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Author Topic: Techniques for flying in the wind..  (Read 17689 times)

Offline Joe Yau

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Techniques for flying in the wind..
« on: April 27, 2010, 11:55:05 AM »
I'm just wondering what are the trims necessary to make on the plane to fly in 15km-25km wind. and what about flying techniques?   Its just has been too windy at the field to fly a few of my stunter that seems fine up to 12-15km.  but it don't seems to like the 15-20km+ conditions.

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 11:28:20 AM by Joe Yau »

Offline John Stiles

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Re: Flying in the wind..
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2010, 11:57:10 AM »
I'm just wondering what are the trims necessary to make on the plane to fly in 15km-25km wind. and what about flying techniques?   Its just has been too windy at the field to fly a few of my stunter that seems fine up to up 12-15km.  but it don't seems to like the 15-20km+ conditions.

Thanks in advance.
Same Here!! H^^
John Stiles             Tulip, Ar.

Offline Larry Fulwider

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Re: Flying in the wind..
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2010, 12:38:36 PM »
. . .  in 15km-25km wind . . . seems fine up to 12-15km.  but it don't seems to like the 15-20km+ conditions.

Thanks in advance.

Quickie approximation for those of us who can't do it in our heads --

     12 km/hr ~= 7.5 mph ~= 6.5 knots
     15 km/hr ~= 9.3 mph ~= 8.1 knots
     20 km/hr ~= 12.4 mph ~= 10.8 knots
     25 km/hr ~= 15.5 mph ~= 13.5 knots


Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Flying in the wind..
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2010, 01:06:23 PM »
I don't use any trick wind setups-my best wind plane is my best plane for whatever conditions.  A decently trimmed and powered plane should handle fine in winds of 25 kph.  Something that does help is lots of practice in windy conditions, when you get to a windy contest, you can fly in the wind because you have done it before many times...
Steve

Offline LARRY RICE

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Re: Flying in the wind..
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2010, 01:18:30 PM »
     If you learded to fly a 1/2a model then you know how to cope with the wind. This is why I believe that starting with the small models is important.
     Take off with the wind to your tail.
     Do stunts down wind.
     Dive into the wind, climb out of the wind
     When the engine cuts out land, do not try for a long glide.
     Be prepared to step back and/or feed in up elevator to save your model.
     And most important never comb your hair facing into the wind.

larry
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Flying in the wind..
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2010, 02:26:04 PM »
8 to 12 MPH is pretty much the norm around here. The one item that helped me the most was having an engine with enough of the right kind of power to pull through it and maintain line tension overhead. If you know the airplane will do what you ask the wind becomes less threatening. You still have to be aware of position and fly accordingly which just takes practice but a strong power package will make it much easier.

Also this is one thing ARF's are great for, don't risk something you've spent a year building and finishing to practice in the wind, use something that you can afford to take risks with and just do it.

Offline Joe Yau

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Re: Flying in the wind..
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2010, 09:33:40 PM »
Thanks for the replies.  H^^

I gather that a strong running engine setup is the way to go.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Flying in the wind..
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2010, 08:07:27 AM »
You finally got it.  But, that isn't the only thing.  The plane has to be straight and true.  Take offs that I have done in the past and was confirmed at last years stunt clinic is to position your plane on the upwind side about 10-15 feet before you get to the judges.  It makes for a much smoother take off.  Planes don't jump off like when I take off down wind.  Try it you will like it as somone used to say. H^^
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Offline Joe Yau

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Re: Flying in the wind..
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 08:47:03 AM »
Quote
    If you learded to fly a 1/2a model then you know how to cope with the wind. This is why I believe that starting with the small models is important.
     Take off with the wind to your tail.
     Do stunts down wind.
     Dive into the wind, climb out of the wind
     When the engine cuts out land, do not try for a long glide.
     Be prepared to step back and/or feed in up elevator to save your model.
     And most important never comb your hair facing into the wind.

larry
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I've thought about using something smaller then a .60 size stunter for practicing..  Does the 1/2a have enough power to keep the plane out there though? (in approx 15-20+km wind)  
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 09:28:57 PM by Joe Yau »

Offline Bill Turner

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Re: Flying in the wind..
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 09:06:28 AM »
My flight instructor used to tell us when someone would say its too windy to fly.  "Its a WIND Machine!"  and we'd go fly in the wind.

Just remember to do stuff downwind and take advantage of the wind.  Upwind the moving briskly air will take advantage of you.

$Bill
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steven yampolsky

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2010, 05:25:44 PM »
I'm just wondering what are the trims necessary to make on the plane to fly in 15km-25km wind. and what about flying techniques?   Its just has been too windy at the field to fly a few of my stunter that seems fine up to 12-15km.  but it don't seems to like the 15-20km+ conditions.

Joe, I fly even when the chairs fall over. Early on, I found that when winds get above 10km, flying circle becomes free!!!  LL~ . I find flying in high winds challenging but a LOT of FUN! I fly in anything under 35km. Once winds get above 35km, it's no longer practice flying, it's a battle for survival.

There are things you need to do to prepare for flying in high winds. Most important concept to remember is that stunt flying is ALL about energy management. Converting kinetic energy into potential and back. Energy management is critical when flying in windy conditions. Here's what works for me:

Setup:

1) Don't bother flying nose heavy models in high winds. There is no way around this: the further forward CG(Center of Gravity) from CL(Center of Lift), the larger the arm of force, the mode wind will push the model around. Make sure models have CG where designer intended them. If unsure where it it should be, balance the model so that CG is 6-12mm in front(can someone verify that it's in FRONT and not BEHIND, I'm always fuzzy about this) of CL.
2) Never trim in high winds. Make sure to trim the model when winds are less than 5km.
3) if you are using 3 blade prop, switch to larger diameter 2-blade prop with SQUARE tips.
4) increase launch RPM's to get  .1-.2 faster lap times.

Flying maneuvers:

Takeoff:
Launch so that the wind is in the back of the model. The idea is have wind help the model accelerate(build up energy) on the downwind side(right side) of the circle. The goal is to get airborne just before you cross over from downwind to upwind side of the circle. The reason for doing it before crossing over is that you will need to establish gradual climb before you get to the up wind side. Once you're on the upwind side, the model will begin to slow down. slow = poor response to control inputs. If you are not established on the climb out, it will be difficult to change direction on the upwind side. As a general rule, the model will respond slower to control inputs on the upwind side of the circle.

Level flight:
There is not much to do here but to prepare for one of the most difficult maneuvers: wingover. To do that, you need to build up momentum. Start accelerating the model by walking backward in circle, keeping the model in font of you. The last lap before the wingover you should be walking backward as fast as possible without tripping ovver.

Wingover
This is the most difficult maneuver because the model is heavy(full of fuel) and has forward CG. Make soft entries into turns 1 and 3.The entry should be as if you are starting a round circle rather than a typical square entry. Another critical component is to enter directly upwind. You have to abandon the notion that you can steer the model in high winds. No amount of corrections will make the model fly straight wingover if you did not enter directly downwind. If you miss the turn and the model starts move sideways, accept the error and fly the rest of the maneuver in the direction the wind is blowing.

Inside and outside round loops, Inside square loop
Flying round loops directly downwind will cause the model to move faster and faster with every loop. This is called the "windup" and it may cause the model go so fast that it will fly into the ground. Key here is to avoid windup by biasing the center of loops to the left of the downwind for inside lopps and to the right for the outsides. Amount of bias is directly proportional to how high the winds are. More wind, more bias. Start by flying insides 3m past direct downwind. If you get the amount of bias correct, the model will fly loops as if there is no wind! Oh yes, one critical detail: NEVER FLY above 45 degrees!!! think of 45 as "do not cross" line. If you do, the lines will go slack and the model will be at the mercy of Boreas, the got of the Wind!

Outside Squares
Same bias rules apply as with round loops. At the entry into the maneuver, the model will be going very fast. Turning down will make it go even faster. There is very little you can do so be prepared to turn hard and quick. There is one very good trick to lower the entry speed to somewhere manageable: do not start climb to enter outsides until you are on the downwind side of the circle. Speed loss due to the climb will offset the speed gain provided by the wind on the downwind side. The steeper the climb, the slower the entry will be. Don't make it too slow though: slow = lack of control.

Triangle

Bias just like you would with rounds. The first turn will be on the upwind side and the wind will make the model turn harder that usual so there is no need to make that hard first turn. Let wind help you. The less you turn, the more energy you will have for turn 3.

Horizontal round and square 8

DO NOT BIAS! DO NOT FLY ABOVE 45! These maneuvers should be directly down wind. Be prepared for the model to slow down significantly at the top and adjust your timing accordingly. Most pilots develop a rythm for squared 8's: evenly spaced turn, turn, turn. That rythm is your enemy in high winds! Fly by watching position of the model instead.


Vertical 8

This seems to be the most difficult maneuver for most pilots because most pilots fly large inside loop which places the outside loop past 90 degrees. Past 90, there is not just the wind slowing it down, the wind s actually pushes it DOWN towards you! The key here is to keep inside loop tight below 45, directly downwind. Remember the wind up issue when flying round loops directly down wind? Well, here we NEED that wind up to build energy for the outside top loop! Another key element here is to keep line tension up. One way to do it is to shorten the lines. I typically fly with my hand almost extended. When flying the outside loop, I bring the handle closer to my chest and begin to I will begin to kneel on one knee. What this does is decrease the radius of the circle the model flies which increases line tension. Stand back up and move the hand to regular position for the down side.

Hourglass

Unlike other maneuvers that have just one or two tricks to keep flying, hourglass needs 5 tricks!
1) Build up energy by walking backwards like just like you did for the wingover. slowly build up the speed, so that you are walking the fastest during the last 1/4 lap before turn 1.
2) make a shallow turn up. Since turn 1 takes place on the upwind side, the wind will make the turn steeper than usual so you need to account for it.
3) The wind will push the model after turn 1 and will help the model speed up. At this point you need to build your energy for turns 2 and 3. Extend you arm completely if possible
4) As you approach turn 2, the lines will begin to slack and you will not be able to make that turn unless you keep the tension up! Start contracting your arm and kneel. Shortening the flying radius transfers built up energy into model speed and line tension.
5) Turns 2 and 3 should be done very quickly one after the other. Turn 2 forces the model to turn hard into the wind which kills most of the energy. The more you stay up there the slower the model will get.

After turn 3, the model will be traveling down plus be pushed by the wind. This will translate into a lot of speed. Turn 4 will come very quick and suddenly. You need to keel the energy. Stand back up and extend your arm. If the wind is really strong, I go as far as make a step forward..

Overhead 8
Make a gradual entry from level flight. The key here is not to loose energy on the way up. Spend as little time flying into the wind by keeping the loops tight. Most pilots fly big overhead loops. DO NOT DESCEND BELOW 45!!! Large loops mean very long flight into the wind! Another trick is to contract the arm/kneel when flying into the wind and to release/stand on the downwind side of the loops. It is also VERY IMPORTANT that you fly the maneuver DIRECTLY overhead. This is again has to do with how much time you spend flying into the wind.

Clover
There is little you can do to keep the tension. All you have is make sure you don't cross 90 degrees on loops 1 and 3. Contract arm/kneel as needed to keep line tension, stand/release when wind is pushing the model to store the energy. On the final climb out, the model has lost the most energy, it's climbing AND flying into the wind. This is where models get lost. As soon as you cross 90 degrees, the maneuver is over and you can start the turn downwind.

Landing
Try to land on the down wind side as the wind as this will be where line tension is the highest.This is important since the model will start moving INTO the wind and will try to lift off. you need line tension to keep the model down on the ground. I usually aim for 5m before directly downwind as my landing point.

I hope this helps

Offline Joe Yau

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2010, 08:25:17 AM »
Thanks for sharing the detailed infos Steven. H^^   That's exactly what I was looking for.  I'm just a bit curious what size plane/set-up you use to fly up to 35km wind?    I will have to try out some of the techniques next time out. D>K
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 09:27:35 PM by Joe Yau »

steven yampolsky

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2010, 09:13:17 AM »
^ Thanks for sharing the infos Steven. H^^ I much appreciated it.  That's exactly what I was looking for.  I'm just a bit curious what size plane/set-up you use to fly up to 35km wind?    I will try out some of the techniques next time out. D>K

This technique applies to all model sizes. The smallest model I've used this on was a .29 Fox powered profile Tomahawk. The largest was a 4500cm2 Cardinal. The larger the model, the more critical it becomes to fly proper wind technique.

For the last 3 years, I've been flying exclusively models based on a design by David Cook called the Lightning. Dave has been around stunt since the 50's and is a famous wind flier. The Lightning has been an evolving design for a path 50 years. The model handles the wind VERY WELL! That said, any modern design when built straight and trimmed properly will handle most any wind. Here are a few examples of its latest incarnations:
 





As you can see, it has smallish (4190cm2) high aspect ratio wing. It's a small model by modern competition standards but it cuts through the wind like it's nobody's business. Being smaller, makes it easy to pick a engine for it. Any modern piped stunt engine starting with PA40(lite or regular) is more than enough power to haul the model through the wind.

Joe, the formula for good wind model is easy: pick any modern design, build it straight, trim it right and it will fly great in the winds. The key to wind flying is practice those techniques. When the winds are picking up, go fly! The more you fly in high winds, the more you are going do develop the feel for it. If there is one thing I can suggest when learning to fly in the wind is to use the same model. If you switch around, you will never develop the feel for a model's handling of the wind.


Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2010, 12:29:04 PM »
Ow! What happened to the wing?  Did you hit your flight box on landing?
Steve

Offline phil myers

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2010, 03:40:50 PM »
Steven, thanks for the tips on flying in strong wind. One thing though, you've got me confused, do you say enter a wingover directly upwind or directly downwind? I need to know coz its going to be blowing a hooly this weekend and I'm tired of waiting for calm weather! Appreciate answer before Saturday (best day according to the forecast. 15-20 mph)
Cheers Phil

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2010, 04:08:11 PM »
Hummm?
Words of advice from Wiley Wooten when flying in high Texas wind...
Just use only the downwind side of circle...(Spoken like a true Combat Ace!) LL~
Don Shultz

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2010, 04:09:37 PM »
Ow! What happened to the wing?  Did you hit your flight box on landing?

I was just thinking the same thing.  steve I hope that was a long while ago?!?

The Stoli Special is the plane I flew 6 times after the Lee contest, and after I flew Steve kept saying that I flew the plane with PW like corners  :o
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2010, 05:17:02 PM »
I keep both airplanes and golf clubs in my car.  Today when I left the house the winds dictated that I turn south, toward the golf course.  I hope I can go north tomorrow, but I'm prepared for another disappointment.
Paul Smith

steven yampolsky

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2010, 08:20:18 PM »
Steven, thanks for the tips on flying in strong wind. One thing though, you've got me confused, do you say enter a wingover directly upwind or directly downwind? I need to know coz its going to be blowing a hooly this weekend and I'm tired of waiting for calm weather! Appreciate answer before Saturday (best day according to the forecast. 15-20 mph)
Cheers Phil

Correct entry into the wingover is directly upwind, flying up and towards the downwind side. Turn 2 takes place on the downwind side.

steven yampolsky

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2010, 08:42:15 PM »
I was just thinking the same thing.  steve I hope that was a long while ago?!?

The Stoli Special is the plane I flew 6 times after the Lee contest, and after I flew Steve kept saying that I flew the plane with PW like corners  :o

The accident was 3 years ago and yes, it was the flight box. The repair did not impact handling in any way: what more can I as for!

Here's what it looked like just before the repairs began:


Here's my friend Rick showing how to properly repair the wing. He was off his medication that day!  LL~


I tried to save all the pieces and then carefully glued the jigsaw puzzle back together


I had to take some of sheeting off to repair the ribs. when faced with the choice, choose the bottom of the wing for that:


As you can tell by the picture, this is a slow process but the goal is to put the model back together without affecting performance in any way:


Here everything is back together, ready for finishing.


By the way, while looking through these photo's I found a cool picture:


This is Rick Campbell is preparing to cut a pipe tunnel into his white Eruostyle(Lightning derivative). He originally flew it with Retro 60 but decided to stick to something he knows works 100% every time: PA61 on a pipe. If you look closer, pictures I posted earlier, show Eurostyle in flight after conversion.
On the background, Blue and white profile is Fox .29 powered Tomahawk. It handles the wind very well too. Immediately below it are the beginnings of another Stoli Special.



Online Brett Buck

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2010, 08:52:50 PM »

Takeoff:
Launch so that the wind is in the back of the model. The idea is have wind help the model accelerate(build up energy) on the downwind side(right side) of the circle. The goal is to get airborne just before you cross over from downwind to upwind side of the circle. The reason for doing it before crossing over is that you will need to establish gradual climb before you get to the up wind side. Once you're on the upwind side, the model will begin to slow down. slow = poor response to control inputs. If you are not established on the climb out, it will be difficult to change direction on the upwind side. As a general rule, the model will respond slower to control inputs on the upwind side of the circle.



   Most of this is OK, but I pretty strenuously disagree with this one. I don't think you *ever* want to get the wind into the tail on takeoff in any appreciable breeze. It will certainly prevent taking off too quickly but the chances of nosing over are way too high. In very high wind I start the take off with the nose quartering into the wind, about 45 degrees or so past downwind. It's more prone to taking off too early but at least you have control over it. I have made plenty of high-30's to 40 point takeoffs in 15 mph winds or so, just have to fly it right from release. As the wind drops I move closer to dead downwind.

    The alternative is to release from dead upwind. This tends to prevent the airplane nosing in as you weathervane, and you will at least have some airspeed before you get wind into the tail. If it doesn't accelerate fast enough, you will get around to the 90 degree point from upwind but not be up to the wind speed, then you are prone to tipping over again.

     Brett

p.s.    all of the above is for pavement. Over grass, it's even more critical to take off with a significant component of the wind into the nose, to permit the lowest possible takeoff speed. Lift it off as soon as possible, but don't let it climb  - just pop it off to about 3-6" altitude, then climb from there. Note that this presumes that you are comfortable flying the airplane 3" off the ground, but if it's in trim and the control response is predictable, should be no issue.

   Landing on the grass is the same sort of thing. Unlike pavement you want to land with some headwind component as well. It's very important to set up the landing so that you are 3" or so altitude but low speed at dead downwind, and touch down maybe 15 degrees past downwind. Further around will reduce the groundspeed, which is good, but also makes it more likely to balloon. The very best grass landings I have had were with the wheels just skimming the grass as I passed dead downwind, with a very soft touchdown about 15-20 degrees and a rollout into a dead headwind. If you mess up, and touch down dead downwind, the chances are high that you will grab the grass at the relatively high speed and flip onto the nose.

    Of course, usually grass isn't as consistent as pavement, and you might have to adjust for the condition of the grass or the ground underneath. You really need to walk the circle before the contest to find the bad spots. The grass will typically look pretty even but the ground underneath might not be.

    Ted mentioned it a long time ago, and I have come to agree with him - with the current crop of engines, the only maneuvers I really worry about in the wind are the landing, and more so, the takeoff. If you can get it off the ground, it'll make it through the rest of the pattern.

     
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 10:55:11 AM by Brett Buck »

Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2010, 10:52:22 PM »
Walk to the flying field . It loosenes up the leg mussles for leaping about if the plane turns in.!

A .35 size thingo ,as its lighter if it lands on you . Dont 'hit' full down at the top of the hourglas.

Fly open coners first.                                       Practise Sprinting . And long jumps .

Theres an Aeromodellor 'Mustunt' P-51 B ( a modified Nobler ? ) A 25 FSR on a 9x6 prop , if its blowing
over 18 knots.Or it wont 'stay put' .I used 55 Ft of .018 Laystrate ,so as not to break lines.

A 2 kilo plane with G-51 Twangs .018 in 20 Knot winds in bottom Sq Corners . Needs 2 hands and heels
dug in. Golf shoes are quite usefull on a grass Circle.A crash lid aint a bad idea either . . .

Thers a lot of forces involved, so stay away from other peoples windows , etc.

The 45 Oz things a lot better idea. (if your under 20 stone and not a Lumberjack ) and could be said to
be 'Quite Auxilerateing ' in a 30 Knot Breeze. A bit too auxilerateing actually. A stiff whiskey would sooth
the nerves .Post flight .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The most dangerous manouvreing is into the Clover Leaf , and across the top of the hourglass .

If your NOT quick at running , wait till its close to leap, or your as likely to run into it.

The 'usual problem' is the rudder / fin blows OUT. ,the plane does a hard left over your right shoulder.
If your real quick (anticipate) you might catch it in two leaps.Otherwise its a six pace sprint.or worse.

A head on a 360 Deg swivle helps as . . . If you catch it ,on full 'Top' control,as soon as its turned level
you NEED to get the nose DOWN (as in NOT up )again.Semi stalled at low airspeed with a hurricane under it

It tends to go with the wind otherwise.And you have MORE sprinting to do,Which can be tiresome,so fly smoothly.

Anyone can see , an FAI Combat wing with a .25 in it would be more sensible for training.The Phantom used 12 Canopies
Dont get to close to trees initially.or youll land in them.Later wandering abot a field learns you about the relationships of
Trees And Aerodynamics.

Keep the flight box well back !. Driving homes probly not a good idea either .
                                                                                                                                                           Matt.

(funny thing was , I never broke the windy weather prop,a black 9 x 6 tornado. )

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2010, 02:48:37 AM »
Who among us has not flown a control line airplane into a tree?
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Offline phil myers

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2010, 05:12:44 AM »
Correct entry into the wingover is directly upwind, flying up and towards the downwind side. Turn 2 takes place on the downwind side.

Thanks Steve  Phil Myers Norfolk England

Offline Larrys4227

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2010, 06:49:51 AM »
No amount of corrections will make the model fly straight wingover if you did not enter directly downwind.

Steve - You should fix your entry so there isnt further confusion .....  :-)

Larry

Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2010, 07:29:02 AM »
There is nothing more fun than flying a Bi Slob in very strong winds.. n~ y1 <= #^
My purpose in life is to serve as warning to others

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Offline Peter Hess

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2010, 10:35:40 AM »
Steven:
Thank you for taking the time to describe wind management in the various maneuvers.  I am still learning the pattern and fly in something of a valley through which prevailing winds are funneled and accelerated, where marginal conditions seem to prevail, and anything resembling ideal conditions are very rare.  Your explanations will be of great help in avoiding disasters resulting from incorrect placement of maneuvers.  Avoiding disasters resulting from pilot error are something else entirely and I have yet to find a satisfactory solution to those.  However, if it were easy it would not be so much fun.  Thanks, again.
Peter Hess
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2010, 11:55:30 AM »
Who among us has not flown a control line airplane into a tree?
I for one have not,,
I have flown into LOTS of grass, asphalt, and an occasional cyclone fence however,,
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2010, 12:46:38 PM »

Inside and outside round loops, Inside square loop
Flying round loops directly downwind will cause the model to move faster and faster with every loop. This is called the "windup" and it may cause the model go so fast that it will fly into the ground. Key here is to avoid windup by biasing the center of loops to the left of the downwind for inside loops and to the right for the outsides. Amount of bias is directly proportional to how high the winds are. More wind, more bias. Start by flying insides 3m past direct downwind. If you get the amount of bias correct, the model will fly loops as if there is no wind! Oh yes, one critical detail: NEVER FLY above 45 degrees!!! think of 45 as "do not cross" line. If you do, the lines will go slack and the model will be at the mercy of Boreas, the got of the Wind!

Outside Squares
Same bias rules apply as with round loops. At the entry into the maneuver, the model will be going very fast. Turning down will make it go even faster. There is very little you can do so be prepared to turn hard and quick. There is one very good trick to lower the entry speed to somewhere manageable: do not start climb to enter outsides until you are on the downwind side of the circle. Speed loss due to the climb will offset the speed gain provided by the wind on the downwind side. The steeper the climb, the slower the entry will be. Don't make it too slow though: slow = lack of control.

Triangle

Bias just like you would with rounds. The first turn will be on the upwind side and the wind will make the model turn harder that usual so there is no need to make that hard first turn. Let wind help you. The less you turn, the more energy you will have for turn 3.


 I am sorry but I really do not agree with this. I fly EVERY maneuver directly down wind. Yes this does cause some "wind up" but the airplane stays in the same spot. When you bias the wind is always trying to push you're plane towards down wind, so it is very hard to keep consecutive maneuvers in the same location. The stronger the wind the worse the problem and by biasing more you complicate this problem even more. I have tried both ways and found that for me it is better to fly directly down wind and just MAN UP and hang on. Three fast loops in the same spot will always score better than three slower loops that "walk" towards down wind. This is just my .02

Offline TDM

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2010, 03:34:12 PM »
This is my take on flying in the wind.

For take off i do it from the front of the judges or maybe a bit to the right of them. Think about the wind and the rudder. The wind will want to roll the plane on the outside of the circle. Does this make sense? If you did not have the lines attached the plane would roll in to the wind. The acceleration is softer and it will prevent the plane to leave the pavement and jump.

Contrary to popular belief I bias the square loops opposite way as the loops. For the inside square loop I bias it to the right and this is why. When you climb you are down wind you have nice line tention for turn one and two then as you fly inverted you fly against the wind which slows you down and in turn this makes for a easy to enter turn three with low speed and it will stay there without much of wind up making turn four pretty easy.  The same happends at the outside square loop. As you pass the down wind position you start to fly against the wind and the model slows down so you can attack turn one to slow the model down and turn two is relatively easy. Turn 3 and 4 are downwind so they should be no problem.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 09:02:10 PM by Dorin Morosanu »
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Offline Joe Yau

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2010, 08:33:49 PM »
Thanks again for all the replies.. H^^  

« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 04:46:31 AM by Joe Yau »

Offline Matt Spencer

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2010, 02:10:24 AM »
I for one have not,,
I have flown into LOTS of grass, asphalt, and an occasional cyclone fence however,,

You forgot the flight box/field kit !

Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2010, 11:10:36 AM »
Howard,

I have never flown into a tree!  Close a time or two but nope!

Jim Pollock   H^^

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2010, 12:00:00 PM »
Yeah, I've never flown into a tree, either.  Whats up with you hitting a tree Howard?
Steve

Offline Joe Yau

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2010, 12:06:20 PM »
Howard,

I have never flown into a tree!  Close a time or two but nope!

Jim Pollock   H^^

^ can't say I have either.. other then in the ol' days flying .15 combat against a guy using much shorter lines then mine and resulted a fly away.. yes! into a tree about 300ft away. H^^ but thats not stunt though..

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2010, 02:57:50 PM »
>>Who among us has not flown a control line airplane into a tree?<<

Not me, but I've flown into the ground plenty of times.
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Offline Noel Corney

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2010, 03:14:42 PM »
Went to fly a display not long after finally being able to do the pattern.Field was a bit small but paced it out o/k to the fence one side spectators on the other, Took off straight into the tree outside the fence.More damage getting the plane out of the tree than the impact.Noel.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2010, 03:47:58 PM »
Who among us has not flown a control line airplane into a tree?


Howard ...Still assulting tress?? The green people will be at your house soon.. n1 n1  LL~

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2010, 03:51:38 PM »
Triangle

Bias just like you would with rounds. The first turn will be on the upwind side and the wind will make the model turn harder that usual so there is no need to make that hard first turn. Let wind help you. The less you turn, the more energy you will have for turn 3.

One thing Steve didn't mention, is that as the wind comes, make the triangles taller and pointier.  By taller, I mean you come up straighter and straighter, and you come down straighter and straighter, but not 90 degree turns.

Matt Colan

Offline NED-088

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2010, 05:14:41 PM »
Who among us has not flown a control line airplane into a tree?
Not into, but through...
On the practice circle at the WCh 1990 in Blenod, France.

As often is the case here in Europe, circles are layed out too small.
For some strange reason people seem to believe that nobody uses maximum line length. :##
I didn't expect this possible during a WCh. but I learned not to assume this much common sense the ugly way.

The parking lot of the municipal swimming pool had some mighty maples surrounding the place.
While executing the hor. eights I felt a strong jerk on the handle, but held on. n~
I was urged to move to the back edge of the pilot's circle and finished the flight in level laps.
Inspection showed a hole in the bottom wing sheeting just outside of the UC leg.
The evidence I really hit the tree was peeking out. A little twig with some tiny leafs still on it.... %^
'If you think there's something about my English, you're right. I'm Dutch... '
But I DO play Stunt and I DO fly Bluegrass.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2010, 05:54:49 AM »
One thing Steve didn't mention, is that as the wind comes, make the triangles taller and pointier.  By taller, I mean you come up straighter and straighter, and you come down straighter and straighter, but not 90 degree turns.



Keep trying young man.  There is no 90 degree turns in a triangle. S?P  But, the more a person flies in the wind the better he/she will become with a good coach. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Joe Yau

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2010, 11:09:32 AM »
One thing Steve didn't mention, is that as the wind comes, make the triangles taller and pointier.  By taller, I mean you come up straighter and straighter, and you come down straighter and straighter, but not 90 degree turns.



I've notice a few flyers at the field does this types of Triangles even in the calm.  not sure how it reflects the scores though.  

steven yampolsky

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2010, 11:50:11 AM »
You forgot the flight box/field kit !

Twice

steven yampolsky

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2010, 11:58:59 AM »
One thing Steve didn't mention, is that as the wind comes, make the triangles taller and pointier.  By taller, I mean you come up straighter and straighter, and you come down straighter and straighter, but not 90 degree turns.

This is due to wind "squishing" the sides closer together. This is where calm weather "rythm" is working against you. It it VERY IMPORTANT that the maneuvers are flown by looking at the shapes, not timing based "rythm". This is a very common mistake.

As to the tallness of the triangle, most people have them too wide anyways. Another consideration is judge perceptions. Due to the distortions of flying in a sphere, triangles(loops too) look squished from the top from judge's position outside of the circle. To a pilot, the same maneuver looks perfectly symmetrical.

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2010, 12:47:43 PM »
Howard ...Still assulting tress?? The green people will be at your house soon.. n1 n1  LL~

I have not flown into a tree since 1963. 

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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2010, 02:37:46 PM »
I have not flown into a tree since 1963. 



Bill Rich   had a tree problem when he first started flying, tree ate several of his planes..he got his AXE and  cut the tree  down  :-)

Randy

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2010, 05:49:22 AM »
I have not flown into a tree since 1963. 



Was that the one and only tree at Swope Park that spectators used for shade?  Nothing but soccor fields out there now, but, the original asphalt strip was still there the last time I ventured out that way.  Also you don't go there by yourself. H^^
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Online Howard Rush

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2010, 01:41:51 PM »
No, it was in Indiana.  I remember the Swope Park tree, though. 
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2010, 04:59:39 PM »
I once flew into a car!  Made a round hole in the middle of the hood
("bonnet" to some of you).  Not hard to do when an idiot drives his
car right through the circle!  And he was an AMA member, too!  That
means AMA doesn't pay damages because one AMA member cannot
make a claim against another AMA member.  (Go figure).

We both accepted equal responsibility.  He for not noticing a plane
flying.  Me for not noticing a big car getting too close.

Floyd
"Growing old is easy.
 Staying old is hard"
AMA #796  SAM #188  LSF #020

Offline Joe Yau

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Re: Techniques for flying in the wind..
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2010, 07:08:00 PM »
This is due to wind "squishing" the sides closer together. This is where calm weather "rythm" is working against you. It it VERY IMPORTANT that the maneuvers are flown by looking at the shapes, not timing based "rythm". This is a very common mistake.


Thanks Steven.   I see this in a few other maneuvers as well.


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