Author Topic: tank fab... (Read 5947 times)

Bootlegger · « **on:** September 17, 2012, 08:37:31 AM »

Some time back I ordered some tank stock, wont mention vendor, that would rust thru while sheets were hanging on the wall.
I would like to find some coffee can stock that hasn't been rolled to make some tanks from.
A few years ago I had gotten some Folgers cans, but alas, I have used all of it up.

Any body got any suggestions?? Thanks, Gil

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #1 on:** September 17, 2012, 08:41:50 AM »

What you want is tin plated steel, called tin plate. Try Googling it -- I dimly recall doing so and seeing that it's out there, but the only "easy" sources I found were some specialty company that wanted to sell a bunch, and K&S.

Pineapple cans & pineapple juice cans are tin plate, but you have to flatten it. Most other cans are plastic-coated on the inside.

Chuck Feldman · « **Reply #2 on:** September 17, 2012, 08:54:30 AM »

Gil,

I like to use 1 gallon fuel cans. Or I go to a body shop supplier and buy empty 1 gallon cans. Just cut off the top and bottom and then cut out the vertical seam and your go to go. I make a pattern from wood that is just slightly undersize and then form the material around the pattern. I also form the ends on this block. It is quite easy to do once you master it. Solder skills should be good before you try this. Good luck and have fun.

Chuck

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #3 on:** September 17, 2012, 10:52:53 AM »

I use cleaned, cut up quart thinner/retarder cans. It's a bit lighter gauge than gallon cans usually and solders well.

Dave

Brett Buck · « **Reply #4 on:** September 17, 2012, 11:05:32 AM »

Quote from: Bootlegger on September 17, 2012, 08:37:31 AM

Some time back I ordered some tank stock, wont mention vendor, that would rust thru while sheets were hanging on the wall.
I would like to find some coffee can stock that hasn't been rolled to make some tanks from.
A few years ago I had gotten some Folgers cans, but alas, I have used all of it up.

Any body got any suggestions?? Thanks, Gil

I use the K&S easy-solder tin. It's not wide enough to make the tank in one piece but I actually prefer that. There are two different types, apparently a batch-to-batch difference from their vendor. Either works but the one it much softer than the other. I prefer the harder kind. You can identify them by sight - the soft kind is very shiny, the hard kind is still pretty shiny but has some very light scratches going along the long axis.

Brett

pipemakermike · « **Reply #5 on:** September 18, 2012, 05:14:13 AM »

In the UK we have a company called RadioSpares AKA RS I purchased some 12th tinplate from them at a very good price and it makes beautiful tanks. I model the tank and produce a template sheet, cutout the shapes, stick them to the tinplate, cut accurately and bend along the lines. This gives me a perfect tank each time.
I used to use biscuit tins, thinners cans and any other source of free tinplate but the joy of using virgin tinplate and the quality of the end result is well worth the small extra cost of buying proper tinplate.
BTW
if you are wondering what a Razorblade64 is here is a picture of one:-

George · « **Reply #6 on:** September 18, 2012, 12:18:06 PM »

Quote from: Bootlegger on September 17, 2012, 08:37:31 AM

Some time back I ordered some tank stock, wont mention vendor, that would rust thru while sheets were hanging on the wall...

Thanks, Gil

Gil,

Perhaps that stock was clean and ready to solder. Maybe a little coating of oil from an oily rag or paper towel would help if you are going to store it.

George

don Burke · « **Reply #7 on:** September 18, 2012, 12:23:35 PM »

Quote from: Bootlegger on September 17, 2012, 08:37:31 AM

Some time back I ordered some tank stock, wont mention vendor, that would rust thru while sheets were hanging on the wall.
I would like to find some coffee can stock that hasn't been rolled to make some tanks from.
A few years ago I had gotten some Folgers cans, but alas, I have used all of it up.

Any body got any suggestions?? Thanks, Gil

If you live in So Cal, Industrial Metal Supply has tin sheet. They have showrooms in Irvine, Riverside, and Sun Valley, cut sheets in the racks. They also ship, but cost could be prohibitive.

Bill Little · « **Reply #8 on:** September 18, 2012, 01:30:37 PM »

A few years ago we discussed here getting tin stock for making tanks. It was brought out that Brodak will sell sheets in much larger dimensions than the K&S. One of the people asking for a source was looking for .005 tin stock.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #9 on:** September 18, 2012, 01:47:03 PM »

I have been saving gallon olive oil cans as a source of tinplate for several projects that never seem to happen. Some other food containers are real tinplate. Pineapple and the little tomato paste cans come to mind.

Phil

Juan Valentin · « **Reply #10 on:** September 19, 2012, 11:14:35 PM »

to bend the ends
Hello Gil
I have been using gallon cans from the auto paint store.I made a hand brake and a small tool to bend the ends of the tank
and they come out real good.

ray copeland · « **Reply #11 on:** September 20, 2012, 07:05:48 AM »

Juan, great pics! Do you drill or punch the fuel line holes?

Juan Valentin · « **Reply #12 on:** September 20, 2012, 08:44:16 AM »

Hello Ray
I drill a .062 hole in the tin an I enlarge it to .125 with a small punch,I make sure the tubing slides thru the hole with a little bit of friction so it will stay in place while i solder.Some Pics of a tank I made for my F-94 Starfire built from one of Larry Richards fine kits.
Juan

Alan Resinger · « **Reply #13 on:** September 20, 2012, 10:42:04 AM »

Brett was right about using K & S tinplate which is .010 in thickness. While most hobby shops that carry K & S have only the 4" wide sheets K & S also sells 6" wide stock. I was able to get it from a vendor in Arizona. The name is Maximum Velocity. www.maximum-velocity.com Works great for larger tanks.
Alan Resinger

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #14 on:** September 20, 2012, 10:49:39 AM »

Juan:

Thanks for posting those pictures. I'm glad I revisited this thread. Your method of bending round end plates looks like a winner to me: I've been making my tanks with all straight bends up until now, but I think I'll be changing my tune.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #15 on:** September 20, 2012, 11:29:09 AM »

Quote from: Juan Valentin on September 20, 2012, 08:44:16 AM

I drill a .062 hole in the tin an I enlarge it to .125 with a small punch,I make sure the tubing slides thru the hole with a little bit of friction so it will stay in place while i solder.

This is definitely a good idea. I actually use a sharpened 6p nail to poke the holes. It leaves an impression in the metal that acts as a well for the solder. Only a tiny bit of solder will hold it far better than it needs to be.

Brett

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #16 on:** September 20, 2012, 11:46:59 AM »

Top notch work Juan. Thanks for sharing, and posting good pictures of those simple yet effective tools.

Phil

Bill Little · « **Reply #17 on:** September 20, 2012, 11:57:32 AM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on September 20, 2012, 11:29:09 AM

This is definitely a good idea. I actually use a sharpened 6p nail to poke the holes. It leaves an impression in the metal that acts as a well for the solder. Only a tiny bit of solder will hold it far better than it needs to be.

Brett

HI Brett,

Never thought of the nail, thanks! I use an ancient Scratch Awl to make the holes. Works in much the same way as it leaves a slight depression and also forces a small amount of the tin plate "inside" the tank which secures the tube even more.

Bill

Bootlegger · « **Reply #18 on:** September 20, 2012, 12:52:25 PM »

Alan R, I tried maximum v and they told me that they don't carry it now.
Can you suggest someone else??
Thanks a lot, Gil

Allan Perret · « **Reply #19 on:** September 20, 2012, 03:45:28 PM »

K&S 6x12 tin sheet is available from Tower.

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXUTU8&P=ML

Brett Buck · « **Reply #20 on:** September 20, 2012, 04:55:11 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on September 20, 2012, 11:57:32 AM

Never thought of the nail, thanks! I use an ancient Scratch Awl to make the holes. Works in much the same way as it leaves a slight depression and also forces a small amount of the tin plate "inside" the tank which secures the tube even more.

If I had an ancient scratch awl of the right diameter, I would use that! It's the same idea aside from yours being more sophisticated.

There's pretty much nothing I ever do that requires anything more exotic than a hand drill.

Brett

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #21 on:** September 20, 2012, 05:17:11 PM »

In the image showing the inside of the fuel tank
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=28571.0;attach=111640
is there a reason the fill tube is bent and slants to the feed tube? Some of the old tanks I recall coming apart in crashes the fill and vent were just straight pieces up/down looking essentially identical. However those tanks also did not have the bend towards the slipstream either.

In my soldering experience I have found that lacking a dimple that fits the tubing makes life difficult. I have made a few pop-pop boat motors in the past, where the tube does not enter the chamber.

Phil

Walter Hicks · « **Reply #22 on:** September 20, 2012, 05:33:43 PM »

I use .004 Stainless Steel for tanks : From Mcmaster Carr. I checked with my expert who builds and repairs dairies for a living and it will work fine for tanks . Difficult so far to find Tin Plate in .005 . I know that some has located this in the past. I have looked on line quite a bit.Custom tank for Al Rabe Sea Fury 8oz + 1.2 oz. in weight per digital scale.Difficult to solder. Mark Wasnic who builds the dairies and works with Stainless Steel all the time said to use very hot solder iron.

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #23 on:** September 21, 2012, 08:04:36 AM »

http://www.fraserker.com/heli/uniflow/how_uniflow_works.htm

I found an explanation for the location of the vent, pickup, and overflow tubes. Basically having the vent and the pickup submerged under a similar column of fuel causes the internal tank pressures to remain more constant, so the engine does not "go lean" near the end of the tank, providing a more consistent flight.

The overflow needs plugged in this system, the vent needs a source of positive pressure, which depending on the application (rules) is slipstream or exhaust pressure.

Phil

john e. holliday · « **Reply #24 on:** September 21, 2012, 08:46:10 AM »

Wrongo from what I experience and have seen. A uni-flo tank will run consistently if needle is set right. Then the tank leans out the last couple of laps depending on how far from the pick up I put the uni-flo tube.

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #25 on:** September 21, 2012, 09:10:05 AM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on September 21, 2012, 08:46:10 AM

Wrongo from what I experience and have seen. A uni-flo tank will run consistently if needle is set right. Then the tank leans out the last couple of laps depending on how far from the pick up I put the uni-flo tube.

So with any tank the engine goes lean near the end of the tank.

Does a uni-flo arrangement provide more consistent performance than a standard vented tank for the majority of a flight, typically?

Phil

Scott Richlen · « **Reply #26 on:** September 21, 2012, 08:34:21 PM »

Yes, uniflow generally gives greater consistancy.

As said previously, the engine speeds up after the uniflow vent is uncovered.

Scott

Don Hutchinson AMA5402 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 21, 2012, 09:15:34 PM »

Why should the engine go lean after the uniflow vent gets uncovered? The Delta P at that time is zero or so close to it that it shouldn't be noticeable.
Don

john e. holliday · « **Reply #28 on:** September 22, 2012, 08:53:25 AM »

Maybe it is the way I set up my tanks. All I know is the engine does lean out a couple of laps before quiting. The one thing I never figured out is that my Uni-flo vent on the side of the Oriental I used to have had a screw holding it in place. When the screw got lose or would fall out the tube would face rearward and the engine would go super rich. I would have thought it would go lean. Even left it loose on purpose for a couple of flights which would run lean on lthe ground and rich in the air.

Another story is my DoodleBug has a uni-flo tank setup. During second round of stunt in Topeka the overflow tube came loose and was dangling in the air. The OS ran like the needle had opened up a little and let it run richer.

Bootlegger · « **Reply #29 on:** September 22, 2012, 09:49:59 AM »

Guy's I am lookin for material to build tank's, please don't hijack my thread.
Thaniks

john e. holliday · « **Reply #30 on:** September 22, 2012, 10:30:31 AM »

Have you found the material yet?? I get mine at the local Ace Hardware.

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #31 on:** September 22, 2012, 10:37:53 AM »

Good old K&S tin plate seems to work the best. Do not! Never! use brass shim stock for a tank. Although it solders well and forms nicely, brass fatigues easily and your brass tank will develop cracks along bends, unless all bend radii are very generous.

I suspect that annealing the brass first might solve the problem, but how do you anneal pretty big pieces without an oven that can get up to about 800 F.?

Floyd

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #32 on:** September 22, 2012, 11:34:15 AM »

Quote from: FLOYD CARTER on September 22, 2012, 10:37:53 AM

Good old K&S tin plate seems to work the best. Do not! Never! use brass shim stock for a tank. Although it solders well and forms nicely, brass fatigues easily and your brass tank will develop cracks along bends, unless all bend radii are very generous.

I suspect that annealing the brass first might solve the problem, but how do you anneal pretty big pieces without an oven that can get up to about 800 F.?

Brass work hardens, so you'd probably need to anneal it after bending, not before you start.

An annealing trick for brass sheet, that I learned at my dad's knee (well, looking over his shoulder while he was instructing a new body man) is to take an oxy-acetylene torch with a pure acetylene flame and soot up the piece. Then adjust to a neutral flame and heat the metal up just enough to burn the soot off. The metal will cool fast enough to anneal (brass and aluminum heat treat the opposite of steel -- heat with a fast quench softens them).

A better annealing trick is probably to use tin plate.

Walter:

Do you use special solder or flux for your stainless steel? Do you know what alloy you're using?

Don Hutchinson AMA5402 · « **Reply #33 on:** September 22, 2012, 05:14:08 PM »

Just go with the K&S tin sheet. It is thinner than gallon can stock, forms easily and solders well. You can find it at some Ace hardware stores.
just for needless info, the S is Wally Simmers of Gollywock fame. I forgot who the K is but you would recognize the name.
Don
Joe Konofese (sp) of Buzzard Bombshell and Comet model co. fame?

Phil Krankowski · « **Reply #34 on:** September 22, 2012, 07:01:48 PM »

Quote from: FLOYD CARTER on September 22, 2012, 10:37:53 AM

Good old K&S tin plate seems to work the best. Do not! Never! use brass shim stock for a tank. Although it solders well and forms nicely, brass fatigues easily and your brass tank will develop cracks along bends, unless all bend radii are very generous.

I suspect that annealing the brass first might solve the problem, but how do you anneal pretty big pieces without an oven that can get up to about 800 F.?

Floyd

Rate of cooling doesn't matter on common yellow brass (copper+zinc+lead), copper, and most other "normal" metals (steel is particularly abnormal to civilization's delight) You can spot anneal with a propane torch, heat to dullest red in a shadow box and move to the next area.

That said, if cracking is a problem, then beyond an experimental tank using on hand materials I will pass on using this stock. I am sure vibration will create its own headaches regarding fatigue limits and such.

Phil

Author Topic: tank fab... (Read 5947 times)

Walter Hicks