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Author Topic: Team USA and the World Champs  (Read 54575 times)

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #250 on: August 14, 2014, 10:09:24 AM »
Go this from Tania from facebook. Here are the scores after the first two rounds.

Matt Colan

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #251 on: August 14, 2014, 10:10:57 AM »
Here are the scores for flights 1 and 2 of the finals.

Just so I don't get accused of not giving credit this pic came from Taniq Uzunova's Facbook page.

Derek

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #252 on: August 14, 2014, 10:15:20 AM »
Here are the scores for flights 1 and 2 of the finals.

   Looks like the coronation is back on track.

    Brett

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #253 on: August 14, 2014, 10:19:03 AM »
Looks like Matt and I saw it at the same time.

Derek

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #254 on: August 14, 2014, 10:25:55 AM »
Just so I don't get accused of not giving credit this pic came from Taniq Uzunova's Facbook page.
Derek

Its only one guy who's whining  anyway. LL~ I dont think they can file a DMCA on you for posting a link to a page you didn't even make.
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #255 on: August 14, 2014, 10:30:43 AM »
   Looks like the coronation is back on track.

    Brett

By the look's of those scores I would say Igor is on time. Unless near disaster happens.
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #256 on: August 14, 2014, 10:39:02 AM »
Its only one guy who's whining  anyway. LL~ I dont think they can file a DMCA on you for posting a link to a page you didn't even make.

It seems pretty silly if you ask me. If anyone deserves credit it would be the person who took and posted all the pictures.

Derek

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #257 on: August 14, 2014, 11:42:28 AM »
And 3rd round starts 09:00 local time on Friday...

Prizegiving and Closing Ceremony 16:00 - 19:30 local time. I think that means morning in USA.
Looks like they are posting results pretty promptly on the website: http://cl-wch2014.pl/results/

The Juniors are looking pretty consistent, so far, in the finals.
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #258 on: August 14, 2014, 11:50:38 AM »
It seems pretty silly if you ask me. If anyone deserves credit it would be the person who took and posted all the pictures.

Derek

..and he is Vladimir Salomatin, Russia. Spasibo mate!

L

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #259 on: August 14, 2014, 02:04:49 PM »
   I was somehow volunteered to do an engineering evaluation of the safety of quadcopter props for PAMPA.

You think you know how?  Are you going to spin up everybody's prop to see if it passes some criterion or just ban props made by somebody we don't know like we do airplanes by our "BOM" rule.  PAMPA should stick to being a newsletter.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #260 on: August 14, 2014, 02:10:50 PM »
   Looks like the coronation is back on track.

Sounds like the chronic losers who complain about the guys who win the US Nats.  I was there today watching.  I don't think anybody present disputes who the best flier is.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #261 on: August 14, 2014, 02:32:49 PM »
Weather improved for the second round and was pretty nice when Orestes flew the last flight of the round.  Tomorrow's forecast is for 3m/second winds, so the first round will be the throwaway round for anybody in contention.  Disregard the Total column and rankings.  Orestes was fifth in the second round and can move up with the last round tomorrow. He flew a couple dozen flights tonight and is flying really well.
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Offline jose modesto

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #262 on: August 14, 2014, 04:55:59 PM »
Howard.was anyone in stunt drug tested at the wolds?
Can't wait for your photos
Thanks for a great effort.
Your reporting while competing was special and greatly appreciated.
Jose Modesto

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #263 on: August 14, 2014, 05:36:49 PM »
Sounds like the chronic losers who complain about the guys who win the US Nats.  I was there today watching.  I don't think anybody present disputes who the best flier is.

  It does? How so?  He was way out ahead in qualifying, too.

   Brett

p.s. I have also been in the position of what seemed to be a pretty comfortable lead on Orestes - and then he caught me in the last flight of the day by 1.25 points! Never count him out!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 08:12:04 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #264 on: August 14, 2014, 06:57:08 PM »
   I was somehow volunteered to do an engineering evaluation of the safety of quadcopter props for PAMPA. This may obviate the need.

   Brett

It would only make sense.  The quadcopter is designed to hover and fly in forward and backward flight.  They are not designed for the load a full sized stunt plane will put on them.   
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #265 on: August 14, 2014, 07:56:18 PM »
It would only make sense.  The quadcopter is designed to hover and fly in forward and backward flight.  They are not designed for the load a full sized stunt plane will put on them.   

   Certainly not intended to survive a prop hit into the ground, apparently. The problem with doing any sort of analytical evaluation is you don't really know what the parameters are.

    Brett

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #266 on: August 14, 2014, 08:13:55 PM »
I have tried those props and I have some still but they are not as efficient as a APC the .02 CF vial on them.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #267 on: August 14, 2014, 11:35:38 PM »
   Certainly not intended to survive a prop hit into the ground, apparently. The problem with doing any sort of analytical evaluation is you don't really know what the parameters are.

That prop was being used as a plow.  An IC engine would have stopped.  Another reason to ban electrics.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #268 on: August 14, 2014, 11:38:21 PM »
I have also been in the position of what seemed to be a pretty comfortable lead on Orestes - and then he caught me in the last flight of the day by 1.25 points! Never count him out!

That was the point of our practice last evening.  Many joules were discharged.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #269 on: August 15, 2014, 12:45:27 AM »
It would only make sense.  The quadcopter is designed to hover and fly in forward and backward flight.  They are not designed for the load a full sized stunt plane will put on them.   

Let's see some analysis.  Include the flips that those folks do.
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #270 on: August 15, 2014, 06:01:53 AM »
Let's see some analysis.  Include the flips that those folks do.

How about just suggesting that people don't use them in stunt based on at least two known failures?

However, I would lean towards your "ban electric" proposal more.

Derek

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #271 on: August 15, 2014, 06:54:14 AM »
How about just suggesting that people don't use them in stunt based on at least two known failures?

What would you use as a criterion? That it's sold as a quadrotor prop?  So which props would be banned and why?  Let's see some science.  A 13" wooden prop would have done the same thing, as would most other props.  It was digging up turf, some of which got slung in my face.   Orestes has used these props in hundreds of flights. I've used them, too.
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #272 on: August 15, 2014, 06:55:23 AM »
Unofficial top five!

1 Igor Burger

2 Richie Kornmeier

3  Jun Yang

4 Andre Yatsenko

5 Orestes Hernandez

Great job Guys!!!!

Derek

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #273 on: August 15, 2014, 06:58:07 AM »
What would you use as a criterion? That it's sold as a quadrotor prop?  A 13" wooden prop would have done the same thing, as would most other props.  It was digging up turf, some of which got slung in my face.   Orestes has used these props in hundreds of flights. I've used them, too.  Two failures?  Holy cow, call out OSHA and the NTSA.    

Did you see the one Matt Newman had at the Nats?  No prop strike, just standard use. He took it of and it was starting to fail where the blade meets the hub. I took one look at and knew that I would have never bolted it on one of my planes to begin with. I am just saying, use a little common sense.

 Hey if you want a blade sticking in your eye, that is your decision.

I do not use that stuff so I have no idea what is available or how many different manufacturers there are. 

Derek

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #274 on: August 15, 2014, 07:07:54 AM »
Unofficial top five!

1 Igor Burger

2 Richie Kornmeier

3  Jun Yang

4 Andre Yatsenko

5 Orestes Hernandez

Great job Guys!!!!

Derek

Score sheets http://cl-wch2014.pl/docs/F2B_after_3rd_round_fly_off.pdf

Oops I forgot to give credit to the poster Al Gore. (How dumb is that?) Sheets courtesy of the FAI
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #275 on: August 15, 2014, 07:12:20 AM »
There was a variety of weather.  It started calm, but with some bizarre thermal activity or something that blew in unexpected directions causing loops to drift on the unaware. Then a nice light breeze came up, which was when Orestes flew.  The wind picked up after that about the time that Andrei Yatsenko and Alexandre Gauthiere flew.  Alex Schrek also got some wind, which might have kept him out of his usual number two position.  Then it rained for a spell and they took a break with one flight to go.  The last guy, Muramatu-san, flew in pretty nice conditions.  I watched most of the final flights.  There were very few flaws.  It was really good stunt.  The days of Ping Pong, when you couldn't tell the squares from the rounds, are over.  
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #276 on: August 15, 2014, 07:20:24 AM »
Thanks, Sparky.  I figured you guys would know before I could get back to the hotel to post the outcome. I didn't take detailed notes, but that's about the order I expected. 

Orestes mentioned to Yuri Yatsenko that he had flown 200 flights in the last month.  "Not enough," said Yuri.  "Igor has flown 2000."
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #277 on: August 15, 2014, 07:27:33 AM »
Thanks, Sparky.  I figured you guys would know before I could get back to the hotel to post the outcome. I didn't take detailed notes, but that's about the order I expected. 

Orestes mentioned to Yuri Yatsenko that he had flown 200 flights in the last month.  "Not enough," said Yuri.  "Igor has flown 2000."

Your welcome Howard. Despite what SY thinks I am on top of things thanks to Al Gore's internet.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #278 on: August 15, 2014, 07:33:38 AM »
I see Sergiy Byelko placed 15th.  I beat him once at a California contest, so I figured that I'm better than he. After watching him closely today, I have concluded that I'm not.  I have a lot of work to do to make the finals in this contest.
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Offline Steve Thomas

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #279 on: August 15, 2014, 07:45:50 AM »
Between 2nd and 6th: 14 points.  Between 1st and 2nd: 87 points.  :o

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #280 on: August 15, 2014, 07:45:58 AM »

Orestes mentioned to Yuri Yatsenko that he had flown 200 flights in the last month.  "Not enough," said Yuri.  "Igor has flown 2000."

200 flights in a month? that is more than I fly in 4 years. I am not sure if I have flown 2000 flights in my entire life.

Derek

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #281 on: August 15, 2014, 08:15:16 AM »
Congrats to Orestes for a fine job!  Now for all three guys to start the deceleration from the hectic schedule.  Thanks to all three members for their devotion to both the U.S. and to our sport.  Ya done good!
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #282 on: August 15, 2014, 08:19:24 AM »
Congrats to Orestes for a fine job!  Now for all three guys to start the deceleration from the hectic schedule.  Thanks to all three members for their devotion to both the U.S. and to our sport.  Ya done good!

I'm pretty sure Orestes still has a chance for gold, silver or bronze. Or is it over?
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #283 on: August 15, 2014, 08:29:03 AM »
What would you use as a criterion? That it's sold as a quadrotor prop?  So which props would be banned and why?  Let's see some science.  A 13" wooden prop would have done the same thing, as would most other props.  It was digging up turf, some of which got slung in my face.   Orestes has used these props in hundreds of flights. I've used them, too.
  how about a carbon copy of the Quadrotor props
rad racer

Online Bob Hunt

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #284 on: August 15, 2014, 08:33:02 AM »
Did you see the one Matt Newman had at the Nats?  No prop strike, just standard use. He took it of and it was starting to fail where the blade meets the hub. I took one look at and knew that I would have never bolted it on one of my planes to begin with. I am just saying, use a little common sense.

 Hey if you want a blade sticking in your eye, that is your decision.

I do not use that stuff so I have no idea what is available or how many different manufacturers there are.  

Derek

Actually, Derek, Matt told me that he did have a prop strike that broke that prop, but didn't realize it until he flew the next flight. The cracked prop blade apparently bent back dramatically, but did not come off!

I will not use these props, although I flew Matt's plane after the Nays with one of them (With Matt's admonishment to not do a long takeoff roll...) and found it yielded tremendous line tension; more than I felt necessary. I would support some kind of fact finding on these props as to the safe use in our event. Banning them outright at this point would be a bit rash I think. I've seen models ruined by wooden props that broke after a ground strike, too. And, these were on glow models.

If I see anyone using the quadcopter props in stunt I'll certainly relate Matt's and Kenny's experiences to them...

Later - Bob

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #285 on: August 15, 2014, 09:17:29 AM »
That prop was being used as a plow.  An IC engine would have stopped.  Another reason to ban electrics.

    A good reason to have a 2.4 ghz RC cutoff, maybe. Although, at 10000 rpm, you had better be quick on the trigger.

    Brett

p.s. or an accelerometer and a bandpass filter - rectify the resulting signal, if the voltage exceeds a threshold, shut it off. Tim Wescott, you are up!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 09:37:01 AM by Brett Buck »

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #286 on: August 15, 2014, 09:34:57 AM »
Actually, Derek, Matt told me that he did have a prop strike that broke that prop, but didn't realize it until he flew the next flight. The cracked prop blade apparently bent back dramatically, but did not come off!

I will not use these props, although I flew Matt's plane after the Nays with one of them (With Matt's admonishment to not do a long takeoff roll...) and found it yielded tremendous line tension; more than I felt necessary. I would support some kind of fact finding on these props as to the safe use in our event. Banning them outright at this point would be a bit rash I think.

   Based on the few I have seen, they are pretty light and didn't look like they would spear anyone more than a few feet away. If that turns out to be true, then there's no reason to ban them. If it just destroys the airplane, then it's up to the pilot to determine risk/reward, I figure. Kenny may just had the misfortune to find out why they call it the "bleeding edge".

     I have seen a bunch of APC electric prop strikes and no completely separations, so that seems OK to first approximation.

     I don't know how you determine which are "quadcopter props" and which are "safe". Where do you draw the line on how tough the hubs are, and how would you test it?  If someone starts making custom electric props, how you know which ones are OK and which ones are not, without extensive testing? If someone is making them in their garage, are they all the same, or does it depend on how hit it is the day he made it?

   I deal with failure analysis on a regular basis, in aerospace. Usually, having exceptionally tight process controls and very careful tracking, you can trace failures to specific issues. That's why you end up with $900 toilet seats. But you still have random failures that you never really explain. None of that exists in this case, who knows what happens in the factory, and who knows what happens in someone's basement? Maybe the line voltage was 122 volts instead of 115 volts that day, and it made the "incandescent light bulb autoclave" 15 degrees hotter than normal? Stuff like that happens all the time, even in professional aerospace shops.

     Howard is probably right, just plain maneuvering doesn't seem sufficient. Hitting it on the ground, or running it through the grass a few times, is clearly another story.

    Brett

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #287 on: August 15, 2014, 09:56:17 AM »
Congratualtions Guys!!!!!

You all did really well in a very tough field!!

Thanks for all of your hard work!!
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #288 on: August 15, 2014, 10:29:01 AM »
Congratualtions Guys!!!!!

You all did really well in a very tough field!!

Thanks for all of your hard work!!

Is it over or is there a top 5 fly off?
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #289 on: August 15, 2014, 10:31:57 AM »
   A good reason to have a 2.4 ghz RC cutoff, maybe. Although, at 10000 rpm, you had better be quick on the trigger.

    Brett

p.s. or an accelerometer and a bandpass filter - rectify the resulting signal, if the voltage exceeds a threshold, shut it off. Tim Wescott, you are up!

Hmm.  Could maybe be done.  You may need to have a remotely-mounted accelerometer in the nose, rather than using my existing setup.  "Just don't do that in the first place" does come to mind as a solution, however.

How many revolutions with a broken prop does it take to break the nose off of a typical stunt plane?

That prop was being used as a plow.  An IC engine would have stopped.  Another reason to ban electrics.

In theory this ought to be an easier problem to solve than trying to detect a broken blade fast enough to prevent disaster.  You might even be able to do it from the outside of the speed control -- but it'd be a lot easier to implement such an "unusual load detector" inside an ESC of one's own design than it would be to try to do it from the outside, particularly if you had to accommodate a range of ESCs.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #290 on: August 15, 2014, 10:37:55 AM »
In theory this ought to be an easier problem to solve than trying to detect a broken blade fast enough to prevent disaster.  You might even be able to do it from the outside of the speed control -- but it'd be a lot easier to implement such an "unusual load detector" inside an ESC of one's own design than it would be to try to do it from the outside, particularly if you had to accommodate a range of ESCs.

Y'know, if there's 2000 people out there willing to put down deposits on the World's Coolest Control Line ESC, I could start working on the design by Monday, and maybe even be in production in time for the Nationals next year.  At those production levels I think I'd have to charge about $250 a pop, though.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #291 on: August 15, 2014, 10:44:06 AM »
Actually, Derek, Matt told me that he did have a prop strike that broke that prop, but didn't realize it until he flew the next flight. The cracked prop blade apparently bent back dramatically, but did not come off!

Later - Bob

My bad, I did come in late on that conversation.

Derek

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #292 on: August 15, 2014, 10:44:34 AM »
Is it over or is there a top 5 fly off?

Its over.

Derek

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #293 on: August 15, 2014, 10:51:08 AM »
Orestes took fifth.  Igor took first.  I didn't recognize any other US or Stunthanger citizens in the list:

http://cl-wch2014.pl/docs/F2B_after_3rd_round_fly_off.pdf
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #294 on: August 15, 2014, 11:11:50 AM »
Between 2nd and 6th: 14 points.  Between 1st and 2nd: 87 points.  :o

Good observation !!  There's sure no doubt about who's the best. 
Paul Smith

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #295 on: August 15, 2014, 11:16:27 AM »
Good observation !!  There's sure no doubt about who's the best. 

  Hence my earlier comment that Howard ripped me for. Aside from the cowl falling off, you don't just suddenly forget how to do it in the middle of a contest.

  The scores are always, repeat, *always* telling you something you need to know.

   Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #296 on: August 15, 2014, 11:47:00 AM »
Hmm.  Could maybe be done.  You may need to have a remotely-mounted accelerometer in the nose, rather than using my existing setup.  "Just don't do that in the first place" does come to mind as a solution, however.

    You probably want it on the stator of the motor, or on the motor mount.

  I have a prototype design for this, using a MEMs accelerometer and some 12AX7s. If you use Telefunkens, you don't have to have the accelerometer.



Quote
How many revolutions with a broken prop does it take to break the nose off of a typical stunt plane?

In theory this ought to be an easier problem to solve than trying to detect a broken blade fast enough to prevent disaster.  You might even be able to do it from the outside of the speed control -- but it'd be a lot easier to implement such an "unusual load detector" inside an ESC of one's own design than it would be to try to do it from the outside, particularly if you had to accommodate a range of ESCs.

  You don't want to shut it off based on a single spike no matter how big it is.

    Brett

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #297 on: August 15, 2014, 11:55:58 AM »
Congratulations Igor.  It's so nice to see someone win (again) who has applied himself to the problem by analyzing the issue, designing a plane around his analysis, and then practicing his craft (a lot). The scores indicate it wasn't close.  I could see that in Bulgaria as well.

So nice to see you win for the right reasons.  Nothing but respect here!


Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #298 on: August 15, 2014, 11:56:27 AM »
    You probably want it on the stator of the motor, or on the motor mount.

  I have a prototype design for this, using a MEMs accelerometer and some 12AX7s. If you use Telefunkens, you don't have to have the accelerometer.

If you want build a 1/2-A version I've got some CK-series ultra-miniatures in my junk box, gathering dust.

  You don't want to shut it off based on a single spike no matter how big it is.

The whole issue of establishing a means of detecting a real event quick enough to do some good, while at the same time not having it false-alarm and screwing you out of a perfectly good official flight, is not at all trivial.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Team USA and the World Champs
« Reply #299 on: August 15, 2014, 12:06:34 PM »
In trying to add up the team scores, it appears that China has once again won the team title. SVK  was second. I had an issue with third. It appears there were 4 fliers from RUS, and also a junior flier. What's up with that?


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