TFR and control line

[Paul Taylor]

Anyone have any resources that defines if Control Line is affected by TFR’s.

[Ken Culbertson]

This is what I got when I asked "Bing Copilot":

"The prohibition of model airplane operations is specifically stated in the TFR in a paragraph restricting all sport aviation groups: “Outdoor radio control model aircraft operations are prohibited within the **nm circle for the specific times listed below. Control Line and Free Flight modelers should use discretion when operating within the TFR.”

That looks like a definite maybe - Ken

[Brett Buck]

This is what I got when I asked "Bing Copilot":

"The prohibition of model airplane operations is specifically stated in the TFR in a paragraph restricting all sport aviation groups: “Outdoor radio control model aircraft operations are prohibited within the **nm circle for the specific times listed below. Control Line and Free Flight modelers should use discretion when operating within the TFR.”

That looks like a definite maybe - Ken

   That's from the AMA but consistent with the definition of a "UAS". Control line is "not a UAS".

     Brett

[peter jurczyk]

What is a TFR?

[Brett Buck]

What is a TFR?

  Temporary Flight Restriction, a local closure of the airspace, usually for "VIP movement", AKA, Sleepy Joe Biden flying into town, the Super Bowl, or some equivalent.

    If you fly a full-size airplane into it (because you didn't bother to read a NOTAM (notice to airmen)), you might get a visit from a fully-armed F-16. You don't want that.

   The AMA sends warnings about these to local club officers, they are pretty frequent in the Bay Area.
    Brett

[Matt Colan]

  Temporary Flight Restriction, a local closure of the airspace, usually for "VIP movement", AKA, Sleepy Joe Biden flying into town, the Super Bowl, or some equivalent.

    If you fly a full-size airplane into it (because you didn't bother to read a NOTAM (notice to airmen)), you might get a visit from a fully-armed F-16. You don't want that.

   The AMA sends warnings about these to local club officers, they are pretty frequent in the Bay Area.
    Brett

Not to completely derail this thread…The Joe Biden regime fixed NOTAM’s. Because it’s sexist, they got renamed to Notice to Air Missions, rather than fix the larger issues with how to read them!

Pilots, read your NOTAM’s! We air traffic controllers can tell when you don’t when you ask for something that is NOTAM’ed out…or try to fly through a TFR

[Brett Buck]

Not to completely derail this thread…The Joe Biden regime fixed NOTAM’s. Because it’s sexist, they got renamed to Notice to Air Missions, rather than fix the larger issues with how to read them!

    That's the sort of common-sense problem-solving we have come to expect from the left!

    Brett

[Dan McEntee]

  Temporary Flight Restriction, a local closure of the airspace, usually for "VIP movement", AKA, Sleepy Joe Biden flying into town, the Super Bowl, or some equivalent.

    If you fly a full-size airplane into it (because you didn't bother to read a NOTAM (notice to airmen)), you might get a visit from a fully-armed F-16. You don't want that.

   The AMA sends warnings about these to local club officers, they are pretty frequent in the Bay Area.
    Brett

     The timing of the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee overlapping with the EAA Airventure Convention in Oshkosh , WI this past summer had the local F-16s hopping a lot!! The favored approach for those flying into Oshkosh passed right over Milwaukee, and it was amazing how many pilots didn't bother to read the TFR NOTAM in addition to the NOTAM just for flying into Oshkosh during the week before, week of and departing the week after, which is a lot of reading into itself!! I would think that some one would have looked into that on either the EAA, FAA, or Republican Party official when they planned the event. I can't imagine random modelers paying any attention to it. One time I looked into it and control line models were not included in the typical TFR and that was refined later on I think.

    I live near Lambert Field and we get visited by whoever is in office from time to time. Between where I live and the Mississippi River, there is an unincorporated area to the east where there are lots of woods, with large homes on even larger lots. There was, maybe still is, a gentleman that lived in one and owned a small, home built type helicopter. He worked or had a business in St. Charles County on the other side of the Missouri River. The confluence  of the two rivers is very close there. As the crow flies, it isn't that far, but by highway, it's along way around!! He was in the habit of flying his personal helicopter too and from work, and never really had to get above 500 feet to do it. A direct flight doesn't go any where near typical Lambert traffic, and he literally flew under the radar, so to speak. One day, a VIP was visiting, and he either did not read or disregarded the TFR and took off for work. He was soon greeted by two MOANG F-15 fighters who instructed him to land immediately at the nearest opportunity and was met by local law enforcement and a bunch of black SUVs!! The rest of his day didn't go very well, I would imagine!! 

    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Frank Imbriaco]

C/L flyers in North Jersey have had a lot of experience with this. When Trump was President from 2016-20, several RC flying fields located within the 30 mile range of Bedminster, NJ were affected. Bedminster has Trump National Golf Club and he spends lots of time there. Two of those fields are primarily RC but allowed C/L. To keep the peace with some RC flyers, the C/L flyers stayed grounded. Two dedicated C/L only fields in Middlesex and Lincoln Park flew as I recall. Jim Vigani was a CD of a C/L contest about 6 miles from Bedminster and he did a lot to keep the meet alive.Opine if you wish, Jim.

[jfv]

The FAA has agreed that the AMA's interpretation of the UAS regulations that both control line and free flight model aircraft do not meet the definition of a UAS and therefore are exempt from the regulations.  Attached is a copy of the email confirming the FAA's agreement to the AMA's interpretation.  So yes, you can fly control line during a TFR.  I just keep a copy of the email in my car in case someone asks when I'm flying. 

Jim V

[Paul Taylor]

The FAA has agreed that the AMA's interpretation of the UAS regulations that both control line and free flight model aircraft do not meet the definition of a UAS and therefore are exempt from the regulations.  Attached is a copy of the email confirming the FAA's agreement to the AMA's interpretation.  So yes, you can fly control line during a TFR.  I just keep a copy of the email in my car in case someone asks when I'm flying. 

Jim V

Thanks

[John Gluth]

The FAA has agreed that the AMA's interpretation of the UAS regulations that both control line and free flight model aircraft do not meet the definition of a UAS and therefore are exempt from the regulations.  Attached is a copy of the email confirming the FAA's agreement to the AMA's interpretation.  So yes, you can fly control line during a TFR.  I just keep a copy of the email in my car in case someone asks when I'm flying. 

Jim V

Thank you Jim, it's been a tough road getting to the obvious. As in, tethered at 70 foot max altitude.
John Gluth

[Brett Buck]

Thank you Jim, it's been a tough road getting to the obvious. As in, tethered at 70 foot max altitude.
John Gluth

    I urge you not to use the word "tethered" when talking to "officials" about it. Thats because there is such a thing as a "tethered drone", which is a typical quadcopter drone that is controlled by a trailing wire connection instead of a radio, and it definitely *is* a UAS and specifically mentioned in the rule. IF you stay "tethered" they will point to that paragraph and you will now be a UAS.

     Brett

[Dave Hull]

Well...not exactly:

§44801. Definitions
In this chapter, the following definitions apply:

(1) Actively tethered unmanned aircraft system.—The term "actively tethered unmanned aircraft system" means an unmanned aircraft system in which the unmanned aircraft component—

(A) weighs 55 pounds or less, including payload but not including the tether;

(B) is physically attached to a ground station with a taut, appropriately load-rated tether that provides continuous power to the unmanned aircraft and is unlikely to be separated from the unmanned aircraft;

(C) is controlled and retrieved by such ground station through physical manipulation of the tether;

(D) is able to maintain safe flight control in the event of a power or flight control failure during flight; and

(E) is programmed to initiate a controlled landing in the event of a tether separation.

[Brett Buck]

Well...not exactly:

§44801. Definitions
In this chapter, the following definitions apply:

(1) Actively tethered unmanned aircraft system.—The term "actively tethered unmanned aircraft system" means an unmanned aircraft system in which the unmanned aircraft component—

(A) weighs 55 pounds or less, including payload but not including the tether;

(B) is physically attached to a ground station with a taut, appropriately load-rated tether that provides continuous power to the unmanned aircraft and is unlikely to be separated from the unmanned aircraft;

(C) is controlled and retrieved by such ground station through physical manipulation of the tether;

(D) is able to maintain safe flight control in the event of a power or flight control failure during flight; and

(E) is programmed to initiate a controlled landing in the event of a tether separation.

  They are not going to look past the word "tether"

    Brett

[John Gluth]

  They are not going to look past the word "tether"

    Brett

Thanks, the point is appreciated. First thing came to mind is kites. I offered the term as perspective for the controline community. And yes, kites would typically have much higher altitude.

John

[Ken Culbertson]

Well...not exactly:

§44801. Definitions
In this chapter, the following definitions apply:

(1) Actively tethered unmanned aircraft system.—The term "actively tethered unmanned aircraft system" means an unmanned aircraft system in which the unmanned aircraft component—

(A) weighs 55 pounds or less, including payload but not including the tether; - Ok, we fit this one
 
(B) is physically attached to a ground station with a taut, appropriately load-rated tether that provides continuous power to the unmanned aircraft and is unlikely to be separated from the unmanned aircraft; - This one too except  for the power part. 

(C) is controlled and retrieved by such ground station through physical manipulation of the tether; - sort of 

(D) is able to maintain safe flight control in the event of a power or flight control failure during flight; and - nothing fits this one. Maintain safe flight after a control failure, seriously? 

(E) is programmed to initiate a controlled landing in the event of a tether separation. - I guess "DUCK"---splat. might be called a controlled landing. 

This regulation needs to be posted right under the "Control Line Flying Only" signs at our site's entrances.  We have a park policewoman who gives parking tickets if you are the only person there and a tire is touching a white line.  She gave one to a subcompact backed into a space for "Overweight Vehicle parked the wrong direction".  You will eventually win all of the confrontations, but your session will be ruined.   Keep a copy of this in your flight box. 

Ken

[Ty Marcucci]

For my club TFRs are silly.. We are surrounded next door by tall pines, taller than our wing overs, plus a tall stadium.  Any aircraft flying near us is in deep doo doo with various structures and not us.

[Dave Hull]

John,

You don't want to claim our models fly under the category of kites. There are FAA regulations on kites that would impact both Sepulveda Basin and Whittier Narrows. If you search the FAA regulations you will understand the issue.

Dave

[Dave Hull]

Ty,

We have a similar situation at Sepulveda Basin. We are inside the 5 mile radius from Van Nuys airport and underneath the normal departure path for the dominant wind direction. There are some fairly tall trees not too far away, but the main point is that if one of the large business jets came across low enough for our control line flying to be a factor, they've got much bigger (engine) problems. The modeler flyers would likely be the first people to arrive at the scene of impact to provide aid, but probably limited by the ensuing fireball from the large fuel load on departure.

When VIPs that qualify for a TFR come to town, they always come into LAX and deploy from there. I live pretty close to LAX and see the rotary wing entourage pretty frequently. But both Sepulveda Basin (16.06 mi.) and Whittier (20.33 mi.) are inside the 30 mile radius, so we get TFRs....

Dave

[Dave Hull]

John,

You don't want to claim our models fly under the category of kites. There are FAA regulations on kites that would impact both Sepulveda Basin and Whittier Narrows. If you search the FAA regulations you will understand the issue. You may want to check out the FAA rules regarding kites before you run down that rabbit hole very far….

Still looking for a current/official copy, but here’s what I think it says:

S101.13 Operating limitations.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate a moored balloon or
kite --
(1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;
(2) More than 500 feet above the surface of the earth;
(3) From an area where the ground visibility is less than 3 miles; or
(4) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport.

In other words, attempting to redefine control line airplanes as kites does not appear to relax any requirements at all. And, the FAA does not consider kites as kids toys to be ignored as irrelevant. Rather, they think they are sufficiently hazardous under certain conditions that they have long regulated them. Both Whittier Narrows and Sepulveda Basin flying fields are within the 5 mile boundary of an active airport.


Dave


(Not sure how editing a prior post turned into this duplicate. Sorry guys....)

[Ty Marcucci]

Our field is over 5 miles from Redstone Army Airfield and ten miles from Hunstville International..  We are surrounded by light standards that are as high as our over head eights..The only thing that ever flies over us is a few BIG Ravens.. Not sure if they eat balsa but they seem very interested in our models.

[Motorman]

I just ignore TFR's, the Feds haven't showed up yet. Probably because I'm just flying a little toy plane on a string.

MM

[Mark wood]

Our flying site is less than a half mile from McConnel AFB and  the gate guards can see our airplanes at times. I have had the armed investigation by the MP's. It really wasn't that big of a deal. He was mostly interested in whether the airplane was equipped with cameras or not and if it could violate their no drones area. On that particular session it wasn't and it couldn't. I simply explained it was tethered and could not fly into a zone where it would have any means of interfering with the base operations or aircraft and did not fall under the guidance for UAVs.  I explained we have been operating here for many years and had proper insurance, etc. He was completely satisfied and left stating he would make notes in their ops-pec that we operate there and were ok.