The Failed Experiment

[Randy Ryan]

Well, here it is.  You remember "Stand off Scale"? Well, this is Stand off Stunt. The dissolved adhesive problem was minimized but not overcome, so along with some dust that I failed to brush from my T shirt (I forgot I had crawled under my truck to check something) and a few places where the adhesive won, it looks OK from a distance. As Randy Powell says, a finish is never finished, just abandoned, this one in now officially abandoned. I have never had such a difficult time and I am moving toward Mark Scarburough's philosophy of system finishing. I've gotten away with mixing stuff for years but I thing we've reached a point where the chemistry is so diverse that mixing is becoming unadvisable even for me after all these years. The KBS clear is great stuff, BUT, beware of using it on open bays, its hard to sand, almost impossible on open bays and I shutter to think about doing it on a I beamer. I'll be building a bashed Legacy soon but I will skin the wings, no more open bays for my modern stuff, but I had decided that before the KBS. The total finish weighs about 9oz with the clear comprising about 6 of it (here's your answer Clint). The model is now 65oz dry up form its original 58 when it was new. Added CF and such is what I attribute the weight gain too and in my opinion, it needed a bit more mass, guess I'll see soon.

So guys, if you happen to see this thing at a contest, I ask only one favor, don't look at it any closer then about 10 feet, it looks OK out there!!!

[Jeff Traxler]

Randy,That's the best looking failure I've seen all year.If you start from the git and plan for a solid surface,brushing can be done in places you can't spray.I don't think that is a failure if it opens doors,besides experinentin' is fun!!!How did ya get the golfers off the putting green for the photos?

[Mike Griffin]

Randy any new wing I build on a stunted will be sheeted with 1/16th.  I build mostly all Millenium wings anyway and they are still very light when fully sheeted... I have gotten totally away from dope.

Mike

[Dennis Adamisin]

Randy
I dunno, that is a pretty stunning color scheme, and I am sure it looks about 15 feet better than my stuff!

I'm going back to sheeted wings for paint, and open bays for 'cote.  I think each plays to the strength of those respective systems...

[Clint Ormosen]

Thanks for the weight info, Randy. Do you think you'd have saved a little weight if you had sprayed it? 6 oz of clear is quite a bit.

[Randy Powell]

Most of my, ah, more portly planes were seldom the result of heavy construction. It's usually a result of trigger finger disease.

[Randy Ryan]

Thanks for the weight info, Randy. Do you think you'd have saved a little weight if you had sprayed it? 6 oz of clear is quite a bit.

Probably could have Clint but a lil secret, the second coat WAS sprayed, I found the in flat surfaces brushing is find but on horizontal I either got lines or sags. So I thinned the stuff about 35% and narrowed the pattern way down. The stuff cures with humidity and I was afraid by the time I got from one side to the other I have overlap problems. So yeah, I'll keep spraying. It took allot to try to level the brushed areas sanding, so there is more clear than there has to be, still, the little additional weight I believe will do me more good then harm.

[Randy Ryan]

2 flights tonight, some minor trim issues but its the same ol Gladiator I love. Now I have the want to build the .35 version, I was always going to but other things got in the way.

[Jason Greer]

That looks awesome Randy!  I wish my successful finishes looked half as good as your failures.

Take care,
Jason

[Randy Ryan]

Randy,That's the best looking failure I've seen all year.If you start from the git and plan for a solid surface,brushing can be done in places you can't spray.I don't think that is a failure if it opens doors,besides experinentin' is fun!!!How did ya get the golfers off the putting green for the photos?

HAHAHAHA No Jeff, that putting green is actually my circle in the yard, just let em try kickin me off!!!

[MarcusCordeiro]

Beautiful ship!!!

Marcus

[FLOYD CARTER]

I completely agree with those who will not mix brands or types of paint/dope.

My normal procedure is to start and end with Brodak butyrate.  No compatability problems.

However, I recently ignored my own rules.  I figured the first couple coats of nitrate would fill better because of the high solids content.  I incorrectly assumed that acrylic lacquer was the same as nitrate.  During subsequent spraying of butyrate, horrible things happened.  Large craters appeared all over, and even the Brodak colors balled up and showed the clear acrylic underneath.

After my temper subsided, I sanded most of it off and found that Brodak white primer went on without curdling.  The primer takes a bunch of sanding, but the surface was finally smooth.  The remainder of finishing went without issues.

Next time, before I start painting, I will repeat several times, "Brodak Start To Finish".

Floyd

[Jeff Traxler]

Randy,I figured that was your circle.I have been to the last three Detroit contests and have yet to make the saturday pilgrimage.It was raining in 2010,I think your McCoy bit ya the year after that.Maybe this year Vince can get me there.Trax

[John Leidle]

   Nice looking plane, man.

[Randy Ryan]

Thanks John.


Guess I should make a clarification. This experiment was to use Duplicolor color over Duplicolor primer over butyrate then KBS Diamond clear. This is a compatible combination, I did learn that. The failure is 1) be really careful about the masking materials you use, this is the main reason for the failure, the lacquer thinner in the red attacked the adhesive on the tape and caused inclusions in the white that the KBS would not lay out on and 2) I love the Duplicolor paints but they are not good for open bays, they harden and developed cracks along the sheeting and cap strip edges when sanding and 3) The KBS clear is very hard and polishing open bays is not for the faint of heart, could be done I suppose, but I tried and quickly abandoned any notions of completing it.

This system would work with 2 provisions. NO OPEN BAYS!!! COMPATIBLE MASKING TAPE!!!!! I actually will try it again, I guess I made it sound like there was a material incompatibility but there wasn't, just a couple stupid mistakes that turned what could have been a kick butt finish into a mediocre one.

[EddyR]

Randy
  I have done a lot of real world testing with Duplicolor, I used it on planes I fly. In the beginning I also had the cracking on open bays. I found it was not the Duplicolor but the primer. I found spray can primer did not bond well to the surface under it. Since I stopped using grey primers my problems went away. I make primers from dope products. I had lots of pull ups also and that problem is now gone also.I use Duplicolor for everything now except the very last top cote as there clear will softer when exposed to exhaust residue. I have six years using it now. I only use dope to tighten the covering and as a top cote. The Duplicolor clear is none shrink and will not pull fillets.
 I hope this helps you and others .      Note I had a lot of cracking on this plane and recovered  just the open bays after two years of use. It has over one hundred flight now and no problems
 Ed

[John Stiles]

Randy,That's the best looking failure I've seen ..................

I'm gonna hafta say I  agree with that statement

[Randy Ryan]

I'm gonna hafta say I  agree with that statement

Thanks John, much appreciated. Like I said, without the other issues this would have been a rousing success. I expect the next one will be.

Ed, I appreciate your input but having used Duplicolor before I never had this issue with cracking. I am convinced that within their product line there are variations that effect hardness/flexibility, sandability etc. I've used their sandable primers and sometime they  sand beautifully, other times they never leave the "gummy" stage. Batch issues? Old stock? I don't know. The decision to not do open bays on my modern stuff really has nothing to do with the products, it was based on ease of finish and strength, both of which are important to me.

[Joseph Patterson]

         Randy,
                 I'll take your failures over my successes any anytime.
               Doug