver behind it, that helps a lot, but check back in another 5 years and see where it stands then and who is still engaged and involved once the newness and uniqueness has worn off. Do they have the desire and curiosity to to keep at it?? A key ingredient now is the same as when I first tried to build a model when I was 5 years old in 1960. I thought airplanes were cool ( actually I thought they were "neato!!" ) and I wanted to build one!! Is there a way to make it cool, or rad and gnarly or whatever the current terms people use to describe what they like??

  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2024, 08:35:36 PM »
Then there is also the other draw, as a former boss of mine used to say: "He's discovered cars and girls"..
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2024, 04:23:40 AM »
My three kids were all active in control line to varying degrees, none are active. One was a multi time Nats Scale Champion, one just soloed her Stunter, and one was another Scale competitor that went on to fly RC which he still does.
Dan has been a great worker for the hobby.
I get enthused and compete in Stunt for periods and then have tapered off through the years.
Chris…

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2024, 09:07:53 AM »
Mark R: please don't let anybody interested in CL read this thread.  What a downer!

   As the old saying goes, "it is what it is."  This is the reality these days. You might not remember, but lots of people, including Mark R., thought C/L was dead in the late 70's to early 80s. Then a generation or former participants retired and these guys rediscovered what they had in their basements and attics, and the fire was rekindled and then burst into a flame! Look at the attendance of VSC as an indicator. Look at what it was in it's first year, along with other contest attendance and results in the same time period. We road a pretty big wave of growth for the next 30 years fuels by a lot of the people who were there in the early days. Some people on the sidelines saw the fun we were having and jumped on the wagon, and then got off further down the road. Then, Father Time started to catch up, and we are where we are today. If some kind of turnaround does happen, regardless of how long it might take, a whole new industry needs to be rebuilt as far as suppliers. Look at all the manufacturers and former giants of the hobby industry that are gone now. That's gonna be damn hard to replace, and I don't think Brodak could handle things by themselves. These posts that I have made are just my opinion, but it's based on my experiences and observations in many levels, and I wish that it were not this way, but like the saying that I started this thread out with, "It is what it is."

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2024, 10:41:57 AM »
Scott I have always admired your optimism and the spirit in which you wish to look at situations.  However I also feel you can't be blind to what is in front of us.  The hobby has risen and fallen in waves for as long as I've been involved (60+ years) but now it is quite different than before.   As Dan pointed out now there are few to no sources of supplies left to work with and frankly with no substantial market. Who would want to start up a business dedicated to what we have left.  It's not just control line.   RC is actually a shadow of what it was in terms of airplanes..   I'm not too close to it but I'd have to say free flight can't be much better if for no other reason than there are very few possible places available to fly them.  I live in Kansas of all places-the Great Plains- but the few locals have to drive nearly three hours to a suitable recognized flying site for free flight.   If the other parts of the hobby were still healthy so then the hobby industry itself would also be.  Instead it's virtually dead save for a few garage operators who do it mostly as an extension of their own hobby enjoyment.  Are we done?  NO.  As long as there are we few who love what we do and support what we have left then the hobby will go on awhile longer.   If we can sprout a few new buds on the way and find ways to encourage and support the efforts then lets for sure do that!   It just seems a little foolhardy to think a new revival is just ahead.   There is nothing we can see to support that.   Experience tells us something different.

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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2024, 10:46:39 AM »
Like I said: please don't let anyone read this thread that might be interested in CL.....

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2024, 10:56:07 AM »
Then there is also the other draw, as a former boss of mine used to say: "He's discovered cars and girls"..
I was lucky in my early romantic distractions.  I discovered a girl with a car!  She liked going flying with me.  Should have kept her, we would have had a female on several US teams.

Ken
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Offline Mark Romanowitz

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2024, 12:06:23 PM »
I spoke with Mark Feist this morning.
He has been asked to look into member retention and growth.

He told me we have been averaging 12,000 new AMA members over the past several years, but there has been only a 19% retention rate beyond 2 years.

The issue is people are not connecting with clubs.

He said when as new member connects with a club, that retention rate goes up to 90%.

So.. He has been asked to try to fix that problem..

I don't have time to add more, need to go to an appointment, but I thought that would be a good piece of info to add to the discussion..

Mark
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Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2024, 03:41:53 PM »
I wish I could be more optimistic about the future of CL, or model aviation in general, but there is nothing to convince me to be optimistic.

Things are very different today, as has been mentioned.  When I was a kid, we rode our bicycles to the nearby fields and parks to play baseball.  Or, we walked there, carrying our planes and flight boxes.  We had no internet, no social media, no video games, to entertain us.  We did just fine with what we had and we had a great time.

One time, some years ago, while visiting family, I was flying alone, off a stooge, at a park near where I grew up.  Several boys rode up on bicycles, asked me where I got the plane.  I told them I built it.  They asked "how did you do that"?  I told them.  I bought balsa wood, some plywood and other materials, had a set of plans, and built the plane.  One asked me if he could get one at Wal Mart.  When I said no, he said "come on guys, let's go."  That should tell you something about the future of our hobby.  Those boys showed no interest whatsoever in creating something with their own hands.

At the club where I fly, there are only four or five regular CL guys.  I bet most at that club would love to see us go since they would like to use our circle as a heliport.  Every now and then, one of the RC guys will come over, look at the planes we have, and make comments regarding the build quality and workmanship.  None are interested in CL.  They have neither the time or desire to build something like that.  It is far too easy to get an RC foamy RTF or ARF.

Another thing to take note of is age of members.  Even on the RC side, I rarely see anyone under age 40 anymore.  If I do, it might be someone's son who tags along for a while, but none of them come to the CL circle to see what we are doing.  I bet many of the RC guys still think CL is below their social status.  Who in their right mind would fly one of those when you can "move up to RC"?  Move up?  To what?  A piece of foam that took about three hours to make flight ready?  The older RC guys know better since they had to build, years ago, because nothing else was available.  But, they will not fly CL, even if they did it before getting into RC.



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