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Author Topic: TEOSAWKI  (Read 14474 times)

Offline Mark Misegadis

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TEOSAWKI
« on: November 23, 2011, 11:49:41 AM »
I know that these are no longer available as Clayton Smith has passed on. I only recently became aware of this plane after reading the posting about Clayton and doing searches on the name Teosawki.

I would be interested in building one if the information is available anywhere on this plane.

Mark

Offline Bill Little

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2011, 11:57:01 AM »
Hi Mark,

Clayton made the Teosawki at first and only sold them as completed models.  There is a drawing on 8 1/2 X 11 typing paper that shows the parts.  The foam leading edges were made by Clayton.

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Offline Bill Allen

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2011, 12:09:38 PM »
Mark:  #1).: Contact ALLEN BRICKHAUS (PAMPA member) as he has flown this design for 7-8 years.  He can give you the "inside" on the design's ideosynchrisies:
Take a look at BUILTRIGHT'S new "SAKITUMI"......looks very good!             Bill Allen                  ;

Offline Bill Little

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2011, 12:15:14 PM »
Mark:  #1).: Contact ALLEN BRICKHAUS (PAMPA member) as he has flown this design for 7-8 years.  He can give you the "inside" on the design's ideosynchrisies:
Take a look at BUILTRIGHT'S new "SAKITUMI"......looks very good!             Bill Allen                  ;


Hi Bill,

Most everyone around here (except me) has (or had) one of the TEOSAWKI.  The best way to explain the design is to think of about a 600 sq.in. modern combat plane with a lengthened fuselage.  Also, the outboard wing is 1/2" longer than inboard.  The plane does remind me of several of the older slow combat planes.  Mongoose, etc., running slow........

Big Bear
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Offline pipemakermike

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2011, 12:49:20 PM »
I have a number of scans and dxf files that I have collected over the years.  The pictures are too big to upload but I am happy to make them available by putting them on my web site.  In the meantime here are PDF versions of the drawings
Regards
Mike Nelson

Offline pipemakermike

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2011, 01:51:20 PM »
There, Now I am interested again. So here are a couple of fullsize versions.  These are taken from the 2 scans on the previous posting but with the magic of SolidWorks I have stretched them to full size, joined them into a single sheet and also, using a free web tool, tiled the big sheet so that a fullsize (or near) version can be put together from 36 (count them 36) A4 sheets.
I haven't checked the scale other than to run a ruler over the scale so a definite case of YMMV
Regards
Mike Nelson

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2011, 10:29:30 PM »
Thanks much, Mike!

SK

Offline Mark Misegadis

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2011, 09:15:46 PM »
Thanks for those drawings. They are great. I hadnt realized that the fuse was built right into the wing. Is that foam leading edge sheeted?

Mark

Offline pipemakermike

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2011, 03:17:33 AM »
Hi Mark

The leading edge is covered with light paper or heavy Silkspan.  We used to use Teletype printer paper for the F2D models.  I plan to cover the rest of the wing with thin Mylar to give the sort of strength and stiffness that the Russian f2D models have.  I stil have to sort out how to cut the LE cores but I have enough offcuts of foam from wing cutting to experiement with.  I am still not sure where the CG is and despite asking here, I quess that I will probably have to find out the hard way ???
Regards
Mike Nelson

Offline Leester

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2011, 05:44:46 AM »
Have you contacted Allen Brickhaus as suggested above ???
Leester
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Offline pipemakermike

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2011, 06:08:24 AM »
Have you contacted Allen Brickhaus as suggested above ???
I have now
Thanks Leester
Regards
Mike Nelson

Offline Mark Misegadis

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2011, 11:33:22 AM »
Bill L:  Thanks for the reply. Where would one find this original drawing you refer to ?

Bill A:  The Sakitumi looks like a fine plane.  I just checked out the thread on it!


  Did Clayton ever mention how many of these planes he had built?

Mark

Offline Bill Little

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2011, 11:58:09 AM »
Bill L:  Thanks for the reply. Where would one find this original drawing you refer to ?

Bill A:  The Sakitumi looks like a fine plane.  I just checked out the thread on it!


  Did Clayton ever mention how many of these planes he had built?

Mark


Hi mark,

Not TOO many were built, and he finally gave me a set of leading edges not long before he passed.  I will build it over the winter, and Phil Cartier's SLC seems to be the choice for covering, but several were "updated" by their owners to Coverite and similar.  Plus new contours to the profile fuselage.

I will try to locate the 8 1/2" X 11" drawing he gave me to build from and send a copy to you.  OS .46LA is perfect.

Bill
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Offline Mark Misegadis

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2011, 09:36:35 AM »
Thank you Bill let me know.

Mike hows your progress so far on your plans.

As far as the foam leading edge.. I am assuming that the iron on covering overlaps that just like a sheeted LE. I take there are no issues with applying heat to it? Or was low temp covering used?

Any Idea where the name came from for this this plane?

Mark

Offline Bill Little

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2011, 09:44:00 AM »
Thank you Bill let me know.

Mike hows your progress so far on your plans.

As far as the foam leading edge.. I am assuming that the iron on covering overlaps that just like a sheeted LE. I take there are no issues with applying heat to it? Or was low temp covering used?

Any Idea where the name came from for this this plane?

Mark

Hi Mark.

The covering looks like Phil Cartier's SLC.

Name?  The End Of Stunt As We Know It
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Offline pipemakermike

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2011, 02:03:58 PM »
Hi Mark

I am well on with the plans I need to make one.  I ma not really drawing plans but building a 3D CAD model and getting a set of templates for the parts from the model.  I am currently struggling with the cutting of a usable set of LE cores.  I feel like a one armed paperhanger at present but I hope that the next set of foam cutting templates work better.  Once I have sorted out the shapes and methods I will publish a set of the templates.
Regards
Mike Nelson

Offline Bill Little

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 03:40:17 PM »
Hi Mark

I am well on with the plans I need to make one.  I ma not really drawing plans but building a 3D CAD model and getting a set of templates for the parts from the model.  I am currently struggling with the cutting of a usable set of LE cores.  I feel like a one armed paperhanger at present but I hope that the next set of foam cutting templates work better.  Once I have sorted out the shapes and methods I will publish a set of the templates.

Hi Mike,

You are aware that the outboard wing is 1/2" longer than the inboard on the TEOSAWKI, right? (reverse asymmetry)

Bill
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Offline pipemakermike

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 04:27:53 PM »
Yes bill although I thought that it was only 1/4" longer
Regards
Mike Nelson

Offline Mark Misegadis

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2011, 02:00:57 PM »
There is another post elsewhere that says 1/4. Mark

Offline Bill Little

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2011, 03:23:44 PM »
There is another post elsewhere that says 1/4. Mark

Hi Guys,

I have a set of leading edges that Clayton gave me which are marked and are 1/2" longer on the outboard, and he clearly told me that it is 1/2".

Bill
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2011, 08:10:00 AM »
Dave Trible designed the "Shameless" with a longer outboard wing.  It is a profile.   When you think about it,  check where the center of the weight is on a profie model.  I would go with 1/2 inch as a 1/4 inch is not very much. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2011, 08:19:44 AM »
Dave Trible designed the "Shameless" with a longer outboard wing.  It is a profile.   When you think about it,  check where the center of the weight is on a profie model.  I would go with 1/2 inch as a 1/4 inch is not very much. H^^

Hi Doc,

There is no doubt that Clayton used 1/2" longer outboard wing.  Since he built all of them (except maybe one or two) I know that he used 1/2".  I have no idea where the 1/4" came from.  It was a shock when Clayton passed.........

Big Bear
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Offline Mark Misegadis

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2011, 09:14:01 AM »
Cut and Paste from another thread here. Not to say that it is 100% accurate. Mark

TEOSAWKI
The End Of Stunt As We’ve Known It
Design By Clayton Smith

TEOSAWKI is a simple durable low cost model using readily available .40 to .46 engines that, when measured by flying performance, can carry the CL stunt newcomer from beginner to a 500 point advanced pattern. This one really flies like a “prostunter,” maybe better. TEOSAWKI is a tool to confidently perfect needed skills without the burden of trying to carry, at the same time, the marginal performance of the newcomer’s typical precision stunt models with their seemingly endless tradition of complications. The prototypes have won and placed competitively at contests including Brodaks, King Orange and the AMA Nationals. Even while giving up all builder of model appearance points in expert it has garnered competitive 500+ scores.

Construction will seem unorthodox to veteran stunt builders. The methods are those perfected over the past decade by the Eastern European and Russian combat designers. Even at only 35 ounces ready to fly and 635 sq. inches of wing its durability belies its combat heritage. Crashes into pavement hard enough to break off engine mounts hasn’t stopped TEOSAWKI from flying the same day.

You will find that the TEOSAWKI executes the Precision Aerobatics Pattern easily and at your will. Don’t get distracted by how it looks or its seemingly unusual flapless design. Just get it in the air. Perfect your skills with TEOSAWKI, “show and shine models” will come later.

Specifications:
Span: 53”
Length: 41”
Area: 635 sq. inches.
Root Chord: 14” 13.5% airfoil.
Tip Chord: 10” 12.5% airfoil.
Mean 25% Aerodynamic Chord: 0 degrees sweep. ¾” behind CG.
Step down elevator/stabilizer.
Weight: Approx. 24 oz excluding engine and fuel tank.

Here’s something to get the Prostunt guys really going. TEOSAWKI is asymmetric. Having one wing longer, asymmetry, is not all that unusual especially with older designs. Kind of out of favor today however. But those asymmetric designs and even new ones today have a longer inboard wing. Now the surprise. TEOSAWKI has a longer outboard wing. Not by much, just a quarter inch. Just enough to assure the separation between thrust line and the mean aerodynamic center(MAC). Phil Cartier wrote the best explanation of this in the June 2000 issue of Flying Models. Bill Netzeband had a good comparative test some time ago in Stunt News. What this really amounts to is to place the engine bearer side of the motor mount in alignment with the centerline of the wing. This differs from the typical profile model which has the center of the fuselage instead of the center of thrust bisecting the wingspan. That conventional design results in the thrust line being outside the wing’s physical centerline and closer to the MAC. Because a CL model is flying in a circle the wing’s center of lift is outside the physical plan form centerline of the wing. At the slow speeds of Stunt models this distance between centerline of thrust and MAC is small making its relationship sensitive for good line tension. The closer the thrust line is to the MAC the poorer the line tension. On the TEOSAWKI we are talking about just an extra quarter of an inch to assure that separation. Get the thrust line outside the MAC and you’ve got a freeflight with lines attached. Sort of like an All American Sr. taking off. (You have to fly an All American to understand.) But then why not put the engine thrust line on the inboard wingtip, plenty of separation. A couple pounds of outboard tip weight too, thats’s why. Enough theory for now.

FLYING

Strongly recommend a stock OS 46LA running the stock muffler (the muffler baffle may be removed. Fly on 60 to 65 foot .015 or .018 lines. Prop sizes of 10/5, 10/6, 11/4.5, 11/5, 11/6, and 12/4.25 have worked well. TEOSAWKI’s have proven easy to fly forgiving planes. Good in wind. Good tension everywhere with equal turn qualities. Can turn on a dime if needed. Capable of full pattern even with laps over 6 seconds. Ideal at 5 to 5.5 second laps.

Now fly it. You’ll discover hidden in the TEOSAWKI a character that you’ll know is special. It is The End Of Stunt As We’ve Known It, TEOSAWKI.

Wayne Foster
AMA 959
Winston-Salem, NC

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2011, 09:34:12 AM »
If you move the wing 1/4" out, then the outboard wing is 1/2" longer than the inboard wing.

SK

Offline pipemakermike

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2011, 09:48:08 AM »
If you move the wing 1/4" out, then the outboard wing is 1/2" longer than the inboard wing.

SK

Hmm!  That isnt how I read the text (I have a copy of the same text)  It does say that "TEOSAWKI has a longer outboard wing. Not by much, just a quarter inch"
Now my rather crude measurements of the poor copy of the plan that I have, lead me to a leading edge core length of 23.4" inboard and 23.65 outboard so that is what I am building.

I guess that what we need os someone to run a ruler over an original model
Regards
Mike Nelson

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2011, 10:15:46 AM »
Cut and Paste from another thread here. Not to say that it is 100% accurate. Mark

TEOSAWKI
The End Of Stunt As We’ve Known It
Design By Clayton Smith

TEOSAWKI is a simple durable low cost model using readily available .40 to .46 engines that, when measured by flying performance, can carry the CL stunt newcomer from beginner to a 500 point advanced pattern. This one really flies like a “prostunter,” maybe better. TEOSAWKI is a tool to confidently perfect needed skills without the burden of trying to carry, at the same time, the marginal performance of the newcomer’s typical precision stunt models with their seemingly endless tradition of complications. The prototypes have won and placed competitively at contests including Brodaks, King Orange and the AMA Nationals. Even while giving up all builder of model appearance points in expert it has garnered competitive 500+ scores.

Construction will seem unorthodox to veteran stunt builders. The methods are those perfected over the past decade by the Eastern European and Russian combat designers. Even at only 35 ounces ready to fly and 635 sq. inches of wing its durability belies its combat heritage. Crashes into pavement hard enough to break off engine mounts hasn’t stopped TEOSAWKI from flying the same day.

You will find that the TEOSAWKI executes the Precision Aerobatics Pattern easily and at your will. Don’t get distracted by how it looks or its seemingly unusual flapless design. Just get it in the air. Perfect your skills with TEOSAWKI, “show and shine models” will come later.

Specifications:
Span: 53”
Length: 41”
Area: 635 sq. inches.
Root Chord: 14” 13.5% airfoil.
Tip Chord: 10” 12.5% airfoil.
Mean 25% Aerodynamic Chord: 0 degrees sweep. ¾” behind CG.
Step down elevator/stabilizer.
Weight: Approx. 24 oz excluding engine and fuel tank.

Here’s something to get the Prostunt guys really going. TEOSAWKI is asymmetric. Having one wing longer, asymmetry, is not all that unusual especially with older designs. Kind of out of favor today however. But those asymmetric designs and even new ones today have a longer inboard wing. Now the surprise. TEOSAWKI has a longer outboard wing. Not by much, just a quarter inch. Just enough to assure the separation between thrust line and the mean aerodynamic center(MAC). Phil Cartier wrote the best explanation of this in the June 2000 issue of Flying Models. Bill Netzeband had a good comparative test some time ago in Stunt News. What this really amounts to is to place the engine bearer side of the motor mount in alignment with the centerline of the wing. This differs from the typical profile model which has the center of the fuselage instead of the center of thrust bisecting the wingspan. That conventional design results in the thrust line being outside the wing’s physical centerline and closer to the MAC. Because a CL model is flying in a circle the wing’s center of lift is outside the physical plan form centerline of the wing. At the slow speeds of Stunt models this distance between centerline of thrust and MAC is small making its relationship sensitive for good line tension. The closer the thrust line is to the MAC the poorer the line tension. On the TEOSAWKI we are talking about just an extra quarter of an inch to assure that separation. Get the thrust line outside the MAC and you’ve got a freeflight with lines attached. Sort of like an All American Sr. taking off. (You have to fly an All American to understand.) But then why not put the engine thrust line on the inboard wingtip, plenty of separation. A couple pounds of outboard tip weight too, thats’s why. Enough theory for now.

FLYING

Strongly recommend a stock OS 46LA running the stock muffler (the muffler baffle may be removed. Fly on 60 to 65 foot .015 or .018 lines. Prop sizes of 10/5, 10/6, 11/4.5, 11/5, 11/6, and 12/4.25 have worked well. TEOSAWKI’s have proven easy to fly forgiving planes. Good in wind. Good tension everywhere with equal turn qualities. Can turn on a dime if needed. Capable of full pattern even with laps over 6 seconds. Ideal at 5 to 5.5 second laps.

Now fly it. You’ll discover hidden in the TEOSAWKI a character that you’ll know is special. It is The End Of Stunt As We’ve Known It, TEOSAWKI.

Wayne Foster
AMA 959
Winston-Salem, NC

In carefully reading all of the text...while it does say that the outboard is 1/4 inch longer it also says that the thrust line  (outside of the engine bearers) is on the center of the wing  rather than the the center of the fuselage being on the wing center-line.
As was very judiciously pointed out by Serge above  this really means simply moving the center of the engine bearers 1/4 inch (1/2 inch bearers) to the inside of the wing result in the outboard wing being 1/2 inch longer than the inboard.  However ...if you consider the thrust line the center of the airplane (probably most correct) then the wings are equal length.  The center of lift of the wing in flight is likely more associated with the thrust line (balance considerations being accounted for) than the center of the fuselage.
Simple Huh?

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2011, 04:51:00 PM »
So when is someone going to get permission to start making the TEOSAWKI again.   But, 1/4 inch or 1/2 inch, will it make that much difference???? VD~

Better yet how about full size plans?? ??? ??? ???
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
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Online dave siegler

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2011, 03:35:13 PM »
I am missing something.  Is there a rib or template for the inboard side of the foam leading edge?

I can make a tip template from the last rib, but not the not the inboard side.  Also is the LE spar bass with a balsa filler in front or is like an F2d where the spars and LE is tapered to match the core?
Dave Siegler
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Offline pipemakermike

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2011, 04:00:08 PM »
Hi Dave
No your not missing something.  there is no core cutting templates on the drawing.  I have worked out my own basically by extrapolating from a Russian combat wing leading edge.  I have also found it very hard to cut the slot in the front of the leading edge for the spar shown on the plan so I have changed it to the style of the Wakkerman combat wings:-
http://home.wxs.nl/~wakke007/bouwen/bouwen0.htm
I have also used the cutting template design of Keith Renecle see his 25 size stunt plans page 6:-
http://www.keithrenecle.co.za/files/Eze%2025.pdf
I haven't cut any cores using this design template yet but it looks quite straight forward.  I just need to persuade my wife to help with the cutting.
I have bought some Ø4mm pultruded rod to put in the leading edge slot to join the 2 halves of the leading edge after the body it in place.
I should have a full set of templates for all the parts soon that can be printed on an A4 printer at fullsize but I won't post them until I have built a model and ironed out any bugs
Regards
Mike Nelson

Online dave siegler

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2011, 10:11:55 PM »
just take R4 and scale it up to match the tail of R1.  From that I can make templates. 
Dave Siegler
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Offline Allen Brickhaus

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2013, 07:52:38 AM »
Luckily I own two TEOSAWKI's by Clayton.

Allen Brickhaus

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2013, 08:40:33 AM »
Too bad we can't  get someone to get the rights to kit this plane so more people could enjoy it.   I've seen it fly an always wanted one for the future. 
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2013, 10:19:13 AM »
The SAKITUMI which is inspired by the TEOSAWKI is kitted by Walter Umland in .25 and .46 size, plus electric option in the .46 size, is a great flyer and readily available. I have built both the .25 and .46 size and can vouch for them. I believe the design is a collaboration between Pat Johnston (sp?) and Eliott Scott.

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2013, 12:43:12 PM »
To be totally honest, in my opinion the Gialdini Rayette flies at least as good as a TEOSAWKI if not better.
Steve

Offline Will Davis

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2013, 03:41:55 PM »
I have been flying a Clayton Smith TEOSAWKI  for over 9 years, great model, just got my hands on a second one, a earlier version with a few very minor  differences in the stab ,  it will be refurbished  for competition over the winter ,

The original TEOSAWKI  models built by Clayton are covered in FASCAL  combat covering , with some form of light blue  iron on covering on the wing tips, all other finish is clear
Will Davis
"Carolina Gang"

Offline pipemakermike

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2013, 02:12:59 AM »
Here are the templates that I mentioned some time ago

tewasaki_templates.pdf
tewasaki.pdf

« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 06:11:57 AM by pipemakermike »
Regards
Mike Nelson

Online dave siegler

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2013, 08:12:13 AM »
Great Mike!

Earlier you had said you had trouble with the leading edge spar. 

this guy makes F2d kits and he has a very nice way to do it

Dave Siegler
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2013, 08:59:35 AM »
Thanks for the link.  My problem is finding decent foam or virgin foam.   Shipping is so expensive anymore.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Mike Griffin

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2013, 09:59:00 AM »
Luckily I own two TEOSAWKI's by Clayton.

Allen Brickhaus


And I am jealous...  :-\

Offline pipemakermike

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2013, 01:47:49 PM »
Thanks Dave for the video link.  He certainly makes it look easy.  The key to is is taking the time to jig it up properly

Regards
Mike Nelson

Offline Chad Hill

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2013, 07:09:21 PM »
I couldn't help but notice the Teosawki stats quoted above (replies #22 and #25) which stated that the root chord airfoil is 13.5%, while the tip is 12.5%. Is this correct, thinner airfoil at the tips? Maybe a typo, shouldn't it be thicker?

Offline phil c

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Re: TEOSAWKI
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2013, 05:35:54 PM »
Clayton bought several boxes of TEO leading edges before he passed away.  I've still got the templates.  12 sets(12 planes) costs $45 plus shipping, between $10-15 depending on zip code.

I'm is Spokane, WA until 1/3/2013 but I'll pick up email while on the trip.

Phil C
phil Cartier


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