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Author Topic: Common core  (Read 15338 times)

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Common core
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2016, 09:46:33 PM »
Thanks for your observations, Chuck.

My experience with Common Core was limited to a couple months in an after-school program for 3rd and 4th graders (Boy did I get an education, after spending my teaching career with mostly high school aged or older - if not always accomplished - kids). I did not have time to read all the intro material, but just jumped in during the year and analyzed the material, as presented at that stage. My employers were well-intentioned, but not well organized; so I cannot say that we handled everything the best. Anyway, the after-school kids seemed to not understand what was prep and "understanding" and what were the final skill goals. I have to lay that one at the feet of their regular teachers, who while conscientious and most often very skilled with kids, were not very well versed mathematically. Also, we were stretched all the way across the Common Core curriculum (English, social studies,...).

Common Core math activities did appear to attempt to cover what the operations (basic arithmetic operations with fractions, decimals) mean, but seemed not to give the average to slower-learning or challenged kids enough time actually doing the final work of calculating. At some point, they need to develop the skill to compute efficiently and accurately. So division via subtraction has to fall by the wayside at some point in favor of the traditional algorithm. I wasn't seeing that happen with the majority of the students I helped at this school. What I do not know is how these students compared to the kids not in the program. They just had a lot to do, with a bit less focus. That is my criticism. For top students it might(?) work pretty well. A kid can't progress to more fun and fulfilling higher math, without knowing the basics by heart - and sometimes rote.

As you, I'm sure, I had my own ideas of what were the best ways of teaching the material, and mine did not always correspond with theirs. I think your observation of, shall we say, "economic" considerations in the distribution of these programs may indeed cause compromise in quality. I believe that when I was in school, our books were written by people who pretty well knew what worked and were not subjected to so many committee-like compromises. - SK

Offline phil c

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Re: Common core
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2016, 05:15:50 PM »
"Each binary bit corresponds to a power of 2 - the lowest bit, if set, equals 2^0 (2 to the zeroth power, or 1)"  Thanks for fixing your earlier post, Brett
phil Cartier

Offline phil c

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Re: Common core
« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2016, 05:50:47 PM »
+10 Chuck-

....STEM is based on math. Students need to know not only "Plus, minus, times and gazintas" but they need to understand the associative and distributive law. They need to know logarithms. They as you so eloquently expressed, need to do proofs, and I'll add - derivations.

Teaching math is not a "learning how to think course", it's a years-long process in which the student acquires greater and greater skills, each course building upon the next.  Sure, not everyone is going to have to tackle the Navier-Stokes equations to graduate, but the ones that do don't learn how to df it in one semester. They are prepared by years  (usually about 16) of successive mathematics courses.  At that point a student has acquired real skills that are useful for real problem solving.
And just as important, they have learned a method of applying them.

From my admittedly limited knowledge of CC, I don't see any emphasis on developing math skills for real problems. Even at an early age, you can ask a kid "Farmer Jones has 156 eggs, and his egg cartons hold 12 eggs. How many egg cartons does he need for his eggs?" or " The carpenter has 8 boards..."

This puts mathematics into a real-life perspective and teaches kids how to solve real-world problems. When you teach them that way the "light goes off". To me CC seems to be the "everybody gets a trophy" dumbing down of the core of what makes engineers, scientist, machinists,......

Common Core is what you get when you having 'educators' as opposed to teachers working with lobbyists to put together a curriculum.  It looks good on paper but the way it's done leaves the teachers precious little room to adapt it to the kids they have to teach.


I was with my grandson over Christmas.  He's a bright kid(10) and we were discussing school.  He told me he was learning algebra-  6-x=2, what's x.  So I asked him to solve 112+x=143.  He laid it out in a number of columns and rows and figured out all the arithmetic somewhat as above, taking about 5 minutes.  Then I showed him:

 143
-112
---------
     1
    3
  0
    31

That triggered a subtraction contest where we asked each other simple subtraction problems and he quickly figured out how to do them in his head.  He also showed me how they do long division estimating the numerals in the answer and checking them separately with the long-winded subtraction, somewhat as above, until you found the answer.

Common Core seems to be what you get when you task 'educators' as opposed to teachers to develop a curriculum with lobbyists.  They use what they can remember from school, run it by teachers 5,10, 15 times until it all works, sort of, and then the administrators have to approve it, taking another 2-3 years of conferences.

Mathematics has been successfully taught using pretty much the same methods for centuries.  I wonder why the methods had to be redone when they worked?
phil Cartier

Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: Common core
« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2016, 06:22:00 PM »
...

Mathematics has been successfully taught using pretty much the same methods for centuries.  I wonder why the methods had to be redone when they worked?


this.

Phil

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Common core
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2016, 08:59:32 PM »
Mathematics has been successfully taught using pretty much the same methods for centuries.  I wonder why the methods had to be redone when they worked?


   That's easy - no one wants to hurt their little feelings by distinguishing between right and wrong answers.

     Brett

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Common core
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2016, 09:53:52 PM »
   That's easy - no one wants to hurt their little feelings by distinguishing between right and wrong answers.

     Brett
===========================================================

"Everyone's a winner".  (Gag!)

FORMER member, "Academy of Multi-rotors & ARFs".

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Common core
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2016, 10:11:17 PM »
===========================================================

"Everyone's a winner".  (Gag!)



  Little Jimmy (1955) - "2+2=5"
  Teacher/father - "Wrong, don't be stupid, you moron (backhand slap)!"

   Little Jimmy (2016) - "2+2=5"
   Teacher/Father  - "Oh, look how creative that was!  Class, say YAY for Jimmy! (class "Yay!)

     Brett

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Common core
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2016, 10:28:23 PM »
C'mon, Mike. Obama isn't a socialist, and this has nothing to do with him or anything here, as you well know. So please just cut out the political crap. It's divisive. On topic...

SK

Hmmmm...I agree with not making a political discussion out of this....but I also believe if it Walks like a DUCK and Quacks like a DUCK,  It's a DUCK!

I believe common core is a Red Herring to garner total control over education and how it is administered throughout the US.  That would make it very easy to raise a generation of robots that only vote the way they are told!  Sorry but it's been done in many countries to date!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Mike Ferguson

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Re: Common core
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2016, 09:29:50 AM »
  Little Jimmy (1955) - "2+2=5"
  Teacher/father - "Wrong, don't be stupid, you moron (backhand slap)!"

   Little Jimmy (2016) - "2+2=5"
   Teacher/Father  - "Oh, look how creative that was!  Class, say YAY for Jimmy! (class "Yay!)

     Brett

Little Jimmy's Dad in 1955 sounds an awful lot like Ben Stern.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Common core
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2016, 10:49:44 AM »
Little Jimmy's Dad in 1955 sounds an awful lot like Ben Stern.

"I told you not to be stupid, you moron!"
Lol, i love that guy

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Common core
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2016, 11:22:12 AM »
I was a typical (in retrospect) oldest male child in a large Catholic family.  Mom and dad were college grads in the mid 50s when they had me, and obviously conspired to ensure I would go to college.

Dad would review my homework and while he did not add "you moron", he did frequently bip the back of my head  (like Gibbs does Tony)

One thing they endured ---and now I appreciate it----fully paid for Parochial school education, for all six of us

I managed to screw this all up in 1970~1972 while my Dad was in Viet Nam second time and we in Oakland Calif

I  found out about sex, drugs, and Rock n Roll.... grades suffered (badly) 0.0GPA in the first semester of the 11th grade

Dad returned to find a letter from the all boys college pep Jesuit school telling him to find OTHER education avenues for young Frederick

He was not pleased

I ended up in 1972 in the Oakland public school system and as I turned 17 I learned that I could decide to quit if I so desired and THEY could not tell my parents

Public school in California early 70s was a pure total chaotic mess with the children running the place and the adults making excuses and allowing it

I was a drop out for a full reporting cycle before my parents found out

As it happens the Draft actually saved me and caused a productive citizen to be created

Being Army brat I knew a LOT about the Army and that I did not want to learn my trade IN VIET NAM... so off the the induction center I went only to find that to deliberately enlist  (with options) required a HS diploma

Recruiter scheduled a Calif GED test at an adult center and I sat for the array of exams with a 99% Catholic education only through he 10th grade  ( I effectively pissed away a whole year and never attend school for over a year before the tests)

IN 1972 I passed the Calif GED in the 95th percentile (had no idea what this meant THEN).... you educators in the group will know there was a VERY LOW standard for me to gain that level

The English test with essay was too easy...my parents and all others I have ever met will tell you that to this day my grammar, spelling, punctuation, and writing is not adequate
The Math  (that was my problem subject)  was done in under 30 min..... 1.5 hours for the exam was the norm.... exceeding simple for my meager math skills
all other subjects I was usually an "A" student so no big deal

A lot of words to say the common core is not really the problem...

Loss of discipline in the class room has a lot to do with the situation today

The insane idea that Little Johnny is a full fledged citizen and must be treated as a full adult is not a rational way to think about CHILDREN and managing their behavior

Parting thoughts....to this day I am still a can't sit still human.... I would have been diagnosed as ADD and put on Ridelen(sp?) or other harsh psychotropic drugs

I raised 2 boys and 3 girls and learned a lot

Parochial schools always had several "recess" sessions throughout the day.......... They fully understood, after 100+ years of teaching children, that children (especially males) need to run off energy

Here in Texas "recess" is all but eliminated in the inner city schools....bad idea in my opinion

I am a BIG advocate of re-starting Shop and other Trades classed in our High Schools---not offered in 92% of Texas schools

Can't help my self because I have actually read his books.... OBAMA is a socialist by his own admission, and I strongly suspect he fundamentally is a Muslim







"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline aba183210

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Re: Common core
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2016, 03:59:16 PM »
With CC, the students are now required to not only solve the problem, but also show and share with the class why they got the answer and to show strategies. I do work there and I have seen this firsthand. Example of a warmup math problem:

If Nancy has 10 apples and Mark has 7 apples, how many do they have altogether?

This problem alone, with this new method, will take about 10 minutes to solve. The students must work it out in their math journals and then I must call on students to show me the different strategies they used to solve it (i.e. drawing, tally marks, etc), the answer itself, and to explain in sentences why they got the answer they have. Oh, and this problem will be already written on one of those big paper charts or displayed on the projector. I must then write what the students state in the big paper chart, complete with the strategies and drawings they used.

That is for the lower levels (i.e. 1st to 4th grade or so).

For K, when doing the calendar, we now use a number 10 frame. This is a rectangle divided into 10 squares. For each day, a new sticker is placed on the space until we get 10 and so on. This is how they get used to counting by 10.

If you have gone to K decades ago, you will note that K today is nothing like that anymore. Now it is heavily loaded with academics, state standards, goals to be met, running records, data and more data and more data and so on. And we also now have what is called TK (transitional kindergarten) which is a cross between pre-kinder and kinder. Even there, academics are heavily emphasized. Oh, and both are full day, not half day like they used to be.

Offline Tony Drago

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Re: Common core
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2016, 05:36:46 PM »
Talk about brain over load.

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Common core
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2016, 06:37:36 PM »
Talk about brain over load.

If Johnny has 6 pickles and Wendy has 2 crayons they could make a peanut butter sandwich. Only on Monday
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Offline Tony Drago

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Re: Common core
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2016, 06:54:43 PM »
Can't wait to see the Common Core flash cards.  LL~

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Common core
« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2016, 07:50:05 PM »
Can't wait to see the Common Core flash cards.  LL~

 ;D

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Common core
« Reply #66 on: March 28, 2016, 08:06:33 PM »
With CC, the students are now required to not only solve the problem, but also show and share with the class why they got the answer and to show strategies. I do work there and I have seen this firsthand. Example of a warmup math problem:

If Nancy has 10 apples and Mark has 7 apples, how many do they have altogether?

This problem alone, with this new method, will take about 10 minutes to solve. The students must work it out in their math journals and then I must call on students to show me the different strategies they used to solve it (i.e. drawing, tally marks, etc), the answer itself, and to explain in sentences why they got the answer they have. Oh, and this problem will be already written on one of those big paper charts or displayed on the projector. I must then write what the students state in the big paper chart, complete with the strategies and drawings they used.

That is for the lower levels (i.e. 1st to 4th grade or so).

For K, when doing the calendar, we now use a number 10 frame. This is a rectangle divided into 10 squares. For each day, a new sticker is placed on the space until we get 10 and so on. This is how they get used to counting by 10.

If you have gone to K decades ago, you will note that K today is nothing like that anymore. Now it is heavily loaded with academics, state standards, goals to be met, running records, data and more data and more data and so on. And we also now have what is called TK (transitional kindergarten) which is a cross between pre-kinder and kinder. Even there, academics are heavily emphasized. Oh, and both are full day, not half day like they used to be.

Thanks for this. It fills in some of what I was unable to glean from the after-school program. I also agree about breaks for the kids. As for one other person, I was going to agree fully, until I read the last remarks. They are still not relevant to this board, still divisive, and still needing defined/agreed upon terms.  That was not an invitation. There are many other places for such discussions.

Offline Scott Hartford

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Re: Common core
« Reply #67 on: March 28, 2016, 08:54:11 PM »
If you are a fan of Obama, divisive is in your wheelhouse. It's what he does. That's the problem we are having these days with all the PC BS, everyone thinks they can retreat to their "safe space" and there is some intrinsic right to never be offended. Has any of this behavior improved society to any degree? I think not...If I said Fox .35s suck, would anyone need counseling because their feelings were hurt? I hope not. We can disagree, vehemently at times, but does it really impact your sense of well being? Different strokes for different folks I suppose. All I know for sure is I hope I wasn't as clueless as a young adult as the ones I encounter these days. I may have been, but I never got a trophy for it....

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Common core
« Reply #68 on: March 28, 2016, 09:35:46 PM »
I must call on students to show me the different strategies they used to solve it (i.e. drawing, tally marks, etc), the answer itself, and to explain in sentences why they got the answer they have. Oh, and this problem will be already written on one of those big paper charts or displayed on the projector. I must then write what the students state in the big paper chart, complete with the strategies and drawings they used.

   I know I am going to regret this, but what the hell does "strategy" have to do with adding two numbers?

    Brett

Offline Steve Hines

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Re: Common core
« Reply #69 on: March 28, 2016, 10:37:42 PM »
Divisive Scott, have you been watching The Donald and Ted. You can now see what this party is all about. I think that education was so bad back in the day, most people did not learn how to remember what think were like. 39 years ago today I could buy beer. I was a senior, you think this was good for my GPA. All my friends thought it was cool. These were the good old days or so they say. I will not say any more about my days in school, Samantha can read thing here, but it was a education.

This may not be perfect, but it better than what it use be, and it could be better. Samantha is now in government and ask me what I think of Roe v Wade, I told her she and every other woman have the right to keep her legs together, her said I was a dork. We did have a talk. I want her to think about thinking, and not believe thing that is just said over and over. Lying Ted, I had nothing to do with it. We have no jobs because of Obama, not that the job creators sent the jobs out of the country. If you want your kids and grand kids to grow up as you did is fine with me, they will be working under Samantha. I remember the good old day, they were not that great. The simpler time, I still have my slide rule, was not simple.

steve

Offline Steve Hines

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Re: Common core
« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2016, 11:07:42 PM »
What I need to learn is how to turn off this spelling thing on this tablet. It will just make changes, than I send to much time trying to fix things.
Steve

Offline aba183210

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Re: Common core
« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2016, 10:59:18 AM »
   I know I am going to regret this, but what the hell does "strategy" have to do with adding two numbers?

    Brett

As we know, the education world is full of buzzwords and phrases. The word "strategy" here is IMHO a fancy way of how to solve a problem.

The first time I encountered CC was 2 years ago when I was covering a 3rd grade class. We were going over a simple multiplication problem and I simply gave the answer (i.e. 6 x 6 = 36) but the students immediately told me that this was the wrong way to solve it and then they gave me all those explanations using drawings and strategies and all that, so that a problem that takes about 10 seconds to solve took about 6 minutes because of "number talk" and sharing strategies and all that stuff. By "number talk" one means talking about a number and showing the several ways it can be shown-tally marks, tens blocks, drawings, equations, and so on.

Anyway, below are some examples of common core math in action. Enjoy.


Offline RC Storick

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Re: Common core
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2016, 11:18:22 AM »
Its no wonder why we are at the bottom of the list
AMA 12366

Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Common core
« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2016, 11:54:14 AM »
   I know I am going to regret this, but what the hell does "strategy" have to do with adding two numbers?

    Brett

Brett, You took the words right out of my mouth!

CC= Common Crap. IM(not so) HO

Jerry

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Common core
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2016, 04:20:08 PM »
It's easy to see the reason of all this.

Stupid, uneducated people are much easier to control politically!

Just wait!  Common Core is only the beginning...many things to come if the political landscape doesn't change drastically!

Anyone remember "Pods".  A very bad idea that will come again!  No, I'm not talking about "Bodysnatchers" either.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Steve Thompson

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Re: Common core
« Reply #75 on: March 29, 2016, 05:29:24 PM »
Argh!

I think of how kids hated math when I was in "old" school.  This new school math must really get them hatin' it.

-or-

This seems to be a practical way to turn simple adding and subtracting into a whole math class.  Let's see how many strategies we can come up with for a simple answer...   That way you never have to get to the hard stuff.

I wanna see a Common Core Calculus Strategy!

Offline Steve Hines

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Re: Common core
« Reply #76 on: March 29, 2016, 06:11:36 PM »
You are right Randy, don't send them to school just let lhem watch fox new. This is why college kid are going for Sanders, and the old red necks support Trump. I can see why you want to keep people stupid.

Steve

Offline Scott Hartford

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Re: Common core
« Reply #77 on: March 29, 2016, 07:53:24 PM »
You talking about those college kids who saw Trump's name written in chalk on the campus grounds and needed counseling from 2 different student groups because these "triggers" hurt their feelings? The college kids that need "safe spaces" to retreat to when things get too rough for their sensibilities? Those guys? Have you seen how clueless a lot of these college students are these days, especially about the guy they support? Yeah, let's listen to these "educated" folks that know so much, except reality...

Offline Steve Hines

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Re: Common core
« Reply #78 on: March 29, 2016, 08:21:10 PM »
Just watched a little bit of Ted Cruz on TV he wants to get rid of Common Core. He wants charter schools and even parochial schools to get our tax dollars. I would bet that the conservative Muslims can't wait to get their hands on some of our tax dollars to fund their schools. We could have hemp growing school. I just need to come up with some kind of school, so I can make a lot of money. He wants states to have right to set the agenda. Just have to find the right state. Will go back to what did not work before, and just add a twist. Just like my governor said, emergency managers are a good idea, just not this time. Watch what you wish for you just may get it.

Steve

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Common core
« Reply #79 on: March 29, 2016, 08:31:58 PM »
If you are a fan of Obama, divisive is in your wheelhouse. It's what he does. That's the problem we are having these days with all the PC BS, everyone thinks they can retreat to their "safe space" and there is some intrinsic right to never be offended. Has any of this behavior improved society to any degree? I think not...If I said Fox .35s suck, would anyone need counseling because their feelings were hurt? I hope not. We can disagree, vehemently at times, but does it really impact your sense of well being? Different strokes for different folks I suppose. All I know for sure is I hope I wasn't as clueless as a young adult as the ones I encounter these days. I may have been, but I never got a trophy for it....

One needn't be a "fan" to comment on silliness and probable needs to check definitions. As I hope you realize, no one here has claimed an "intrinsic right to never be offended." It seems that regardless of which political "side" we are on, we are constantly bombarded by beliefs we dislike. So that "right" would seem not to exist, and with good reason in any functional democracy ...or republic. I discuss politics every day - elsewhere. While I many years ago indicated which "side" I'm generally on, I doubt that I've ever stated or argued my national politics on a model plane forum, a place people go to share their love of and interests in a shared hobby. It does no good to demean others, even if it does make one feel better.

I commented on this thread simply because I am one of the best qualified to do so, and I wanted to contribute some information and substance for thought. That took some time, seriously digesting what I'd experienced and hoping that with others' we'd learn something together. I think some did, despite the interruptions. I've read others' responses. Now I'm ready to cut some more balsa for my new wing's ribs.

Offline Scott Hartford

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Re: Common core
« Reply #80 on: March 29, 2016, 08:48:02 PM »
Fair enough...

Offline Mel Gray

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Re: Common core
« Reply #81 on: March 29, 2016, 09:38:46 PM »
So, "how 'bout them Broncos ?"..................................
Mel Gray
Monument, CO  80132
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: Common core
« Reply #82 on: March 29, 2016, 11:34:49 PM »
You are right Randy, don't send them to school just let lhem watch fox new. This is why college kid are going for Sanders, and the old red necks support Trump. I can see why you want to keep people stupid.

Steve
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Offline Tony Drago

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Re: Common core
« Reply #83 on: March 29, 2016, 11:52:53 PM »
Like they say.
  A picture is worth a thousand words.

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Common core
« Reply #84 on: March 30, 2016, 08:48:02 AM »
Serge

I respect you and enjoy all that I learn here from your thought provoking posts and good explanations of things

I regret my parting shot and agree with your "interruptions" remark

I do not think the current administration has that much to do with this ongoing (public education) problem that started a long time ago... In fact I suspect they are a product of the larger problem...... lack of any critical thinking and rational fact based education
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Common core
« Reply #85 on: March 30, 2016, 10:49:56 AM »
Forget Common Core, teach Common Sense.  That seems to have been lost somewhere.

Mike

Offline Scott Hartford

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Re: Common core
« Reply #86 on: March 30, 2016, 12:48:11 PM »
Seriously, I think it went south with Dr. Spock in the 70s.....

Offline Tony Drago

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Re: Common core
« Reply #87 on: March 30, 2016, 03:29:46 PM »
Forget Common Core, teach Common Sense.  That seems to have been lost somewhere.

Mike
Amen on that one. Mike

Offline Steve Hines

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Re: Common core
« Reply #88 on: March 30, 2016, 05:37:33 PM »
Robert I was trying to be ironic, I hear all these talking point on here. Very few people on this forum have a individual thought of there own. Serge was the only one on this post who put in some thought in to how to make things better. You started this post, for your own agenda. The whole thing about CC is not about kids learning, it about teacher unions. Kids have allways been mostly liberal, and it will allways  be this way. As you know I have stop giving money to stunt hanger.
This is because of your post about the ama, and I will never buy anything from vendors that said things about it, that I did not like. I believe in free speech, and money now is speech.

We all know that you own this, and you can and will take thing down if you don't like what people say about you or other people you like. You started this one, so if it gets out of hand, you only have your self to blame.

Steve

Offline Steve Thompson

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Re: Common core
« Reply #89 on: March 30, 2016, 06:17:24 PM »
I have been following this topic trying to figure our just why, as an employer in a town with 50,000 college students, we can't find kids that can speak and write coherently or do fairly simple math; what I would consider high school level 30 years ago.  I know college professors that insist kids are not as smart as even ten years ago.  Something is responsible for that and I sure hope it changes.  These kids need to be able to pay for our social security in a few years.  (joke)

To be fair, I think Robert must believe in free speech to host this forum where even yahoos like me can post.

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Common core
« Reply #90 on: March 30, 2016, 06:48:36 PM »
As you know I have stop giving money to stunt hanger.
This is because of your post about the ama, and I will never buy anything from vendors that said things about it, that I did not like. I believe in free speech, and money now is speech.
Steve

I say something you don't approve of and I am against free speech? Too Funny Keep your dough and things will still be ok. Good luck.

Just can't make everybody happy.
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