stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Ron Cribbs on October 12, 2014, 07:37:09 PM
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I had been looking for a Tatone handle when someone mentioned I should get a Fancher handle and it was available through Tom Morris.
How does one get a hold of Tom? I looked online and came up with nothing except a defunct website formerly CLC. I am assuming it's a mail order thing perhaps?
Can anyone steer me in the right direction?
Ron
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Would this be the one?
http://stunthanger.com/hobby/product_info.php?cPath=24_45&products_id=83
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Well...no, that's not a Ted Fancher handle. It's a good option, but they're pretty heavy, and yes, it matters. Removing the side pads and replacing them with balsa would help. For most folks, there's too much wood, which is the point of making them "kits". Carve, file, or sand away whatever doesn't feel good for your hand. I really don't like the "scallops" for the fingers, but it's quick to remove most of that. You want the handle to be a snug fit across your index and pinky fingers.
"TED Handles" come from Carl Shoup at <shoupentstatorrepair (at) prodigy (dot) net> These are really a treat to use...but some make copies with carbon fiber plate to further reduce the weight and improve the feel of the plane when the line tension gets "marginal". When finished, they feel pretty much like a "Hot Rock"...warm and fuzzy! And there are two sizes, described as "stock Hotrock" and "Hotrock plus 1/2" (or large). Again, it's on you to shape it to fit your hand the way you'll like it. I found this very easy with Carl's kits, but have also seen them being used with minimal shaping, and they didn't feel too bad.
I got "clever" and made a simple jig to help me get the laser cut layers aligned better than I might otherwise managed. A slab of pine board and three nails push-fit into snug holes drilled with a drillpress. I'm looking for a picture and not finding it. I used CA for assembly and epoxy finishing resin (2 coats) for the finish. Some fishing rod handle or tennis racket tape finishes them off quite nicely. H^^ Steve
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Would this be the one?
http://stunthanger.com/hobby/product_info.php?cPath=24_45&products_id=83
I don't know, I've never seen a Fancher handle, from web images it looks like a Hot Rock with hard points. I fly with a Hot Rock now and while I like the way the handle feels I was wanting a more solid attachment with the plane.
Brodak has something similar to what I described, but again not sure.
Thanks for the link!
Ron
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Steve,
Thanks for the rundown and pictures. Looks like what I envisioned. I will contact Carl as soon as I post this. I appreciate it!!
Ron
Edit: I sent an email to the address given. It was returned as failed
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It's shoupentstatorrepair@.........
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It's shoupentstatorrepair@.........
That worked, thanks Russell!
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It's risky to post an email in correct format, because "web crawlers" go through forums and blogs (is there a difference?) to snag email addresses and sell them to spammers. It's not considered nice to post somebody's email address without changing the @ to (at) and the . to (dot). I'm not sure if it really helps a lot, but we gotta try to safeguard against those spammers. That's why you'll usually see email addresses in the "revised" format. FYI H^^ Steve
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Steve,
There was an extra "p" in the address you posted. I got around the other part.
I appreciate it just the same.
Ron
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Ah! That's where the "p" in Prodigy went off to while I replaced the @ and the . ! I went back and fixed it, so future generations of CL nerds can contact Carl. That's a joke, son! :'( Steve
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I don't know, I've never seen a Fancher handle, from web images it looks like a Hot Rock with hard points. I fly with a Hot Rock now and while I like the way the handle feels I was wanting a more solid attachment with the plane.
Brodak has something similar to what I described, but again not sure.
The Brodak version has mostly the same features, but its very heavy, and, it doesn't have the very clever clamping feature that Ted's has.
Brett
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Another handle you could use which is similar to the the Ted and Tom Morris handles is the Kaz Minato hard point handle. They're not cheap but the handles are super light an feel great in your hand. I have and use all three handles and my personal preference is Kaz' handles feel the best, followed by Ted's handles and then Tom Morris. Like what has been said earlier, the extra wood on the handle makes it weigh more and it feels much bulkier compared to the other two handles.
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Sorry for linking to the wrong handle. I didn't realize the Ted handle was that much lighter. I have and use the Morris handle. I may have to build my own lighter version using the line clips from the Morris handle. Thanks for all the information and pictures.
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I always find the comment about a handle being too heavy as kind of curious. I have seen and made some handles in my time that were pretty heavy and pretty big. I think too big is a worse deal in that it is kind of cumbersome and the possibility that your hand can slip up and down the handle. But how heavy is too heavy for a proper fitting handle? i an example of the three main handle in question. The Ted handle with thong and clips weighs 2 oz. with no finish on it. The Tom Morris hard point weighs 2.85 oz. with thing, clips and no finish. The Brodak large handle weighs 4.85 oz. with thing and clips. It approaches what some and maybe even me call too heavy, but when you have a .60 size stunter out on the end pulling 20 to 30 pounds during maneuvers, do you really notice that? I'm not sure if I would or not but may experiment a little.
As far as cable handles, I have been using Morris style handles for quite a while and have never had a cable even start to fray yet, and I keep and eye on them. I had a design that was similar and uses a hardware store channel for the front bar that I built myself, but when Tom came out with his, I figured I couldn't buy the material and spend the time scratch building one for what he supplies, and have stuck with his ever since, but change out the flat bar for the hardware store channel on occasion. I think it's a matter of what you use for cable. If I'm making a handle I use what they call aircraft cable that they sell at the hardware store. I've tried some bicycle control cable also with good results. I always make sure that where the cable changes direction and rubs against something that there is a nice smooth radius for it to meet against, and anything that acts as a clamp has a radius on it also. Little details make a big difference sometimes.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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I always find the comment about a handle being too heavy as kind of curious.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Me too, must be all about perception. I fly with both Fancher and Brodak handles and do not even give a second thought about what the handle weighs.
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Me too, must be all about perception. I fly with both Fancher and Brodak handles and do not even give a second thought about what the handle weighs.
It makes a HUGE difference in the amount of feel you have, it's not even a subtle effect.
Brett
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Carl is sending me a handle, it probably won't help me to fly any better, but I have heard so many good things about hard points that I would like to give it a try.
Ron
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Hope you got the line clip making tool also.
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Hope you got the line clip making tool also.
That's might be helpful but certainly not necessary. I have only used standard clips on my regular airplanes. You make the small day-to-day adjustments with the slider.
Brett
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That's might be helpful but certainly not necessary. I have only used standard clips on my regular airplanes. You make the small day-to-day adjustments with the slider.
Brett
To which I would only add that both Brett and I use a very vertical handle at neutral and thus only tiny slider adjustments are necessary as long as we use lines cut within reasonable fractions of identical lengths. If your lines are more TLAR than exact in matching length being able to use different length clips to achieve a comfortable neutral without large differences in up and down attach point overhang is a good investment. Anything over an 1/8 inch or so will start to provide feel differences between up and down inputs and force the pilot to adapt to the machine rather than allowing the machine to be adjusted to suit the pilot.
Ted
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<snip> You make the small day-to-day adjustments with the slider. Brett
Could you please explain "small day-to-day adjustments"? Why would you adjust neutral, once it's 'set'? Or are you adjusting the airplane and thus needing to adjust the handle for neutral? H^^ Steve
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Could you please explain "small day-to-day adjustments"? Why would you adjust neutral, once it's 'set'? Or are you adjusting the airplane and thus needing to adjust the handle for neutral?
It is very common to slightly alter the neutral to even out inside/outside turn difference or make it easier to fly inverted or upright. Whether it is because the airplane is different or the pilot is different, who knows, but +- 1/64" is the sort of range I use.
Brett
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I find that a slight neutral adjustment can be advantageous with density altitude changes from morning to afternoon. This is especially true here in Arizona where temperatures from morning to afternoon often vary by as much as 40+degrees. My theory is that the airplane may need just a bit more positive attitude to maintain a given altitude at higher temperatures and or increases in moisture content of the air. This tends to give a "heavier" feel on the up line for a given altitude. Stunt planes definitely tend to have a "heavier" feel on corners etc. at 110 degrees at 2400 ft above sea level!
Small adjustments for neutral and even sensitivity can often make things feel better.
Maybe even, as Brett says, a bad night before the day's flying simply changes the pilots perception of where his hand needs to be... LL~ LL~
At any rate that's my story and I'm stick'n to it!!!
Randy Cuberly
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Or pushrod expansion/contraction due to heat or humidity. Actually, more likely fuselage length changing while pushrod remains the same. ;) Steve
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Or pushrod expansion/contraction due to heat or humidity. Actually, more likely fuselage length changing while pushrod remains the same. ;) Steve
That happens, too, but some days I want the control pressure in the maneuvers to be slightly different, or am having an issue with getting the bottoms in the right place, whatever, if you need a tiny adjustment just to make you feel better, just do it.
I switched handles on Saturday at Golden State*. I had been flying with the orange handle for most of the year, but on that particular day, I just didn't like the feel and I was hurting my pinky, so I changed to my red handle. They are the same spacing, the same width (within about .001, I measured it) and the shape was just a bit different. . I also ended up with about 1/32" of neutral change which fixed some issues that I decline to discuss here. Bear in mind I have been flying the exact same airplane for *8* years. It doesn't matter, if something isn't working, change it.
Brett
*you will note that I DID NOT fly in the contest itself. I got violently ill about 4:30 Sunday morning and there was NO WAY I was even going to make it from the car to my judges chair without keeling over, and no possibility of even getting the engine started. It was a non-starter.
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It is very common to slightly alter the neutral to even out inside/outside turn difference or make it easier to fly inverted or upright. Whether it is because the airplane is different or the pilot is different, who knows, but +- 1/64" is the sort of range I use.
Brett
Being able to feel a change of +/- .015 is remarkable. Do you do neurosurgery on the side? You probably could. y1
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Being able to feel a change of +/- .015 is remarkable. Do you do neurosurgery on the side? You probably could. y1
Well, muscle memory is a remarkable thing. Top level stunt fliers do the same basic things over and over thousands of times. Neuro surgeons don't have nearly that much practice. Yes I can definitely feel a .015 change in a neutral adjustment on my handle, and I'm not even in the class with Brett or the very top guys.
I think it's likely that most expert stunt fliers that practice a lot can feel that sensitivity. It certainly doesn't mean you can't fly the airplane, it just doesn't feel as comfortable doing so. It causes a loss of some precision.
Randy Cuberly
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Being able to feel a change of +/- .015 is remarkable. Do you do neurosurgery on the side? You probably could. y1
I assure you that I am nothing special in any regard. The neutral and level flight can be way off and still be able to fly. When Ted and I, er, Unknown Pilot #1 and #2, flew the ARF Strega before and after the line carrier had slipped about 1/4" - unbeknownst to us. We heard a "twang" during the pull test, looked at everything, and didn't notice anything wrong. Then we flew it. I couldn't really tell the difference, it felt a little odd but not way off compared to all the other issues it had. Ted said it "felt squirrely", but nonetheless flew a very competitive flight. After a few hours, I figured it out, and then we had a debate on whether or not to change it back. This all in the middle of a contest. I think we left it alone.
Same thing at the 2008 NATs. My regular handle had fallen out of my toolbox and been left at the field, so I went to find it the morning of qualifying on Wednesday. No handle, so I grabbed the handle I had for the Skyray, eyeballed the neutral, and flew it, no practice. Neutral was close enough (since all my lines are within 1/32" of each other), but it felt a little "slow". Someone found my handle and turned it in, so I got it back. The spacing was 3 notches on each side larger, about 3/4".
The difference between that, and the situation I am talking about, is a matter of concentration. Had I needed to fly with the handle as I showed up with it, I could have done a decent job of it. But changing it just made me feel more comfortable in terms of control loads, particularly on the outside rounds and a few of the outside corners. I had been doing competitive square 8's, for example, but my 1/64' or so change made it go from taking some extra effort to get the left lower outside corner correct, to being automatic. The airplane is typically a square 8 machine, if it takes a lot of effort, something needs to change.
Brett
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"the ARF Strega before and after the line carrier had slipped about 1/4" - unbeknownst to us."
"Line carrier" is the official name for the stainless steel doodad the lines hook to on a TED Handle? I've also had one slip a bit on a pulltest, and why I (and most others around here) drizzle some CA in there and scrunch the screws down as hard as we can. Clips are easy to change...and predictable. Paul, Howard, and Mike are using CF handles with no adjustments except line spacing. Howard got his Jim Lee/Derek Moran clip maker modified to have 1/32" adjustments (two pins on the nut, vs. one).
As an aside, I asked Paul about his adjustments from 2,300' home altitude to about 500' at Salem. He said that he adds 2 grams of tipweight...before he leaves home. I had rather expected a narrower handle spacing. I'd be widening the handle spacing if I went from Auburn (50') to 2,300'. H^^ Steve