The Future of Stunt & Control Line in General

[Scott Richlen]

I bet many of the RC guys still think CL is below their social status.  Who in their right mind would fly one of those when you can "move up to RC"?

That's the result of AMA's years-long campaign about "moving up to RC" bearing fruit.  They are no longer quite so open about it, but every once in a while it reveals itself in what they say.

[Mark Romanowitz]

I'm letting this idea go..

I appreciate all of the inputs.

[Jim Svitko]

I was wondering if there are still shop classes offered in places like high schools.  I remember wood shops, metals shops, etc.  A kid could learn how to make things.  These days, mastering a video game is the thing to do.

[Scott Richlen]

I was wondering if there are still shop classes offered in places like high schools.

Yes there are.  At one of the local junior high schools we had an after-school activity in their shop area building simple rubber-powered free-flight.  It ran for 7 years until Covid came and they shut down the after-school activities.  Every year we had at least 10 kids show up for these sessions.  Kids in Junior High are about as "flighty" as they come - some sessions we'd have 4 kids show up and then the next session we'd have 20!  The only support we had was from the lady that ran after-school activities, but no support or recognition from anyone else in the school system.

During all this, we had a similar train of discussion on StuntHanger about how "kids aren't interested in model airplanes."  I posted that, on the contrary, there were some that had an interest.  Amazingly, instead of support I got a bunch of postings about how I was wrong and challenges like "oh yeah?  Well, how many of them did this or that?" trying to prove that they actually weren't interested.  And when I started posting pictures of the kids building the airplanes a lot of people got very upset about it.  I was ruining their narrative.

I never said it was easy.  And I never said that they sent out the cheer-leaders to dance around at our flying sessions.  But we have an awful lot of people who seem to be happy to play "Debbie Downer" with the result we see here: Mark R gets convinced it's a lost cause and essentially says "oh well, never mind."

Good job guys!

[Mark Romanowitz]

..Mark R gets convinced it's a lost cause and essentially says "oh well, never mind."

It's all good, Scott.. If it had only been this site I probably would have said:

(to quote Fantastic Mr. Fox)   "I understand what you are saying, and your comments are valuable, but I'm going to ignore your advice."

But there were a lot of other factors that played into this, and there were also lot of conversations over the phone the past few days, and many today, that weighed into this decision.. There were plenty who said "It's a great idea, go for it!" And some who had reasons not to that were not mentioned here.

A General/Sport Control Line SIG was discussed, one that part of the charter would be to get new folks into the Hobby. As I said, that isn't the focus of PAMPA, and it shouldn't be. It isn't the focus of any of the Control Line SIGs..
Numerous discussions on who the target demographic would be for pulling folks into the hobby were also kicked around..

One novel suggestion I hadn't thought of was current aviation industry employees (predominantly engineers). We have had several airline pilots in the top 10 consistently (Al Rabe, Ted Fancher and David Fitzgerald) and Engineers (Paul Walker, Brett Buck come to mind immediately) although there are others I'm sure that I just don't know they fit into that category..

With the construction methods and technology levels of upper echelon competition, this is the demographic (as well as business owners) who have the technical background, love of aviation and means to be potential high caliber stunt flyers..

So maybe the demographic that should be targeted would be men between the ages of 25 and 45, instead of kids..

I even had some discussion with my wife about it, because this sort of thing can quickly become life dominating, and as I said earlier, one person isn't going to turn this around.

There were a lot of valuable inputs..

Personally I don't buy the "Kids these days.." comments.. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on that one..
Yes, there are more options.. Yes, they go play computer games a lot, but I've seen enough who are engaged in the real world and hungry to learn and try things like this that I cannot overgeneralize and write them all off..

I grew up in a neighborhood of about 20 boys my age.. There were only two of us, me and a friend named Will, who did model airplanes. The rest may not have had as many options as kids today, but what they did have were enough. They were into football or basketball, and maybe fishing..

And even Will wasn't all that persistent with model airplanes.. He went off into minibikes and go-carts and the model planes collected dust in the garage, and then he ended up moving away.

I was the airplane nerd.. I doubt the other boys could tell the difference between a Hellcat, a Wildcat and a Corsair.  David McCampbell, Joe Foss, John Thach, Alex Vraciu, Ira Kepford, Don Gentile, and Francis Gabreski were my heroes, not Roman Gabriel, Joe Namath or Pete Maravich..

And then of course were the kings of stunt: Les McDonald, Al Rabe, Billy Werwage, Bob Hunt and Ted Fancher among others.. I still want to build a Stiletto and a Juno..

The guys in my neighborhood just didn't have the "want to"..

Regarding all of the feedback, if you strip away the emotion and editorializing and just look as close to the factual data as possible, which does include people's experiences, you get a pretty good view on the effort necessary to make this work. And then you have to ask yourself if you can realistically pull that off.

And that ultimately was the deciding factor. "Given all of the other things I have on my plate, what do I realistically have time for?"
I am still working and won't be retiring for another ten years at least. So do I realistically have the bandwidth to take this on and drive it for 3 to 5 years?

To be honest, I don't. And that was really the only deal breaker.

Thanks again,
Mark

[Ken Culbertson]

......So maybe the demographic that should be targeted would be men between the ages of 25 and 45, instead of kids..

Now that is an idea worth perusing.  What is true about that period in your life?  You have finished school and you are starting a career and most likely a family.  It is perhaps the most stressful time in your life.  And what is the one stress reliever we know? ........ sanding.  Seriously, introducing our hobby to a person who has a need and means is brilliant.  I was 5 when my father asked his partner at the time what he did in his spare time and my father brought home a "Lil Stinker" kit.  We spent weeks putting that stupid plane together.  He was able to get that stubborn OK Cub .049 to run long enough to crash it soundly (did any of those "log" planes actually fly?).  That led to a series of Gillows stick and tissue kits that we did get to fly and by the time I was 7 I had built every Comet $.10 kit the little store across the street had.  I was hooked.  He never flew control line but was there for me whenever he could and even offered to start a hobby business with me.  Uncle Sam had other plans for me and it never happened. 

We think we need kids but we really need people.  So when a friend or business colleague asks what you do to relieve stress hand him/her a Baby Ringmaster kit.  One thing you should tell them as a caution.  Most women can smell dope from 100' upwind in a hurricane and even though it smells just like fingernail polish, they can't stand it!

Ken

[John Carrodus]

Oh Dear!
This discussion has a terminal odour about it that wont go away. Put simply, this hobby does not cut the mustard with most young folk today. There are too many distractions and easier options to get to the beach partyi n their vertual world or social media network reality. We may as well enjoy the orchestra and yake pleasure in our control line culture until we slip below the waves. No point in rearranging the deck chairs- unless we can get the young folks to fly CL with their face glued to a gaming screen.

[Steve Thompson]

I live in a college town 8 miles from another college town.

20 years ago, there were 3 hobby stores that carried items for RC planes and building supplies.  Now they are all closed.

Now there are 6 recreational marijuana shops.

Society changes.  Interests change. 

[Mark Romanowitz]

Rick Nelson before he passed away wrote a song named, Garden Party. It has a chorus saying,

It's all right now,
Learned my lesson well,
You can't please everyone so you,
You got to please yourself.

Thanks for bringing up this song.. It's stuck in my head now and I cannot seem to shake it.

When I was younger they played it WAAAAYYYYYYY too often..

It's the Flower Child/Hippy Gen's equivalent of Lynrd Skynrd's Free Bird.

Thanks, Pal...

 

[Dan McEntee]

So maybe the demographic that should be targeted would be men between the ages of 25 and 45, instead of kids..
 


Thanks again,
Mark

     This is the point I was making in my original post, 3rd paragraph. I have been pointing this out for several years in many of these discussions. If a kids does show some interest at all, he can be easily over ridden or put off by the parents for any or all of a lot of reasons. They depend on the parents for everything. The 25 to 35 year old adults are the parents of the kids most want to target their focus on, but they never showed any interest when THEY were kids, so there is no continuity. But by the time they get to this age, they can become more aware of other things to be interested in, and if they already have an interest in anything mechanical in nature, it fits right in. How many of us out there are musicians, even luthiers? Quite a few. How many are mechanics or technicians of some sort? Quite a few. Now many are into motorsports of some kind? Quite a few. I think when people get to this 25 to 35 age group, they can be a bit more sophisticated and receptive to new interests and experiences. Like I said before, they already have the vehicle, bank account, and some sort of home and hopefully stable home life  and they might be looking  for something like what we do, or maybe not even looking, but if they stumble across it out on a drive or surfing the internet, that could create the spark. I agree with the statement about clubs and organizations. It's more appealing to some if they know where they can get help. Everything is usually more fun in a group. And if you get an adult thinking along these lines, you get the kids also. Maybe not right away, but once they see the parent get some success and having some fun, that may be all the kids need.

     And again, this is not a new problem, and has been discussed in  the magazines for 50 to 60 years. But these times we live in are just sooooooo different, I think a new approach is needed if a person wants to pursue this. I'm several years retired now, have the usual aches, pains, and other maladies that go along with aging and, as I mentioned, I have put forth a lot of time and efforts in these areas over my entire adult life, and I'm just kind of burned out on it all in recent years. I have not given up hope completely and if someone stops by the fence at Buder Park, I'll make the effort to chat them up a bit just to show that we are approachable, willing to help, and try to make them feel welcomed. I worked in industrial maintenance for a living, and also part time in retail at a local hobby shop for over 35 years, so I am used to talking with people, and explaining things in a simple manor, and try not to over sell the idea. The rest is up to them. They will have to put out a little more effort to get started these days when it comes to finding supplies and such, and that may be a turn off to some. To the plus side of this, almost all will already be familiar with buying stuff on line. The other side of the sword though is the cost of what they do find these days. These are all complicating factors and will take a certain type of person to deal with that. The whole world is "outside the box" these days!! And it's gonna take that kind of thinking to address the issue.

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee


   

[Jim Svitko]

I live in a college town 8 miles from another college town.

20 years ago, there were 3 hobby stores that carried items for RC planes and building supplies.  Now they are all closed.

Now there are 6 recreational marijuana shops.

Society changes.  Interests change.

I think that says it all.  Things change.  Nothing we can do about it.  The "spark" to do something has to come from within.  You can't make someone want to do something.  People will drift toward things that hold interest for them.  And, life is full of other responsibilities.  There is rarely enough time for everything.

There are reasons to be optimistic about some things.  I have seen some interesting robotics displays.  High school or college students working on such things and then competing with what they come up with.

One very interesting competition I was able to see was the model aircraft contest that I believe the SAE sponsored some years ago.  I am not sure if this event is still being held.  The last time I heard of it, it was held at a local RC club site.  College aeronautical students had to build an RC model aircraft within the given parameters, such as max wing area, or other limitations.

This particular event was a "max payload" contest.  As I understood it, whoever could make one circuit around the field, with the most payload, was the winner.  Take off, come back around, land.  Most crashed trying to make the turn to downwind.  I did not see anyone succeed, but I was not able to attend on the first day of the contest.  Maybe someone made it.  The closest I saw was one plane that managed to turn downwind but could not keep enough airspeed to maintain altitude.

[Colin McRae]

Sometimes there is a unique kid out there.

There is a 12 or 13 year old member of our RC club that flies foamy RC models. His mother, every Sunday, brings him to our field to fly and she hangs out for 2-3 hours while he does so. A great commitment on her part. He is pretty much the only young kid in our 80+ members. So, he continues to learn RC from some very experienced elders that have a great time working with him. He feels so welcome. Especially with no other kids his age around.

What's interesting is that he actually scratch-built a simple RC model (his own design) after learning some of the important aerodynamic basics from the elders and somewhat mimicking the design basics from some of his RC foamys. I think it was part of a school related show and tell project. But he built it, flew it, and trimmed it (obviously with the help and support of the club elders). And strong encouragement from all.   

So against all odds, here is a kid who likes to build and fly model aircraft. Maybe a NATS participant someday?

But there is a downside. He flew our CL trainer once or twice, then never flew CL again. Roomer is his patents squashed his CL interest only because he already has a lot of RC 'stuff' around the house and mom and dad just had no desire for more stuff around related to CL. But hopefully someday he will rekindle interest in CL.

We still let him know he can fly the CL trainer anytime he wants?

[Dave_Trible]

Sometimes there is a unique kid out there.

There is a 12 or 13 year old member of our RC club that flies foamy RC models. His mother, every Sunday, brings him to our field to fly and she hangs out for 2-3 hours while he does so. A great commitment on her part. He is pretty much the only young kid in our 80+ members. So, he continues to learn RC from some very experienced elders that have a great time working with him. He feels so welcome. Especially with no other kids his age around.

What's interesting is that he actually scratch-built a simple RC model (his own design) after learning some of the important aerodynamic basics from the elders and somewhat mimicking the design basics from some of his RC foamys. I think it was part of a school related show and tell project. But he built it, flew it, and trimmed it (obviously with the help and support of the club elders. And strong encouragement from all.   

So against all odds, here is a kid who likes to build and fly model aircraft. Maybe a NATS participant someday?

But there is a downside. He flew our CL trainer once or twice, then never flew CL again. Roomer is his patents squashed his CL interest only because he already has a lot of RC 'stuff' around the house and mom and dad just had no desire for more stuff around related to CL. But hopefully someday he will rekindle interest in CL.

We still let him know he can fly the CL trainer anytime he wants?

This sounds like our albino..he has the gene.   It's rare and should be nurtured.   I wish you didn't have to go though thousands to find that one.
 These days I believe the place to go hunting is on-line.   This is where all the young (er) folks are.   We need a Shug making U tube and facebook videos,  posting regularly creating interest.   You will find those needles in the haystack that way.   Then you will just need something to present or offer to any who respond.  Traditional approaches will just give us traditional results.

Dave

[Mark Romanowitz]

Speaking of Shug Emery,
What happened to him?
I thought his videos were great!
Then all of a sudden he disappeared..

[John Carrodus]

Yeah, that guy was a real clown.
Shug made great videos
Maybe he was just clowning around

[Dan McEntee]

Speaking of Shug Emery,
What happened to him?
I thought his videos were great!
Then all of a sudden he disappeared..

    Shug looked to be a guy that had a lot of interests, and he made some interesting videos on hiking and back packing and such. I think one of the last posts I read was that he was retiring his act from the fair and festival circuit, and might be doing other things. That's all just a guess on my part. I hope he's doing well.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Steve Thompson]

In today's world, maybe the way to spike interest in CL is get a flashy exciting viral video of a popular "influencer" with a handle in their hand.

At least kids would find out that something "retro" like CL exists.


But there are obstacles.  Like, CL is a dangerous hobby!

Parents now might be afraid to let their precious child use something as dangerous as a razor knife.  Let alone have little hands near a spinning finger chopper.  And the finger bonding glues and toxic paint, oh my...

As a kid, I knew not to play with adult stuff like the table saw.  I had good parents, but I also got shoved outside to play and experimentation and personal accountability was used to learn lots.  Sometimes the hard way.  Today, if junior cut his finger because he was using a double-edge razor blade to cut balsa, the State would probably look at taking the kids away from his bad parents.  A lot of protections stand in the way of just doing things now.  Heck, spell-check won't even let us spell things wrong.  The point being, if a kid were interested, good chance the parent veto's it due to safety concerns.  How could they supervise something THEY are afraid of?

A video clip I liked showed a little kid, maybe 5 or 6, zooming by on a tiny dirt bike WFO throttle.  Grandma was horrified and couldn't even look.  Grandpa was quietly chuckling.  We need more "full send" kids.

[Shorts,David]

"The hobby has refined to the point where all of the non-essentials and less effective ways have been boiled out. The "creative" designs of Old Time Stunt are gone, because there was a formula that was more competitive.. Just like full size Aircraft.. The technology has changed, and tightened the margins of the competition.. And the competition has driven the technology change."

Thoughts? Ideas? Discussion?

Hi Mark,

I agree with Floyd here. No, no, no. I'm not disagreeing with your whole statement, just this part. My reason is two fold. 1. How many times in the past have a group of modelers felt the exact same sentiment, only to have a new design or technology appear a few years later? (Many times). These new innovations don't appear without someone trying something new and creative. This is evidenced all the time. So less competitive ways are always boiled out, like flapless designs, or thin airfoils, or fox .35s, and on and on. I do not believe the Shark is the culmination of control line technology driving out all other CREATIVE models and approaches. Balsa is still viable, molded is viable, and many are experimenting with foam. Glow is viable, electric is viable, even contra rotating is viable. I just don't think there is a FORMULA. But, many older technologies are no longer competitive at a world class level. But there is still room for creativity, not just room for it, but I believe a MANDATE for those interested in such things.
2. If I'm wrong and there is just one FORMULA, this hobby is not only doomed, it is pointless. At least it would be for me. Isn't a toll house chocolate chip cookie the greatest in the world? Why does anyone still make recipes and experiment in something that has a proven formula?

But, on to the stuff I agree with. The future. As Floyd points out, as long as the pattern is challenging, people will fly and attempt it. Thought. If none of us had a hobby, and we were all introduced to five hobbies. We probably wouldn't all choose the same hobbies, but would any of us choose Stunt? If we wouldn't choose it, then we are training a zebra to race against horses. But given the choice of hobbies, I believe many would choose our hobby, if exposed to it.

How? You are correct about STEM education. Someone else points out that there is no beginner ARF at present. We could have a stem package for schools with a grant listed on the science grant website for people to apply for. But that would require an Arm of Pampa which we don't have. Possibly an individual who wants to make a small forture by starting with a large one. There could be a simple foam arf made available, or RTF. And there could be a STEM project for schools to apply for.

Next, there needs to be kids. I don't mean invite kids to our contests. I mean get some stem kids to compete without ever seeing anyone over the age of 20 besides the teacher/coach. It's just optics, and important ones at that. Then, you get a film company (again, start with a large fortune and turn it into a small one) to create the 6 episode show showcasing the kids competitions and their battle for the national title. They don't know a thing about Pampa, a 15 maneuver pattern, or anything else at this point. Just the simple prescribed competition for the STEM project. Then this show runs on Disney channel or similar channel (think drone racing  or battle bots here.) Maybe we never introduce them to pampa or the rest of us and we all rush to join them in the new control line creation.

Okay, that;s all for my creativity. Oh, except there are also video award websites that have small prizes offered by hundreds of different companies. I remember making a Toyota safety video years ago with a high schooler for an award. I also remember making a music video based on an Edgar Allen Poe poem for another one. We could have a video award also. That gets to the kids. Then, while we're at it, Let's make an independent movie staring some actor, how about Danny Trejo as the old wise mentor, and basicially make a Karate Kid remake with control line models? I'll start the screen play when someone shows me the money to produce it. 

Now I'm really done this time.
David

[Motorman]

In the morning at every racing contest, we use to have a Jr 1/2a proto profile event. Some kids and dads would show up just for this and not fly in the regular events. Not all of them stuck with it through puberty but some did. Mostly the ones that built their own planes.


MM

[Mark Romanowitz]

A few more conversations behind me and I'm reminded again that growing this is only going to happen via grass-roots one on one..

I'll do what I can locally, but an organizational approach is going to result in making a lot of work for myself with little ROI.

I'm distancing myself from this topic going forward.

Thanks for helping me see the reality of the situation.

I appreciate all of the inputs.

Mark

[john e. holliday]

Control line will never completely die unless the politicians make laws to prohibit it.  I didn't learn or realize it but I would load my kids up and we go to Shawnee Mission Park were there was a reasonable grass circle.  They would help me fly and when done I would take them over to the swings and slides until dark or supper time.     Finally one asked if they could try it.  One of the reasons I always had a Ring Master.   Set the needle to where the plane would take off and fly and I would hold their hand and talk to them.  in every case about the third time it was start  the plane and launch.  Invariably if we had time one of the others would want to try.   At one time I had all four taking turns.   One time while at one of the phone company schools my son took all the girls and the 1/2A Skyray to the school ground and they flew according to the wife.   But then I pushed compitition and the fun left us.   If I had known then what I know now compitition would hsve been left out until they asked to try it.  Loretta the middle girl is the only one that never wanted to fly a contest.  Now I hope grandkids be sides James will want to fly control line.   Now I have the shop in decent shape I may get my great grand daughter to try and assemble a plane.  She makes paper planes now since I showed her how on a couple of designs.    now have plans for a rubber powered free flight that uses no balsa.   More on that when time gets here.  

[Dan McEntee]

I appreciate you explaining to me what Floyd was trying to say.. But I never said anything to the contrary of either of the two points you explained, and I really have no idea how the assumption was made that I had a different opinion.

I wouldn't be interested in flying the pattern myself if doing so wasn't challenging..

And I would also choose this hobby again if given the opportunity to do so.. 

And I did, in fact, do just that, after being away from it for nearly 30 years. So I'm not sure what the point is here..


And because of all that, I think it's still worth trying to grow.

So I'm going to try.. So yes, hope springs eternal..

If you don't want to help, you can say "I told you so" later.

No one ever grew anything by doing nothing, so if you want to help, let me know.

       What you are describing here is the upper echelon of the hobby. The top rung on the ladder. You will always have the people that seek that position and do what it takes to get there.  What it takes to get there is more rungs of the ladder underneath. That ladder used to be pretty long and wide, and that is what's missing or at least going away. One constant that has always been there ever since I have have been doing this is people that just want to fly and enjoy the experience, maybe entering an occasional contest, but getting together with their flying buddies to practice, hang out, ask questions, offer help and suggestion, and generally help each other. That is what has always been there, is gone now,  and needs to be replaced. The base or foundation of the hobby. These are the people that supported hobby shops, vendors and manufacturers. As that has been eroding and shrinking, so has the others. Competition, especially in the upper echelon of the event, tends to take care of itself. The changes in technology will be driven by this group as they evolve and innovate. But when they move on, who will replace them? They will come up the ladder just like like those before them. Any sport or hobby needs a strong grass roots foundation of participation. people who do it just for the love of it. Until we find out what it will take to reach the next wave of participants, we just have to keep on putting it out there and be ready for any interest that comes our way. That's where the focus should be. Clubs would attract some, but there should be opportunity for those that can't or just like to go it alone but need occasional help. keep the search wide and open to any and everyone.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Scott Richlen]

One constant that has always been there ever since I have have been doing this is people that just want to fly and enjoy the experience, maybe entering an occasional contest, but getting together with their flying buddies to practice, hang out, ask questions, offer help and suggestion, and generally help each other. That is what has always been there, is gone now,  and needs to be replaced. The base or foundation of the hobby.

Exactly right Dan!  But AMA is off doing their ARF Foamies and Quadcopter thing, and the group most capable of doing anything about this for CL, PAMPA, has no interest.  As long as they can have their Walker Cup competition, well, apparently, that's all that matters.  They currently have their most energetic, talented leader ever.  He's pointed out the problem very clearly to them (that the PAMPA bathtub is draining out a lot faster than its being refilled....), but yet.....

The NFFS provides a model of what can be done, but are we smart enough or care enough to do our version of it?  (And now prepare for the posts attacking NFFS.....sigh....)

[Mark Romanowitz]

Exactly right Dan!  But AMA is off doing their ARF Foamies and Quadcopter thing, and the group most capable of doing anything about this for CL, PAMPA, has no interest.  As long as they can have their Walker Cup competition, well, apparently, that's all that matters.  They currently have their most energetic, talented leader ever.  He's pointed out the problem very clearly to them (that the PAMPA bathtub is draining out a lot faster than its being refilled....), but yet.....

The NFFS provides a model of what can be done, but are we smart enough or care enough to do our version of it?  (And now prepare for the posts attacking NFFS.....sigh....)

I don't think we are going to have that, Scott.. If folks start attacking NFFS then they are going after a group who has been very sincerely trying to help solve this problem.

[Mark Romanowitz]

A few more conversations behind me and I'm reminded again that growing this is only going to happen via grass-roots one on one..

I'll do what I can locally, but an organizational approach is going to result in making a lot of work for myself with little ROI.

So I'm letting this topic go.

Thanks for helping me see the reality of the situation.

I appreciate all of the inputs.

Mark

[fred cesquim]

here in Brazil every month or so, someone start to talk about "savind c/l and bringing newcomers", most of them hardly fly or build and obviously nothing happens, how could, if themselves are not modelling at all?
Unfortunately we are aging ( better aging then the option) and after promoting a lot of events and competitions with the goal of bringing newcomers or old timers back to the field i gave up. It´s hard to compete with internet, even for otherwise active modellers.
just as a "case study" on the newcomers we have 2 well documented situations with a broad numbers of people:
case one:
at our field ( in the biggest city of south america) we have 2-3 planes ready for flight, a person dedicated to help and we welcomme anyone to try a fly with the instructor. Our filed is within one of the most visited parks in south america so we have plenty people. it´s a few steps of F1 Ayrton Senna´s memorial. Every weekend about 3-6 youngsters (mostly) have a flight or 2, on the last 2 years none of them returned.
case two:
a dear friend and a great modeller teatches modelling in a junior/high school for kids with classes once a week. they start to learn at about age 7 and goes until 17 years old. first with paper models, going through rubber band models, free flight, boats and finish with a control line model ( they can have all of the models after finished). He teatches about 8 classes a day for the last 25 years. When i was inquiring how many of the 1000´s of kids became modellers after this time he was shocked to tell me : just 2, and one left modelling a few years ago.

from my side, i gave up trying and my focus is my learning curve of the pattern and improvement as a modelbuilder. and whenever a friend want´s help i do it, otherwise, i think i´ve lost the battle.

but i still encourage any good soul that try to make it work.

[Rusty]

I read what you guys are saying and agree. What Dan said about local guys offering a helping hand is good.  However, I think  that is the 2nd step in the process.  The first step is the hobby shop.   The hobby shops are gone and that is where it begins.  When people go in the shop and see models hanging from the ceiling, it attracts them to ask questions.  When the store has kits, engines, building supplies it gives people a chance to start.   Then the guys at the field come into play. 

It is my belief the hobby will continue to decline because the hobby shops are gone.  When I had my hobby shop, at Christmas people would come in and buy EVERYTHING that was needed to start for somebody. 

How are people going to start the hobby and order everything they need to start by mail order?  It's not going to happen.  In my club, I have people FREQUENTLY ask  me for all sorts of parts to get their plane fixed or going, like props, wheels, spinners, screws, bolts, collars, etc.   They express great appreciation for me giving them this stuff because they don't want to mail order it.   

Rusty

[EddyR]

 Like many on here i have seen the magazine articles and then internet articles “where are the young people” all the way back to the 1950’s. CL had it’s big start in late 40’s with the sound of a model engine running and then flying  at local parking lot. That was the draw until the cops chased all the cl flyers away and  that was the start of the end.
 That is over simple way to explain a complex loss of a hobby but cl started to die when it was no longer seen.
 I enjoyed all those early years more than the many contest I have been to.
  Eddyr

[fred cesquim]

I read what you guys are saying and agree. What Dan said about local guys offering a helping hand is good.  However, I think  that is the 2nd step in the process.  The first step is the hobby shop.   The hobby shops are gone and that is where it begins.  When people go in the shop and see models hanging from the ceiling, it attracts them to ask questions.  When the store has kits, engines, building supplies it gives people a chance to start.   Then the guys at the field come into play. 

It is my belief the hobby will continue to decline because the hobby shops are gone.  When I had my hobby shop, at Christmas people would come in and buy EVERYTHING that was needed to start for somebody. 

How are people going to start the hobby and order everything they need to start by mail order?  It's not going to happen.  In my club, I have people FREQUENTLY ask  me for all sorts of parts to get their plane fixed or going, like props, wheels, spinners, screws, bolts, collars, etc.   They express great appreciation for me giving them this stuff because they don't want to mail order it.   

Rusty

being a shop owner for the last 20 years (vinyl records, no model airplane) i know from large that people under 30´s hate to go shopping, they are into online stores ( my shop is online). here we had until 5 years ago the hobbyshop aerobras, open since the eraly 50-s, closed because nobody care to visit, not even the actual flyers...
the younger generations are online natives and seek for information on youtube. if they don´t show up at the field, is because they didn´t feel the call from the airplanes....

[Brett Buck]

Exactly right Dan!  But AMA is off doing their ARF Foamies and Quadcopter thing, and the group most capable of doing anything about this for CL, PAMPA, has no interest.  As long as they can have their Walker Cup competition, well, apparently, that's all that matters.  They currently have their most energetic, talented leader ever.  He's pointed out the problem very clearly to them (that the PAMPA bathtub is draining out a lot faster than its being refilled....), but yet.....

   I think this is a little unfair. PAMPA has a very clear charter, it is following the charter. And no one is actively hostile to the idea of promoting general control-line interests. I and many others have looked at the issue and concluded it is unlikely to achieve anything for reasons discussed at extreme length in other threads and off-line. Nothing has changed about it since then so I won't repeat it.

   That doesn't mean anyone should not try, but don't be terribly disappointed that it doesn't work. There are plenty of people - many PAMPA members - that would be happy to assist, as long as it doesn't involve undermining the current very good situation for the NATs.

    Referring to the previous alleged attempt to promote CL general/"change PAMPA charter" to an equivalent of the NFFS, someone is going to have to explain why the very first actions taken to "promote and grow" CL general involved extensive efforts to undermine the operations of the NATs and changes to competition rules. And verbal and written attacks on the people running PAMPA and the NATS, and a slew of people who were just the ones to assist any such promotion, sometimes in the most hostile and threatening terms.

      At the very least, to use the power/influence of PAMPA to achieve some goal, any goal, it would make sense to engage the people involved in it, rather than antagonize them in a variety of ways as your first step, in ways that had nothing to do with the stated goal.   That's what happened before, the net result being the stated/alleged purpose was not in any way achieved, but did blow the organization to bits.

    Compare and contrast with what Mark Weiss is trying to do. It's very similar to the Brodak's stated purpose, but he didn't start out by trying to antagonize everyone involved as his very first step, and he has done nothing inconsistent with his goals, while maintaining the credibility of PAMPA as the NATs competition group. So, while the underlying situation regarding general CL building/flying is completely unchanged, at least he hasn't destroyed anything, and those people in PAMPA he might need have not been abused or threatened.

     PAMPA, the organization, is probably not the right for what you seem to want to do. I don't see where PAMPA is standing in the way of what you want to do in any material way. But PAMPA - the people - are exactly the people who will be needed to make your idea work, if you are serious about it, talk to Mark Weiss, who seems to be of the same mind, and figure a way to build what you want, and use the people of PAMPA and any other organization to accomplish your goal. It is my opinion you are probably tilting at a windmills for the reasons previously stated (which have nothing at all to do wth any organization) but doing nothing guarantees nothing will happen.

     Brett


p.s. by the way, in engaging other events, you may already know this, but expect pushback from those people, to. Part of it is resentment for the wild success of stunt compared to the effectively disastrous history of the other events, and even differences inside each event (people who think "shutoffs ruined combat" instead of saving it, etc). This is inevitable with people so highly competitive that they have done it for decades. Doc Jacksons effort was well-intended but naive in that sense, and he quickly found that the different categories either didn't care about each other, or were actively hostile to being associated with the other events, stunt in particular coming in for abuse from the "performance" events.

[Scott Richlen]

Brett:

One problem here is that it seems that every time this topic comes up its "Oh, no!  Brodak Round 2!"  When it isn't anything of the sort.

This is not about Carrier or Scale or Combat or....  I don't believe that is where most future stunt flyers come from.  They come from sport flyers who, for the most part, do not have a serious interest in Carrier, Scale, or combat.  Picture in your mind what we might call the "Pyramid of Stunt (or PA) Interest."  At the very peak are the handful of flyers who compete for the Walker Cup.  Perhaps the next layer down are the Nats stunt competitors, a larger group.  Next down from that are contest competitors  - the people who go to local contests but not the Nats.  A still larger group.  The pyramid continues to increase in size as we move down to the base.  I'd guess the next level down is most likely the sport flyers who have done a loop and wish to do more.  Again, a larger group.  Someplace below them is maybe a layer labeled "Stunt-wanabee facebook members."  9900 of them on the Control Line Flying facebook page!  When I was running an after-school group at the local Junior High we always had around 10 kids show up to build free-flight.  Only 10, but multiply that by the number of Junior Highs across the nation!

When you consider how many people actually comprise the Pyramid of PA who all could potentially be members of PAMPA and/or potential advocates/participants in PA, and the absolute paucity of PAMPA's outreach to them (in fact, the adverse reaction that seems to crop up when anything near this topic is brought up!) it is incredibly disappointing.  How can PAMPA have any expectation of growth when its value proposition has been focused solely on the top 2 tiers of the pyramid?

One other point: many folks here repeatedly pointed out how "flight training" rarely creates new participants.  Did you ever stop to think "why would it?"  About the only times I have seen it work is when a CL retread comes by and wonders if he can still fly after not flying for 20 years, or when an RCer comes by and wonders if this fly-by-wire stuff would be fun for him.

There are all kinds of interesting things that amuse the modern young person.  When you compete on the basis of "Gee wilikers, isn't this fun?"  You compete on the basis that every other "fun thing" in our modern day society competes on.  So....

[Brett Buck]

Brett:

One problem here is that it seems that every time this topic comes up its "Oh, no!  Brodak Round 2!"  When it isn't anything of the sort.

   Do you take my point about antagonizing the people who might help you? Mark Weiss is doing something along the lines you are interested in, but *without* starting out by p*ssing everyone off as his first step. You are doing nothing like "Brodak 2.0" as far as I can see, and do not have the *extremely misguided* or malicious "advisors" that gave him such catastrophically bad advice.

   If you want something done, the first thing you have to do is convince people to help you, and expect to have to stick with it for a long time. PAMPA was very successful by avoiding mission creep, but more so, by having people who would work tirelessly to achieve the goals.

    The result, particularly the incredible recovery of PAMPA in the 90s (after Windy got done wrecking it), was largely due to two people - Mike Keville and Tom Morris*, both of whom were utterly dedicated to what they were doing and continued to do it through whatever they were subjected to. Tom, in particular, was like he was 4 people with all he got done, and additionally, he was subject to an absolutely amazing amount of abuse for his troubles. He rarely reacted to it, only when it was absolutely necessary, and kept on as if nothing had happened. The rest of us just benefitted from it.

  You and Mark, Mark Weiss, and other people need to be the Tom Morris of your efforts. It is not reasonable to expect other people with at least different interests and goals to do it for you. And, directly to the point, I don't see PAMPA or any of the usual suspects doing anything to stop you, and certainly any assistance you are liable to get is going to come from that group. The president of PAMPA is more-or-less of the same mind as you are!

    The tone of some of this is "why hasn't somebody done something"/" why aren't we doing anything"? I get the frustration part, but those "somebody" might have to be you, Mark, and Mark Weiss, and anyone else you can find of a like mind, and any of those who you can convince. I note that I was one of those supporting you, or at least defending you in the previous thread where this came up.

   To succeed you are going to have to believe in your cause, and disregard those who think it won't work, even if it is me or some other "name". But I see no one trying to stop you.

      Brett

*And yes others - PTG, Don McClave, Ted, etc. but any of them would hasten to point out that without Tom Morris, Mike Keville, Shareen, etc. that the whole thing could easily have collapsed in the late 80's/Early 90s. , or in the ST60 war.

[John Skukalek]

One of the things that I think about are "the numbers". There was a time when exposing a certain number people to CL would result in more "converts" than what happens today. Maybe there was a time when exposing 100 people (mostly young males) would generate 20 or 30 or 50 new control liners? What ever that number used to be at different points in time, it's dramatically less today for reasons mentioned in this string. Maybe today the number is 1 out of 1000 or 5000 or some other number.
My point :
       -  Target success "numbers" may need to be adjusted to avoid feeling defeated?
       -  I wonder if there is a way to scale up exposure? Is that the strategy that deserves focus?

[Rusty]

Like many on here i have seen the magazine articles and then internet articles “where are the young people” all the way back to the 1950’s. CL had it’s big start in late 40’s with the sound of a model engine running and then flying  at local parking lot. That was the draw until the cops chased all the cl flyers away and  that was the start of the end.
 That is over simple way to explain a complex loss of a hobby but cl started to die when it was no longer seen.
 I enjoyed all those early years more than the many contest I have been to.
  Eddyr

Amen to that.  The early years were much more exciting.   

[Frank Imbriaco]

As long as there is a dearth of flying fields in many parts of the country where there is population, control line flying doesn't have a future. I've spoken to the AMA and asked that they use whatever leverage they have to persuade RC clubs to allow us to use some of their property. Of course, they can't force clubs but there are other mechanisms. In NJ, we are down to one dedicated control line facility and four RC fields that will allow it with some conditions. Each of them are far from population(youth) sources. Just go on facebook and see the magnificent fields on the outskirts of cities in South America and other areas.

[Jim Svitko]

As long as there is a dearth of flying fields in many parts of the country where there is population, control line flying doesn't have a future. I've spoken to the AMA and asked that they use whatever leverage they have to persuade RC clubs to allow us to use some of their property. Of course, they can't force clubs but there are other mechanisms. In NJ, we are down to one dedicated control line facility and four RC fields that will allow it with some conditions. Each of them are far from population(youth) sources. Just go on facebook and see the magnificent fields on the outskirts of cities in South America and other areas.

In my experience, it is rare to find an RC club that will allow CL on their site.  As I have said before, we are considered "lower class" modelers, crazy people who go round and round.  Well, I would not describe most RC fliers as aero modelers.  A better description is operators of RC aircraft.  Yes, they fly, but that is as far as it goes.  Very few of them build what they fly.  They do not have the time, the desire, or the ability, to get a CL plane in the air.  It is too easy to go to a "toy" store and get an ARF or RTF.  If the RC ARF industry ever folded up, there would be very few RC guys flying anymore.

It took many years and much persuasion by one of our guys to get a local RC club to allow him to put in a circle.  From what I heard, many in the club at that time did not want CL there.  I have no idea if the club contributed anything to get the CL circle operational.  I doubt if the club did much, if anything, to help.  I am sure they would like to see us go away.  I fear that as our numbers shrink even more, the club membership will find a reason to take over our circle due to insufficient use.

Yes, the lack of CL flying sites is a contributor to the decline in CL.  With no place to fly, why get into it in the first place?  Gone are the days when someone could find an open field, a park, etc. and fly CL planes, without being hassled by someone.  With all the legal and safety implications, very few officials in local government are going to allow that.  Our only option is to share a dedicated flying site with someone else, namely RC clubs.  Unless, of course, someone has private property large enough to put in a circle or two.

[Dave_Trible]

Jim Lee in Topeka was fortunate that the RC club invited him to make a grass circle on their site when they lost their second paved circle in about three years.  It worked out well-including a working restroom on site.  That wouldn't work here in the KC area.   The control line and RC groups pretty openly were at war since the 60s and some of the feeling still remains.   However the RC group on the Missouri side has welcomed control line since the major antagonists have passed away.  They actually hold a very big combat contest there very year now but not much stunt flown.
Using Google maps a few years ago I combed possible chunks of public park property across the area and found a piece of park property out in the boonies that wasn't used or developed and there is/was no planned development nor even money to do it with in the near future.  They only tractor mow it once or twice a year.   I got the go ahead to use a piece of it,  bought a yard tractor and trailer to mow it and that is what we have.   This might be a way to have a field for you to fly if you have no other options-it will cost you some effort and maybe some cash but it's far better than nothing.  We even bought a house and moved 5-6 minutes away from the field instead of 40 minutes where we lived before.    I guess you gotta want to bad enough.

Dave

[Doug Moon]

>>>Picture in your mind what we might call the "Pyramid of Stunt (or PA) Interest."  At the very peak are the handful of flyers who compete for the Walker Cup.  Perhaps the next layer down are the Nats stunt competitors, a larger group.  Next down from that are contest competitors  - the people who go to local contests but not the Nats.  A still larger group.  The pyramid continues to increase in size as we move down to the base.  I'd guess the next level down is most likely the sport flyers who have done a loop and wish to do more.  Again, a larger group.  Someplace below them is maybe a layer labeled "Stunt-wanabee facebook members."  9900 of them on the Control Line Flying facebook page!  <<<
<<<

I like the stunt pyramid analogy, very nice description. But I think it is a little off. I am a very active member in the Dallas area, fly every weekend when it's not windy year around. Lets use our active weekly CL group as an example. There are exactly ZERO sport fliers that come out and just mess around and fly some laps. (If they are some of those fliers out there please come out we would love to have you.) We have about 5-10 "stunt" fliers on any given weekend and around 3-5 on any given weekday. They all fly the full pattern. We also have a VERY active speed and racing group here in Dallas. They are also out most weekends when the weather is manageable. This can be 3-8 guys working hard at their craft. We also have an active group of combat guys that come out from time to time. They don't keep a regular schedule but they are around.  There are NO sport fliers. We are adjacent to soccer fields that are littered with people all the time. About 15 full fields and on a tournament weekend there are 1000s upon 1000s of people coming and going for 2 days straight. We gets lots of onlookers and anyone who comes over a closer look is always welcomed and given all the info they want.

Recently, over the past year, we have had two RC converts. These guys are great! They are avid builders and have been modelers for a very long time. Lots of new ideas and energy. One of them has a CNC router and is making some really cool stuff. When I first met them they were just sport flying. That lasted only a few months. With some instruction they quickly picked up the pattern and are now stunt fliers. It's really great to see our group grow.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the sport flier group is not as large as you may think because typically people do gravitate towards a discipline and fly often and work at it, or stay a sport flyer and makes some laps a few times a year, or quit and move onto something else.  My experience here in Dallas over the past 30 years does not show there is a large group of sport fliers.

I have been involved in CL since 1991 or so. I have thought many times about how to grow it. I have introduced it to all 3 of my kids. It hasn't stuck with them but they have been exposed. I have no idea how to grow this and make it stick on people. All the ideas seem valid and so many people make good points but it all comes down the people being pitched CL. Do they have that interest within? 

PS Changing PAMPA to take a new direction to grow the general sport of CL will not do it either. People are not exposed to PAMPA before they are exposed to CL. It's the other way around.

[Steve Thompson]

Prior to WW2, free flight was THE modeling activity.  It was given a tremendous boost after Lindburgh's trans-Atlantic flight.  Kids at the time were very interested in anything airplane and Lindburgh was a national hero.  Those kids were adults after WW2 and modeling as a hobby grew.  (Detailed in Dave Thornburg's excellent book, "Do You Speak Model Airplanes").

At one time hot rods were the rage, fueled by interest in racing and exciting movies with hot cars.

The space race was another event that led to interest in science, math, and electronics.  Also, a whole empire of science fiction movies and stuff.  There was science fiction prior to the war, (Tom Swift and His...) but it received a tremendous boost when space came to the forefront.

What is the current thing that cool with young folks? 

Video games?  Creating video content and becoming a viral social influencer? 

Kids interested in science can do STEM activities like build robots or drones.  Balsa models do not require heavy math to succeed.  You can go far with the ART of building models.

What is a current interest for young folks that encourages or teaches many useful skills like building model aircraft? 

I have dreamed of stumbling across some kids at a school yard trying to get a 049 CL to run.  I could sure be helpful to the kid that already had the interest.  CREATING the interest is for sure the hard part.  In the last 40 plus years, I have only one time where I saw someone by chance that was flying a CL model.  (Rich McConnel at Carkeek Park, Seattle.  He was friendly and a good ambassador for the sport.)

Presenting the opportunity to fly CL to thousands of kids and hoping it will stick with a few is a noble but difficult task.  It doesn't continue to generate interest after the event while you sleep. 

We need an event to bring CL to the attention of today's kids (that all seem to have some form of ADD).

I bet if you had a Music video with 12 seconds of Taylor Swift flying 3 clumsy level laps with a cox 049, kids would continue to see it for years and Santa would get lots of letters.

[Scott Richlen]

I think this is a little unfair. PAMPA has a very clear charter, it is following the charter.

Not really.  This is from the PAMPA website: "The mission of PAMPA is to promote and improve control line precision aerobatics events."  Control line precision aerobatics events happen all over the country, not just Muncie, Indiana.

Brett: I may be antogonizing people, but I didn't intend to.  I'm simply trying to state my viewpoint.

My point :
       -  Target success "numbers" may need to be adjusted to avoid feeling defeated?
       -  I wonder if there is a way to scale up exposure? Is that the strategy that deserves focus?

Good points.  A re-look at our expectations might help a lot.  And looking at scaling issues is a good suggestion.  We seem to understand the necessity (for our training outreach success) of a pre-existing interest in model aviation by young people, but that is something not necessarily being generated in today's youth (with a lot else our youth should be, but are not, getting from our current culture.)  And then we assume that the reason "flight training" has no impact is that "kids don't like airplanes, aviation, etc."  But maybe it is the wrong approach?  In that case scaling up flight training would have little impact.  What if we scaled up a different approach?  Why not back up to square one and think this through with a different set of assumptions?

[Brett Buck]

Not really.  This is from the PAMPA website: "The mission of PAMPA is to promote and improve control line precision aerobatics events."  Control line precision aerobatics events happen all over the country, not just Muncie, Indiana.

     I am not seeing how PAMPA fails to support local contests, far from it, PAMPA people run every single one of them, as far as I can see. PAMPA was the very first in removing the BOM rule to allow local participation with borrowed and bought airplanes. This has been fantastically successful and also opened the way for ARFs, ARCs, RTFs to participate locally, long before they existed. Same with clinics, all organized, manned, and attended by PAMPA members.
 
    But the charter remains the same - to give pilots a voice in National Championship contests. These other side actions are, I think, good things we have done in general support of the event.

Brett: I may be antogonizing people, but I didn't intend to.  I'm simply trying to state my viewpoint.

  You are calling them out for not caring. But mostly I was addressing your point about "Brodak 2.0", and suggesting you compare and contrast Brodak's approach to Mark Weiss. You probably *do* have an extra burden of proof, for lack of a better term, because of history. Given that, you have to factor in other people's predispositions into your campaign to make sure they *don't* think it is a re-run. I expect you are going to be particularly challenged in your plan by the presence and willingness of some of the same people volunteering to help you - who may have a different axe to grind and will want to use your efforts and good will to further their own ends.

    Positing the problem as "us against PAMPA" is almost guaranteed way to get people's hackles up. That might not be your intent but it does bring back very bad memories among the people who you need to assist you. I suggest you have to consider things like that, fair to you or not, because people are sensitized to it.

   I said it before - what you and Mark want to do as described here is a unquestionably good thing and I wish you could succeed. I and many others are pretty skeptical given a large variety of reasons over which you/we/anybody has no control, - because we have tried and watched others try for decades with no success.

    But one thing that guarantees failure on Day 1 is not pursuing it at all because of naysayers.

      Brett

   

   

[CircuitFlyer]

The one major player in this 'problem' has been completely missing in this entire conversation so far.  Where the heck are the manufacturers, distributors and retailers of control line kits and products??  They have the most skin in the game and the most to loose as control line slowly declines.  What are they doing to encourage newcomers to the hobby to sustain their own business??  A quick search online reveals The Vintage Model Co doing some work but as far as North American suppliers - a big fat ZIP.  Where are the beginner ready complete packages of current and modern airframe kits and powerplant selections?  Where is the one-stop source for all control line related information that a newcomer needs?  Where are the Youtube video build logs of beginner packages?

These days, potential customers want to find information and products and they want it feed to them dead simple and instantaneously.  WHY aren't the retailers providing this??  I'd like to hear from them but, my guess is they are so lean they just don't have the budget, manpower, talent or resources to commit to a meaningful effort.

Here is a thought - instead of a new control line general SIG (as already discussed probably wouldn't be very effective) how about a Control Line Industry Association or similar.  Its main objective is to assist manufacturers, distributors and retailers of all sizes in targeting newcomers.  'We' as experienced modellers could pool our talents and provide things like: CAD/CAM for new model designs, detailed qualitative testing of proposed powerplant packages, possibly an organized selection of online reference material, video build log material, etc.  All of this could be offered to the retailers for their use in exchange for increased exposure for our model flying clubs.  We scratch your back, you scratch ours.  They give us a page on their retail web site listing flying club locations and contact information.  If they can attract new fliers, we get new fliers.

If a person has the spark, we can supply plenty of oxygen but the retailers have to supply the combustibles to get the fire started.

[realSteveSmith]

[Brett Buck]

A quick search online reveals The Vintage Model Co doing some work but as far as North American suppliers - a big fat ZIP.  Where are the beginner ready complete packages of current and modern airframe kits and powerplant selections? 

'

     I think I can answer that one - even here, where it is literally a website about stunt competition, most people have *no idea* or interest in "modern powerplants". Read the engine setup forum, there are nearly no posts in the entire history since 2006 regarding competitive stunt engine systems, no one even seems to realize that its not 1976 any more. If people *here* don't care, there's no hope for a "manufacturers"

how about a Control Line Industry Association or similar.  Its main objective is to assist manufacturers, distributors and retailers of all sizes in targeting newcomers.

    There hasn't been anything like "control-line" manufacturers in 50-60 years!  SIG was about RC, Top Flite was about RC, and everything else was gone and RC dominated it as soon as RC became practical in the early 70's. Brodak tried and still exists as of now - but also blew up the entire event from which aren't ever likely to recover. Everything else is cottage industries at most.

    There is no industry because there is no demand, and while you might think it is a chicken and the egg situation, that is what you have to overcome. RC "manufacturers" are largely concerned with ordering ARF foamies and RTFs "bond and flies"  from China and are in severe decline.

     Brett

[Bruce Guertin]

Then there is also the other draw, as a former boss of mine used to say: "He's discovered cars and girls"..

This is exactly what happened to me.

[Dan McEntee]

The one major player in this 'problem' has been completely missing in this entire conversation so far.  Where the heck are the manufacturers, distributors and retailers of control line kits and products??  They have the most skin in the game and the most to loose as control line slowly declines.  What are they doing to encourage newcomers to the hobby to sustain their own business??  A quick search online reveals The Vintage Model Co doing some work but as far as North American suppliers - a big fat ZIP.  Where are the beginner ready complete packages of current and modern airframe kits and powerplant selections?  Where is the one-stop source for all control line related information that a newcomer needs?  Where are the Youtube video build logs of beginner packages?

These days, potential customers want to find information and products and they want it feed to them dead simple and instantaneously.  WHY aren't the retailers providing this??  I'd like to hear from them but, my guess is they are so lean they just don't have the budget, manpower, talent or resources to commit to a meaningful effort.

Here is a thought - instead of a new control line general SIG (as already discussed probably wouldn't be very effective) how about a Control Line Industry Association or similar.  Its main objective is to assist manufacturers, distributors and retailers of all sizes in targeting newcomers.  'We' as experienced modellers could pool our talents and provide things like: CAD/CAM for new model designs, detailed qualitative testing of proposed powerplant packages, possibly an organized selection of online reference material, video build log material, etc.  All of this could be offered to the retailers for their use in exchange for increased exposure for our model flying clubs.  We scratch your back, you scratch ours.  They give us a page on their retail web site listing flying club locations and contact information.  If they can attract new fliers, we get new fliers.

If a person has the spark, we can supply plenty of oxygen but the retailers have to supply the combustibles to get the fire started.

   The manufacturers are OUT OF BUSINESS and not there anymore due to lack of sales!! In order to stay in business, you must have customers. If there is no one interested in your product, then you can not pay your over head and meet your payroll. They are out of business because the typical hobby shop has almost become extinct. Retail in general has changed tremendously and even if you look at everyday general household merchandise, think about brands and items that you do not see any more. Brick and mortar stores have disappeared. Malls have been erased from the face of the planet. Amazon and everyone else drove people to these computer screens to shop from home.  Look at the brands of automobiles that are not around any more. It really is a similar situation to what happened after WW-II as the population and economy adjusted to life after 5 years of world war and big advances in technology. What we are experiencing didn't just happen recently, it's been going on for 20 years. I last worked at a local hobby shop in 2015 ( after 35 years) and I could see the changes coming ten years before that. Where have you been?
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Dave_Trible]

I have to agree with you Dan- this fellow isn't current with where we are.  The hobby industry has been declining for at least twenty years-maybe thirty.  When was it Tower Hobby put hobby shops out of business?  They undercut hobby dealers on kits and engines because they didn't have to pay for brick and mortar stores.  Then companies like SIG suffered because they built their business around supplying hobby shops around the country.  Then thee were the jobbers that collapsed.  Here in KC like in many metros that had numerous hobby dealers in town the jobbers were the wholesale outfits where the hobby dealers went to buy the merchandise to put on their shelves.  I made some of those trips with the shop owner I worked for while I was in high school,   like a supermarket for all the hobby dealers in town.  This is what the hobby shop made money on.   All that was left was the secondary building supplies to sell and that didn't pay the bills.  Thats why they had to sell crafts,  beads and whatever else to try and stay open.  I guess in the day of internet it would have been inevitable anyway but leave it to say there is no hobby industry left to promote or support anything.  It's true that control line never really did make anybody rich and RC actually supported the manufacturers so that they kept making the things we need as well.  Now that RC modeling is sort of sold down river to imported foamies not even that provides enough revenue for manufacturers or hobby shops to stay around.   I think it is probably misguided to blame a hobby industry that doesn't exist any longer.

Dave

[Bruce Guertin]

While I'm a new returnee I'm not surprised to see this subject pop up. People these days just have no interest in doing anything that delays gratification any more than a half hour. I just stopped drag racing after a career of forty years. They are dealing with the same problems modelling is. The only youth involved there are the sons and grandsons. No one ever decides to start from scratch on their own like we did. Don't get me started on NHRA and the AMA magazine.

A real newbie is rare and for good reason. Start-up costs are high as are operating expenses. Kits can no longer be purchased with pocket change. Fuel's a pain in the rear to get. Flying sites are a long way away. (I just had to walk across the street when I flew.)  The very places newbies go, hobby shops and speed shops are a thing of the past. The places most would go for parts and advice are gone, replaced by mail order places owned by investment firms with no interest in the product beyond what profit it can generate.  Online is a very poor resource for good relevant information.

In the end I just don't think it's our job to "get youth interested". They are by personality either interested or they are not. If they have to be forced or coerced, they will quit the minute they turn 16 or when Dad stops. The youth of today is not necessarily, dumb or lazy, they just live in a different world than we do. And it's not their fault any more than ours was in the eyes of our parents.

I just intend to enjoy this while I can and not worry about it.

[Dan McEntee]

   Mother Nature cooperated and relaxed winter enough on Tuesday with some warmer temps and some low winds so I met Mark Hughes at Buder and committed some model aviation. We had a perfect example of what we are dealing with these days that day. A guy stopped to watch a bit, then got out of his car to walk over. He was a younger guy, late 20's, maybe early 30's.  Introductions all around and he asked if we minded if he took some photos. I immediately thought he had a quad copter but he said he just had a SLR digital camera with him. We have guys with quads stop by quite often, usually the same age range. This particular guy followed the same pattern. He was not aware that Buder existed, and had never seen nor heard of C/L models before. He walked around the circle as we flew, took some pictures, and then handed us each a business card and then left. We'll probably never see him again!! But he is pretty typical of the general public in the age range of 40 years old on down, I would imagine. Buder is kind of tucked away and hidden in a corner. If you don't know it's there, you might not see it driving by on the interstate, and the Missouri DOT and Highway Department have done all they can to make access more difficult these days so you can't even accidentally find it!! You have to be actually going to Buder Park to drive by it. It would be nice if there was more pedestrian and vehicular traffic going by where we could be seen, and we might pick up a tiny bit of new interest. The only public interaction is when the giant scale 3D guys are flying there, and they hit altitudes that get up above the trees, and can be seen from the highway. Sometimes the sight of an airplane, trailing smoke, spinning down and disappearing behind the trees triggers a phone call about a possible plane crash! I have a nephew that works for the St. Louis County Police at their main communications center that is close by, and he hears the calls come in.  Having people see our activity on a regular basis  would be a definite help especially if they see it in a positive light.
  Type at you later and MERRY CHRISTMAS!!
    Dan McEntee